Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
This is just not true at all.
Like, wtf
I understand people don't like the combat in W3 but you don't need to make stuff up
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WRPGs with good combat?
- Thread starter Renekton
- Start date
This is just not true at all.
Like, wtf
I understand people don't like the combat in W3 but you don't need to make stuff up
Sanctuary
Member
I think he's talking about unlocking anything that changes the flow of the combat in such a way that it changes for the better. In that regard, he's not wrong. It mechanically stays mediocre from the beginning, or serviceable if you have a kinder opinion. It doesn't really matter what flashy fluff abilities you unlock, or how broken you can become with mutagens if the base system is just all around so "bleh". The feedback is such that it always feels like I'm controlling a robot, and hitting wood.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Well, that's one opinion.
So what's there?
5% increased damage, yay! poison xyz. potion xyz. Enhanced potion xyz. Superior potion xyz.
I'm a completionist through andt rhough. Played it on Death March. The time it took to open the menu, look at the monster's weakness and apply an oil I could've killed it three times already.
Best skills were life regen, +500 hp, capacity and whatnot. Basically everything not combat related.
Theslammer
Member
I like the combat in The Witcher 3, but wholeheartedly agree that the leveling in the game is so lackluster. I can't recall a RPG where I sat on a pile of skill points wondering what I would spend them on.
Sanctuary
Member
I guess actually we might need a definition of what makes combat good or not. Horizon seemed like it had potential, and was above average I guess for a while, but it suffers the same thing too many almost great games suffer. It just becomes way too easy to make your character ridiculously strong to the point that almost every encounter is trivialized.
I think the game might actually be longer than it needs to be too. Or at least it is if you're even a part time completionist. Learning how to take enemies out is probably the best aspect of it, but you soon realize that even on the higher difficulty the same few tactics and weapons reign supreme. Plus, that's only against the robots. The human AI is so dumb to the point that they shouldn't have even bothered with making any human encounters.
Fun is subjective, but you can still have fun with combat that isn't actually all that good. Then there's also the whole "What is an RPG anyway?" thing, where too many "kind of, but not really RPGs" are being called such.
Theslammer
Member
Um...
Sure, dude. Yes, nobody was using their own definition of good combat before, but now that you supplied it, we'll all be sure to follow your lead and make this thread a classic.
Some of you guys...
Sanctuary
Member
Right, yourself included since I never once stated what actually made good combat. Reading is hard. The OP had a certain criteria, but that still doesn't really determine what is good or not, only what he was looking for.
Theslammer
Member
Reading is easy, but apparently understanding what's read is hard since I'm not sure what your post has to do with mine.
Theslammer
Member
I did catch it, though. =P
Strange, I've consistently found and heard with enough JRPGs that combat is something to get over for the story.
At least when it comes to turn-based or pause and play (turns in real-time) combat I find WRPGs on average far more enjoyable. Primarily because they regularly involve positioning, while many JRPGs don't unless they get the SRPG marker...and even then most of them are grid based with little to no real level design effecting what you do. I love Persona 5 for example, but the combat is pretty basic. Bethesda is never the studio to go for great combat.
Divinity: Original Sin, Icewind Dale 1-2, Temple of Elemental Evil, and Tyranny are good options. Original Sin just has some of the best turn-based combat period, and Original Sin 2 looks like a great improvement with more verticality.
When it comes to action/RPGs using melee combat, I do think Japan on average does a better job. Bloodborne and Dragon's Dogma are top tier in that area. Some good shooter/RPG combat exists in western titles like Destiny, Dishonored 1-2 (all powers aimed through reticle, crossbows, grenades and has profession), Deus Ex: HR & MD and Horizon.
Good, let's keep it as our secret! =)
This!! Just got it. Battle system blows my mind!
man, I HATED temple of elemental evil's combat. Maybe in retrospect I didn't give it a fair enough shot, but I was very excited for it pre-release as it was the first to be moving to 3rd ed combat rules, which I hoped would fix a lot of my issues with the 2nd ed stuff from the infinity engine games, but holy shit I hated ToEE's pathfinding. Paired with attacks of opportunity, it was east to get someone shredded while just trying to move them from A to B. It also crashed on me quite a bit, and was full of game breaking bugs which is probably souring my memory of it, but it was no Icewind Dale. Not even close.
capitalCORN
Member
The game's been fixed up plenty with the Circle of Eight mods. And combat is supposed to be brutal, that's part of the joy. It's not just simply of moving a thief for a backstab, running into a pair of Trolls at level three is terrifying. You have to maintain formation and maximize your own opportunities, and what wonderful tools you have!
Humdinger
Member
I enjoyed Horizon's combat throughout the 120+ hours I played it. Lots of different potential strategies, lots of options, differences among enemies that you'd have to learn, plenty of challenge (depends on the beast), and things seemed to play out differently each time. Plus it just looked cool.
