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[guek]

Where have you been, he's been on point with the DBZ references in this thread. :lol

thanks you, thank you~



edit: worst top of page ever >_<

 

[wsippel]

I've been wondering about this for awhile, but how new are the CPU and GPU in the Vita? Both have been around for at least a year havent they?

Introduced in 2009.

 

[xtop]

PS Vita shows at least Sony is still interested in the bleeding edge.

what's bleeding edge about it?

 

[plagiarize]

Not really,

Any game made for the PS4/720 should easily be scalable down to the Wii U. Which was not the case for the Wii.

i don't know why people keep overlooking this.

i guess they'll keep on overlooking this until Wii U continues getting multiplatform support after the PS4 and 720 come out.

even if the PS4 and 720 are based on DX11 parts, there is little to nothing that those parts can do that 770 chipsets can't also do. it'll just be a matter of scaling things down enough that it runs on the Wii U. it can share the same engine, and tools and so forth. it conceivably would just need toned down shaders, geometry and texture sizes.

the API changes of DX11 were more about standardising things that were already possible (computing on the GPU and tesselation etc). that won't really be an issue with a fixed hardware design like the Wii U will have.

or to put it another way, does anyone think that UE4 won't run on DX10 parts?

as i understand things, unless DX12 is out, won't UE4 HAVE to run on DX10 parts even if it's an entirely DX11 engine?

 

[Clevinger]

what's bleeding edge about it?

It's basically a handheld PS3. Compared to the 3DS, it's bleeding edge for a handheld.

 

[Mr_Brit]

It's basically a handheld PS3. Compared to the 3DS, it's bleeding edge for a handheld.

Lol, no it's not. Not even close.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Also:

NES - Ten-year-old CPU, PPU uses around four-year-old tech
Genesis - Ten-year-old CPU, recycled seven-year-old VDC
SNES - Seven-year-old CPU, custom PPU based on five-year-old tech
Saturn - CPU uses five-year-old tech, same with VPU
PlayStation - CPU uses seven-year-old tech, 3D relies on CPU, graphics processor about the same
N64 - CPU uses five-year-old tech, same with graphics/sound processor
Dreamcast - CPU development of eight-year-old tech, PVR uses three-year-old tech
PS2 - CPU based on five-year-old tech, Graphics Synthesizer completely new
GCN - CPU based on four-year-old tech, Flipper completely new
Xbox - CPU based on two-year-old tech, XGPU completely new
Xbox 360 - CPU completely new, GPU completely new
PS3 - CPU completely new, GPU completely new
Wii - CPU based on nine-year-old tech, Hollywood based on five-year-old tech

The PS360 aren't the rule, they're the aberrations. Looks like they attempted to push Nintendo out of the market, and got sidestepped. There's no reason to believe that they'll push for the bleeding edge next generation.

Considering that the last two genterations of Nvidia and ATI/AMD cards have mostly been refinements in efficiency more than giant leaps forward in visual capability what would MS and Sony be left to do if they wanted to launch consoles in the next couple years magnitudes more powerful than the Wii U? Launch with 2012/early 2013 GPU tech?

 

[OMT]

What? The 360 CPU is hardly new; it's a PowerPC derivative. It's custom made, but you can't possibly say that it's new technology. Also, RSX is also pretty much not what you would call new. It's essentially a modified NV47 GPU. The only new, cutting-edge parts this gen are Cell and Xenos.

Broadway and Cell are also PowerPC derivatives. Xenon and Cell are essentially cousins, each constituting a significant departure from the development of the rest of the PowerPC line (Xenon being the gimped, undeveloped version). That's why I'm OK with calling them both completely new for 2005-6. RSX and NV47 developed concurrently with one another, which is also why I'm OK with calling it completely new (for the time).

The point is that the console drove the development of the hardware, rather than existing hardware determining the nature of the console.

 

[Jerk]

It's basically a handheld PS3. Compared to the 3DS, it's bleeding edge for a handheld.

