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[Sami+]

Miyamoto can say whatever he wants. The fact is they haven't treated link like an avatar, either inside the games or out. Hes been in non zelda games. Hes been in cartoons. Customization options are totally absent save for name entry. The hero storyline never leads anywhere except straight back to link.

If anything they've been moving towards giving link more personality, as in skyward sword.

What you're not seeing is that link serves as an avatar. But link, the character, supercedes that function in importance.

Nintendo statements say one thing. Their actions something else.

Ok.

In that case, Nintendo's actions show that Link is not a single person and rather multiple people embodying the same spirit. Like people have been saying. Their actions show that "Excuse Me Princess" is not the same guy as "Great I'll Grab My Stuff" who is not the same person as "I am in Love with Ilia" who's completely different from "Zelda is my Secret Childhood Crush and wtf is an Ilia".

So by that logic the next one could be a girl. Because they're different people anyway.

 

[Auto-Reply]

Would I accept it? Yes I would, I don't understand some things about the Zelda games or it's storyline anyway. Even after all these years, there is some reborn-hero, everything repeats cycle in the game I never have tried to understand in detail. So if he's not the spike eared wood elf anymore then that would be just a part of it, I don't know why he is now a Gerudo woman... but there are probably some reasons for that and I don't really care enough to find out in detail.

 

[Shiokazu]

as longs as it doesnt hurts the lore or bends the rules of the legend. anything is game.

otherwise no, innovation, revolution and these lines of things are good, but only until they get to the boundary of being disrespectful to the magic that is The Legend of Zelda, cross that line and the entire series can go downhill.

it happened once, dont let it happen again.

 

[KenOD]

Would people buy a Legend of Zelda game in it with no Link at all, but still be about a green clothed hero who saves the day, destined to do so, with all the same style of combat and focus on puzzle solving? Is the name important at all in that specific regard?

How many would still just call that character Link even if the character name screen started off with "Sue" (a girl or a boy's name that)?

Gender not in question there, simply someone who isn't Link, but still look and do exactly what we expect from a Link in the previous games.

We have, after all, had two games with no Zelda at all outside of mere memories and those did well. Is someone specifically named Link, or marketed as Link anyroad, equally important?

 

[Mango The Magician]

A Legend of Zelda game staring Zelda, in which she wears a green tunic and cap, uses the traditional Legend of Zelda combat (sword swing, boomarang, bow and arrows, bombs, etc.) and is the destined hero who saves the day would be acceptable to some who don't wish to see a female Link? I would be fine with that honestly, but I'm confused exactly how that is honestly any different from the idea of just a female Link.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that, in fact it'd be a terrible disservice to both Link and Zelda if that happened; I very much prefer to have a Zelda game where both Link and Zelda are playable and each plays slightly different like Mario and Luigi in 3D Mario games or Mario and Peach in 3D World. Regardless, I definitely wouldn't want Zelda to dress like Link, partly because that's not Zelda, and also because much like in 3D World, I fucking love kicking ass while playing as a character in a dress. At the very least KenOD, I've warmed up to the idea of customization of Link, as I'd still get to play as the Link I love and the other side gets what they want.

So how would a gender swap change this at all? She'd still be named Link, she'd still have the green tunic and Master Sword, she'd still have the Spirit of the Hero, and she'd still have the Triforce of Courage.

Unless of course Link's penis is just as essential to his character as the above traits, in which case I understand the issue. I don't really think that's the case here though.

If the design look nearly identical to all other versions of Link than not much, but it sets a precedent that the differences in-between games can be single handly knocked down, and since literally any other change would be far more drastic (different hair color, eye color, skintone, race, clothing) I'm still against it.

I Think that's underselling the differences between Links a bit much but that's beside the point

There are multiple Links and there are some minor differences between them, is gender that big of a difference ?

I think you need to look again on the Link front, he's pretty similar throughout the entire series, gender probably wouldn't look that much different, but like I said ^up there it sets a bad precedent where things that significantly do not follow that design could come into play.

Would people buy a Legend of Zelda game in it with no Link at all, but still be about a green clothed hero who saves the day, destined to do so, with all the same style of combat and focus on puzzle solving? Is the name important at all in that specific regard?

How many would still just call that character Link even if the character name screen started off with "Sue" (a girl or a boy's name that)?

