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[blankempathy]

You're describing what Link actually is.

Then why is he in smash? Why does he cameo in mario kart? Why did they spin off a game with hyrule warriors and include him if hes just an avatar character? Especially in Hyrule warriors which lets you choose from many other different LoZ characters.

 

[Dice//]

Everything i cited in my post has been pointed to as reasons why link can be female.

So, what exactly is the problem?

Links traits aren't gender specific, we're told. Entering your own name is evidence of him being an avatar, supposedly. And its been said that link has an androgynous look.

So what's stopping people from interpreting this open slate as a female?

Nothing, except a text box or two.

Zelda: "Link is the only man--- I MEAN WOMAN, who can save us. He --- SHIT I MEAN SHE --- will save Hyrule from the darkest hour."

Yeah no....I want my gender option, thanks. Really, if you're willing to go so far to make him androgynous and player-like, why not the option.

Spoiler

(or of course, playable Zelda; another peculiarly difficult concept after almost 30 years of the title)

 

[Nickle]

And the pot called the kettle black.

Actually, I completely understand why some people would want to make Link a girl. There are very few female MC's in video games, Link has never had that much of a personality, he technically is someone different every time, it would be refreshing for the series, etc. I understand those points.

I call you "closed-minded" because you completely reject or ignore any and all arguments for the opposite viewpoint. Several times in this thread you and others have said that there is "no reason" for Link to not become a girl, which means that you don't even acknowledge the existence of an opposing viewpoint. That's the definition of closed-minded.

Until you concede that it is okay for people to view Link as just one character, then I will continue to call you closed-minded.

-Edit: By the way, your "example" of me being closed-minded is taken out of context and also was a joke. Someone said that it would be stupid for Zelda to become a hero because she hasn't traditionally been the hero, and another person disagreed with that. I sarcastically replied (with what you quoted) to the second person because I found it funny that someone who was against changing tradition wanted to make Link a girl anyway. Please take that misleading quote down.

 

[danm999]

They wouldn't even need to get over radical changes. The gender is already pretty ambiguous from the current design. I think the problem is that it is going to bloat the story a bit. The story is already bloated, but it is designed in a way that you really don't need to know any of it to enjoy the game fully. The art style adjusting has never changed anything about the game story wise. He was still Link in Wind Waker. If they added a gender, I think a lot of people will ask who really is Link. Why can he just become a female all of a sudden? Who was I playing in those other games? Are those thoughts that people really need to have? I don't think they belong in the minds of Zelda fans myself, especially looking at how many fans are casual.

This horse bolted a long time ago.

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

There are so many ways to interpret this that I don't know what you are going for.

I was trying to say that the idea of making link a women is just giving some people what they want and therefoe bad and shouldn't happen
is a pretty stupid idea when twilight princess exists.

Also he turns into a freaking wolf and apparently he's still link, seems strange that giving him boobs is a step to far for some people

 

[Buckethead]

Zelda games are good exploration, puzzle solving, combat in dungeons, and variety.

Changing a mute character's clothing and gender in an essentially narrativeless game does nothing of detriment at worst and a welcome change of scenery at best.

But people will complain and cry about it and we'll never have anything new because... tradition.

 

[Mango The Magician]

So I should take the word of someone on the internet as a factual point of what the character of link is over what Nintendo views him as? Ok. Nintendo doesn't use "individual links" outside of mediums. Unless they are specifically tailored for certain merchandise or situations Nintendo always uses the newest version of link to market him. Just like samus. They used her other M form in smash just like they used Links skyward sword appearance. Same with fox and any other character whos been updated. Thats because they view Link as one character within their Nintendo universe. Except for toon link who spawned off apparently due to smash and to fit the ds style of games. Then again hes still link. Just as a chibi cartoon variant.

To be fair, they use the Twilight Princess design, or a re-purposed version of that, for Smash. However it really doesn't matter as literally any version of Link coul be replaced in Smash and still represent all versions of Link equally, hell you could get rid of regular Link and only have Toon Link, and that'd still easily represent all versions of Link; wouldn't even have to call him Toon Link.

I was trying to say that the idea of making link a women is just giving some people what they want and therefoe bad and shouldn't happen
is a pretty stupid idea when twilight princess exists.

