Salty Rice
Member
So it started with MS.
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Why is HDR a thing now?
- Thread starter Anony
- Start date
From everything I know:
For game development, you're right that HDR was built into Half-Life Lost Coast/Source engine long ago. This is a software technique that is widely used now to simulate your eyes adjusting to light. But this is on the same brightness spectrum on a screen as before, it's just a lighting technique in games.
For HDR technology that is now getting built into TVs, it's increasing the intensity/spectrum of colors that a TV outputs. If you see it in real life it's definitely a difference you can notice and makes the TV picture much more vibrant.
Game developers are only now taking advantage of the latter by adapting to the new technology. The former could be accomplished on the same screen, it just was a software technique that didn't require extra TV technology.
For game development, you're right that HDR was built into Half-Life Lost Coast/Source engine long ago. This is a software technique that is widely used now to simulate your eyes adjusting to light. But this is on the same brightness spectrum on a screen as before, it's just a lighting technique in games.
For HDR technology that is now getting built into TVs, it's increasing the intensity/spectrum of colors that a TV outputs. If you see it in real life it's definitely a difference you can notice and makes the TV picture much more vibrant.
Game developers are only now taking advantage of the latter by adapting to the new technology. The former could be accomplished on the same screen, it just was a software technique that didn't require extra TV technology.
NeoRaider
Member
Fixed
OP, you opened a thread when you already knew the answer.
HDR lighting, as seen all the way back in Half Life 2 Lost Coast, is not the same as the HDR10 technology currently being pushed in TVs.
The "new" HDR10 is expanding the range of both contrast and colour displayed, and it's a hardware change, not just software.
As the name implies, it is about 10 bit panels, but just because your monitor is 10 bit doesn't mean it meets the rest of the HDR10 spec.
The "new" HDR10 is expanding the range of both contrast and colour displayed, and it's a hardware change, not just software.
As the name implies, it is about 10 bit panels, but just because your monitor is 10 bit doesn't mean it meets the rest of the HDR10 spec.
Nobody knows yet. There are no HDR 1080p displays on the market. How it works on PS4 remains a mystery until actual HDR content is available. As it stands, there is no way to test it.
I really REALLY hate this kind of reasoning as it suggests that any technological improvements are designed to "pull the wool" over the consumer's eyes and sell them stuff just for the sake of it.
Of course there is a business reason behind any of this, but that doesn't mean there isn't a genuine leap here. It's the first truly great addition to displays in quite some time, though, so I can see why people would be skeptical.
If you own an older TV, I urge you to go check out what is possible now. Things have improved dramatically. OLED is, of course, a game changer, but LCDs have also improved tremendously.
What is wrong with technology marching forward? Flat panels SUCKED for decades (for the most part) and we're finally overcoming some of their most serious limitations.
JordanN
Banned
This is the best example of HDR I've seen.
Look at the window in the right image and you can see the outside.
The software HDR you describe as being used in the Source engine and other games is AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THING than HDR in modern TV's. They are both trying to show High Dynamic Range, but they are fundamentally different technologies.
HDR in games has referred to the "exposure" of a scene dynamically changing in a similar way that the human eye can adapt to different light levels, so you can see a wider range of colors overall, but not at the same time. If you look at a shadowed area, your "vision" will adapt and get brighter so you can see details in that darker area, but brighter parts of the screen will get "over exposed" and blown out, so you lose those details. Then when you look at a brighter area things will get dimmer, so the bright area is in detail but the dark area goes to black.
HDR as it's referred to on PS4, Xbox One S and 4K TV's is showing a High Dynamic Range all at once, because the actual hardware can physically display a wider gamut of colors and brightness then was possible on older TV's. Whereas the software technique used in games would brighten or darken the scene, this newer HDR would be capable of showing the darkest and brightest parts of the entire scene all at once, without loss of detail. It wouldn't need to be "faked" like the software technique used in games. Going beyond simple brightness, it can also show more gradations of color, which means it can show more detail in regular scenes, or ,in the case of games, potentially revealing detail that has always been there in textures but was previously unable to be seen due to the limitations of the number of colors the TV's could actually display.
HDR in games has referred to the "exposure" of a scene dynamically changing in a similar way that the human eye can adapt to different light levels, so you can see a wider range of colors overall, but not at the same time. If you look at a shadowed area, your "vision" will adapt and get brighter so you can see details in that darker area, but brighter parts of the screen will get "over exposed" and blown out, so you lose those details. Then when you look at a brighter area things will get dimmer, so the bright area is in detail but the dark area goes to black.