Get your eyes checked.

Vita looks significantly better than 3DS, but it is by no means bleeding edge.

Ha.

 

[Krowley]

i don't know why people keep overlooking this.

i guess they'll keep on overlooking this until Wii U continues getting multiplatform support after the PS4 and 720 come out.

even if the PS4 and 720 are based on DX11 parts, there is little to nothing that those parts can do that 770 chipsets can't also do. it'll just be a matter of scaling things down enough that it runs on the Wii U. it can share the same engine, and tools and so forth. it conceivably would just need toned down shaders, geometry and texture sizes.

the API changes of DX11 were more about standardising things that were already possible (computing on the GPU and tesselation etc). that won't really be an issue with a fixed hardware design like the Wii U will have.

If this is true, then coming out with the first console of the next-gen could be a big advantage for Nintendo. If everything is going to be scaled anyway when it comes to 3rd party support, getting a head start on install-base could be huge.

It could be very easy for nintendo to end up in a PS2 vs GCN and Xbox type of scenario, especially if they can get a major system seller out in the early-going.

 

[lwilliams3]

It seems that we are coming full circle. The 01net and IGN posted that Wii U's GPU was based on that series back in April

 

[Vinci]

It's basically a handheld PS3. Compared to the 3DS, it's bleeding edge for a handheld.

Good god, it's no wonder people like you always think Nintendo is a technological midget. Are you joking?

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

what's bleeding edge about it?

Quadcore mobile processor. Tablets and cellphones are just now getting into the dualcore market with dual-core.

Good god, it's no wonder people like you always think Nintendo is a technological midget. Are you joking?

They both cost the same for performance a generation apart. Blame Nintendo for that perception of performance of disparity.

 

[Mr_Brit]

Considering that the last two genterations of Nvidia and ATI/AMD cards have mostly been refinements in efficiency more than giant leaps forward in visual capability what would MS and Sony be left to do if they wanted to launch consoles in the next couple years magnitudes more powerful than the Wii U? Launch with 2012/early 2013 GPU tech?

Nope. Late 2013 tech is when we are going to get a massive increase in computational power. That is when nvidia launch their new Maxwell architecture and we get the 20nm production process. If Sony/MS launch in 2013 at 20nm then we'd likely get something at least GTX580 power as with that production process its total TDP would be near 100W.

 

[Lonely1]

Quadcore mobile processor. Tablets and cellphones are just now getting into the dualcore market with dual-core.

By the time it hit the market. Quad core tablets are going to be in the market for a few months.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Quadcore mobile processor. Tablets and cellphones are just now getting into the dualcore market with dual-core.




They both cost the same for performance a generation apart. Blame Nintendo for that perception of performance of disparity.

Quadcore tablets are coming this summer and the quadcore phones are due by next holiday season.

Edit:beaten

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

By the times it hit the market. Quad core tablets are going to be in the market for a few months.

Fair enough, but it pretty much means Vita isn't that behind the curve either.

 

[plagiarize]

If this is true, then coming out with the first console of the next-gen could be a big advantage for Nintendo. If everything is going to be scaled anyway when it comes to 3rd party support, getting a head start on install-base could be huge.

right. architecture is as big a reason as power gap as to why the Wii didn't get much third party support.

if the Wii could have run UE3 it would have been much easier to support multiplatform releases on the system, but it didn't. not because it didn't have enough FLOPS or polygons per second or whatever, but because it's architecture didn't support certain important feature sets that UE3 needed.

basing the Wii U on a direct X 10.1 part pretty much prevents this from happening. DX 11 (at least on PCs) works on DX 10, DX10.1 and DX11 cards. it just disables a few features on the older parts like tesselation.

however, this ATI 10.1 chipset had a tesselator, it just had to be specifically coded for. that's an issue in the PC world where everyone has different hardware, but on Wii U it's not nearly as big a deal. even if the multiplat games don't use tesselation, it'd hardly be a deal breaker.

the power gap will be important, but it really is only half of the reason Wii didn't get multiplatform support.

if devs can use the same exact tools and run the same engines on the Wii U, even with a similar power gap it's going to see much better multiplatform support, because downporting to it will be a lot cheaper than it was this time around.

