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Wii U sales compared to PS2, 360, PS3, & Wii - Not doomed

And to reiterate my point; the PS3 wasn't a Neo-Geo or a 3DO.
It wasn't 'a console' on just it's own merits, and picked up sales from more audiences than just day one console purchasers.

The 'oh, but you can't compare PS3 because it was expensive' argument is not a compelling one, because at least some of that audience are not as price conscious as traditional day one console buyers.
Even if all the PS3's at launch were bought as BluRay players, I really don't see how that provides a more favorable comparison?

"Look, the Wii U is selling better than an expensive high-end niche consumer device in 2006?"

You can compare it to the PS3. It just doesn't suddenly make the Wii U a super fantastic launch. Because the PS3 launch was crap.
 

Kosma

Banned
How is WiiU launch better then PS3's?

Its 33% cheaper the then the PS3 was in 2006 ( not even factoring inflation in at 3% a year ) and it sold worse in december, the xmas month.
 
How is WiiU launch better then PS3's?

Its 33% cheaper the then the PS3 was in 2006 ( not even factoring inflation in) and it sold worse in december, the xmas month.

The case is that the November + December numbers are better, that's all. It's a really bad argument when you're trying to spin away "poor launch" analysis with "better than PS3" rhetoric.
 

B.O.O.M

Member
I think it won't hit 200k in January. The problem is not the current overall sales, but how December sales suggest that word of mouth just isn't happening or is bad.



Eh... I don't think it will be that much of a disaster, 160-170 is my prediction

:p so just 10k more will change the status from disaster to not that much of a disaster?

For the record I expect it to hit 200k
 
nobody says 'oh, but you can't compare PS3 because it was expensive'. The argument is "why would you want to compare it to that." The PS3 stateside isn't a high bar. Why would you want to use that as your metric for success? .

You can compare it to the PS3. It just doesn't suddenly make the Wii U a super fantastic launch. Because the PS3 launch was crap.

I'm not claiming the WiiU is a success.

I'm saying that all things considered, I think PS3 number comparisons are fair, as is public perception of the WiiU currently compared to the PS3 at the time amongst gaming circles.

EDIT:
Some people have a real conceptual problem with stating that something can not be a failure but simultaneously not believeing something is a success I guess
 

Kosma

Banned
The case is that the November + December numbers are better, that's all. It's a really bad argument when you're trying to spin away "poor launch" analysis with "better than PS3" rhetoric.

So it sold slightly more over two months at a 40% lower pricepoint. Congrats wii u.

Great success /borat
 

Striek

Member
Wii U isn't doomed, but it has had a really bad start. Key difference.

Its fun to compare it to the 360/PS3 launches are completely ignore context (360 sold out, PS3 called a failure at launch anyway and more sold out than Wii U) though.
 

evangd007

Member
I am a relentless Nintendo fan. I purchase every Nintendo system at launch. I purchased the 3DS at launch (and I love it). I purchased the Wii U at launch (and I really do like it). I have earned and gone through a bazillion Club Nintendo points, and I get Elite status every year. I even love NSMB2 and NSMBU, despite everyone telling me that I shouldn't. I cannot wait for Animal Crossing.

But I really, really believe that from a *business* standpoint -- not necessarily from a games-I-want-to-play standpoint -- the Wii U is going to be a cataclysmic disaster. I think it may be truly, truly awful for the company. I think that within a year we will be looking at a badly out-dated and out-featured console with nearly zero third-party support and almost no energy from the traditional gaming community. And, given the way that pop phenomena work, the emergence of iOS and Android gaming, and the way that the Wii's lifecycle went, I think that it is exceptionally improbable that the Wii U manages to (re)capture the attention of so-called "casual" gamers. I think we will see historically low numbers for a Nintendo console proportional to the current gaming market size, and perhaps even in absolute terms.