HDR as it's referred to on PS4, Xbox One S and 4K TV's is showing a High Dynamic Range all at once, because the actual hardware can physically display a wider gamut of colors and brightness then was possible on older TV's. Whereas the software technique used in games would brighten or darken the scene, this newer HDR would be capable of showing the darkest and brightest parts of the entire scene all at once, without loss of detail. It wouldn't need to be "faked" like the software technique used in games. Going beyond simple brightness, it can also show more gradations of color, which means it can show more detail in regular scenes, or ,in the case of games, potentially revealing detail that has always been there in textures but was previously unable to be seen due to the limitations of the number of colors the TV's could actually display.
ambar_hitman
Member
PS4 already supports HDMI 2.0. It was shipped with that.
HDR doesn't require 4K. Issue is that currently only 4K TVs have HDR. Hopefully there will be 1080p TVs and monitors that will support HDR in future.
Zoloft Sonic
Member
It's this year's 3D TV.
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
The standard "what is HDR" image:
Of course, this is displayed on your non HDR monitor, so they have to play down the "non HDR" photo to show the comparison. But given the content I've seen in HDR, this is a fair comparison.
But the photo on the left doesn't even look better, let alone realistic. Looks fake and oversaturated like an HDR photo or an Instagram filter. Is that really what future TV tech is moving towards? : /
Contrast ratio isn't quite the right way of describing it. It's more about the range of brightness than the ratio. Any OLED display can be said to have infinite contrast ratio because you're dividing by zero, even if its brightest while is actually very dark. For it to actually be considered HDR the maximum brightness also needs to be high.
The problem is you can't accurately show off HDR when you have an image that's based in 8-bit colors being displayed on non-HDR monitor. It's like trying to show off what 144Hz+GSync looks like on a 60Hz screen, or IMAX surround sound on stereo speakers. The fake and oversaturated thing is just marketing guys trying to come up with something
NeoRaider
Member
This is the best example of HDR I've seen.
Look at the window in the right image and you can see the outside.
This is HDR in photography and doesn't have (almost) anything to do with HDR in TVs.
HDR starts when Sony says so.
potatohead
Member
It is a buzzword and marketing term. Big and necessary part of the sell.
To communicate a new feature, the prospective audience needs these marketing/buzzword terms to know what to look for.
But yes, it does make a difference too, and it is new technology that enables this.
Sectorseven
Member
Was display tech always this heavily pimped? I feel like back in the CRT days the most complicated it got was composite or s-video.
gamingPotato7
Member
No, your monitor does not output 10 bit color, so no HDR quality. It has 10 bit internal processor because videos can be 10 bit to shrink the size of the files. Since there is more color information it is possible to compress the video more without losing much quality and many videos are 10 bit or 12 for this reason. Doesn't mean they look better. To output HDR you need the source and the output to have this capability.
When are you guys getting Forza Horizon 3? Are you going to be able to check it out on the Xbox One S with a TV that supports HDR?
Sort of, I believe HDR Pro is 10 bit (This is the new normal standard) and Dolby Vision is 12 bit (This is a higher end standard), but your monitor would not have been fed a HDR signal.
HDR in these new TV's is also about brightness, allowing bright and dark elements to exist in the image simultaneously with higher maximum values, in addition to the expanded color range.
Games may or may not have had HDR calculations internally at some point in the engine pipeline but obviously in the mastering process SDR data is being calculated and used because that's what graphics cards were designed for and what all display technology was capable of and expected.
This is a pretty neat article talking about the work that's going in to Tomb Raiders potential HDR update for PC https://developer.nvidia.com/implementing-hdr-rise-tomb-raider
AudioEppa
Member
The standard "what is HDR" image:
Of course, this is displayed on your non HDR monitor, so they have to play down the "non HDR" photo to show the comparison. But given the content I've seen in HDR, this is a fair comparison.
Can I ask you a question?
For someone like me who has a 27" 1080p monitor. Would PS4 Pro still look impressive even without 4K HDR?
GifGafIsTheBestGaf
Member
because is the next big upgrade along 4K for tv manufacturers
Jonneh3003
Banned
Yes but as the first commenter pointed out it didn't spark like 20 topics on enthusiast sites like NeoGAF, Microsoft have a HDR machine out right now with games that take advantage of the feature coming shortly but it hasn't had the same impact on us. Most of us just didn't know what HDR really was until the PlayStation Meeting and it's a very hard thing to sell in the digital space.
potatohead
Member
This is the best example of HDR I've seen.