Gender not in question there, simply someone who isn't Link, but still look and do exactly what we expect from a Link in the previous games.

We have, after all, had two games with no Zelda at all outside of mere memories and those did well. Is someone specifically named Link, or marketed as Link anyroad, equally important?

I'm open to a game with Zelda or a new character, I'd prefer new character looked new and weren't piggybacking off designs of other characters. (do not bring up the lore, I'm talking from a perspective outside of it. Referring to Link as singular from a marketing/design perspective.)

 

[blankempathy]

So then the answer to why Link is in Smash and has a Mario Kart cameo if he's just an avatar is probably the same answer as to why the Villager is in Smash and has a Mario Kart cameo. The inclusion of the avatar helps to sell the game/DLC.

Except your missing my initial rebuttal to the point that I was saying Link is more then just the avatar character in the legend of zelda games. Hes a character on his own just like the villager is. The villager was simply designed to be different genders and look different hence why his costumes reflect that. Link in smash merely has outfit changes or "diety" versions of himself/dark link. Thats because Link is more then an avatar like people want to claim he only is. The diety costume doesn't even make sense since it was in MM but they included it because it doesn't really matter because its still link.

 

[Nekofrog]

i'm done with this thread.

when the deniers are stating outright that miyamoto and aonuma's statements are wrong and THEIRS are right, you know they're just trolling

 

[Sami+]

I don't think anyone was suggesting that, in fact it'd be a terrible disservice to both Link and Zelda if that happened; I very much prefer to have a Zelda game where both Link and Zelda are playable and each plays slightly different like Mario and Luigi in 3D Mario games or Mario and Peach in 3D World. Regardless, I definitely wouldn't want Zelda to dress like Link, partly because that's not Zelda, and also because much like in 3D World, I fucking love kicking ass while playing as a character in a dress. At the very least KenOD, I've warmed up to the idea of customization of Link, as I'd still get to play as the Link I love and the other side gets what they want.

If the design look nearly identical to all other versions of Link than not much, but it sets a precedent that the differences in-between games can be single handly knocked down, and since literally any other change would be far more drastic (different hair color, eye color, skintone, race, clothing) I'm still against it.

I think you need to look again on the Link front, he's pretty similar throughout the entire series, gender probably wouldn't look that much different, but like I said ^up there it sets a bad precedent where things that significantly do not follow that design could come into play.

Pardon me if I'm not reading this right, but you're saying Link being a girl could lead down a slippery slope where, god forbid, his skin tone changes... right?

His eye color has changed before. His hair color has changed numerous times. His clothes change slightly every time. What makes Link iconic is the sword, shield, and green tunic. The fact that he's still instantly recognizable as a cartoon is a testament to this.

I'm not trying to harass you or anything, but could you please give even one single solitary reason why he has to be white?

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

I think you need to look again on the Link front, he's pretty similar throughout the entire series, gender probably wouldn't look that much different, but like I said ^up there it sets a bad precedent where things that significantly do not follow that design could come into play.

I don't want to sound like an ass and maybe I'm miss reading you but
That's a pretty crabby argument
They can't change Links gender because then they might change a whole bunch of other things that have nothing to do with gender ?
What ?

 

[Mango The Magician]

Except your missing my initial rebuttal to the point that I was saying Link is more then just the avatar character in the legend of zelda games. Hes a character on his own just like the villager is. The villager was simply designed to be different genders and look different hence why his costumes reflect that. Link in smash merely has outfit changes or "diety" versions of himself/dark link. Thats because Link is more then an avatar like people want to claim he only is. The diety costume doesn't even make sense since it was in MM but they included it because it doesn't really matter because its still link.

Hell the Fierce Deity costume is just as accurate as it would be if it was on Toon Link, aka it doesn't matter as they're all equally Link, and that's not even to mention the Skyloft costume.

I really don't know why this is so hard to grasp.

 

[Nerokis]

So I'm curious, how jarring was this to those with a rigid conception of Link as "one character"?

The spirit of Link's ancestor, the Hero of Time, teaches him his secrets. Ever since returning to the Child Era, the swordsman has lamented the fact that he was not remembered as a hero. This is the reason he passes down the proof of his courage and his secret techniques to the Link of this era, addressing him as "son."

