Support NeoGAF

[rex]

The main character is Link. Why change it to be someone other than Link?

Links not a character though.

 

[zhorkat]

Because you're arguing that link is an avatar so why does link have to be the playable avatar in this case? Since you think its fine to overhaul a character to make people happy why not just shift the star of the story instead?

Is there a good reason to shift the star of the story instead? Since you think there shouldn't be change without a good reason, isn't it better to minimize the number of changes made?

 

[rex]

Small request. Can the girl link side tell us which link theyre talking about in each post? when you just say link i dont know which character, er avatar, er i mean archetype were talking about.

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

Listen the plot of Super is barely there, and motherhood, at least I think, could easily just be swapped with strong fatherhood, I don't see why a scene with no actual text and just a couple of sprites would be effect.

Even if the scene played out identically , you would have a different (even if only slightly) emotional response as the implied relationships hinge on gender dynamics, I'm sure you see your mother in a different light than your farther and have a different response (again if only slightly) to the idea of one of them being attacked.

There's a reason most revenge stories have a male protagonist and a female victim, there a reason a revenge story is usually different with a female protagonist (often the character is the victim)

Sure on a surface level the differences are completely superficial but gender differences alter how we view and responded to these characters and affects how strongly these characters can and can not , resonate with its Audience

 

[Mango The Magician]

Is there a good reason to shift the star of the story instead? Since you think there shouldn't be change without a good reason, isn't it better to minimize the number of changes made?

...then make them both playable, ala 3D World, everyone happy!...?

Even if the scene played out identically , you would have a different (even if only slightly) emotional response as the implied relationships hinge on gender dynamics, I'm sure you see your mother in a different light than your farther and have a different response (again if only slightly) to the idea of one of them being attacked.

There's a reason most revenge stories have a male protagonist and a female victim, there a reason a revenge story is usually different with a female protagonist (often the character is the victim)

Sure on a surface level the differences are completely superficial but gender differences alter how we view and responded to these characters and affects how strongly these characters can and can not , resonate with its Audience

So it just boils down to the outside world? Because that was my point in that the game in a vacuum wouldn't change. I mean sure the implication would change, but I don't think the scene would. As for how I view my parents, well I think they always sorta acted very similar, I think there's some deep rooted inherent differences in how I'd respond to one vs the other, but I'm not sure if the actual parenting would be that different, though I might just be forgetting the fine details as unfortunately my mother passed away a couple of years ago, so maybe there was actually more differences than I remember.

Now I wish we had more games that focused on parenthood through a male lead focus. In trying to think of some that would fit in regard to comparison with Super Metroid and the baby Metroid, all that came up in my mind was Enslaved, Walking Dead from Telltale, The Last of Us, and Bioshock. Yes I know, most people don't see Enslaved: Odyssey to the West as a story about a man coming to care for a young teenage girl and trying to comfort her as he would a daughter and her seeking a new father figure.

Anyroad. In regards to how Super Metroid presented it's story? No, male or female, the idea of both imprinting (baby metroid) and sacrifice of a child for it's parent can both be presented in the exact same way and come across the same way. Would work just as well no matter the gender of the bounty hunter in power armour.
Would it have been presented in the exact same way if the main character was a male from the start, just like would Aliens have been presented the same way had it been the soldier of fortune Dutch instead of Ripley? No, it's doubtful because that is not something we saw in gaming, from Japan, for action titles in that way then. Castlevania and other male lead stories never went that route despite having the opportunity to. It would not have been about motherhood or parenthood in the first place most likely and taken a different route to be sure. A pet perhaps, or an experiment by the Federation to use Metroids to fight as weapons or a civil war between different species of Metroids, something else.

Now a Zelda game centered around mother or father hood would be something I could get behind, be it Link saving his own parents, or Zelda and Link both being playable and saving their children.

 

[KenOD]

Now I wish we had more games that focused on parenthood through a male lead focus. In trying to think of some that would fit in regard to comparison with Super Metroid and the baby Metroid, all that came up in my mind was Enslaved, Walking Dead from Telltale, The Last of Us, and Bioshock. Yes I know, most people don't see Enslaved: Odyssey to the West as a story about a man coming to care for a young teenage girl and trying to comfort her as he would a daughter and her seeking a new father figure.