Ivory Samoan
Gold Member
This nails TW3 combat for me: on DM difficulty you need to think and plan and strategise. Makes it much more fun, playing TW3 on normal is not the one at all.
Others I love the combat in:
Divinity OS
Fallout 4
Mass Effect: Trilogy / Andromeda
Pillars of Eternity
Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning
Horizon ZD
The Surge
This does not track. At all.
Witcher 3's combat is mediocre entirely because CPR has a poor handle on how real time combat should flow.
Skill progression is worth talking about, but it is definitely near the bottom of the list. Besides, itemization is a much bigger issue anyway.
Agreed.
I actually would really have preferred it had the combat form the first game been kept all the way through. I really liked the approach they were going for with it.
I think Witcher 3 is the worst excuse for giving the player the feeling of fighting. Haven't played the revamped combat mod thingy.
Best? Dragon's Dogma. Its an wrpg in my books. No question.
Tactical strats like Divinity OS are great but I don't feel the tension. I wanna feel like I'M fighting!
Best? Dragon's Dogma. Its an wrpg in my books. No question.
Tactical strats like Divinity OS are great but I don't feel the tension. I wanna feel like I'M fighting!
I think on average JRPGs are pretty lacking actually well designed and deep combat too.
Persona 5's combat is probably the worst thing about the game, at least now the dungeons are slightly more interesting than the mind numblingly boring ones in 3 and 4.
Also quite enjoy tri-Ace games and their actiony flashy battle systems such as Star Ocean can be fun but dam is it glitches galore, some truly cheap boss battles, awful ally AI.
Vagrant Story is kinda of a sacred cow for some and yes it does have a decent amount of depth to it, but man does that game do an awful job at teaching you its finer details in the actual game, if you dont already know what you're doing going in it makes for a pretty damn tedious experience.. that and some of the worst menu design in history.
Gameplay wise I'd take the Grimrock games over most JRPGs, not so much for the combat itself but the truly excellent puzzle design.
Persona 5's combat is probably the worst thing about the game, at least now the dungeons are slightly more interesting than the mind numblingly boring ones in 3 and 4.
Also quite enjoy tri-Ace games and their actiony flashy battle systems such as Star Ocean can be fun but dam is it glitches galore, some truly cheap boss battles, awful ally AI.
Vagrant Story is kinda of a sacred cow for some and yes it does have a decent amount of depth to it, but man does that game do an awful job at teaching you its finer details in the actual game, if you dont already know what you're doing going in it makes for a pretty damn tedious experience.. that and some of the worst menu design in history.
Gameplay wise I'd take the Grimrock games over most JRPGs, not so much for the combat itself but the truly excellent puzzle design.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Wait, that was in my post from yesterday which you already replied to. Now a day later ... you do it again, while ignoring my additional replies to you of course. I'm still waiting for the progression in Witcher 3. Can you get any more childish?
geordiemp
Member
JRPG's have combat ?
Always perceived them as strategic number games with scripted actions when pressing a button.
Should submit a thread 'JRPG's that have actual combat'
Well I'm not that guy and I don't think Witcher 3 skill progression is very special either. But it's not only buffing up numbers. I personally went with melee focused build on both of my playthroughs so I'm no expert in the variety either. But for melee you can unlock new strikes like rend and whirl. Especially rend I'd think is something people not fond of the combat would like, since you have direct control over the attack. When going for signs there's an effect on how those work, for example Yrden can be upgared to work as a trap for better crowd control or igni to work as a continuous flamethrower rather than quick burst. And Axii sometimes gives you additional dialogue options. But yeah when I played I often went many levels without picking anything new, since I didn't care that much. Combat never is the draw for me in RPG:s anyway so similar thing happens in other games too. It's not even only RPG:s actually, I've been playing Bayonetta now on PC for about 8 hours and only unlocked the dodge at air ability, not any other skills, weapons or items. But as I said, this tells more about me than the game. Saying that there's zero progression and it's only about numbers is hyperbolic and isn't beneficial to anyone.
Decent? DECENT?
Best combat of all time as far as I care. I still replay it from time to time just to get some more of it. Dishonored inherited some of its magic but somehow its not the same.
Mass Appeal
Member
I would say Horion.
I can't fathom people saying Witcher 3. The combat in that game even on higher difficulty made that game a chore to finish.
I can't fathom people saying Witcher 3. The combat in that game even on higher difficulty made that game a chore to finish.
Shake Appeal
Member
Strongly disagree. The combat is hard to salvage because it's so unbalanced and easy to break.
Balance is one of the most overlooked parts of good RPG combat for me. That's why DQ is consistently excellent, you never feel overpowered as you go through it, and there's enough skills and variety to keep things interesting.