 

[rex]

So if a young girl or a young boy without white skin asked you why the hero can have their name but can't look like them, instead of thinking about the benefits of diversity in representation in media and saying "good question," you'd tell them "lol deal with it use your imagination."

Here is a (paraphrased) quote from, of all people, the Chief of Australia's Army, Lieutenant General David Morrison, who last night gave an interview that touched on this topic:

As has been repeatedly established in this thread, the Legend of Zelda series is particularly suited to having a diverse range of playable protagonists. If your reasons for opposing this boil down to "change makes me uncomfortable," then you may need to do some serious examination of your views and how you arrived at them, because you're opposing something that could actually be very beneficial to society as a whole.

Ok, i understand my statement was crass and i apologize for being an idiot.

The point i was trying to make, albeit clumsily and probably offensively, is that specific arguments have been used as to why link can be female that i believe were made disingenuously.

Specifically, no love story, androgynous looks, and name entry have all been pointed to as evidence of links malleability.

What i was trying to do is point out that those factors, presumably, exist already in most zelda games. Yet, we all agree that link is a guy, because nintendo told us so in the text.

If such a simple thing like that can overpower all these other elements, then those things weren't good reasons to make link an avatar anyway. In other words, people are grasping at straws here.

 

[zhorkat]

Except your missing my initial rebuttal to the point that I was saying Link is more then just the avatar character in the legend of zelda games. Hes a character on his own just like the villager is. The villager was simply designed to be different genders and look different hence why his costumes reflect that. Link in smash merely has outfit changes or "diety" versions of himself/dark link. Thats because Link is more then an avatar like people want to claim he only is. The diety costume doesn't even make sense since it was in MM but they included it because it doesn't really matter because its still link.

The Villager is a character on his own? Is the Villager both that and an avatar? If the Villager is a character despite you being able to change gender and hair and clothes, why can Link not also be a character despite there being differently gendered versions of Link?

 

[blankempathy]

i'm done with this thread.

when the deniers are stating outright that miyamoto and aonuma's statements are wrong and THEIRS are right, you know they're just trolling

Except no one really said that. People are saying that Link is more then just an avatar character. Hes a character on his own. You're the one who is denying this. You are completely closed off to the idea of having a different main character or zelda because its a cop out. Yet that would add more to the story then simply making link a girl. I mean I love the LoZ games but their stories arent exactly their strongest point so having to come up with something clever in order to make zelda/a female protagonist thats not link and would take more effort then "well now links a girl".

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

So I'm curious, how jarring was this to those with a rigid conception of Link as "one character"?

What are you getting at exactly? No one thinks it's actually ONE Link throughout the series...I mean, we literally have references to previous Links in the games. We have a timeline. What was this post about?

 

[Mango The Magician]

Pardon me if I'm not reading this right, but you're saying Link being a girl could lead down a slippery slope where, god forbid, his skin tone changes... right?

His eye color has changed before. His hair color has changed numerous times. His clothes change slightly every time. What makes Link iconic is the sword, shield, and green tunic. The fact that he's still instantly recognizable as a cartoon is a testament to this.

I'm not trying to harass you or anything, but could you please give even one single solitary reason why he has to be white?

When has the eye color changed? And the Hairs never changed from the blond spectrum unless you consider other shades significant in which I'd point to a billion other characters that have change the color of something, some that don't even repeat or whatever like Link. As for the clothes, well not really, they're all basically the same thing. As for the 'slippery slope' well, you asked what a gender would change about his overarching design, I said probably not much, but if all Links share the same gender and that can be torn away then shit that would radically change his overarching design may also be added, and I'm afraid of this.

I don't want to sound like an ass and maybe I'm miss reading you but
That's a pretty crabby argument
They can't change Links gender because then they might change a whole bunch of other things that have nothing to do with gender ?
What ?

Perhaps, it's just my opinion/fear though.

 

[blankempathy]

The Villager is a character on his own? Is the Villager both that and an avatar? If the Villager is a character despite you being able to change gender and hair and clothes, why can Link not also be a character despite there being differently gendered versions of Link?

Because Link is an established character for around 28 years. The villager started out as customizable character. The villager doesn't have a set default look except for now maybe in smash. Link has. Its evolved over the years but its stayed pretty consistent.

 

[Mango The Magician]

So I'm curious, how jarring was this to those with a rigid conception of Link as "one character"?