Anyroad. In regards to how Super Metroid presented it's story? No, male or female, the idea of both imprinting (baby metroid) and sacrifice of a child for it's parent can both be presented in the exact same way and come across the same way. Would work just as well no matter the gender of the bounty hunter in power armour.
Would it have been presented in the exact same way if the main character was a male from the start, just like would Aliens have been presented the same way had it been the soldier of fortune Dutch instead of Ripley? No, it's doubtful because that is not something we saw in gaming, from Japan, for action titles in that way then. Castlevania and other male lead stories never went that route despite having the opportunity to. It would not have been about motherhood or parenthood in the first place most likely and taken a different route to be sure. A pet perhaps, or an experiment by the Federation to use Metroids to fight as weapons or a civil war between different species of Metroids, something else.

 

[blankempathy]

Is there a good reason to shift the star of the story instead? Since you think there shouldn't be change without a good reason, isn't it better to minimize the number of changes made?

Is there a good reason to make link a girl outside of being more inclusive to females? Id say leaving Link alone and not forcing a gender change is a good reason to have another female protagonist. I mean hes an avatar right hes not integral to the story. Since apparently the hero of the spirit can be anyone is that restricted to people named link only? Is there a specific piece of info that says the hero of hyrule has to be named link?

 

[Freshmaker]

Jesus Christ, this thread is a goddamn headache to read. As much as you try not to make it sound like it, saying Link can't be a girl because you don't want Link to be a girl sounds like fucking misogyny. It's justified in the lore

It's not supported in the lore at all. That's the problem. I've offered a suggestion how to slot in in elegantly but nah, massage a knee.

Links not a character though.

Yes he is. Even if he's not directly speaking characters in the game respond as if he has said something and you can infer what he's talking about from there.

Not giving a charter explicit lines doesn't preclude them from having a personality or a character.

 

[akidnamededdy]

Jesus Christ, this thread is a goddamn headache to read. As much as you try not to make it sound like it, saying Link can't be a girl because you don't want Link to be a girl sounds like fucking misogyny. It's justified in the lore, if Nintendo wants to make a female Link, what's the problem?

And for the people saying "Why would they make a female Link?" maybe because people want to play as one! Not every game is for you, get some goddamn empathy and understand that other people have different tastes, shit.

Where is it justified in the lore that Link can be a female? If anything, the fact that every single Link since forever has been male would sort of hint at the opposite of this, wouldn't it. Every Zelda has to be female, it's not too far a stretch.

Who wants to play as a female Link? I know several women who love the series and have zero problem at all playing as Link as we know him.

At some point I feel like this has become people trying to make a problem where there isn't one.

I'll say what I've said before when this subject comes up--Link, in his many incarnations, is an established character, despite what some people may say. He's got an iconic appearance and demeanor. It's been 30 years. To do a simple gender swap would be kind of screwed up, and considering the wealth of interesting female characters that already exist in the series (seriously, take a look at the cast of Hyrule Warriors) who would thrive given a little more attention and a leading role, it would just seem like a half-assed attempt at female representation.

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

Is there a good reason to make link a girl outside of being more inclusive to females? Id say leaving Link alone and not forcing a gender change is a good reason to have another female protagonist. I mean hes an avatar right hes not integral to the story. Since apparently the hero of the spirit can be anyone is that restricted to people named link only? Is there a specific piece of info that says the hero of hyrule has to be named link?

Does there have to be a better reason that it could be new and interesting ?
They didn't have to make zelda 2 so different from the original
They didn't have to change the art style so frequently
They didn't have to to start giving each dungeon unique themes
They didn't have to remove epona and add sailing in WW
Skyward sword didn't need to be a prequel
OOT didn't need to be a prequel
Gannondorf didn't have to be gannon

 

[rex]

It's not supported in the lore at all. That's the problem. I've offered a suggestion how to slot in in elegantly but nah, massage a knee.


Yes he is. Even if he's not directly speaking characters in the game respond as if he has said something and you can infer what he's talking about from there.

Not giving a charter explicit lines doesn't preclude them from having a personality or a character.

Yea i knew that post was gonna bite me.

I actually agree with you 100%. zhorkat was arguing in favor of a change and said link was the main character. One of the main arguments on the pro change side is that link is not a character. I was just trying to sow dissension in the opposite camp.