Also he turns into a freaking wolf and apparently he's still link, seems strange that giving him boobs is a step to far for some people

Mario transforms into a boo in one game, and Sonic into a Werehog (whatever the hell that is) in another, are you saying that we need a Maria and Sonia (where my Underground fans at?)?

 

[Weiss]

Then why is he in smash?

Twilight Princess Link is in Smash, as is Wind Waker Link as two separate characters.

Why does he cameo in mario kart?

His artwork would suggest that this Link is the Skyward Sword one.

Why did they spin off a game with hyrule warriors and include him if hes just an avatar character? Especially in Hyrule warriors which lets you choose from many other different LoZ characters.

You're playing as a brand new Link in Hyrule Warriors. You may notice he has a different backstory to the other ones.

I don't even think Hyrule Warriors is canon, at any rate.

 

[Nekofrog]

Then why is he in smash? Why does he cameo in mario kart? Why did they spin off a game with hyrule warriors and include him if hes just an avatar character? Especially in Hyrule warriors which lets you choose from many other different LoZ characters.

Again, I'm calling you out.

You're ignoring what I have been saying to fit your convenient narrative.

Which Link is being used in Smash?

Which Link is in Mario Kart?

They are using specific Links from specific entries of The Legend of Zelda.

They are not using the omnipresent "Link" that hovers over the series, because there is none. They are using representatives of their respective games.

 

[Sami+]

Im also wondering, if link is just a nameless, faceless, genderless avatar which we inhabit while playing zelda, then what exactly is the problem? You should be able to enjoy your adventure as a female link right now.

Enter your name of choice, and admire links feminine features. There's no love story here. And we're a progressive society anyway so skyward sword shouldn't be a problem.

And i know you have the imagination to ignore the text boxes calling link a he.

Go enjoy your female link. What's stopping ya.

Let's go one step further and just ask all female players to pretend they have penises so that they don't feel like the game isn't including them.

Problem solved!

 

[blankempathy]

To be fair, they use the Twilight Princess design, or a re-purposed version of that, for Smash. However it really doesn't matter as literally any version of Link coul be replaced in Smash and still represent all versions of Link equally, hell you could get rid of regular Link and only have Toon Link, and that'd still easily represent all versions of Link; wouldn't even have to call him Toon Link.

Yup you are correct. My bad. Point still stands though. He's generally just placed into a game as just Link.

 

[Thorakai]

Toon Link didn't change anything about Link, just the art style of the game. :/

I don't know, I did a bit of digging to see some reactions and some didn't seem fond that Link became a "sissy bitch." It was a big enough change to elicit a really, really strong reaction in some people. Some of the complaints are stylistic, others are definitely taking issue with the portrayal of Link.

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/official-zelda-bitch-thread.10015660/page-2

 

[blankempathy]

Twilight Princess Link is in Smash, as is Wind Waker Link as two separate characters.



His artwork would suggest that this Link is the Skyward Sword one.



You're playing as a brand new Link in Hyrule Warriors. You may notice he has a different backstory to the other ones.

I don't even think Hyrule Warriors is canon, at any rate.

Doesn't matter if its canon but my point if that hes in these games because hes more then just some avatar character.

 

[Dice//]

Actually, I completely understand why some people would want to make Link a girl. There are very few female MC's in video games, Link has never had that much of a personality, he technically is someone different every time, it would be refreshing for the series, etc. I understand those points.

I call you "closed-minded" because you completely reject or ignore any and all arguments for the opposite viewpoint. Several times in this thread you and others have said that there is "no reason" for Link to not become a girl, which means that you don't even acknowledge the existence of an opposing viewpoint. That's the definition of closed-minded.

Until you concede that it is okay for people to view Link as just one character, then I will continue to call you closed-minded.

AND THE POT CALLED THE KETTLE BLACK. You're just *saying* "I see it your way" but there's so much more going on to simply shut it all down and call me closed minded over something so silly.

I don't see Link as one character. Smash Bros does a (vague and concise) way of showing that with two types of Link in different forms, semi-different arsenal, and different presentations (one is cartooney in both artistic style and basic reactionary personality and the other less-so). I see Link as an archetype for "hero", but not as the same person or character.