It wasn't at all jarring, it doesn't mean that on a conceptual level above the lore that I don't view him as a single character. In fact, as an excerpt from one of the new Nintendo created sites puts it.

http://play.nintendo.com/themes/friends/link/

Link
Sometimes he’s an adult and sometimes he’s a kid, but he’s always the legendary hero of Hyrule.
He has his trusty shield and Master Sword, but Link relies mainly on courage and cleverness to make his way through puzzling dungeons and exciting battles.

 

[Dice//]

So I'm curious, how jarring was this to those with a rigid conception of Link as "one character"?

Yeah I really don't get this "one Link" idea. There is so little to attest to that when each seem to be designed or referenced with a "specific Link" in mind.

Smash's Link (64/GC): OoT
Smash's Link (Wii/U): TP
Young Link: MM/OoT kid
Toon Link: WW
ALBW: Handhelds (and, from original/early concept art) SNES Link
Mario Kart: Skyward (they both have those somewhat blocky 3D).

It wasn't at all jarring, it doesn't mean that on a conceptual level above the lore that I don't view him as a single character. In fact, as an excerpt from one of the new Nintendo created sites puts it.

http://play.nintendo.com/themes/friends/link/

Oof, so now we're really drawing at straws. Denying source material one minute, then using a website advert blurb another.

 

[FlowersisBritish]

What does making him a girl really change? Wind Waker changed Zelda to a badass pirate with a more active role in the story and thus her own agency, but it still fell into the stories own classic tropes. Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword both experimented with differing antagonists, and Zelda's own involvement in the story, but ultimately it fell into the same old formula again and again. I don't think Zelda fans are wrong to be against changing Link to a girl, because it's ultimately(Like Zelda many changes) not that big and would probably leave the story to falling into the same old story, just with a girl in the lead. Zelda fans have been clamouring for a major mix up forever, and we haven't been getting one. If Nintendo said "hey, links a girl!" and everyone applauded it as a huge change, that's kind of a spit in the face, because it's really not that big a change and she'll still fight Ganondorf and it will still be the same story.

So, instead of just changing Link to a girl, what if they were gonna do a weird Majora's Mask type thing again? What if Nintendo was like "So Link's a girl, Zelda's not in the story, and Link's literally falling through a well the entire time." That be cool. I'd be for that. It be different, and the gender change would be part of a greater structural change allowing other crazy changes too(Zelda/Impa anyone?)

Also out of curiousity, Who'd be for a transman Zelda? Start off a girl then he goes "Fuck that I'm a boy and the goddamn hero of time!" that'd be cool to see.

 

[Nerokis]

What are you getting at exactly? No one thinks it's actually ONE Link throughout the series...I mean, we literally have references to previous Links in the games. We have a timeline. What was this post about?

This specific thread. I mean, have you been reading it? Underemphasizing the lore behind the character has been one of the most constant angles, giving the impression that it has been this thing so far beneath the surface as to be almost irrelevant to how one formulates their conception of Link. But no, there it is, right there, the fact that these are all separate individuals, distinct in a number of ways. Letting that sink in seems to be a prerequisite to understanding why Link could easily work as a girl, I would say. Not that I expect sudden widespread agreement.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Link is a white elf man and don't you forget it

 

[daxy]

That would be cool, even though Link's own background is the most irrelevant thing in the entire Zelda series. I wouldn't mind a more character-focused game.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

This specific thread. I mean, have you been reading it? Underemphasizing the lore behind the character has been one of the most constant angles, giving the impression that it has been this thing so far beneath the surface as to be almost irrelevant to how one formulates their conception of Link. But no, there it is, right there, the fact that these are all separate individuals, distinct in a number of ways. Letting that sink in seems to be a prerequisite to understanding why Link could easily work as a girl, I would say. Not that I expect sudden widespread agreement.

But it doesn't change anything. Link still has always remained a blond boy with blue eyes. The only times he didn't was for the WW based Zeldas, but that was more of a stylistic choice since everyone has black eyes

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

As for the 'slippery slope' well, you asked what a gender would change about his overarching design, I said probably not much, but if all Links share the same gender and that can be torn away then shit that would radically change his overarching design.

Perhaps, it's just my opinion/fear though.