 

[blankempathy]

Does there have to be a better reason that it could be new and interesting ?
They didn't have to make zelda 2 so different from the original
They didn't have to change the art style so frequently
They didn't have to to start giving each dungeon unique themes
They didn't have to remove epona and add sailing in WW
Skyward sword didn't need to be a prequel
OOT didn't need to be a prequel
Gannondorf didn't have to be gannon

Interesting how? When these games weak points are their stories how could it be interesting? OOT wasn't a prequel when it came out. Skyward sword wanted to tell the story of demise, They had to add sailing because it fell in line with hyrule being flooded. Epona is a way to not have to run everywhere in the bigger open worlds. I think dungeons have had their own themes for a while. They just became more specific as the games as the games progressed. They didn't have to change the artstyle but they did. As far as 2 is concerned they apparently just wanted to.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

When you and Discoid say that the need for diversity overrides the other factors i can respect your thought process.

Actually I don't agree with that, but I think it's important reason to include diversity where it's possible. For example, a lot of people on Gaf would like to see Idris Elba play James Bond, but I don't believe that that would suit the character or its history. The reason I'm advocating for more diverse options when it comes to Link is because of the nature of the series/character.

But when you say that link is not a character, and with such certitude, its astounding to me.

This is, my apologies but im going to use the word character, this is a character who most of us grew up with. Its a character that has such value to us he can appear in other games and those games become more appealing. The character has real meaning to a lot of us and to see him dismissed, and all of us essentially accused of being crazy ( or worse), is one of the stranger things ive encountered here.

From the dictionary: character, a person in a novel, play, or movie. Thats the only requirement. Im gonna take a chance and add videogames to the list.

I think you're misunderstanding here. Obviously videogame characters count as characters. The reason people are saying Link isn't a character is because there is a difference between the abstracted Link and the Links we see in the games (and other media). The Hero of Time is a character. The Hero of the Winds is a character. These are two separate characters who fulfil the Link archetype. This is a quality that many other series do not have: Samus, Master Chief etc... are always the same recurring character. Other series are fully rebooted when they want to change continuity.

When you tell me that in the name of diversity link has to change, well how does one argue against that? I dont want a different main character in this series. This series is link and ganon and zelda to me. Id be annoyed by the change. Thats a downside to me. If that makes me insensitive or blind to the bigger picture then Im not sure what to say. I never thought id have to essentially sacrifice a favorite character in order to advance a social goal. Im a little dumbfounded by the whole thing actually.

Having a single game where Link isn't a white male, or games where Link not being a white male is simply an option, isn't "losing" anything. Nothing is being sacrificed. It's just more representations of the same archetype. The Hero of Time would still exist. Link could still be a white male in Smash Bros (although what would be wrong with having options for the character in that game as well?)

You say that nintendo is about player projection even though they actually do very little in that area.

There's a difference between designing a character to project onto and something like a full fledged role-playing game. Nintendo have explicitly stated that numerous choices they make with Link are about not getting in the way of the player projecting themselves onto him and in many ways it's about what they don't do (voice acting, dialogue, strong characterisation). I've already posted this quote from Aonuma a few times in this thread:

“When a player is playing a Zelda game, my desire is for the player to truly become Link—that's why we named him Link, so the player is linked to the game and to the experience.”

The reason you want link to change is precisely because hes famous, and it would be big story if there was a female link. Your deep concern about this proves the point.

Absolutely not true and please refrain from making such assumptions. I believe the games would be better and would offer more to society if the protagonist could be more diverse.

I appreciate that Discoid cut thru the bs and explained succinctly why he wants this. Its a lot easier for me personally to evaluate his argument when i dont have to rebut amazing claims like link isnt a character. Saying that is not only untrue, but an unnecessary hurdle to any real understanding here.

On the contrary, referring back to my first point (James Bond etc...), I believe the archetypal nature of Link is key to the discussion about how and why the series can be more inclusive.

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

...then make them both playable, ala 3D World, everyone happy!...?

So it just boils down to the outside world, because that was my point in that the game in a vacuum wouldn't change. I mean sure the implication would change, but I don't think the scene would.

Sorry about your mother I didn't mean to bring up the past or anything.

We seem to have gotten a little side tracked but came back to the same original point
I was saying that Samus's gender would affect those games but it wouldn't have much effect on the "inside" of a zelda game. Which apparently we agree on.

But because of this I don't see the issue in changing links gender

 

[rex]

Is there a good reason to make link a girl outside of being more inclusive to females? Id say leaving Link alone and not forcing a gender change is a good reason to have another female protagonist. I mean hes an avatar right hes not integral to the story. Since apparently the hero of the spirit can be anyone is that restricted to people named link only? Is there a specific piece of info that says the hero of hyrule has to be named link?

I think you hit on their central contradiction.

On one hand, they say link is an avatar, hes an archetype. They go so far as to say hes not a character, which is an insane statement.