I just do not see *any* reason to believe that Nintendo will be able to build the kind of momentum that would be required in order for the system to be truly successful. Many people are saying what amounts to "if you look at historical trends, there is no reason to believe that these numbers mean doom". That may be true. But this overlooks two factors. First, what counts is not just the numbers but rather the numbers in context. The context, as far as I am concerned, is staggering disinterest. Two, it strikes me that the relevant consideration is not whether there is anything that in-principle rules out the Wii U's success, but rather whether we have any positive reason to believe that the Wii U will be a success. I can accept that nothing rules out the possibility of the Wii U succeeding, but I see absolutely nothing indicating that it is likely to succeed.

To be clear, nothing will stop me from loving the system. I'm sure that I will play and love Mario Galaxy 3 (or whatever), Mario Kart, Metroid, Zelda, Smash Bros., Animal Crossing, Fire Emblem, and so on, and so on. I'm gonna have a hell of a good time with the Wii U. Absolutely. But I very much believe that from a business standpoint it'll be a staggering failure.

I think "staggering failure" is a bit much. The Virtual Boy was a staggering failure. The Vita may end up being a staggering failure. If the Wii U ends up a failure, it'd be somewhere in the Gamecube/N64 range.
 
I'm not claiming the WiiU is a success.

I'm saying that all things considered, I think PS3 number comparisons are fair, as is public perception of the WiiU currently compared to the PS3 at the time amongst gaming circles.

Again, nobody is arguing that it's unfair to make the comparison. The argument that people are making is just that it seems like a rather hollow victory to trumpet beating PS3 launch numbers as indicative of anything meaningful.
 

jeremy1456

Junior Member
I can't wait to see the threads for "Xbox 720 Doomed!" or "PS4 Doomed!" if their numbers don't meet people's expectations. 2013 holiday is going to be good.

Those aren't Nintendo consoles and therefore there will be few to no 'doomed' threads. In the case of Sony, if they sell half as much as the Wii U managed at launch it will be 'incredible' and there will be a few hundred threads about it weekly.

I take it you haven't been here to long.
 
EDIT:
Some people have a real conceptual problem with stating that something can not be a failure but simultaneously not believeing something is a success I guess

Or, I might argue, some people are really insistent on making semantic-based, narrow arguments that nobody cares about.

"On a scale of 1 - 10, how would you rate the launch?"

"Well, I'd say not good. If I had to pick a number, I guess I'd say a 4, but this seems beside the point."

"Nonsense! It's at least a 5!"
 

Juken

Member
Those aren't Nintendo consoles and therefore there will be few to no 'doomed' threads. In the case of Sony, if they sell half as much as the Wii U managed at launch it will be 'incredible' and there will be a few hundred threads about it weekly.

I take it you haven't been here to long.

You don't remember the PS3 or 360 launches very well, then.
 
You don't remember the PS3 or 360 launches very well, then.

I do, Juken. They were both beloved by everybody because they weren't Nintendo machines. I mean, just look at the Vita. For crying out loud, won't somebody say something bad about how poorly it's doing? It's like nobody cares at all!

I remember there being more spin here than in a tornado. For the PS3 launch, at least.

There's something ironic about this post, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
 

But people are saying that in this very topic, and also arguing that the PS3 numbers 'shouldn't count' for comparison purposes, because it was expensive which you also said nobody was arguing.

There are also people talking about the WiiU like it is the worst hardware launch in history, which is pretty much the reason this topic exists, to try and provide some historical perspective.

As a console, I think the WiiU currently has had a stronger launch than the PS3 did, and it is not unfair or pointless to compare those numbers.
 

jeremy1456

Junior Member
Still doesn't change the fact that the Wii U's outlook is pretty bad.

It really isn't though.

All they have to do is release a new Mario Kart or Smash Bros. by the end of the year. Literally is all it would take.

When the thing starts taking off I assume you'll be first in line with the 'holy shit how did Nintendo ever make a comeback?' comments, and it will be stupid because everyone forgets how huge Nintendo's staple of franchises is.

It's the GAF Nintendo console cycle.
 
That shitty fanboyish incantation of DOOMED is an incredibly annoying strawman made to silence any kind of negative outlook.