I think you might be misinterpreting what people mean by this change. They don't mean retroactively applying it to all incarnations of the character, just that gender can be something that does ( or does not) change from game to game, no different from links age, height, hair colour etc

 

[Mango The Magician]

Yeah I really don't get this "one Link" idea. There is so little to attest to that when each seem to be designed or referenced with a "specific Link" in mind.

Smash's Link (64/GC): OoT
Smash's Link (Wii/U): TP
Young Link: MM/OoT kid
Toon Link: WW
ALBW: Handhelds (and, from original/early concept art) SNES Link
Mario Kart: Skyward (they both have those somewhat blocky 3D).

Oof, so now we're really drawing at straws. Denying source material one minute, then using a website advert blurb another.

Let me put this in the most simplistic way I can.

Within the lore: Multiple characters all canonically called Link.
Outside the lore: singular character called Link with multiple slight redesigns that are on the same level as Classic Sonic vs Modern Sonic.

Outside the lore is what is used in marketing, it's what the character is outside of his own games, it's why the picture you posted shows Link in his SS form being attributed to the horse Epona despite never ever using a horse or interacting with Epona, or why in HW each version of Link and Zelda are just costumes and not new characters each with their own play style. Outside of the lore Link is collectively Link, and all of versions of him are equally Link with no need to discern which one is being used as they're all Link.

I think you might be misinterpreting what people mean by this change. They don't mean retroactively applying it to all incarnations of the character, just that gender can be something that does ( or does not) change from game to game, no different from links age, height, hair colour etc

No I understand the argument, I just do not think gender is one of the things that can change as it conflicts with what I consider Outside of the lore Link.

 

[blankempathy]

Yeah I really don't get this "one Link" idea. There is so little to attest to that when each seem to be designed or referenced with a "specific Link" in mind.

Smash's Link (64/GC): OoT
Smash's Link (Wii/U): TP
Young Link: MM/OoT kid
Toon Link: WW
ALBW: Handhelds (and, from original/early concept art) SNES Link
Mario Kart: Skyward (they both have those somewhat blocky 3D).

Characters change over the years? Did Micky mouse and mario not change? Its simply updating your designs. Also Tp link in smash u because its probably more in line with Zelda's design. Also Zelda uses moves from different games in that one. Even items appear from different zelda games in smash.

 

[rex]

Ok.

In that case, Nintendo's actions show that Link is not a single person and rather multiple people embodying the same spirit. Like people have been saying. Their actions show that "Excuse Me Princess" is not the same guy as "Great I'll Grab My Stuff" who is not the same person as "I am in Love with Ilia" who's completely different from "Zelda is my Secret Childhood Crush and wtf is an Ilia".

So by that logic the next one could be a girl. Because they're different people anyway.

We're talking past eachother.

I am saying that as a real world practical matter every piece of evidence you point to is meaningless. It is an excuse to get link into these games. Do you disagree with that conclusion?

If your point is that there is no law of the universe preventing nintendo from creating a drawing of an elven girl dressed in green and telling us its link then your right. If your point is that the lore allows it id probably go along with that.

But you cant pretend that the lore is good reason to change it, because you are literally reversing whats important in the equation.

 

[Deviruki]

And the Hairs never changed from the blond spectrum unless you consider other shades significant in which I'd point to a billion other characters that have change the color of something, some that don't even repeat or whatever like Link.

I will point out that while hair color changes have been from brown to blonde, his hair was pink in LTTP.
Granted, it was a palette issue.

 

[zhorkat]

Because Link is an established character for around 28 years. The villager started out as customizable character. The villager doesn't have a set default look except for now maybe in smash. Link has. Its evolved over the years but its stayed pretty consistent.

So you feel that the Link from Skyward Sword is the same character as the Link from Ocarina of Time? Do you feel that the Clark Kent in the recent movie Man of Steel is an 80-ish year old character that is the same character as the Clark Kent from the TV show Smallville?

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

I will point out that while hair color changes have been from brown to blonde, his hair was pink in LTTP.

The sprite was pink. His artwork's hair color was the exact same as in every other game, something between dirty blond and blond

 

[blankempathy]

So you feel that the Link from Skyward Sword is the same character as the Link from Ocarina of Time? Do you feel that the Clark Kent in the recent movie Man of Steel is an 80-ish year old character that is the same character as the Clark Kent from the TV show Smallville?