Yet, on the other hand, its vital that the main character still be link. They want the name, and presumably his iconic look.

Link is both nothing and everything to them at the same time.

Theyr whole argument presupposes links fame and fandom.

And thats why few will agree to any of the compromise solutions proposed. Theyr obsessed with a character who, in their eyes, doesnt even exist. Its surreal.

 

[FyreWulff]

I think most people that want to see a female Link want to see it as a gender choice at the start of the game, since Link is generic like your Skyrim, etc character.

You'd still have your male Link.

Ganon's entire backstory is being one of the single male Gerudo born every X number of years, so his gender is part of his story. Other Links are always referred to generically as Hero of ___ . You can even name Link with a female name or pronoun in his more andro appearances and technically play the game like Link is a transman or andro woman and it still makes sense.

Some people would just like that a game that asks you to name the hero after yourself, would be nice if you could actually play as your gender as well.

 

[akidnamededdy]

On the contrary, referring back to my first point (James Bond etc...), I believe the archetypal nature of Link is key to the discussion about how and why the series can be more inclusive.

Why does Link's race, sex, etc, have to change for the series to be inclusive? Are you suggesting that women, minorities, etc. are incapable of finding enjoyment in the game if they don't see an avatar of themselves on the screen?

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

Interesting how? When these games weak points are their stories how could it be interesting? OOT wasn't a prequel when it came out. Skyward sword wanted to tell the story of demise, They had to add sailing because it fell in line with hyrule being flooded. Epona is a way to not have to run everywhere in the bigger open worlds. I think dungeons have had their own themes for a while. They just became more specific as the games as the games progressed. They didn't have to change the artstyle but they did. As far as 2 is concerned they apparently just wanted to.

They HAD to add sailing because of the plot ? And that's fine even though women link for plot reasons isn't because "weak plots" ?

That's beside the point sailing was added because a developer thought it was new and exciting, the plot worked in afterwards, why is woman link should a big ask ?

 

[KenOD]

Is there a good reason to make link a girl outside of being more inclusive to females? Id say leaving Link alone and not forcing a gender change is a good reason to have another female protagonist. I mean hes an avatar right hes not integral to the story. Since apparently the hero of the spirit can be anyone is that restricted to people named link only? Is there a specific piece of info that says the hero of hyrule has to be named link?

Well many can argue with the name change entry, none of the heroes are actually Link. They are [enter your name choice here]. Likewise Ancient Stone Tablets introduced a Hero Of Light for the game franchise (not to the lore, that's different) that was either male or female, and with whatever name one wanted without being Link (or a hero in a green tunic).

Now I stand by the fact more inclusive to females is a incredibly great reason to add a female hero to a big, cannon, full fledge AAA Legend of Zelda title because it would help the industry and make my daughter extremely happy, be it a female Link or a new character.
I would also state that that a different perspective and widening of what can be allowed in Legend of Zelda could allow the developers more freedom overall when it comes to Legend of Zelda titles. Nintendo has often been criticised for being too similar in their games at points.
The side sales outside of a main game has potential as well. A female Link figure, poster, DLC for Hyrule Warriors and Mario Kart, or anything of the sort would merit as well to consider. Official female costumes for Halloween would be something as well, not just "Elf Warrior Female" costume knockoffs.
A Mulan style story could easily fit into Legend of Zelda and be quite enjoyable to experience and I'm sure plenty, male or female would enjoy to see that.
Zelda being the playable hero in the green tunic (since wearing a green tunic means you are a hero in every game) would be a good reason to allow a game even more focus on puzzles (spin-off most likely) because it's the Triforce of Wisdom that is the power inside the main character, and it would be interesting to see a ruler of state as the plot of the story moving things forward. Diplomacy through Courage, yes I could get behind that.
As mentioned above, a Link and Zelda as parents and their child is fighting, and she happens to be female would be reason enough to tell a good story (Link Jr. works for male or female in Hyrule... sure).
It could be a good reason to help set-up a feature Legend of Zelda vs Fire Emblem Awakening. Something something not Marth.
Lastly, a great reason to do a sequel to this. http://youtu.be/zv5OIvwqkvM

Why does Link's race, sex, etc, have to change for the series to be inclusive? Are you suggesting that women, minorities, etc. are incapable of finding enjoyment in the game if they don't see an avatar of themselves on the screen?