I don't DENY it, I just don't agree with it

These people...

...have been through different stories.

And seriously...close minded? Talk about making mountains from molehills here.

With your first paragraph in mind, I don't see what the problem is then.

 

[Deviruki]

Let's go one step further and just ask all female players to pretend they have penises so that they don't feel like the game isn't including them.

Problem solved!

^. Was waiting for someone to bring that up.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Again, I'm calling you out.

You're ignoring what I have been saying to fit your convenient narrative.

Which Link is being used in Smash?

Which Link is in Mario Kart?

They are using specific Links from specific entries of The Legend of Zelda.

They are not using the omnipresent "Link" that hovers over the series, because there is none. They are using representatives of their respective games.

Yes because in Mario Kart and in Smash they make a point to specify which version they're using, I mean even his trophy in Smash makes a point to go out of it's way to point out which one it is, and the Toon Link trophy definitely doesn't refer to regular Link as Toon Link's "counterpart."

I don't know, I did a bit of digging to see some reactions and some didn't seem fond that Link became a "sissy bitch." It was a big enough change to elicit a really, really strong reaction in some people. Some of the complaints are stylistic, others are definitely taking issue with the portrayal of Link.

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/official-zelda-bitch-thread.10015660/page-2

Those reactions are nice, but it doesn't mean the change from OOT to WW, changed anything about Link, just the art style, a change like the one in the thread is literally changing the character independent of any art style.

 

[Weiss]

Doesn't matter if its canon but my point if that hes in these games because hes more then just some avatar character.

And the point I was actually making is that Link could appear as a woman in Smash and Mario Kart and literally nothing would change. Because Link is an avatar with no defining traits, it's just that until now he's been a dude.

 

[balgajo]

Actually, I completely understand why some people would want to make Link a girl. There are very few female MC's in video games, Link has never had that much of a personality, he technically is someone different every time, it would be refreshing for the series, etc. I understand those points.

I call you "closed-minded" because you completely reject or ignore any and all arguments for the opposite viewpoint. Several times in this thread you and others have said that there is "no reason" for Link to not become a girl, which means that you don't even acknowledge the existence of an opposing viewpoint. That's the definition of closed-minded.

Until you concede that it is okay for people to view Link as just one character, then I will continue to call you closed-minded.

Exactly this...

 

[rex]

Again, I'm calling you out.

You're ignoring what I have been saying to fit your convenient narrative.

Which Link is being used in Smash?

Which Link is in Mario Kart?

They are using specific Links from specific entries of The Legend of Zelda.

They are not using the omnipresent "Link" that hovers over the series, because there is none. They are using representatives of their respective games.

Actually they tend to use the most recent or most popular design because this is about making money for nintendo.

Im sorry but nintendo doesn't care about your archetypes. Im still not sure if you understand that.

 

[Nekofrog]

Actually they tend to use the most recent or most popular design because this is about making money for nintendo.

Im sorry but nintendo doesn't care about your archetypes. Im still not sure if you understand that.

It's funny you say this, while telling me to ignore direct quotes from Miyamoto and Aonuma that disprove what you are saying.

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

Mario transforms into a boo in one game, and Sonic into a Werehog (whatever the hell that is) in another, are you saying that we need a Maria and Sonia (where my Underground fans at?)?

I'm not saying We need one, I also don't see any harm in it, links taken on tons of different forms and appearances making one a women doesn't seem to big of a deal, and hey , if it didn't work for some reason they don't have to stick to it as they can always go back to guy-link for the next one

 

[Mango The Magician]

And the point I was actually making is that Link could appear as a woman in Smash and Mario Kart and literally nothing would change. Because Link is an avatar with no defining traits, it's just that until now he's been a dude.

If one Link is enough to represent Link entirely in Mario Kart, than he cannot not have any defining traits.

I'm not saying We need one, I also don't see any harm in it, links taken on tons of different forms and appearances making one a women doesn't seem to big of a deal, and hey , if it didn't work for some reason there's always guy-link

Those different forms and appearances are no different than the different forms and appearance that other characters who aren't like Link have taken; just because the shade of his hair color has been altered slightly doesn't mean a change as grand as the one presented would be welcomed the same way.