My memory must really be hazy because I'd swear 6 months ago, there was a narrative where:
- it would be markedly more powerful than current gen. Particularly, multiplats would be something to look forward to. 1080p wasn't off the table.
- Nintendo would work its product marketing magic again and it would fly off the shelves.
- Third parties would come back in droves to usher in a new age of love between Nintendo and hardcore gamers.

Since launch I've seen stuff to the extent of:
- multiplats performing at best as well as current consoles was to be expected and isn't unheard of.
- nobody expected Nintendo to catch lightning in a bottle twice. Being on par with the PS3 launch is satisfying.
- there's obviously a third party conundrum Nintendo couldn't break out of.

Honestly, it looks like a fuckup of a launch and a console at this point. It's not the most terrible thing ever or doomed but it isn't anything to write home about either. I guess time will tell how things go from there but another ambassador program wouldn't surprise me.


And to reiterate my point; the PS3 wasn't a Neo-Geo or a 3DO.
It wasn't 'a console' on just it's own merits, and picked up sales from more audiences than just day one console purchasers.

The 'oh, but you can't compare PS3 because it was expensive' argument is not a compelling one, because at least some of that audience are not as price conscious as traditional day one console buyers.
it was as much a console on its own merits as WiiU is. That launch was and is still regarded as an utter failure and it should totally be used as a benchmark for underperforming in console launches. Performing in the same ballpark is not something any console maker marketing or sales executive would look forward to.
 

Nekofrog

Banned
It really isn't though.

All they have to do is release a new Mario Kart or Smash Bros. by the end of the year. Literally is all it would take.

When the thing starts taking off I assume you'll be first in line with the 'holy shit how did Nintendo ever make a comeback?' comments, and it will be stupid because everyone forgets how huge Nintendo's staple of franchises is.

It's the GAF Nintendo console cycle.

Your argument sounds dangerously close to the old PS3 "wait til x". MK and Smash Bros is not enough to turn around an entire systems fortunes.
 

jeremy1456

Junior Member
Why do people think this? "Why, I remember when the Gamecube had Brawl and Double Dash and soared to meteoric heights."

The franchises had a new surge of popularity last gen.

That's like me saying 'Call of Duty was released on the N-Gage and that died so that's proof that the series doesn't sell at all.' Of course, the difference here is I'm only pretending to be stupid.
 

jeremy1456

Junior Member
Your argument sounds dangerously close to the old PS3 "wait til x". MK and Smash Bros is not enough to turn around an entire systems fortunes.

Or like when the 3DS released and then the popular releases actually sold well.

Of course your argument makes less sense so let's go with that.
 
Your argument sounds dangerously close to the old PS3 "wait til x". MK and Smash Bros is not enough to turn around an entire systems fortunes.

Yeah, getting these games out for the holiday would be a big step in the right direction, but I don't understand why they are just considered money in the bank. They'll sell well, no doubt. And I'm sure they'd move some hardware. But the idea that Nintendo's big franchises spell automatic mass market success are not backed up by the existence of the Gamecube.
 

netBuff

Member
The franchises had a new surge of popularity last gen.

With how much Playstation All-Stars is selling, I'm not convinced Smash Bros. is any kind of system seller.

And Mario Kart has been getting very stale for a while now, that's not the kind of title generating much excitement.
 
My memory must really be hazy because I'd swear 6 months ago, there was a narrative where:
- it would be markedly more powerful than current gen. Particularly, multiplats would be something to look forward to. 1080p wasn't off the table.
- Nintendo would work its product marketing magic again and it would fly off the shelves.
- Third parties would come back in droves to usher in a new age of love between Nintendo and hardcore gamers.

It must be, because six months ago there were topics questioning if it would even be 'on par' with the HD consoles and that it wouldn't be getting FIFA or CoD.
 

Nekofrog

Banned
Or like when the 3DS released and then the popular releases actually sold well.

Of course your argument makes less sense so let's go with that.