Are you suggestion that a female couldn't get a lot out of playing a game about a female hero destined to save the world? That she wouldn't be able to immerse herself even more in seeing another member of her gender be the great fighter who rescues others, figures out puzzles, and perhaps allows her to pretend even easier that it's her doing it? Of course you aren't, that would be silly. A female Link is simply the easiest and simplest change in some people's minds for this to occur for those that don't see Link as being "one specific male character only". A character option of male or female is simply the easiest way to provide both camps without taking away anything on the player's end.

 

[blankempathy]

I think you hit on their central contradiction.

On one hand, they say link is an avatar, hes an archetype. They go so far as to say hes not a character, which is an insane statement.

Yet, on the other hand, its vital that the main character still be link. They want the name, and presumably his iconic look.

Link is both nothing and everything to them at the same time.

Theyr whole argument presupposes links fame and fandom.

And thats why few will agree to any of the compromise solutions proposed. Theyr obsessed with a character who, in their eyes, doesnt even exist. Its surreal.

People want to have their cake and eat it too. Its ridiculous. When someone can't even knowledge link as a character why should their opinion be taken seriously. I'm not trying to defend playing a male lead role in the games I just don't think you should shoehorn a character to fit your personal preferences.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Sorry about your mother I didn't bring up past or anything.

We seem to have gotten a little side tracked but came back to the same original point
I was saying he Samus gender would affect those games but it wouldn't have much effect on the "inside" of a zelda game. Which apparently we agree on.

But because of this I don't see the issue in changing links gender

I didn't mean to imply that you brought up the past, so sorry lol, I was just explaining why I may or may not have forgotten some of the fine details of my own experience with motherhood from a receiving end. Sorry if I made that awkward... :/ thank you though.

What I meant was that the difference would be negligible and barely different, much like the intro of WW wouldn't really work if Link was changed.

I think most people that want to see a female Link want to see it as a gender choice at the start of the game, since Link is generic like your Skyrim, etc character.

You'd still have your male Link.

Ganon's entire backstory is being one of the single male Gerudo born every X number of years, so his gender is part of his story. Other Links are always referred to generically as Hero of ___ . You can even name Link with a female name or pronoun in his more andro appearances and technically play the game like Link is a transman or andro woman and it still makes sense.

Some people would just like that a game that asks you to name the hero after yourself, would be nice if you could actually play as your gender as well.

To be fair there are two Ganondorfs and they're both Gerudo and male, yet there's nothing in the actual lore that says he must be Gerudo or male, just like there's nothing that says Zelda must be Hylian or female. As for the option, while I don't like the idea, I'd be more willing to accept that than a change like the thread is proposing.

 

[rex]

Actually I don't agree with that, but I think it's important reason to include diversity where it's possible. For example, a lot of people on Gaf would like to see Idris Elba play James Bond, but I don't believe that that would suit the character or its history. The reason I'm advocating for more diverse options when it comes to Link is because of the nature of the series/character.


I think you're misunderstanding here. Obviously videogame characters count as characters. The reason people are saying Link isn't a character is because there is a difference between the abstracted Link and the Links we see in the games (and other media). The Hero of Time is a character. The Hero of the Winds is a character. These are two separate characters who fulfil the Link archetype. This is a quality that many other series do not have: Samus, Master Chief etc... are always the same recurring character. Other series are fully rebooted when they want to change continuity.

Having a single game where Link isn't a white male, or games where Link not being a white male is simply an option, isn't "losing" anything. Nothing is being sacrificed. It's just more representations of the same archetype. The Hero of Time would still exist. Link could still be a white male in Smash Bros (although what would be wrong with having options for the character in that game as well?)

There's a difference between designing a character to project onto and something like a full fledged role-playing game. Nintendo have explicitly stated that numerous choices they make with Link are about not getting in the way of the player projecting themselves onto him and in many ways it's about what they don't do (voice acting, dialogue, strong characterisation). I've already posted this quote from Aonuma a few times in this thread:


Absolutely not true and please refrain from making such assumptions. I believe the games would be better and would offer more to society if the protagonist could be more diverse.

On the contrary, referring back to my first point (James Bond etc...), I believe the archetypal nature of Link is key to the discussion about how and why the series can be more inclusive.

Theres a Miyamoto quote directly contradicting that one from Anouma...Id link to it (ha ha) but im on my phone. Which quote should we credit?

To your point about links lack of speech. Mario doesnt speak in paper mario either. And, we all know about the Other m disaster. Are you sure when nintendo appeals to you with high sounding ideals like becoming link its not just a con? So that they dont have to spend time taking the risky step of developing a full fledged and complex characterization that might just end up being hated anyway?

As for hero of winds being a character, suffice to say were not going to convince eachother on this point.

