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Women as Reward - Tropes vs Women in Video Games
- Thread starter ElNarez
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M1ch04c4n0
Banned
Started watching, she begins with Metroid...
Sorry, not this time Anita, this would be the one I ask for a free pass. Blame it on my upbringing in a traditional lower-income Mexican family, but I need some babes showing up at the end of some games. Give them detailed personalities and backgrounds, but they still need to show up in a sexy costume (bikini at least).
Sorry, not this time Anita, this would be the one I ask for a free pass. Blame it on my upbringing in a traditional lower-income Mexican family, but I need some babes showing up at the end of some games. Give them detailed personalities and backgrounds, but they still need to show up in a sexy costume (bikini at least).
I'm at work so I can't watch this video but I will doubt Anita's street cred if she doesn't include my favorite example of this from Joe and Mac and their relentless pursuit of saving bodacious prehistoric babes:
She used a shower scene from Joe & Mac Returns.
Temporal Mess
Neo Member
I can't wait for the inevitable online shitstorm caused by this video. You know it's going to happen, despite the fact that this trope is probably one of the most obvious that she's ever discussed, and despite the fact that most people would probably agree that it exists.
Oh well, I can't wait to watch it when I get out of this class.
Oh well, I can't wait to watch it when I get out of this class.
When the thought process of the developer is "well this is fine, but what you really want is that Urban Ninja outfit!", why not? They're clearly not giving those "tasteful" extra costumes their due diligence.
John Kowalski
Banned
Pretty good.
Good video. I appreciate that these videos always show a ton of examples so you can't just blame it on one developer or series.
McIntosh (the co-creator) is a condescending prick who habitually talks over women, but I still think this series fulfills an important role. Games would be better if more of them handled this shit better.
I liked the inclusion of the Alice costumes because those costumes are rad and I want more rad alt costumes for female characters in games, not weird, cheap-Halloween-esque poorly designed ones.
McIntosh (the co-creator) is a condescending prick who habitually talks over women, but I still think this series fulfills an important role. Games would be better if more of them handled this shit better.
I liked the inclusion of the Alice costumes because those costumes are rad and I want more rad alt costumes for female characters in games, not weird, cheap-Halloween-esque poorly designed ones.
Anton Sugar
Member
Why? Without blaming it on your "lower-income Mexican" upbringing, if possible.
I watched just about all of it and I think she is spot on in this topic. I saw a lot of games I enjoy and am glad they are being called out on this. I do however still question the Rabbit Alice costume but that cat was indeed great. I think tackling this problem in particular could bring a bunch of more customers into gaming.
There really isnt much to argue against in this, MGS is definitely my favourite game that applies this trope everywhere, and every time it makes my eyes roll. Quiet and the B&B corps especially take the biscuit.
haha the sigh at 15:00 says it all. fucking capcpom.
I do find using mags as a distraction in the mgs series hilarious though.
haha what, "i like my developed female characters to be completely undermined by fanservice"
haha the sigh at 15:00 says it all. fucking capcpom.
I do find using mags as a distraction in the mgs series hilarious though.
haha what, "i like my developed female characters to be completely undermined by fanservice"
loaf of bread
Member
There are men as rewards as well at least.
I can't watch this right now but I'm curious (you can put it in spoiler tags if you want), what games does she discuss?
Considering they even totally got rid of the male cheesecake I can understand why it ruffled feathers. I don't think being bothered by such edits on principle (irrespective of what's actually getting edited) is a nonsensical position to take.
Considering they even totally got rid of the male cheesecake I can understand why it ruffled feathers. I don't think being bothered by such edits on principle (irrespective of what's actually getting edited) is a nonsensical position to take.
His Majesty
Banned
Still bad? The Witcher 3 is one of the better games around when it comes to female representation. I can highly recommend the article RPS did on the subject. I feel like the third game is getting a lot of flack based on what the first entry in the series did.
You're confused as to why a male enjoys the site of a scantily clad woman?