They're not going to be system sellers. The Nintendo faithful already have their systems.

But if you want to take the route of being obtuse, whatever dude.
 
They also didn't have a direct competitor come out 12-14 months after that blew their systems away in terms of system power, 3rd party participation and gamer mindshare. The PS2 and 360 had time to grow, time to get 3rd parties to learn the system hardware and pump out some crazy shit... The Wii U doesn't have the luxury of time. If either the PS4 or Xbox 3 come out this fall they will be at the forefront of the conversation, not the Wii U. What crystal ball am I using? It's called common sense.

I'm with you! They definitely have their work cut out for them, no question about it. But let's be truthful -- there's no way Nintendo couldn't have seen this coming for a long time now. If Fall 2013 is a foregone conclusion, then they may as well just quit right now and pack it in. Obviously, they've planned Wii U to be relevant for the next 5+ years. You could argue that's just arrogance or ignorance on Nintendo's part, and maybe that's true, but the fact remains that they still have to figure out a way to be sucessful. How do they compete against the next Microsoft and Sony consoles? It may not be as unrealistic of a task as it seems on first look.

First, what do they have going for them? Let's assume that the PS4 and/or 720 launch this fall. Nintendo will be working with a potentially big price advantage, plenty of hardware in stock, an established library and an established userbase, all a byproduct of the year head start. Does this alone quell demand for the new consoles? Of course not. But these advantages, plus a strong library of compelling exclusive software, could provide a good reason to consider the Wii U as a must-own console in addition to a PS4 or 720. In other words, if I'm a 360 and/or PS3 owner who liked those systems for most of this generation, and want to get the next iteration of these platforms, why do I want a Wii U? What compels me to go buy one?

Because barring Nintendo catching lightning-in-a-bottle again with a Wii Sports or Brain Age equivalent that makes the Wii U a must-have product overnight, Nintendo's best approach for success this gen is going to be as a complement to the competitors' systems, not an alternative. Nintendo needs games, but let's face it: they aren't going to get 360/PS3/PC ports, and they aren't going to get 720/PS4/PC downports.

(As a side note, it's funny in a way to still see posts in threads about new or upcoming 360/PS3/PC titles, wondering "Where is the Wii U version? No excuse anymore." Of course there is -- they aren't going to sell!)

Nintendo needs a strong late-2013-through-2014 lineup of games, but assuming that the early trends continue and they don't get ports of the lion's share of 2013-14 360/PS3 games, and also see as few "good" downports as the Wii got, they aren't going to get by without a damn good exclusive lineup. And I don't just mean the usual first party suspects, because if you like Zelda and Mario and company, Nintendo doesn't need to worry about you not buying a Wii U.

What does it all mean? It may mean that Bayonetta 2 has to be the tip of the iceberg, and just the start of Nintendo bringing over a number of hardcore 3rd party exclusives . It may mean that Retro Studios needs to be working on something quite different than Donkey Kong.

I'm certainly not boldly claiming that Nintendo is going to have the best holiday lineup ever with Half Life 3, Metal Gear Solid 5, Smash Bros., Zelda and Metroid all out the same day. They may just somehow strike gold with another Wii Sports and sell gazillions again. Or they might have just been incredibly shortsighted and only have Excite Truck 2 and Kirby ready this holiday, and the system goes the way of the Dreamcast.

Those are the extremes, obviously, but at the end of the day there's a very realistic possibility that if the PS4 and/or 720 are the absolute hot items this holiday and going forward, the Wii U becomes a total afterthought and becomes a repeat of the GCN sales-wise, but a far more distant third place. It could definitely happen that way, and I can see it happening that way, no doubt about it.

But it's conceivable that while the hot new hardware is releasing this holiday, a number of the best new fall games will be available exclusively on Wii U. If the 720 and PS4 launch with lineups comparable to their predecessors, it will hardly be Murderer's Row. Nintendo has to take advantage of the extra year they've had available to them and put their best lineup out there, and hope its enough to get them plenty of attention in the wake of new, more powerful hardware launching.