 

[blankempathy]

They HAD to add sailing because of the plot ? And that's fine even though women link for plot reasons isn't because "weak plots" ?

That's beside the point sailing was added because a developer thought it was new and exciting, the plot worked in afterwards, why is woman link should a big ask ?

So basically your ok with the plot being an after thought.

 

[FyreWulff]

There are two Ganondorfs and they're both Gerudo and male, yet there's nothing in the actual lore that says he must be Gerudo or male, just like there's nothing that says Zelda must be Hylian or female. As for the option, while I don't like the idea, I'd be more willing to accept that than a change like the thread is proposing.

It's explicitly stated in Ocarina of Time that only one male is born every 100 years to the Gerudo, and due to that, the male born is automatically made King, explaining why he has so much power. His maleness is central to his character. Heck, the Gerudo in the game are going against gender norms - usually stories like this will have the "Queen" and her "hive" of warriors, but Ocarina has the King and his warrior women. Ocarina's Hyrule just has warrior men.

Link's only requirement is a pure heart free of evil.

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

I didn't mean to imply that you brought up the past, so sorry lol, I was just explaining why I may or may not have forgotten some of the fine details of my own experience with motherhood from a receiving end. Sorry if I made that awkward... :/ thank you though.

What I meant was that the difference would be negligible and barely different, much like the intro of WW wouldn't really work if Link was changed.

.

I'll admit wind waker probably wouldn't work as well with a female link with strong emphasis on WW link being OOT link reborn unless they retconned OOT link female, but at the same time that's nothing that couldn't be written around that, the only issue is with the fact a good bulk of the narrative focus on "you are this guy...reborn....or something" built that could be easily altered to a "maybe your this guy...reborn...or something "

But a game built with a female Link in mind could taliour it's story to fit

 

[Shaanyboi]

So basically your ok with the plot being an after thought.

it's always been an afterthought

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

So basically your ok with the plot being an after thought.

... Welcome to game design?
I mean, I'm all for greater narrative focus in games (Majora's Mask being a big favourite)
But game narrative works better when it's done to contextual and impart meaning on the mechanics and mode of play, which would mean most particular plot points (ie WHY the world is flooded) are depending on how strict you wanna get with the definition, an after thought.

Going narrative first usually results in all sound and furry efforts al la dexus ex human revolution

 

[BGBW]

I honestly don't know if the arguments are for and against Link being a girl or being a gerudo girl, which is actually what the thread is about. One requires one change, the other requires multiple changes to the Link character which is why more would be resistant to it. Change it too much and people start to question whether it is even the same character any more.

 

[Karkador]

I think you hit on their central contradiction.

On one hand, they say link is an avatar, hes an archetype. They go so far as to say hes not a character, which is an insane statement.

Yet, on the other hand, its vital that the main character still be link. They want the name, and presumably his iconic look.

Link is both nothing and everything to them at the same time.

Theyr whole argument presupposes links fame and fandom.

And thats why few will agree to any of the compromise solutions proposed. Theyr obsessed with a character who, in their eyes, doesnt even exist. Its surreal.

You can have the name, the clothes, the role, but still be a different character ; a different person. This happens in comic books all the time. Lots of popular heroes have had different iterations with different personalities/characterizations in the costumes.

When people say "Link is not a character", they mean to say that Link doesn't have a 'personality' that carries over from game to game, or one that even participates much in the story of the games. There's nothing about the 'Link' role that depends on gender for it to work- it's an avatar that swings a sword and jumps and climbs things, and happens to hold the third triforce.

People who insist that Link has to be a blonde boy are holding onto the status quo, much like they did when WW debuted. If you like new things, then the idea of challenging what 'Link' is should be an exciting thought, not something to be alarmed by.

 

[Mango The Magician]

It's explicitly stated in Ocarina of Time that only one male is born every 100 years to the Gerudo, and due to that, the male born is automatically made King, explaining why he has so much power.

Link's only requirement is a pure heart free of evil.

OOT states that the king of Gerudo is born every 100 years as the only male, it never states that Ganondorf must be that Gerudo, or if Ganondorf even has to be Gerudo, it's simply just accepted. As for his power, well he gets it from the ToP, I mean what else would that be used for? Plus FSA never even states whether or not the Ganondorf that that game introduced was the King or not, we simply just assumed it was because of the lore in OOT, but hell maybe the tradition has changed by the time of FSA, who knows?

