Dice//
Banned
Which reminds me how much I love this small innocuous change
http://kotaku.com/5958918/father-hacks-zelda-for-his-daughter-makes-link-a-girl
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Would you be able to accept it if Link was reincarnated as a Gerudo woman?
- Thread starter A Link to the Past
- Start date
Which reminds me how much I love this small innocuous change
http://kotaku.com/5958918/father-hacks-zelda-for-his-daughter-makes-link-a-girl
He isn't being rebooted, unless LTTP, Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, Skyward Sword, Spirit Tracks, Link Between Worlds, and many more are also considered reboots. They each feature different Links with different origins, but apparently double X chromosomes is just too much for a legendary hero chosen by the Gods.
balgajo
Member
Nobody gave me a good argument on why, accepting that I see Link as a mascot, changing Link would be different than changing Mario.
As I already said, I put Link, the mascot, ahead of what Link could be by the possibilities of the lore. Just happens that being male is one of Link's, the mascot, characteristics. Like male Mario, female Samus, male Donkey Kong, female Lara Croft.
blankempathy
Member
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=140436226&postcount=1018
Let me ask you a question? Why does Link have to be a girl in order for people to feel like they're being included? I've said it countless times. Make another female protagonist. Make zelda the star but people again seem to ignore those choices. You're intent on completely changing a character that you don't even want to consider other options that make more sense then overhauling a character who's been essentially since the early days of gaming. Isn't you stuck on wanting link to be a female a personal choice that tickles your fancy? People aren't arguing that Link shouldn't be changed because hes a male. They're arguing that he shouldn't be changed because he's a singular iconic character thats existed for longer then most people who have been gaming.
because the way you see it is wrong. link isn't trotted out like mario.
mario is a mascot
link is not a mascot
zelda is not a mascot
samus is not a mascot
star fox is not a mascot
they are all characters within the nintendo universe
your perception of the situation and the reality of the situation are different.
there's your good argument
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Why not just let people choose what gender he is, if you can already choose his name and his name alludes to him being a 'link' to the hplayer? He's already ambiguous character-design wise to an extent where, besides SS and the occasional nudge in stuff like OoT/WW, Link's gender is totally irrelevant and visually would barely be noticeable in the first place. I think people wanting him female and people feeling him being female would 'ruin' his mascot status are making a huge mountain out of a molehill I'm not even confident Nintendo gives a shit about, given their apathetic response to people thinking Link was a girl at first in the Zelda U reveal.
Who all happen to be the same dude with basically the same design and personalities and if they were to be swap noting would changes.
ask the many female gamers who see it as a barrier of entry, or who see it as a long standing signal of "only boys can do this". they may be able to play and enjoy it, sure, but it's a ridiculous notion that even miyamoto has stated "girls cant do this because skirts".
No. This isn't a choice, this is a cop-out.
Link isn't a character. He's an archetype.
A character is an individual within fiction that takes part in a story. The Legend of Zelda games tell multiple stories of different archetypal heroes named Link.
Not an individual Link spanning the entire series.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Dude, the changes are nowhere near the level being presented in the thread. Christ he's basically has had the same haircut since the series started.
"This isn't what I want, it's a cop-out."
blankempathy
Member
Thats crap. Link is as much as a mascot as Mario is. Mario is Nintendo's version of Micky Mouse. Link would be like donald duck.
It wouldn't be a "Zelda" game to me if Link was changed like that. To me, Zelda games are about the male protagonist saving the princess & the world from an evil man. BAsic story, sure, but it works.
Swap the genders of all 3 characters and I guess the game would still be a Zelda game. Otherwise, let Zelda be the hero if people want to play as a female so bad.
It's GAF. There was really no other direction this thread would go.
Swap the genders of all 3 characters and I guess the game would still be a Zelda game. Otherwise, let Zelda be the hero if people want to play as a female so bad.
It's GAF. There was really no other direction this thread would go.
blankempathy
Member
Exactly like I said. You don't view link as a character so why should I take your opinion seriously. I'm done trying to explain it to you. You can't seem to grasp that point.
thesolidshark
Member
I'd be looking at Luigi as more of a Donald. Link...I see Peter Pan honestly.
Link is mascot dude, he is the face of one the most popular video games series of all time that has over 20 millions copies .
ChosenPredator
Banned
I agree Link and a big majority of the nintendo characters are pretty much mascots, the characters are iconic.
balgajo
Member
Dice//
Banned
Amen.
IIRC they were pretty apathetic about the timeline too at one point (I honestly still think they more "feed the fans" with that one than they do themselves in creating these games since they're so keen to "rebooting" Hyrule time and time again)
Because it's not only a point of view, it's factual.
By the very definition of character, the "Link" that you are adhering to is NOT one. The individual Links that inhabit the individual entries in the series are characters, but there is no one sole "Link" with defining traits that must be adhered to.
Pretty much this. I find it odd that with all the iterations and generations/worlds there hasn't been a female Link. I've been fond of the idea for quite some time, it'd be a nice change.
Besides, it's not like making him female would double the work...