Look at the window in the right image and you can see the outside.
This is actually a terrible example, because in each image you can only see "half" of what is on the image. One you can see the inside, one you can see outside.
In HDR mode you would be able to see both at the same time without any issue.
The earlier image posted by someone else with the cut image showing HDR on one side and non-HDR (simulated of course) on the other is a better example.
Wishmaster92
Member
So if my plasma tv supports 10 or 12 bits of color it is somewhat hdr capable? It supports deep color and has a 30 bit mode if that helps.
Edit: It also has a 24,576 color gradation system
No
No, your panel might be able to able to receive 10/12bit material and perhaps even display in 10/12 bit (not likely) but not in the correct spec. Your colors would not display correct, but more noticable, your contrast and max brightness would be much, much lower.
No
Yes.
Some people shitting on HDR seem to have never actually seen it in real life. Fair enough for those that have seen it but don't like the saturation it provides, but I personally think it looks amazing. Definitely not a fluke feature like 3D in my book. It's a welcome enhancement to picture that does not require a huge extra development effort so I think this will be widely adopted in a few years.
hyperbolic. its nothing like 3D tv lol. actually has a greater impact on image quality vs 3D where you needed glasses, had different implementations of it on tvs etc. HDR is a big deal and will be more common as time goes on it definitely has its place vs 3D lol
NeoRaider
Member
You mean on 1080p monitor/TV? You will see benefits of higher resolution and effects/graphics even on 1080p resolution.
Would it look impressive is up to you to decide tho.
Jonneh3003
Banned
This is the best example of HDR I've seen.
Look at the window in the right image and you can see the outside.
It really is impossible to sell HDR on normal TV's. While this image looks impressive most of us are looking at it on normal HD TV's. If anything it just makes you impressed with what normal displays can show.
NO, no it is not.
That's why I take issue with attempts at making comparisons. When viewing photos like this on an SDR monitor, boosting contrast is the only way to demonstrate a difference...which isn't something most people will appreciate.
You simply have to see it with your own eyes to understand.
It's the type of thing where the luminescence of on screen objects can be translated more realistically to your display. The brightness of fire or a flash light contrasted against a darkened forest, for instance - HDR is able to deliver something much closer to what your eyes might see in that actual environment. It's not just about contrast, it's about the actual panel brightness and the ability to display EXTREMELY bright imagery AND extremely DARK imagery within the same scene without losing detail.
No and no.
Simply supporting 10 or 12 bit processing isn't enough.
Also, plasma technology cannot reach even a fraction of the brightness necessary to produce HDR.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
Not really. The TV industry has been trying to slowly push it for a while now. Sony and Microsoft are late to the party in that respect, but for me it's a game changer. I actually find it to be more impressive and beneficial to the visual quality of an image than 4k.
It's not a gimmick. If anything it's the least gimmicky new TV technology we've had in recent years (curved TV's *shudder* , 3D). 4K, with a much wider colour gamut, combined with HDR (extreme contrast and brightness) means we're getting images that simply look far more like real life than we've ever gotten before. That's a big deal. That's almost black and white to colour kind of a big deal.
You think it would be capable. But I don't know because supposedly the signal, the way it's encoded, only passes through hdmi 2.0 connections.
I think my receiver supports so called "deep color". My TV I am not totally sure. I think it's just 8-bit per channel.
Outside some camcorders I don't know too many things that supported deep color.
Yeah, super curious to that as well. They literally just pushed the update but said jack about any content for OG PS4.
Ehh, you will get a bump in image quality and detail (probably akin to setting your PC game from Medium w/ FXAA to High/Ultra with better AA/Downsampling) for supported titles but that's about it.
I doubt a lot of games will get a big upgrade to 60fps or similar.
Samurai G0SU
Member
kind of sad tbh. if we are enthusiasts, i'd think we all would take info from every company. not just from one when it says something..... reminds me of the apple situation now =/
Kenzodielocke
Banned
No, it's because they don't want 60fps.
Crazy. Did they miss countless threads about Xbox HDR all through July and August like this:
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?p=216871543
HDR Blu-ray is being shipped inside Xbox S, it's a gaming thing since MS announced full support from E3.
Xbox One S is just future proofing. You're right that there's not much in the next 6 months that will use it, but it's a good marketing hook for those that want a console that adopts the future direction of game.