I'll admit wind waker probably wouldn't work as well with a female link with strong emphasis on WW link being OOT link reborn unless they retconned OOT link female, but at the same time that's nothing that couldn't be written around that, the only issue is with the fact a good bulk of the narrative focus on "you are this guy...reborn....or something" built that could be easily altered to a "maybe your this guy...reborn...or something "

But a game built with a female Link in mind could taliour it's story to fit

Sure a femLink could probably work by the lore as there's nothing in the lore that states he must be anything, just like Zelda or Ganon, in fact in general there's not a lot about Link in the Zelda lore period, he just sorta shows up, which reinforces my point that the whole lore was just an afterthought that they built around, I mean why else would they go out of their way to make a point about how all Princess are named Zelda after the events of AoLs backstory then turn around and make several prequels before any of the Zelda sleeping crap happened? I mean hell, it's suppose to be the reason why all Zeldas are named Zelda yet here we are with it sitting at the end of one of the forks of the timelines. And don't get me started on Ganon, you literally can't kill him or seal him, it's like he discovered Hyrules only infinite 1-up glitch.

 

[blankempathy]

... Welcome to game design?
I mean, I'm all for greater narrative focus in games (Majora's Mask being a big favourite)
But game narrative works better when it's done to contextual and impart meaning on the mechanics and mode of play, which would mean most particular plot points (ie WHY the world is flooded) are depending on how strict you wanna get with the definition, and after thought.

Going narrative first usually results in all sound and furry efforts al la dexus ex human revolution

Except making link female adds what to the gameplay?

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

Except making link female adds what to the gameplay?

Changing the art style adds what?
Making it prequel adds what?
Making the hint system an npc adds what?

Adding a female link doesn't need to add anything to the gameplay, it could simply be a nice change of perspective

 

[Mango The Magician]

Changing the art style adds what?
Making it prequel adds what?
Making the hint system an npc adds what?

Adding a female link doesn't need to add anything to the gameplay, it could simply be a nice change of perspective

Don't mean to pick on ya Dodgy, but how exactly would it change the perspective? I may or may not be misunderstanding what you mean by 'perspective' so, if I am feel free to correct me.

 

[Nickle]

These are a collection of reasons for why some people want to change Link (correct me if I am wrong or an missing something):
-to play a Zelda game as a woman
-to play a Zelda game as a different race
-to shake up the series
-to tell a story from a different perspective
-for a woman to finally be the hero
-to better connect with the protagonist
-to see the meltdowns

Spoiler

this isn't a real reason

On the other hand, other people have only one desire: don't change Link (ie. keep him as a young blond male Hylian who wears green).


If the new protagonist were to be a new or preexisting female character, then everybody would be happy. It's a perfect compromise that gives both sides exactly what they want.

 

[Eidan]

You can have the name, the clothes, the role, but still be a different character ; a different person. This happens in comic books all the time. Lots of popular heroes have had different iterations with different personalities/characterizations in the costumes.

When people say "Link is not a character", they mean to say that Link doesn't have a 'personality' that carries over from game to game, or one that even participates much in the story of the games. There's nothing about the 'Link' role that depends on gender for it to work- it's an avatar that swings a sword and jumps and climbs things, and happens to hold the third triforce.

People who insist that Link has to be a blonde boy are holding onto the status quo, much like they did when WW debuted. If you like new things, then the idea of challenging what 'Link' is should be an exciting thought, not something to be alarmed by.

Ring a ding ding.

It really is baffling to me that anyone can be so opposed to the idea of Link being a woman. It's a character who encompasses many characters. Is the idea of ONE of those characters being a woman so off-putting?

 

[Mango The Magician]

Ring a ding ding.

It really is baffling to me that anyone can be so opposed to the idea of Link being a woman. It's a character who encompasses many characters. Is the idea of ONE of those characters being a woman so off-putting?

We don't want to see 30 years of design changed, regardless of how many of them there are in the lore.

 

[Karkador]

We don't want to see 30 years of design changed, regardless of how many of them there are in the lore.

You can just play Legend of Zelda on NES for the rest of your life.

 

[Freshmaker]

Changing the art style adds what?
Making it prequel adds what?
Making the hint system an npc adds what?

Adding a female link doesn't need to add anything to the gameplay, it could simply be a nice change of perspective

How does it change perspective if it doesn't change anything?

 

[Mango The Magician]

You can just play Legend of Zelda on NES for the rest of your life.

Or, we can make another character who isn't Link playable, then everyone is happy.

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

Don't mean to pick on ya Dodgy, but how exactly would it change the perspective?