*cough* Ubisoft *cough*.
You keep going at this as if Link is the same person each game, which is not the case. It's different Links each time, and there's nothing in the writing that stipulates it has to be a dude.
For God's sake, he's called Link. That should clue anybody in on what role he's supposed to fill.
How exactly is changing his gender not a cop out?
I think making Link, the character that has been established in the hero role for the entirety of the series, female just does a lot to communicate the idea that we are ready to take risks when it comes to offering fair representation in a game. Moreso than making Zelda the main character of a series. It takes the associations that people make with Link and automatically reframes that to include females. The nice thing about it is that the internal logic of the game doesn't make it such an out of the ordinary decision to take. Its sort of like how Marvel made Thor female and Captain America black. Sure they could have highlighted original characters that were black or female, but they used the internal comic logic that there multiple people can take up a hero's mantle and made a declaration that "we are ready to invest in diversity" quickly. Making Link female would just have a bigger impact than making Zelda the main character.
Do the people arguing that link is not a character understand that he's appearing in no less than three non zelda games this year? That any picture of link from any zelda game is instantly recognizable as him? That the only reason he's got value as a character to nintendo is because of his consistent appearance?
Do you get that nintendo has never once in a zelda game teased the idea of someone besides link being the legendary hero? Nintendo does nothing with this storyline you're clinging to! It is a practical tool to get link into the game. The legendary hero is meaningless nonsense.
Is any of this getting through?
Again, you are actually arguing that link is not a character when he is appearing in other nintendo games. It's insane
Do you get that nintendo has never once in a zelda game teased the idea of someone besides link being the legendary hero? Nintendo does nothing with this storyline you're clinging to! It is a practical tool to get link into the game. The legendary hero is meaningless nonsense.
Is any of this getting through?
Again, you are actually arguing that link is not a character when he is appearing in other nintendo games. It's insane
Mango The Magician
Banned
Which is why all the designs of Link follow set traits, or why they don't even necessary need to change Link in-between games as evidenced by the six games that all use Toon Link, or the fact that ALBW Link prior to being redesigned was identical to ALttP Link, and after being redesigned (the final version) was identical, to a tee to the Oracles Link.
I know Link isn't the same person in each game, Christ how many times is that gonna be brought up!? All I'm saying is that there's a damn design for the character that all versions of him adhere to, and while there's no reason that can't be changed (to who the hell ever cares about the lore) that doesn't mean I'm ok with them abandoning 30 years of design just for fairness or in the name of 'yeah the lore allows it.'
See, here's the thing: your threshold for "rebooted" is incredibly low (Link reincarnating as a woman would still fit within the overall concept of the character), your threshold for passing "just because" is apparently incredibly high (how many times do the various reasons have to be spelled out?), and your definition of "established character" is incredibly specific.
With those points of divergence in mind, I don't see this debate ending for quite awhile. I suspect those who would like to play a female Link will eventually get their wish, though.
blankempathy
Member
Hes not the same link but hes the same entity of link. The same link that you see star in games lIke smash brothers or show up in mario kart. Nintendo doesn't refer to link as separate beings when discussing him nor do the fans. He's just link.
Because the question here is being able to play as a female Link.
Substituting another character is a cop-out to the proposition.
But that's not even remotely what MM is about. So is that not a Zelda game?
Which Link are we talking about? Because there is no one sole "Link". Which Link from which game is appearing in which games here? You can't just say "LINK IS IN SMASH" or anything along those lines because which one is it?
Think about this before you answer. Your answer is going to refute your own point of Link not being an archetype.
It is. You might want to reread what you wrote in this quote up there because it actually quite fits quite nicely with the "Link can be a girl" argument.
Again, which Link is it? There is no one, singular Link that encompasses the entire series.
Think about this objectively for a second.
Spring-Loaded
Member
YEAH BUT
Mango The Magician
Banned
Compromises are cop-outs now, wow.
Technically it's a side story, about a hero saving the land from evil.
Jesus fuck man, this isn't about bowing down to "SJWs" or some shit lmao
As far as representation goes it's less "Let's check off this box" than "Hey, people like this exist." There is absolutely nothing wrong with people wanting to see characters like them in the media they consume, or wanting to see more than the same thing we've seen for 30 years. And it'd be nice if people that ask for that weren't always met with some variation of "Fuck off and go do it yourself, leave our thing alone." I'm not saying you said this K-A, but it does happen all the time, and it is goddamn frustrating.
Now, I honestly don't expect Nintendo to do something like this. If anything they'll do something different, but not too different, so a Hylian FemLink at most, and probably not anytime soon. That's my thought from a cynical point of view, Cash Rules Everything Around Me and all that. But I believe that change is necessary; to keep things fresh, to challenge ourselves and our perceptions, and to inspire others to try something new, or do something better. I wouldn't say changing Link is necessary, but I definitely would say it'd be compelling and worthwile (and I'd also continue to argue that Link, in the context of the Zelda franchise, is a concept), and this particular idea of Link being a Gerudo woman sounds really cool, even though I'm slightly more interested in a Ganondorf-led title. If any company could pull off a compelling and worthwile change like that, I think Nintendo could.