 

[heringer]

It's certainly funny that some of the people claiming that PS4/720 graphics will destroy WiiU's are the same people saying Vita is basically a portable PS3.

 

[duk]

It's basically a handheld PS3. Compared to the 3DS, it's bleeding edge for a handheld.

lol ha! bleeding edge means something different

 

[Jocchan]

And probably at least three times the air flow.

Yup.

 

[apana]

SMH I was way ahead of you guys on DBZ connection to hardware power.

 

[Dennis]

Nope. Late 2013 tech is when we are going to get a massive increase in computational power. That is when nvidia launch their new Maxwell architecture and we get the 20nm production process. If Sony/MS launch in 2013 at 20nm then we'd likely get something at least GTX580 power as with that production process its total TDP would be near 100W.

That is not going to happen.

Late 2013 release of Maxwell (more like sometime 2014 knowing Nvidia) is too late for PS4/720.

And talk of "...at least GTX580 power...." is pie in the sky.

Look, I wish that nextgen would release with Tri-SLI GTX680 but lets be realistic, times have changed.

 

[ntropy]

Nope. Late 2013 tech is when we are going to get a massive increase in computational power. That is when nvidia launch their new Maxwell architecture and we get the 20nm production process. If Sony/MS launch in 2013 at 20nm then we'd likely get something at least GTX580 power as with that production process its total TDP would be near 100W.

lol 20nm BELIEVE

 

[OMT]

Considering that the last two genterations of Nvidia and ATI/AMD cards have mostly been refinements in efficiency more than giant leaps forward in visual capability what would MS and Sony be left to do if they wanted to launch consoles in the next couple years magnitudes more powerful than the Wii U? Launch with 2012/early 2013 GPU tech?

They probably won't. I expect each company's strategy to diverge significantly in the next generation. Sony's going to continue pursuing all-in-one home media functionality. Microsoft, not having to worry about Japanese demand, will keep developing Kinect, then put out a system that's marginally better than the Wii U (though with gaudy statistics), and potentially drawing a profit from the start. Microsoft will go in that direction because with its online expertise, it understands that the razor-blade model isn't going to keep up. Even if the technology isn't 2015 tech in 2013, people will stay loyal, if only because of the success of Xbox Live.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Nope. Late 2013 tech is when we are going to get a massive increase in computational power. That is when nvidia launch their new Maxwell architecture and we get the 20nm production process. If Sony/MS launch in 2013 at 20nm then we'd likely get something at least GTX580 power as with that production process its total TDP would be near 100W.

It's kind of funny that while everyone has been arguing back and forth about how weak or powerful the U is if the rumors floating around are acurate and the chart I quoted is acurate the Nintendo is actually following the typical path to a true next gen console, not just a next gen Wii.

MS and Sony would have to release their new consoles with mini-nuclear reactors to make their systems 10 times as powerful like most are prediciting.

 

[Trunchisholm]

Broadway and Cell are also PowerPC derivatives. Xenon and Cell are essentially cousins, each constituting a significant departure from the development of the rest of the PowerPC line (Xenon being the gimped, undeveloped version). That's why I'm OK with calling them both completely new for 2005-6. RSX and NV47 developed concurrently with one another, which is also why I'm OK with calling it completely new (for the time).

The point is that the console drove the development of the hardware, rather than existing hardware determining the nature of the console.

It's fair to say that, while both are partly based on the PowerPC architecture, the whole concept behind the SPUs, arguably, what sets Cell apart from other CPUs, was fairly new; it is only the PPU that is structurally similar to the PPC. The same can't be said of Xenon, which was largely a set of modified (simplified mostly) PowerPC cores. Also, by time the PS3 was released in Japan, NV47 was already a year and a half old. I don't think it's fair to brand either Xenon or RSX as new designs.