Dice//
Banned
I see what she means about Samus (and I definitely think Fem Freq is sometimes a bit 'heavy' in their criticisms)... personally, I found Other M much more detrimental to Samus' portrayal of a kickass woman than her end-game bikini/sportsgear stuff.
I wasn't talking exclusively about Witcher here. Hence the "in general" part. :S
I did giggle a little at the article for having this screen of lady with super low neckline:
Then this:
Funny coincidence x)
beatdowniidx
Member
she has some really good points in this episode
You know why
I find it hilarious this very thing is the whole point of the video, and you get a post like that hehe.
That is extremely unfair. I mean, you go from collecting sex cards (Witcher 1) to building what feel like really meaningful relationships(Witcher 3)
They have grown by leaps and bounds in terms of how they treat women and what your relationships with them mean.
Given the subject matter and the source (which come to think of it, has a pretty strong feminist outlook in parts), they are probably as far as they will ever get without actively aiming to even things up.
She does. A few weird examples here and there but...yeah, nothing she's saying here is outlandish. It's one of the better videos.
Corronchilejano
Member
Haven't had your morning coffee yet?
SliceSabre
Banned
Some people said she goes in on Japanese games when the VAST majority of the games she seems to mention or show are Western ones.
I mean, she spends an entire 5th of the episode focusing on Capcom and Square Enix games.
I'm not going to count the GOW stuff because she re-treads the ground 3 or 4 times. But yeah, Japan on blast in this video.
I kind of hate that the breaks the flow of her final point about Male Entitlement by going into a breakdown of the history of achievements. But still, it's a pretty good synopsis on male entitlement and how that creates fictional mental spaces like "the friend zone" or "white knighting".
As a kid, Samus stripping down at the end didn't even register with me. Part of it was just being young and innocent, but part was just that the NES didn't exactly present her in such detail and I ended up thinking she looked stupid.
I almost quit Witcher 1 when I encountered the sex cards thing. While I haven't played Witcher 3 yet (on the backlog!), W2 was at least far better than W1 about that nonsense, and aside from the opening scene giving me a bit of a 'Oh boy, here we go again' vibe, it managed to generally be a little more tasteful .
I just played Last Remnant, and while there weren't really any 'rewards' situations with the female characters, the game did an incredible job of making me think all the characters would be pretty tasteful and well designed at the beginning, only to throw a few characters in as you went that threw that notion out the window.
I almost quit Witcher 1 when I encountered the sex cards thing. While I haven't played Witcher 3 yet (on the backlog!), W2 was at least far better than W1 about that nonsense, and aside from the opening scene giving me a bit of a 'Oh boy, here we go again' vibe, it managed to generally be a little more tasteful .
I just played Last Remnant, and while there weren't really any 'rewards' situations with the female characters, the game did an incredible job of making me think all the characters would be pretty tasteful and well designed at the beginning, only to throw a few characters in as you went that threw that notion out the window.
Maybe it's more accurate to say that she goes in on fans of Japanese games getting mad at stuff getting altered during localization.
Anton Sugar
Member
Sounds like you're confused, because I'm asking why this
needs to happen, not why a male likes scantily clad women.
Yeeeah, none of the devs mentioned come out of this looking great.
And this certainly won't be the thing to change it.
Oh, and as for the male resentment being drudged out from when the idealized form of action-for-sex breaks down? That shit is super duper real.
KibblesBits
Member
This thread and video are going to be great.
Phoenix944
Member
It's salty alright
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
33 minutes? This is going to be a hefty one, digging in now
this announcement couldn't have been more timely
http://www.capcom-unity.com/gregama...umes-and-collectors-edition-for-north-america
http://www.capcom-unity.com/gregama...umes-and-collectors-edition-for-north-america
Lostconfused
Member
It's not about developers but about the quality of the video I was watching. The entire introduction of the concept seemed to be lacking in depth and information to me.
Anton Sugar
Member
What exactly is she "salty" about? Do you know what being "salty" means?
HiredN00bs
Member
Blame it on whatever you like; nevertheless, this attitude should and will change, and it's just as much your responsibility as it is mine.