I think this a bit unfair. Most RPGs is in some way about stats and character building from scrub to power house. This applies pretty broadly across all RPGs with maybe a few exceptions.
Souls, Dogma, Original Sin, Bloodborne etc all have pretty reliable tricks and methods to trivialise the difficulty. Sometimes the combat is still fun when you're over powered and sometimes earning that power is what makes the game fun.
I think when people say "none" then that says more about their lack of experience than it does about RPGs.
DQ, to me, is a perfect example of command RPG repetitive hell.
I couldn't disagree harder if I tried.
DQ, to me, is a perfect example of command RPG repetitive hell.
Triggerhappytel
Member
I don't understand at all why the Souls games would qualify as western RPGs? Are there any western games whose format they follow?!
Yeah, this is a good suggestion. The combat in Amalur was really shallow but a whole lot of fun. It was a bit like Fable but better IMO. Also felt much more challenging too.
Yeah, I like Mass Effect 1 the best, but the combat is by far the worst part of it.
Lol well i was only half serious does darksiders 2 count? I quite liked it in that game.
Witcher 3's combat is actually pretty great if played on a higher difficulty.
Triggerhappytel
Member
The combat is good in Horizon because the game gives you a lot of tools to take enemies down with. You can lay tripwires as traps, use bombs, tie enemies down, slow them down with ice, knock parts of their armour off to expose weak points, knock their own weapons off to use against them, trick them into fighting each other, as well as having about 6+ different types of arrow to use against enemies with specific weaknesses and having a few different melee attacks for when things get up close and personal. I hope they build on the melee side of things in the sequel, but on the whole I think the combat is excellent and one of the game's best aspects.
It's because you can't kick people on spikes in Dishonored.
Sanctuary
Member
I don't really agree. Or at least, I don't see those games becoming trivial anywhere near as quickly as most mainstream RPGs do, even though there will always be "better than" choices in terms of making the game easier on a first or second playthrough. What I'm talking about is where game balance in general is just completely out of whack.
In a proper RPG (or a game in general where you grab skills and new gear), things should feel somewhat overwhelming at the start, and steadily decline as you level up and acquire new skills and gear, but it should eventually taper off; not fall way behind in the power curve/creep like it does in too many games. I'm not talking about grinding either. That's usually a player's choice, and aside from some random "ultimate" bosses, almost never required. You shouldn't feel like you're grossly overpowered simply by doing more than following the main quest without any distractions.
Then there's the moment you realize that over half of the enemies in the game are extremely susceptible to fire, and a triple volley from a Hunter Bow with 3x 30% (or higher) fire mods completely wrecks them. Then of course, there's the always broken stealth mechanic that lets you one-shot most normal enemies, and for everything else? Frost and Tearblast arrows or a triple shot of Hard Point. You have all kinds of options in the game, but most of them become completely irrelevant slightly over the halfway mark aside from "just because I can" type stuff, not because it's actually all that efficient.
Such a badass.
Swimmer9800
Member
Fallout 3,4, and New Vegas! Vats holds a special place in my heart.
It's a JRPG with a western RPG skin. That skin is what you feel.
Just because they decided to base the lore on Eurocentric mythology doesn't make it a western RPG.
The only western RPG that actually is combat focused and successful at it is Mount and Blade. I would include For Honor but unlike Mount and Blade it doesn't deliver on everything else that makes for a solid RPG experience so it doesn't count. Western RPGs do a lot of things right but combat is usually mediocre unless it is a turn based game.
Imp the Dimp
Member
Joke 1st post? Combat in Witcher 3 is not great at all. I do enjoy the responsiveness of Diablo 3 and the high level combat of Path of Exile and I'm sure there are other WRPGs without trash combat.
Heh, well it looks you're a big western rpg guy based on your avatar, so we'll just agree to disagree on these things. But the balance, resource management, and speed of battles (not to mention charm of enemy design ) keeps DQ battles from being anything but boring for me.
I'm a big RPG guy in general. I've probably played around half of all JRPGs that saw an English retail release since the SNES era (inclusive).
Anyway, the speed of battles depends on which particular DQ we are talking about -- DQ8 was slow as molasses.
Resource management is a fair point, it does have a bit more of that than most modern JRPGs (since it's mostly an abandoned concept outside of dungeon crawlers).
Balance, well, balance is something incredibly important to some players of JRPGs and WRPGs alike, but it's not a priority I share. To me, interesting tactical and strategic (character progression / mechanical customization) possibilities are far more important. What good is balance if I end up performing the same rote actions in the vast majority of a game's battle encounters?
And I hate Akira Toriyama's style so that probably doesn't help my enjoyment of DQ