No but I think Clark kent is clark kent just like superman is superman. Or in the ninja turtles case each own is themselves. I'm not even going to go in to comic books though because they're storylines can be so convoluted that im sure you'll find some character thats had their genders changed in there. Most of the time their appearance doesn't change though. Unless we go into parallel dimensions Superman and clark kent are going to look the same even across multiple storylines. Who's your favorite Ninja turtle?

 

[rex]

George Lucas: star wars was always about the story of anakin skywalker.

Lots of people in this thread must believe him. Doesnt matter what he actually put in the movies right. He said it you see. Just like Saint Miyamoto

 

[Mango The Magician]

I will point out that while hair color changes have been from brown to blonde, his hair was pink in LTTP.
Granted, it was a palette issue.

Basically this... (thanks Beats. )

The sprite was pink. His artwork's hair color was the exact same as in every other game, something between dirty blond and blond

 

[Deviruki]

The sprite was pink. His artwork's hair color was the exact same as in every other game, something between dirty blond and blond

Yeah, just remembered it was a palette issue. Regardless, the clothes and gear he has is what defines him. I fail to see how gender is an issue of any kind when it comes to Link's function as a character.

 

[Sami+]

When has the eye color changed? And the Hairs never changed from the blond spectrum unless you consider other shades significant in which I'd point to a billion other characters that have change the color of something, some that don't even repeat or whatever like Link. As for the clothes, well not really, they're all basically the same thing. As for the 'slippery slope' well, you asked what a gender would change about his overarching design, I said probably not much, but if all Links share the same gender and that can be torn away then shit that would radically change his overarching design may also be added, and I'm afraid of this.

I'd hate to harbor a mindset where Link being black is genuinely scary.

As for your examples, his eyes were black in TWW. If you want to argue that the very, very light blue shading in-game still counts as blue in the same way as the other games (despite not being in any official art), I'll point to both of the DS games. His eyes have a brown hue to them in Spirit Tracks' art. Mind you, this is a detail I never actually noticed before searching for it. His clothes change with every title - it's a green tunic every time, but the actual design is different. It's certainly a bigger physical change than skin tone would be.

 

[PKrockin]

But it doesn't change anything. Link still has always remained a blond boy with blue eyes. The only times he didn't was for the WW based Zeldas, but that was more of a stylistic choice since everyone has black eyes

He had brown hair in Zelda 1 and 2. He was right handed in SS. The developers stated WW Link has black eyes grading to green.

No need to argue whether you think the dev's opinion doesn't matter when it comes to canon (lol) or what exactly you consider dark blonde or dirty blonde, Skyward Sword alone shows Link can have differing physical attributes besides age or art style.

 

[Sami+]

We're talking past eachother.

I am saying that as a real world practical matter every piece of evidence you point to is meaningless. It is an excuse to get link into these games. Do you disagree with that conclusion?

If your point is that there is no law of the universe preventing nintendo from creating a drawing of an elven girl dressed in green and telling us its link then your right. If your point is that the lore allows it id probably go along with that.

But you cant pretend that the lore is good reason to change it, because you are literally reversing whats important in the equation.

Yes, the important part of the equation is that Nintendo's handling of the franchise is exclusionary and it's becoming less and less acceptable with each passing game. The fact that the lore and their official statements allows for and even encourages such a change is only more reason to desire it.

I'm not pretending the lore is the reason it should be changed - I'm saying that the fact that it should be changed is the reason why it should be changed, and the lore would not suffer for it in the slightest.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

George Lucas: star wars was always about the story of anakin skywalker.

Lots of people in this thread must believe him. Doesnt matter what he actually put in the movies right. He said it you see. Just like Saint Miyamoto

I mean...he wasn't wrong. Anakin is the only character to appear in all the movies. It is very much about him, his decline into the dark side (Vader) and redemption in Return of the Jedi

 

[blankempathy]

He had brown hair in Zelda 1 and 2. He was right handed in SS. The developers stated WW Link has black eyes grading to green.

To be fair a character can be updated over the years. We don't really see his brown shield with a cross on it either do we? Links right handed in SS because of the motion + controls. Same reason in the TP version on the wii hes right handed.