*This is all assuming that Nintendo has been prepared for a while now that third party support wasn't just going to fall into place after simply "checking those boxes", and that they didn't have expectations of repeating the Wii's enormous success. If they were somehow blindsided by all of this, and don't have big plans for late 2013 besides another new Mario game and a price drop, I'll agree that they are in big time trouble. Let's wait for them to actually announce some games, and see how this year plays out. It's going to very interesting to watch, though.
 

jeremy1456

Junior Member
With how much Playstation All-Stars is selling, I'm not convinced Smash Bros. is any kind of system seller.

That's like me saying 'ZombiU didn't sell well so I think the market is done with FPS.' Are you for real?

QUOTE=netBuff;46332017]And Mario Kart has been getting very stale for a while now, that's not the kind of title generating much excitement.[/QUOTE]

Mario Kart 7 sold a more than a million copies in every region, but I guess there's some weird standard now to make that not a success?
 

netBuff

Member
It must be, because six months ago there were topics questioning if it would even be 'on par' with the HD consoles and that it wouldn't be getting FIFA or CoD.

The Wii U threads were full of people cheerleading the coming console, with completely bogus claims of its supposed power to run multiplatform titles at high resolution and framerate. People actually possessing insider information and throwing water on these absurd speculations were shouted down.

Mario Kart 7 sold a more than a million copies in every region, but I guess there's some weird standard now to make that not a success?

I'm not convinced a new Mario Kart is going to lead to much additional console adoption for the Wii U.
 

Darryl

Banned
I am a relentless Nintendo fan. I purchase every Nintendo system at launch. I purchased the 3DS at launch (and I love it). I purchased the Wii U at launch (and I really do like it). I have earned and gone through a bazillion Club Nintendo points, and I get Elite status every year. I even love NSMB2 and NSMBU, despite everyone telling me that I shouldn't. I cannot wait for Animal Crossing.

But I really, really believe that from a *business* standpoint -- not necessarily from a games-I-want-to-play standpoint -- the Wii U is going to be a cataclysmic disaster. I think it may be truly, truly awful for the company. I think that within a year we will be looking at a badly out-dated and out-featured console with nearly zero third-party support and almost no energy from the traditional gaming community. And, given the way that pop phenomena work, the emergence of iOS and Android gaming, and the way that the Wii's lifecycle went, I think that it is exceptionally improbable that the Wii U manages to (re)capture the attention of so-called "casual" gamers. I think we will see historically low numbers for a Nintendo console proportional to the current gaming market size, and perhaps even in absolute terms.

I just do not see *any* reason to believe that Nintendo will be able to build the kind of momentum that would be required in order for the system to be truly successful. Many people are saying what amounts to "if you look at historical trends, there is no reason to believe that these numbers mean doom". That may be true. But this overlooks two factors. First, what counts is not just the numbers but rather the numbers in context. The context, as far as I am concerned, is staggering disinterest. Two, it strikes me that the relevant consideration is not whether there is anything that in-principle rules out the Wii U's success, but rather whether we have any positive reason to believe that the Wii U will be a success. I can accept that nothing rules out the possibility of the Wii U succeeding, but I see absolutely nothing indicating that it is likely to succeed.

To be clear, nothing will stop me from loving the system. I'm sure that I will play and love Mario Galaxy 3 (or whatever), Mario Kart, Metroid, Zelda, Smash Bros., Animal Crossing, Fire Emblem, and so on, and so on. I'm gonna have a hell of a good time with the Wii U. Absolutely. But I very much believe that from a business standpoint it'll be a staggering failure.

You suggest emerging iOS and Android gaming. Serious problem with this - it has emerged. It isn't sneaking around the corner. It isn't a significant beast and very few want to chase money on that platform. Iwata himself is even claiming that they could see positives from it due to the significant amount of Animal Crossing sales. iPads were the hip item this year. You think they're going to be the hip item for the next 10 years? When do they stop? When does gaming finally emerge on it? I see nothing to indicate that it will happen soon and the entire market on it seems very stagnant to me.
 