 

[cyberheater]

It's certainly funny that some of the people claiming that PS4/720 graphics will destroy WiiU's are the same people saying Vita is basically a portable PS3.

Well, from a graphics point of view, it's pretty close. I don't know how you could argue otherwise.

 

[-bakalhau-]

I think the 4830 would be the sweetest spot in terms of cost/performance. It's not that far behind the 4850 either. A 4830 today must be extremely cheap.

 

[jay]

Also:

NES - Ten-year-old CPU, PPU uses around four-year-old tech
Genesis - Ten-year-old CPU, recycled seven-year-old VDC
SNES - Seven-year-old CPU, custom PPU based on five-year-old tech
Saturn - CPU uses five-year-old tech, same with VPU
PlayStation - CPU uses seven-year-old tech, 3D relies on CPU, graphics processor about the same
N64 - CPU uses five-year-old tech, same with graphics/sound processor
Dreamcast - CPU development of eight-year-old tech, PVR uses three-year-old tech
PS2 - CPU based on five-year-old tech, Graphics Synthesizer completely new
GCN - CPU based on four-year-old tech, Flipper completely new
Xbox - CPU based on two-year-old tech, XGPU completely new
Xbox 360 - CPU completely new, GPU completely new
PS3 - CPU completely new, GPU completely new
Wii - CPU based on nine-year-old tech, Hollywood based on five-year-old tech

The PS360 aren't the rule, they're the aberrations. Looks like they attempted to push Nintendo out of the market, and got sidestepped. There's no reason to believe that they'll push for the bleeding edge next generation.

Interesting, thanks. Now if only I remember who kept arguing with me that Sony always made the same cutting edge technology and that the PS3 was not an aberration. Gofreak, likely, but a few other usual Sony guys.

 

[brotkasten]

Engadget's reporting really sucks. I expect more and better from them.

They don't even get the name of the chip right, it's RV770, not R770.

This sucks because we still know almost nothing.

Don't expect anything from Engadget anymore. The important and good people left few months ago. You can find them here: www.thisismynext.com

 

[duk]

This could mean anything from a decent chip to pretty good chip as RV770 is the foundation for a number of chips right?

 

[Trunchisholm]

Well, from a graphics point of view, it's pretty close. I don't know how you could argue otherwise.

No, it's not. It gets away with lesser hardware because its pixel density allows it to have perceptually great IQ, but it is technically a far cry from the PS3 specifications.

 

[WrikaWrek]

Not even up to par to my pc?

Damn. Interest went down.

 

[Plinko]

Well, from a graphics point of view, it's pretty close. I don't know how you could argue otherwise.

I preordered my Vita the moment it was available on Amazon. I cannot wait for that portable.

That said, it's nowhere near a PS3 graphics-wise. I'll argue otherwise.

 

[Trunchisholm]

This could mean anything from a decent chip to pretty good chip as RV770 is the foundation for a number of chips right?

This could mean anything, period.

 

[hellclerk]

I agree we're missing something here. If the people that claimed 50% more were doing it by offhand measures or were inexperienced folks looking at something going on off screen, I would back this more, but fact of the matter is, these are devs working on the system stating this. It seems as though there are a few possible conclusions here:

- If this is right, then Nintendo nerfed the potential of the GPU somewhat. (For what purpose though?)

- If the dev kits weren't finalized and what was shown at E3 more for the sake of showing something running than running on the absolute final hardware with finalized clocks, RAM amounts and the like (since every other bit of hardware has to be locked down at this point), then we could be in for a surprise next year when the system comes out.

- There is also the possibility that another chip in the family was used and tweaked to Nintendo's design goal from the R700 series. The issue here is whether or not they belong to what was the highest end of the 700 chip series (4830, 4850, 4870), the performanceower sweetheart (RV740 aka 4770) or the rest of the family which goes from 360x2 to barely functioning 360.