 

[Weiss]

If one Link is enough to represent Link entirely in Mario Kart, than he cannot not have any defining traits.

Except he's not representing Link in the entirety of the character. Just Skyward Sword.

 

[Sami+]

Actually they tend to use the most recent or most popular design because this is about making money for nintendo.

Im sorry but nintendo doesn't care about your archetypes. Im still not sure if you understand that.

You... you are aware he's not making this concept up, right? The actual creators behind the character and games have said on numerous occasions that it's not just one guy.

You're telling him Nintendo doesn't care about their own concept.

 

[zhorkat]

Then why is he in smash? Why does he cameo in mario kart? Why did they spin off a game with hyrule warriors and include him if hes just an avatar character? Especially in Hyrule warriors which lets you choose from many other different LoZ characters.

Would you say that the Villager from Animal Crossing is a character or an avatar thing?

 

[blankempathy]

Again, I'm calling you out.

You're ignoring what I have been saying to fit your convenient narrative.

Which Link is being used in Smash?

Which Link is in Mario Kart?

They are using specific Links from specific entries of The Legend of Zelda.

They are not using the omnipresent "Link" that hovers over the series, because there is none. They are using representatives of their respective games.

All variants of link are still link. Theres no "master" link. Theres just link. Hes updated usually to fit which game just released most of the time. Until the timeline came into play no one regarded link as not the same entity but some how that changes things. Even though Links been around for many years before the timeline somehow now every link is completely separate from each other. If they threw a timeline into mario saying that the mario games before the 64 were in another timeline would that make them a different character? No they'd still all be mario. Just like every link is link. How is that so hard to understand? When someone asks you who your favorite Ninja turtle do you say "its leonardo from the first movie." No it would be "its leonardo" Its the same deal here.

 

[rex]

It's funny you say this, while telling me to ignore direct quotes from Miyamoto and Aonuma that disprove what you are saying.

Correct. Nintendo hasn't actually made good on their supposed aspirations for link being an avatar. That aspect is virtually absent from the entire series.

 

[Deviruki]

You... you are aware he's not making this concept up, right? The actual creators behind the character and games have said on numerous occasions that it's not just one guy.

You're telling him Nintendo doesn't care about their own concept.

Bruh, this has been mentioned in the tens of pages beforehand. We're all talking to brick walls.

Let's just go eat turkey.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Except he's not representing Link in the entirety of the character. Just Skyward Sword.

Which is why the DLC was marketed as Skyward Sword X Mario Kart, not The Legend of Zelda X Mario Kart, or why the corresponding track for MK is not a mixture of TP, ST, and maybe OOT3D, it's Skyloft, or why the kart made for "Link" is shaped like a Loftwing and not Epona.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

Im also wondering, if link is just a nameless, faceless, genderless avatar which we inhabit while playing zelda, then what exactly is the problem? You should be able to enjoy your adventure as a female link right now.

Enter your name of choice, and admire links feminine features. There's no love story here. And we're a progressive society anyway so skyward sword shouldn't be a problem.

And i know you have the imagination to ignore the text boxes calling link a he.

Go enjoy your female link. What's stopping ya.

So if a young girl or a young boy without white skin asked you why the hero can have their name but can't look like them, instead of thinking about the benefits of diversity in representation in media and saying "good question," you'd tell them "lol deal with it use your imagination."

Here is a (paraphrased) quote from, of all people, the Chief of Australia's Army, Lieutenant General David Morrison, who last night gave an interview that touched on this topic:

If the stories that we are telling ourselves or about ourselves are exclusive, how do we then build an inclusive culture, one that respects women particularly, but also men and women with different heritages and backgrounds to us?

As has been repeatedly established in this thread, the Legend of Zelda series is particularly suited to having a diverse range of playable protagonists. If your reasons for opposing this boil down to "change makes me uncomfortable," then you may need to do some serious examination of your views and how you arrived at them, because you're opposing something that could actually be very beneficial to society as a whole.

 

[balgajo]

I don't know, I did a bit of digging to see some reactions and some didn't seem fond that Link became a "sissy bitch." It was a big enough change to elicit a really, really strong reaction in some people. Some of the complaints are stylistic, others are definitely taking issue with the portrayal of Link.