 

[Nerokis]

But it doesn't change anything. Link still has always remained a blond boy with blue eyes. The only times he didn't was for the WW based Zeldas, but that was more of a stylistic choice since everyone has black eyes

It remains important context that some refuse to acknowledge. Yes, Link has adhered to this general overall design for a long time, with variances here and there. This single fact, though, can only possibly have so much currency. I mean, it took over a decade to introduce the concept of adult Link to the franchise, but now it is key to how we see the character. Clearly there are separate reasons it has taken so much longer to introduce the concept of a female Link, but is there any reason doing so wouldn't make absolute, complete, perfect sense?

So I think that is a point of disagreement here. We see the "groundwork" differently. Yes, of course there is a strong precedent for Link being a guy, again and again and again. The groundwork is also there, though, to seamlessly introduce a version of Link that happens to be a woman. For some, it is the precedent that resonates more; for others, it is the fact that Link reincarnating (or whatever!) as a woman would fit perfectly within the overall structure of the character.

I mean, I don't even see a point in arguing how much Link has changed game to game or time period to time period. The fact is that how we see him has changed. Let's say Toon Link is simply a cell shaded, cartoony version of the Link we all know and love. Nonetheless, introducing that design was a bold move that changed the parameters for how we envision the character.

Introducing a female Link wouldn't be so different.

 

[blankempathy]

It remains important context that some refuse to acknowledge. Yes, Link has adhered to this general overall design for a long time, with variances here and there. This single fact, though, can only possibly have so much currency. I mean, it took over a decade to introduce the concept of adult Link to the franchise, but now it is key to how we see the character. Clearly there are separate reasons it has taken so much longer to introduce the concept of a female Link, but is there any reason doing so wouldn't make absolute, complete, perfect sense?

So I think that is a point of disagreement here. We see the "groundwork" differently. Yes, of course there is a strong precedent for Link being a guy, again and again and again. The groundwork is also there, though, to seamlessly introduce a version of Link that happens to be a woman. For some, it is the precedent that resonates more; for others, it is the fact that Link reincarnating (or whatever!) as a woman would fit perfectly within the overall structure of the character.

I mean, I don't even see a point in arguing how much Link has changed game to game or time period to time period. The fact is that how we see him has changed. Let's say Toon Link is simply a cell shaded, cartoony version of the Link we all know and love. Nonetheless, introducing that design was a bold move that changed the parameters for how we envision the character.

Introducing a female Link wouldn't be so different.

Except chibi/cartoon variants aren't exactly a bold move. For a game style? Yes but hes still the same character just made to fit within that world. Everyone looks different in the ww timeline.

 

[rex]

Yes, the important part of the equation is that Nintendo's handling of the franchise is exclusionary and it's becoming less and less acceptable with each passing game. The fact that the lore and their official statements allows for and even encourages such a change is only more reason to desire it.

I'm not pretending the lore is the reason it should be changed - I'm saying that the fact that it should be changed is the reason why it should be changed, and the lore would not suffer for it in the slightest.

Finally, an argument that makes sense, even if i disagree with it.

 

[zhorkat]

No but I think Clark kent is clark kent just like superman is superman. Or in the ninja turtles case each own is themselves. I'm not even going to go in to comic books though because they're storylines can be so convoluted that im sure you'll find some character thats had their genders changed in there. Most of the time their appearance doesn't change though. Unless we go into parallel dimensions Superman and clark kent are going to look the same even across multiple storylines. Who's your favorite Ninja turtle?

You seem to be acknowledging that the concept of Link allows for multiple characters that are different from each other, in which case why is it not okay for one of those differences to be gender?

 

[rex]

I mean...he wasn't wrong. Anakin is the only character to appear in all the movies. It is very much about him, his decline into the dark side (Vader) and redemption in Return of the Jedi

Come on now...

 

[Mango The Magician]

I'd hate to harbor a mindset where Link being black is genuinely scary.

As for your examples, his eyes were black in TWW. If you want to argue that the very, very light blue shading in-game still counts as blue in the same way as the other games (despite not being in any official art), I'll point to both of the DS games. His eyes have a brown hue to them in Spirit Tracks' art. Mind you, this is a detail I never actually noticed before searching for it. His clothes change with every title - it's a green tunic every time, but the actual design is different. It's certainly a bigger physical change than skin tone would be.