Well here's the thing: the "50%" figure is third hand information at best. First there's Nintendo handing out lowballed dev units to see what they can do with the architecture, then there's the developers giving information to financial and market analysts (NOT tech analysts) who may or may not have any idea of what to look for in the information in the first place, and then it was put upon the gaming enthusiast media which has been known to be less than mature about these sorts of things. The context of everything behind the 50% number is being filtered through a giant game of game industry telephone. I trust it about as much as I trust every other rumor, which is to say not at all, though the R700 rumors tend to be more prevalent, so I'd put just a bit more stock into those. I have my thoughts on what Nintendo would probably do with an R700 chip to reduce power draw (particularly shrinking the die to 40nm processes, maybe even 28nm if ATI has them down by then with the HD7000 series), but mostly, it's useless speculation. Just like everything else regarding the power of the system.

 

[Zombie James]

That is not going to happen.

Late 2013 release of Maxwell (more like sometime 2014 knowing Nvidia) is too late for PS4/720.

And talk of "...at least GTX580 power...." is pie in the sky.

Look, I wish that nextgen would release with Tri-SLI GTX680 but lets be realistic, times have changed.

Why? By the time fall 2012 comes around (I don't think either Microsoft or Sony will launch a new system by then, anyways) the 580 will be 2 years old.

 

[Dennis]

Why? By the time fall 2012 comes around (I don't think either Microsoft or Sony will launch a new system by then, anyways) the 580 will be 2 years old.

Still way too expensive, hot and power-hungry for a home console at that time.

No more RROD from MS and no more $599 from Sony is what you should expect.

 

[Jin34]

Well here's the thing: the "50%" figure is third hand information at best. First there's Nintendo handing out lowballed dev units to see what they can do with the architecture, then there's the developers giving information to financial and market analysts (NOT tech analysts) who may or may not have any idea of what to look for in the information in the first place, and then it was put upon the gaming enthusiast media which has been known to be less than mature about these sorts of things. The context of everything behind the 50% number is being filtered through a giant game of game industry telephone. I trust it about as much as I trust every other rumor, which is to say not at all, though the R700 rumors tend to be more prevalent, so I'd put just a bit more stock into those. I have my thoughts on what Nintendo would probably do with an R700 chip to reduce power draw (particularly shrinking the die to 32nm processes, maybe even 28nm if ATI has them down yet), but mostly, it's useless speculation. Just like everything else regarding the power of the system.

There's also the possibility that the 50% more powerful is merely in reference to the CPU. Also in the Ubi roundtable they gave the vague comment about how some things will be improved spec wise. So yeah we still don't have it pinned down to where we can make an accurate guess and probably won't until Nintendo releases final dev kits and we get leaks on those.

 

[OMT]

Submitted for your approval, a Dragon Ball list:

NES: Master Roshi
Genesis: Piccolo Daimayo
SNES: Late-Dragon Ball Goku
3DO: Raditz
Saturn: Nappa
PSX: Goku vs. the Saiyans
N64: Vegeta vs. the Z Warriors
Dreamcast: Freeza
PS2: Super Saiyan Goku
GCN: Future Trunks
Xbox: Super Saiyan Vegeta
360: Ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta
PS3: Perfect Cell
Wii: Super Saiyan Gohan
Wii U: Super Saiyan 2 Gohan

 

[plagiarize]

Not even up to par to my pc?

Damn. Interest went down.

not that this is what will happen, but imagine if every game was targetted at your PC, and your PC didn't have to run an OS, and DX9 wasn't the baseline for the games, but DX10.1 was, and imagine if every game used every feature your graphics card had instead of just the most common ones.

the games on your PC would look substantially better than they do today.

 

[Sianos]

One other thing is that you have to give the consoles time to be mass produced.