Run Around and explore hyrule as female character, maybe some people treat you differently , maybe they don't , maybe some people take issue with the hero of legend being a dude, and you aren't, maybe they don't care eighteen way

Maybe instead of being a babe magnet, your a dude magnet
Maybe the close friend that gets kidnapped at the beginning is a dude , maybe he isn't

Maybe another character thinks that he's the hero of legend because he is a dude.

I'm sure there's plenty of fun ways to take it that change things up without removing the core zelda experience

How does it change perspective if it doesn't change anything?

I poorly worded that, what I mean is it Can , but it doesn't have to. depends on what they do with it , links awakening doesn't really change if link was a woman , OOT might

 

[Eidan]

We don't want to see 30 years of design changed, regardless of how many of them there are in the lore.

Is that really it? You don't want change? Such a dull argument. I think you and I are just wired differently.

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

Or, we can make another character who isn't Link playable, then everyone is happy.

No, then you're happy. If it made everyone happy, then this thread wouldn't still be going.

 

[Karkador]

Or, we can make another character who isn't Link playable, then everyone is happy.

But Link has always been the main character, why trample on 30 years of tradition?

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

But Link has always been the main character, why trample on 30 years of tradition?

Because they don't want to trample on 30 years of tradition to not trample on 30 years of tradition.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Run Around and explore hyrule as female character, maybe some people treat you differently , maybe they don't , maybe some people take issue with the hero of legend being a dude, and you aren't, maybe they don't care eighteen way

There are no differences in how the genders are viewed in Zelda meaning a plot revolving around how people view her differently wouldn't happen.

Maybe instead of being a babe magnet, your a dude magnet

This wouldn't even require that you change him, but it's negligible since he's not really a anything magnet.

Maybe the close friend that gets kidnapped at the beginning is a dude , maybe he isn't

Again, this doesn't require the change.

Maybe another character thinks that he's the hero of legend because he is a dude.

If there's nothing in the lore that says the hero must be a dude why would this happen?

I'm sure there's plenty of fun ways to take it that change things up without removing the core zelda experience

And there's a billion and one ways to introduce a new story without changing Link.

No, then you're happy. If it made everyone happy, then this thread wouldn't still be going.

Actually if I had it my way, you wouldn't even be able to rename Link, I'm simply offering a compromise, you could reach across the aisle, you know?

But Link has always been the main character, why trample on 30 years of tradition?

Who says Link can't also be playable?

 

[KenOD]

Maybe another character thinks that he's the hero of legend because he is a dude.

Tingle.

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

Maybe another character thinks that he's the hero of legend because he is a dude.

That actually sounds pretty cool, bring back Groose for that shit and you got GOTY.

 

[DodgyTaZombie]

There are no differences in how the genders are viewed in Zelda meaning a plot revolving around how people view her differently wouldn't happen.

This wouldn't even require that you change them, but it's negligible since he's not really a anything magnet.

Again, this doesn't require the change.

If there's nothing in the lore that says the hero must be a dude why would this happen?

And there's a billion and one ways to introduce a new story without changing Link.

Im pretty sure in every console zelda since OOT apart from maybe WW at least one woman has Flirted with link in each game.

All the previous heroes where male, maybe someone thinks there's a reason for it.

How do we know hyrule doesn't view women different ? In minish cap zelda is critized for picking the shield instead of the heart or rupee because it's less traditionally femme, in WW only the boys dress up as the hero at a certain age

I don't recall any female guards


.... All of which is beside the point , it doesn't have to change ANYTHING, doesn't make it a valid reason no to do it though

 

[blankempathy]

Changing the art style adds what?
Making it prequel adds what?
Making the hint system an npc adds what?

Adding a female link doesn't need to add anything to the gameplay, it could simply be a nice change of perspective

So change just because. No real reason except because you want to play as a girl. No ones brought a valid reason to change link except to be more inclusive of females. I say make a new character or playable zelda. You guys say no because you want to be link and a girl. Not even an attempt to meet at the middle. As far as not doing it go people have said that Link isn't just some random person in the timeline of LoZ but a character who's more then just the games hes in. Thats apparently not good enough.

 

[SpaceCadetKeon]

I'm pulling for a female Link in Zelda U, so sure I would. And speaking of Gerudos, I think it'd be neat if the Gerudo mask from OoT returned in Majora's Mask 3D. I thought it was weird that it, and the skull and spooky masks for that matter, were absent in the original. I imagine it could be a new transformation mask that changes Link into a Gerudo pirate.