The franchises had a new surge of popularity last gen.

That's like me saying 'Call of Duty was released on the N-Gage and that died so that's proof that the series doesn't sell at all.' Of course, the difference here is I'm only pretending to be stupid.

Or like when the 3DS released and then the popular releases actually sold well.

Of course your argument makes less sense so let's go with that.

I think the better argument would be "popular software sells well on popular hardware." As for the 3DS success, I think the argument is spotty at best, there. It's seen a significant price drop, a hardware revision, some big releases (3DS Land, Mario Kart, New Super Mario Bros.) which themselves sell well, but outside of Japan? Year over year, despite all of that, hardware sales were down this year in its second year.
 

slit

Member
Yeah, getting these games out for the holiday would be a big step in the right direction, but I don't understand why they are just considered money in the bank. They'll sell well, no doubt. And I'm sure they'd move some hardware. But the idea that Nintendo's big franchises spell automatic mass market success are not backed up by the existence of the Gamecube.

I don't think it's fair to compare it to GC. A new generation has grown up with Mario and company now. I'm not saying those releases will cause it to soar, but it will make some difference.
 

jeremy1456

Junior Member
They're not going to be system sellers. The Nintendo faithful already have their systems.

But if you want to take the route of being obtuse, whatever dude.

Your argument would make sense if it was grounded in reality. You're saying that the 3DS sales didn't increase because of Nintendo games because everyone who likes Nintendo games already has one?
 

Darryl

Banned
I think the better argument would be "popular software sells well on popular hardware." As for the 3DS success, I think the argument is spotty at best, there. It's seen a significant price drop, a hardware revision, some big releases (3DS Land, Mario Kart, New Super Mario Bros.) which themselves sell well, but outside of Japan? Year over year, despite all of that, hardware sales were down this year in its second year.

Do you think hardware sales are going to be down next year?
 
I don't think it's fair to compare it to GC. A new generation has grown up with Mario and company now. I'm not saying those releases will cause it to soar, but it will make some difference.

Of course it'll make a difference. I'm just contesting the notion that they automatically move massive amounts of hardware.
 
I'm not setting myself up for disappointment. I won't be flabbergasted if a video game company defies logic and doesn't produce a competent launch. However, I think at least one of them will produce a product that is technologically impressive for a reasonable price. My biggest question mark is really in regards to whether or not software that demonstrates a real generational leap will be ready to go.

I guess the software one is more what I was referring to. Without it there is no way to gage how impressive the system really is.
 

jeremy1456

Junior Member
I think the better argument would be "popular software sells well on popular hardware." As for the 3DS success, I think the argument is spotty at best, there. It's seen a significant price drop, a hardware revision, some big releases (3DS Land, Mario Kart, New Super Mario Bros.) which themselves sell well, but outside of Japan? Year over year, despite all of that, hardware sales were down this year in its second year.

The price drop happened like two years ago. I'm not sure it would still be riding the momentum of that.

Mario Kart 7 sold over a million units per region. New Super Mario Bros. 2 charted on NPD in December. Not sure about 3D Land.

You're basically saying that huge games won't sell the Wii U, and then you say that that's what sold the 3DS which is a ludicrous double standard.
 
The Wii U threads were full of people cheerleading the coming console, with completely bogus claims of its supposed power to run multiplatform titles at high resolution and framerate. People actually possessing insider information and throwing water on these absurd speculations were shouted down.

They were just as full of people claiming it would be far less powerful than either the PS3 or the 360.

Or infamously looking at 360 video showreels and claiming they looked worse than the 360.
 

Nekofrog

Banned
Your argument would make sense if it was grounded in reality. You're saying that the 3DS sales didn't increase because of Nintendo games because everyone who likes Nintendo games already has one?

No, I'm saying 3DS sales increased because games that people wanted started coming out for it, not because Nintendo pumped out a few franchises.

Jesus, you don't even have to read between the lines dude. You're insinuating things that were never there to begin with.
 
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