You can't have 2013 tech in a console due to be released during 2013, and still have a reasonable amount manufactured, or at least I don't think it'd be reasonable.

 

[OMT]

It's fair to say that, while both are partly based on the PowerPC architecture, the whole concept behind the SPUs, arguably, what sets Cell apart from other CPUs, was fairly new; it is only the PPU that is structurally similar to the PPC. The same can't be said of Xenon, which was largely a set of modified (simplified mostly) PowerPC cores. Also, by time the PS3 was released in Japan, NV47 was already a year and a half old. I don't think it's fair to brand either Xenon or RSX as new designs.

You make a solid point, and I'll update my posting to reflect your arguments. Thanks.

 

[antonz]

Honestly unless its the 4850 or 4870 the R770s would be a poor choice to build from. The R740 4770 outperforms the 4830 and 4730 and has a smaller power usage

 

[Kenka]

Not even up to par to my pc?

Damn. Interest went down.

PS4 won't be either. Modern GPUs draw too much power. It all comes down to how deals the best with ATi at this point. Unless Fermi gets shrinked down, there might even not be the equivalent of a 560Ti in the bowels of the PS4. At this point, you may very well bank on cloud computing if you want a real jump in image quality.

Honestly unless its the 4850 or 4870 the R770s would be a poor choice to build from. The R740 4770 outperforms the 4830 and 4730 and has a smaller power usage

Do you have a real source about this ? As said earlier, the 4870 is the only graphics card in the line-up that contains GDDR5 memory. If we do get GDDR5 besides the WiiU GPU and if the RV770 rumour holds true, then we'll have some pretty decent beast inside.

Power 7 + 4870 is pretty much a lot more powerful than the HD twins. It beats them hands down and eats them for breakfast. Throw there some decent amount of RAM and you get a healthy raw power machine to work with. Add to the mix some good middleware to ease development, a robust online plateform and you'll get a pass to cater on the third-parties.

 

[hellclerk]

There's also the possibility that the 50% more powerful is merely in reference to the CPU. Also in the Ubi roundtable they gave the vague comment about how some things will be improved spec wise. So yeah we still don't have it pinned down to where we can make an accurate guess and probably won't until Nintendo releases final dev kits and we get leaks on those.

The 50% more powerful could just reference the boner that the devs got from being able to work on the hardware for all we know. Ubisoft was basically tied down and gagged by Nintendo on the spec and hardware portion, so they were forced to focus on the gameplay. You could see it in their eyes that they were thinking "we know! we know! Fuck, but we're not allowed to say!"

 

[Jin34]

Why? By the time fall 2012 comes around (I don't think either Microsoft or Sony will launch a new system by then, anyways) the 580 will be 2 years old.

That card is a huge power hungry card, probably uses more power by itself than a launch Xbox 360. Graphic cards have become much larger and much more power hungry and require exotic cooling solutions to keep them from becoming absurdly hot (some would say they still get too hot). The only thing they have improved in this regard is the power consumption when not gaming, but that's mostly irrelevant when talking about video game consoles.

 

[plagiarize]

Honestly unless its the 4850 or 4870 the R770s would be a poor choice to build from. The R740 4770 outperforms the 4830 and 4730 and has a smaller power usage

is it cheaper and does it have an identical featureset?

at this point, i think we can only really focus on feature set, as without clock speeds et al, we can't discuss much else... but i do think the feature set is a very interesting thing to know, and very encouraging for looking at the sort of support the Wii U is likely to receive, specifically after the PS4 and 720 come out.

 

[Lord Error]

Quadcore tablets are coming this summer and the quadcore phones are due by next holiday season.

Edit:beaten

I doubt they will have the same GPU specs, but even if they do, I don't see how releasing something that's the best tech possible for the moment, is anything to scoff at.

Get your eyes checked.
Vita looks significantly better than 3DS, but it is by no means bleeding edge.

What mobile device outputs better looking graphics?