Yep. I couldn't help but look at those Cammy and Chun costumes and think about this video. Anita and crew wanted to makes these tropes stand out and in my case she certainly succeeded.
That's kind of the point, isn't it? It didn't register with you, yet you were being conditioned to expect that kind of reward. That's why this kind of research is important, so we see the things that are sometimes obscured.
And, like it's been said before, this is grey stuff -- Metroid was groundbreaking in creating a strong female protagonist ... doesn't mean there aren't some things that could be better. Nothing is perfect.
Some people think that something they love can't survive any criticism at all -- that's just not true. We have to remove our emotions and attachment to these things we love, and look at the symbols behind some of it a bit objectively.
...what?
The first 5 minutes are all about explaining the concept, what it is, what it isn't, and how it differs from other tropes. It then spends another 10 listening out examples of how it's used. It then spends 5 linking it to social issues in males generally found in the states.
How did you find it lacking in information and depth?
i didnt know criticizing something makes you salty
I wish someone made similar videos concerning how men are portrayed across different forms of media.
Cool masculine dudebro still seems to be the norm and no sign of any change whatsoever.
The hypermasculine dudebro stuff and the women as reward stuff are done for the benefit of the same people.
Hellwarden
Member
I'm personally not terribly bothered by some of these examples. I could see how some people are though.
The magazines in the Metal Gear series for example seem harmless, and is done mostly tongue and cheek, and really are the least of that series problems when it comes to women.
The magazines in the Metal Gear series for example seem harmless, and is done mostly tongue and cheek, and really are the least of that series problems when it comes to women.
One of the better games? I can't remember seeing such good female characters in a video game... ever. Could anyone point out a better one?
Will watch the particular video over lunch if I can. But on the subject of Metroid, I always thought that the NES/GB versions were just showing you that she was a woman as clearly as they could given their tech limitations. I never once thought - 'Wow! She's in a bikini!' Never saw that as the point of it. I mean, they're chunky pixels. You're not gonna be attracted to that. It's not a reward in that sense. It was a plot twist. (And blew my childish mind.) Later Metroids were definitely guilty of making Samus a reward, though, and I never approved of that. Tacky as fuck, and yes, sexist imo.
I actually like Cammy's outfit. It's cute.
Chunner's though...naw. But the outfit that it should be will likely be 3.99.
Life is Strange.
Eh, it was a different time. This still applies.
I always thought it was really weird that they decided to go with an actual sponsored publication for the magazines. But then you hear about the budgetary issues with Kojima and Capcom and wonder how much Playboy paid to have their stuff in that game.
nrvalleytime
Member
Your excellent contribution to this discussion has established your points in irrefutable ways. Well done.
Gah, I really wish YouTube video creators wouldn't use annotation links in videos. I clicked on one by accident thinking I was pausing the video, and it took me to another video entirely and lost progress. ;_;
I'm not finished with the video yet, obviously, but so far this is definitely one of Feminist Frequency's better videos. It presents a clear theme and clear examples over the years. Very hard for anyone to object to the general topic or specific examples. It was actually a bit surprising to me too; I either never noticed or forgot that Dead Rising actually awards you with points on your photos for an "erotic" shot. Which, given the setting, is even more disturbing than usual. >_>;
I'm not finished with the video yet, obviously, but so far this is definitely one of Feminist Frequency's better videos. It presents a clear theme and clear examples over the years. Very hard for anyone to object to the general topic or specific examples. It was actually a bit surprising to me too; I either never noticed or forgot that Dead Rising actually awards you with points on your photos for an "erotic" shot. Which, given the setting, is even more disturbing than usual. >_>;
I wish someone made similar videos concerning how men are portrayed across different forms of media.
Cool masculine dudebro still seems to be the norm and no sign of any change whatsoever.
There are tropes there to be sure, but there's way way more variety in designs and character archetypes to be had when it comes to male characters. This complaint would only really hold water if we lived in a status quo where things like nerdy male scientists were commonly portrayed as ripped dudebros in labcoats.
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