He had brown hair in Zelda 1 and 2. He was right handed in SS. The developers stated WW Link has black eyes grading to green.

To both of you, Toon Link's eye colors are not actually black it's an art style thing, I mean unless you consider Classic Sonic's eyes as canonically black despite that we now know that they're green or Paper Mario's eyes black despite knowing that Mario's eyes are blue. As for the color it shades to in WW, Shiggy said greenish not green, the actual color is a dark cyan which can easily be considered blue just as much as it can be considered green, so yeah.

As for the tunic well take a look at this..

all the links on the top (Classic) have the same tunic, except the last two which were made specifically to make the Classic Link design meld better with the Modern Link, Modern Link all practically started with OOT Link and evolved from there with SS and TP being practically the same thing, and Toon Link well never changes.

I know there's a piece of artwork somewhere that helps illustrate this better but I can't find it so hold on for a while.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

Come on now...

Are there people who disagree with this? I mean, take out all the force and empire and Luke stuff and it's really about Anakin. Yeah, Luke was the main character of the old trilogy, but at it's core it's Anakin's story.

 

[Nerokis]

Except chibi/cartoon variants aren't exactly a bold move. For a game style? Yes but hes still the same character just made to fit within that world. Everyone looks different in the ww timeline.

I don't think you remember how jarring so many people found going from OoT Link to WW Link. I'm pretty sure changing Link's tunic, eye color, or whatever else would have resulted in less of an outcry than the direction they went with WW. The massive aesthetic difference introduced an entirely new way for people to imagine Link. I'd say that's pretty bold.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

Ok, i understand my statement was crass and i apologize for being an idiot.

The point i was trying to make, albeit clumsily and probably offensively, is that specific arguments have been used as to why link can be female that i believe were made disingenuously.

Specifically, no love story, androgynous looks, and name entry have all been pointed to as evidence of links malleability.

What i was trying to do is point out that those factors, presumably, exist already in most zelda games. Yet, we all agree that link is a guy, because nintendo told us so in the text.

If such a simple thing like that can overpower all these other elements, then those things weren't good reasons to make link an avatar anyway. In other words, people are grasping at straws here.

Good on you for recognising the issue with your earlier remarks. Sorry but I'm really not following what you're saying in the bolded section at all. No-one is saying that individual Links aren't all male characters, just that they don't have to be. It's not about "making Link into an avatar" either, because Link is an archetype, not a character, but the individual representations of that archetype are already fairly blank slates. If every single Link was characterised in such a way that masculinity could be said to be a defining part of the archetype, then you could say that although technically a new Link could be female, it wouldn't fit with the character. As it stands though, most representations of Link are barely developed as characters, and masculinity is hardly a defining feature when they are.

Basically, the factors you're listing are different parts of the same conversation; some are about the impacts (or lack thereof) of making such a change, others about why such a change is a good idea. If I were to break down my own viewpoint (arguing that Link's gender and skin colour should be customisable by the player) it'd be something like this:
Why - Diversity is needed. It would also better fulfil the developer's stated goal of allowing the player to feel like they are the character.

What are the downsides - None. Link is an archetype with numerous independent depictions, not a character, so no reboot of continuity or abandonment of previous character development would be required. Visual design wouldn't change much at all. Story and gameplay would be similarly unaffected partly because, as mentioned, Nintendo already design the games with the goal of player projection in mind.

 

[blankempathy]

You seem to be acknowledging that the concept of Link allows for multiple characters that are different from each other, in which case why is it not okay for one of those differences to be gender?

I never said they can't change the character. They can do whatever they want its not in my hands to control. I said they shouldn't make him a female because again theres simply no reason to change an established character. I've said that Link, even with multiple versions of him is still a singular entity that even though updated is the same. I feel like I'm the only one really putting thought into this in regards to what changing his character actually does. If you simply make him a female without acknowledging that hes a girl then its lazy. I think there should be more thought into just "well i want him to be a girl so lets make him one" Don't change characters just for the sake of change. Put meaning behind those choices. No one arguing for the change has said anything besides "why cant he be a girl". So when thats your argument because the "lore" allows it and you have nothing else to add except that then no thats not a good reason to make him female. Even with windwaker they made that choice for the world for a reason. It wasn't just a simple passing thought. Also you never answered my question.