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/official-zelda-bitch-thread.10015660/page-2

While I'm totally against Link being a girl there's a part of me wanting that to happen just to see the world on fire like that again. Some of my old friends abandoned Nintendo consoles after Wind Waker...lol

 

[crazy monkey]

No.

 

[Weiss]

Which is why the DLC was marketed as Skyward Sword X Mario Kart, not The Legend of Zelda X Mario Kart, or why the corresponding track for MK is not a mixture of TP, ST, and maybe OOT3D, it's Skyloft, or why the kart made for "Link" is shaped like a Loftwing and not Epona.

My mistake.

So he's an amalgamation of the general design of the character, plus some tidbits here and there. I don't see how that makes him as actualized a character as The Count of Monte Cristo.

 

[blankempathy]

Would you say that the Villager from Animal Crossing is a character or an avatar thing?

I'm sure if you could customize the villager they'd let you. Either way hes an avatar hence why hes merely called "villager" Thats why his/her costumes are typically not just costume changes but facial/hair features as well. However if you're trying to compare animal crossing and zelda you're kind off since animal crossing you have free reign to do your own thing and shape your own village.

 

[Sami+]

Correct. Nintendo hasn't actually made good on their supposed aspirations for link being an avatar. That aspect is virtually absent from the entire series.

So why is it shocking that some people want an avatar that better represents them?

Bruh, this has been mentioned in the tens of pages beforehand. We're all talking to brick walls.

Let's just go eat turkey.

I should probably do this.

 

[KenOD]

A Legend of Zelda game staring Zelda, in which she wears a green tunic and cap, uses the traditional Legend of Zelda combat (sword swing, boomarang, bow and arrows, bombs, etc.) and is the destined hero who saves the day would be acceptable to some who don't wish to see a female Link? I would be fine with that honestly, but I'm confused exactly how that is honestly any different from the idea of just a female Link.
Especially when one could just use the Name Entry selection to rename her Link (just as I renamed the male character "Link" as ZELDA to get the Second Quest in the original game) and get the exact same results.

It really is key by the road for some of us who would enjoy a female Link, be it for ourselves or others (my daughter in this case), that it still play like a Legend of Zelda game remember. Yes a Zelda or Shiek or Impa or Tetra game would be great with it's own distinct play style (and hopefully not like Tingle), but it wouldn't fulfil that desire many wish to have with the only change being a heroine of destiny/time/legend/wind/water/fire/earth/Go Planet. Small differences, like between Diddy Kong and Trixie Kong (Donkey Kong Country, not 64) or Mario and Peach in 3D World is okay I would think for quite a few people, but again as long as it still fulfilled those same desires many of go into when we play a Legend of Zelda game.

Everything i cited in my post has been pointed to as reasons why link can be female.

So, what exactly is the problem?

Links traits aren't gender specific, we're told. Entering your own name is evidence of him being an avatar, supposedly. And its been said that link has an androgynous look.

So what's stopping people from interpreting this open slate as a female?

Nothing, except a text box or two.

Good excuse to link this again. Made by a father who wanted to help his young girl get into a game where she could imagine a great female hero save the day.

http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2012/11/07/flip-all-the-pronouns/

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

While I'm totally against Link being a girl there's a part of me wanting that to happen just to see the world on fire like that again. Some of my old friends abandoned Nintendo consoles after Wind Waker...lol

I always think it's kind of weird when people want a change just to piss off other people. It seems like such a petty reason...

 

[Sami+]

ITT: The reason why 90% of video game protagonists are white males.

Genuine disbelief at shit like "it'd make me uncomfortable". WTF?

 

[zhorkat]

I'm sure if you could customize the villager they'd let you. Either way hes an avatar hence why hes merely called "villager" Thats why his/her costumes are typically not just costume changes but facial/hair features as well. However if you're trying to compare animal crossing and zelda you're kind off since animal crossing you have free reign to do your own thing and shape your own village.

So then the answer to why Link is in Smash and has a Mario Kart cameo if he's just an avatar is probably the same answer as to why the Villager is in Smash and has a Mario Kart cameo. The inclusion of the avatar helps to sell the game/DLC.