He's "just Link" because that's all they've ever tried so far. There's no reason why Link, a character designed so that you can fill his shoes, can't be a woman. There's no reason this Link can't be playable in Smash Bros, like how Twilight Princess Link and Wind Waker Link replaced Ocarina of Time's Adult and Young Links. She could have the exact same moves, color schemes, specials, literally everything that makes Link who he is, but, you know, while being a woman.
When that is not the subject of discussion, yes, it is a cop-out. We are talking about the legendary hero being a girl. We are not talking about playing as Zelda.
You can that for most character but doesn't mean we should change them.
blankempathy
Member
And theres no reason why you can't make Solid snake a female in a reboot or Samus a man. It doesn't mean you should change things to appease people.
And you know what'd they call her? Girl Link
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
This is all completely arbitrary and nonsense. They're ALL mascots
But it's not changing things, that's not what you're getting.
Solid Snake is a character who is a male within his universe.
Solid Snake is not a reincarnated hero who is a new person with each game entry, nor is Samus.
This is what Link ACTUALLY is. Link is a reincarnated SPIRIT. There is no law within the Zelda universe that states the spirit must take the form of a male.
You are arguing against something we are not even putting up as an argument through your own misinterpretation.
Dice//
Banned
Why do you keep posting this when the analogy doesn't or hasn't made sense or held water? It ain't the same thing.
Or Linkle
I'd actually be alright with this. Call me crazy, but I haven't been so glad with how the series has been.
At this point the series is pretty formulaic, give or take a few gimmicks. Sure it's defining and consistent, but to me it's just boring. The puzzles aren't so much puzzles as they are just rote memorization.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Half the people in the thread said that they wanted a femLink simply because they want a female playable character, the only real problem someone can have with Link always being the main character, so Zelda or someone new solves that without taking Link away. Simply saying you want a female Link because you want one is no different than me saying that I want a female Mario, DK, Sonic, or what have you (do not being up the lore again) because I want one, and as such just boils down to what the individual wants and is irrelevant to the actually problem of there being a lack of a playable female character.
If I actually have to explain in words why making gaming's most beloved female icon into a dude is hugely different to the opposite situation I'm going to have an aneurysm, so not gonna dignify that, but...
Snake is literally a clone of another man, but, yeah, actually; there's no reason why Snake *can't* be a woman. Especially in a reboot, or even in a future title set post MGS4. This is a universe where people can get turned into cyborgs; tinkering with someone's sex doesn't seem farfetched for the cyberpunk future of MGS. We do that today.
EDIT: To clarify, I mean that Snake's genes could totally be used to create a "daughter" like how Big Boss' were used for Snake. Fair game on the reboot concept, though.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
There's a difference between a blank slate and an archetype. Link is an archetype and most representations of that archetype are fairly blank slates. Appearances in multiple media doesn't make something a strong character. Would you say that Mr. Game and Watch is a well defined character? What are the character differences between Toon Link and TP Link and how were they represented in Smash Bros? How does the existence of a Zelda game starring a non white male Link (or even the option for one) impact on these unrelated representations in other titles?
I'm not really talking about lore, more narrative structure. I disagree that being white or male are integral to Link's design. When I think of Link's design, I think of young, courageous, green floppy hat and tunic, utilitarian clothes, sword and shield, physically unimposing build. I think a character with those elements could be any colour or gender and would still be recognisable as Link. I think your resistance to the customisation idea (I know you think it's "the lesser of two evils") is unfounded and ignores the benefits of diversity in representation (and the downsides of a lack of it), especially for a heroic archetype aimed at younger audiences like Link.
I've been hammering this point about how Nintendo designs Link to serve as a way for the player to feel involved, but an interesting bit of trivia is that apparently that's not actually the origin of the name. It was from early development on the first title where it was originally something about the Triforce being computer chips and you'd have to travel between the future and the past to get them and the hero was the "link" between the two time periods.
I consider Link a Nintendo just as much as Mario.
I think MM is the only Zelda game I haven't played, but I always thought the game was a side story/expansion to OoT. I imagine it would be DLC if released today, kind of like the Luigi stuff for NSMBU.
You think you got me, or something? :lol
I think MM is the only Zelda game I haven't played, but I always thought the game was a side story/expansion to OoT. I imagine it would be DLC if released today, kind of like the Luigi stuff for NSMBU.
You think you got me, or something? :lol
Eh, I made a post earlier in this page offering the Thor and Captain America example. I don't have anything against changing a character's appearance when the logic of the medium allows it.
Hahahaha. Good God, come on. What kind of line of argument is this, where it's completely irrelevant what anyone on the opposite side is actually saying? I don't know how Solid Snake or Samus matter to this discussion.
I agree that things shouldn't necessarily change only to appease people, although I'm not sure who's making that argument. Let me ask you this, though, out of curiosity: what if the developers themselves decide that a Zelda game with a female Link is one they'd like to make? Would you accept that change if it were primarily to "appease the developers"?