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If you wouldn't date transgender people, where do you begin to regard their gender?

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Mumei

Member
You're calling almost everyone a bigot, then. Attempting to shame people into being willing to have sex with someone who's trans is ridiculous and idiotic. You have no business telling other people who they should be sleeping with, and it's not a given to say that "the enlightened position -- which I've now reached -- is to have my mind and body react identically to trans people and cis people," as trans people and cis people are flat-out not identical. Acknowledging that is okay, and has nothing to do with wanting the trans community to have equal rights under the law and respect in personal interactions, or considering the transgender state to be a legitimate human condition. Forcing yourself to be attracted identically when you otherwise wouldn't is not respect.

Well, I suppose so? I mean, I think that being prejudiced against / cissexist towards / bigoted against - and I use these interchangeably - transgender people is the norm in modern American society. To me, saying "almost all cisgender people have cissexist attitudes towards transgender people in 2015 in America" is like saying, "almost every white person had racist attitudes against black people in the U.S. in 1960, and a large plurality (or majority if you go by some surveys) still do." If someone is racist, it doesn't mean that they are A Super Bad Person Now And Forever With No Redeeming Values, after all. They probably have lots of redeeming values, and pet dogs and save stray cats and let their neighbors borrow butter and whatever else you might use to define someone having basic decency. But they're still racist, and (at least my by lights), I think someone who is cissexist is still so.

I also don't think that trans people and cis people are identical. I haven't been making that argument; there are obviously differences. People have talked about some of those differences that would be perfectly good reasons for not being interested in a relationship with a trans person - like wanting to have biological children, for instance. And while I do think that it is reflective of learned cissexist, if you don't actually feel attracted to someone I'm not saying you should force yourself to. I'm saying that if there were someone you were attracted to and knowing that they were transgender made all the difference for you (and not something else), you should examine why that is. I might be giving the wrong impression but this isn't something that happened overnight for me. I spent a lot of these topics, for years, feeling sort of sympathetic to comments like the ones you were quoted as making, at least on some level. And it was that idea that transgender people's genders are somehow, in some way, less authentic. As for me: It's a recent thing for me. It's taken me years to slowly change my attitudes from the bare minimum of progressiveness to being more truly supportive. If someone does change their attitudes, it's not going to come because I've exhorted them to be attracted to someone they aren't, but because of a change in their perceptions vis-a-vis cisgender people and transgender people.

Perhaps the word "bigot" is too inflammatory for your tastes, but I don't want the people I'm disagreeing with to feel ashamed, but to think. My hope is that, whether someone agrees or disagrees with particular claims I've made, that they at least think about their thinking, that they consider what their fundamental, unspoken assumptions are. If being challenged on that makes someone feel as though they've been attacked, as milquetoast as I've been, I think it says more about the general tendency towards defensiveness than my being particularly intemperate.

I should also say that I think that this discussion for most cis people is going to remain in the realm of the abstract. What care I if you never feel attracted to The Hypothetical Trans Woman? Honestly, not much. And I don't expect you to find yourself in a position where you'd have to "force yourself" to be attracted, nor is that what I've been suggesting.
 

stufte

Member
No they're wrong and so are you for designating someones sexuality as 'wrong' if they're with a transgender person.

Where did he say that being with a transgender person is wrong? All he was saying is that everyone that has a differing opinion about sexual relations with a transgender person aren't inherently wrong because they don't have the same view on it as you.
 
Regarding the alleged hypocrisy of celebrating the arrival of a late period, while claiming to want children:

I am not hungry now.

I might want to eat later.

No hypocrisy.
 

Sai-kun

Banned
When you call someone a bigot or prejudiced for holding certain opinion or committing certain acts you are trying to shame them into changing their opinions or actions, that is the point of those extremely negative words. If his point was merely to get people to reflect on their opinions his would not have used such language.

when i call someone a bigot, that's it. i can use other words to shame them and make them change their opinion. (and believe me, i know how to do that)

bigot is just a starting point, to make them aware of the view they hold and that perhaps they need to think about their view a little deeper and more critically.

Where did he say that being with a transgender person is wrong? All he was saying is that everyone that has a differing opinion about sexual relations with a transgender person aren't inherently wrong because they don't have the same view on it as you.


the bolded is such bullshit. don't give me that. not all opinions are created equal.
 
when i call someone a bigot, that's it. i can use other words to shame them and make them change their opinion. (and believe me, i know how to do that)

bigot is just a starting point, to make them aware of the view they hold and that perhaps they need to think about their view a little deeper and more critically.

But using such a charged term as that is going to accomplish nothing in the long run. It's insulting, especially when you base it off of a single forum post. Calling someone a bigot is only going to entrench said person in their original position.
 

Dany

Banned
Where did he say that being with a transgender person is wrong? All he was saying is that everyone that has a differing opinion about sexual relations with a transgender person aren't inherently wrong because they don't have the same view on it as you.

No. I agree with sai. An opinion of lessoning an individual's sexuality is bullshit and wrong.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
This sort of discussion will never go anywhere positive. Honest positions on who you're willing to date/sleep with/marry/whatever will inevitably be hurtful to others and marginalize them and should probably be kept to yourself whenever possible. And on the other end, lashing out at people for holding those positions isn't benefiting anyone or changing anyone's mind or realistic at all, either. Subsequent threads along these lines will be locked on sight.
 
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