 

[Mango The Magician]

My mistake.

So he's an amalgamation of the general design of the character, plus some tidbits here and there. I don't see how that makes him as actualized a character as The Count of Monte Cristo.

No one is saying that each Link is the exact same person in every game within the lore, just that the difference in-between are not like the difference in-between say Naruto and Luffy from One Piece, they're all Link, at least outside of the lore, and that's how Nintendo markets the series and the characters including everyone else who repeats like Link (Zelda, Ganon, Ingo, Malon, Link's horse, the owl that advises Link, The King from WW, lots of WW characters actually, and so on.)

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

ITT: The reason why 90% of video game protagonists are white males.

Genuine disbelief at shit like "it'd make me uncomfortable". WTF?

Not really, unless you want to selectively read the posts that conform to your opinion and ignore all others. Not a SINGLE person who said they had a problem with a female main character in Zelda.

 

[balgajo]

I always think it's kind of weird when people want a change just to piss off other people. It seems like such a petty reason...

I really don't want, I would be one of the pissed people...XD
I wish I could see this hypothetical future just to measure the rage.

 

[Sami+]

No one is saying that each Link is the exact same person in every game within the lore, just that the difference in-between are not like the difference in-between say Naruto and Luffy from One Piece, they're all Link, at least outside of the lore, and that's how Nintendo markets the series and the characters including everyone else who repeats like Link (Zelda, Ganon, Ingo, Malon, Link's horse, the owl that advises Link, The King from WW, lots of WW characters actually, and so on.)

So how would a gender swap change this at all? She'd still be named Link, she'd still have the green tunic and Master Sword, she'd still have the Spirit of the Hero, and she'd still have the Triforce of Courage.

Unless of course Link's penis is just as essential to his character as the above traits, in which case I understand the issue. I don't really think that's the case here though.

 

[Dice//]

Not really, unless you want to selectively read the posts that conform to your opinion and ignore all others. Not a SINGLE person who said they had a problem with a female main character in Zelda.

Just not Link.

 

[rex]

You... you are aware he's not making this concept up, right? The actual creators behind the character and games have said on numerous occasions that it's not just one guy.

You're telling him Nintendo doesn't care about their own concept.

Miyamoto can say whatever he wants. The fact is they haven't treated link like an avatar, either inside the games or out. Hes been in non zelda games. Hes been in cartoons. Customization options are totally absent save for name entry. The hero storyline never leads anywhere except straight back to link.

If anything they've been moving towards giving link more personality, as in skyward sword.

What you're not seeing is that link serves as an avatar. But link, the character, supercedes that function in importance.

Nintendo statements say one thing. Their actions something else.

 

[Deviruki]

Not really, unless you want to selectively read the posts that conform to your opinion and ignore all others. Not a SINGLE person who said they had a problem with a female main character in Zelda.

I'm pretty sure we're all talking about Link though. As long as it isn't Link, it's fine.

 

[Sami+]

Not really, unless you want to selectively read the posts that conform to your opinion and ignore all others. Not a SINGLE person who said they had a problem with a female main character in Zelda.

She just can't be named Link is a boy and that is extremely important for reasons.

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

Those different forms and appearances are no different than the different forms and appearance that other characters who aren't like Link have taken; just because the shade of his hair color has been altered slightly doesn't mean a change as grand as the one presented would be welcomed the same way.

I Think that's underselling the differences between Links a bit much but that's beside the point

There are multiple Links and there are some minor differences between them, is gender that big of a difference ?

 

[balgajo]

So how would a gender swap change this at all? She'd still be named Link, she'd still have the green tunic and Master Sword, she'd still have the Spirit of the Hero, and she'd still have the Triforce of Courage.

Unless of course Link's penis is just as essential to his character as the above traits, in which case I understand the issue. I don't really think that's the case here though.

Link's penis is more important than Triforce of Courage. I mean, he had a penis more times than he had the Triforce of Courage...XD

 

[Dice//]

Link's penis is more important than Triforce of Courage. I mean, he had a penis more times than he had the Triforce of Courage...XD

Swing and a miss there.