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Which Metal Gear plot point/twist is the most ludicrous?

Dremark

Banned
He's not that eccentric. Except for the Bond conversation, he's played pretty seriously. He's a straight down the line, no nonsense British officer. Zero also seems genuinely hurt by The Boss "double-crossing [them] like that", he practically spits that line. We also know he has history with The Boss from the time they both served in the SAS, which I hope is elaborated on in TPP tapes. He talks about with reverence, just as everyone else does.

While I think there is definitely a disparity between MGS3:Zero and what little we've heard about (and from) TPP:Zero, I certainly don't think it's narratively insurmountable by any stretch. I expect some of the TPP tapes to cover the transition.


I don't have as much of an issue with him going from being Agent Zero to the head of the Patriots as much as I do with him doing so with pretty much no real explanation for him doing so. It's not that they couldn't make it work, it's just at the current point they basically gave an explanation that didn't really gel well with anything we had known and left it at that.

Signit they actually had the forethought to establish him as being Donald Anderson of DARPA and didn't really do anything in particular to make him into a monster like they did with Clark in particular.

Paramedic to Clark is beyond my comprehension and on top of that they put zero effort into developing her that way.
 

Cathcart

Member
I think MGS3 tried to deliberately avoided it in favor of avoiding anachronism but obviously couldn't go all the way. Thats why they have static pictures in Codec instead of animated ones, and why Snake has a physical radio rather than nanomachines. I suppose it's....plausible that the crew can somehow see Snake's vital signs and inventory without being aware of the greater scenario, but it's definitely not the same case as the Solid Snake games.

That's my point, though. Even in the 60s when you can see Snake's radio on him the crew makes many (like seriously many) references to things they'd only know if they had a camera looking at his surroundings. It's clearly a shortcut so they don't have to include a bunch of conversations where Snake explains to them what the player can already see.

tldr Trying to come up with lore explaining codec technology is pretty silly.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
That's my point, though. Even in the 60s when you can see Snake's radio on him the crew makes many (like seriously many) references to things they'd only know if they had a camera looking at his surroundings. It's clearly a shortcut so they don't have to include a bunch of conversations where Snake explains to them what the player can already see.

tldr Trying to come up with lore explaining codec technology is pretty silly.

It is a contrivance to enable your cohorts to contribute more, I have no problem with it. It doesn't negatively affect the experience at all.

Now the fucking Frank Jaeger explanation! That is some bullshit.

So is almost all of MGS4.

2 is great because it all fits. It is all about the metanarrative. Individual details are irrelevant. It probably definitely was a simulation.
 

Alienous

Member
He's not that eccentric. Except for the Bond conversation, he's played pretty seriously. He's a straight down the line, no nonsense British officer. Zero also seems genuinely hurt by The Boss "double-crossing [them] like that", he practically spits that line. We also know he has history with The Boss from the time they both served in the SAS, which I hope is elaborated on in TPP tapes. He talks about with reverence, just as everyone else does.

While I think there is definitely a disparity between MGS3:Zero and what little we've heard about (and from) TPP:Zero, I certainly don't think it's narratively insurmountable by any stretch. I expect some of the TPP tapes to cover the transition.

The whole thing with Zero is that we are missing a massive scene regarding his character development, which would be his finding out about what the US Goverment did to The Boss.

We see Big Boss' reaction in his coldness towards the President and his crying at the tombstone. As far as Major Zero is concerned he is convinced that The Boss is a traitor all throughout MGS3. Seeing how he learns about what happened to The Boss is something I hope they explore in The Phantom Pain, even if in a tape, and could explain a lot of his motivation in setting up the Patriots.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
I don't have as much of an issue with him going from being Agent Zero to the head of the Patriots as much as I do with him doing so with pretty much no real explanation for him doing so. It's not that they couldn't make it work, it's just at the current point they basically gave an explanation that didn't really gel well with anything we had known and left it at that.

Which one? They either gave an explanation as to how he changed or they didn't. Personally, I think the latter. We were given broad strokes at best. It's a bit of a mystery and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Maybe we'll get some concrete answers in TPP.

Paramedic to Clark is beyond my comprehension and on top of that they put zero effort into developing her that way.

I dunno, there are quite a few hints in her Sci-Fi rantings (zombies, cloning etc.). That sort of thing clearly excited her, I can personally see her get carried away with the science of it all.

The whole thing with Zero is that we are missing a massive scene regarding his character development, which would be his finding out about what the US Goverment did to The Boss.

We see Big Boss' reaction in his coldness towards the President and his crying at the tombstone. As far as Major Zero is concerned he is convinced that The Boss is a traitor all throughout MGS3. Seeing how he learns about what happened to The Boss is something I hope they explore in The Phantom Pain, even if in a tape, and could explain a lot of his motivation in setting up the Patriots.

Definitely interested to see how they play it.
 
Being told that you're entire support team in MGS3 were actual villians all along
. Minor support characters in the past somehow end up being the catalyst for all future problems? Talk about the most convenient and crazy twist ever.
 

Alienous

Member
I don't have as much of an issue with him going from being Agent Zero to the head of the Patriots as much as I do with him doing so with pretty much no real explanation for him doing so. It's not that they couldn't make it work, it's just at the current point they basically gave an explanation that didn't really gel well with anything we had known and left it at that.

Signit they actually had the forethought to establish him as being Donald Anderson of DARPA and didn't really do anything in particular to make him into a monster like they did with Clark in particular.

Paramedic to Clark is beyond my comprehension and on top of that they put zero effort into developing her that way.

I agree with this partially. MGS3 provides the kind of person who might come up with the idea of creating a Cyborg Ninja, Paramedic being a huge cinephile. It also mentions cloning, but Paramedic seemed to be morally opposed to it then, so it remains to be explained why that changes. I could see her being shifted on cloning, and perhaps forced to undertake the experiments with Gray Fox, without compromising her character.

The Patriots were run by AI from the year 2000 onwards (Zero was too old then to run the organization himself), and Dr. Clark's experiments took place after then, so you could explain that the AI manipulated her (perhaps with threats) to get her to undertake the experiments.
 

Bronetta

Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
Being told that you're entire support team in MGS3 were actual villians all along
. Minor support characters in the past somehow end up being the catalyst for all future problems? Talk about the most convenient and crazy twist ever.

Yeah and the character you play as in MGS3 is a major villain in the other games. They were villains all along just like Naked Snake was the villain all along.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Being told that you're entire support team in MGS3 were actual villians all along
. Minor support characters in the past somehow end up being the catalyst for all future problems? Talk about the most convenient and crazy twist ever.

The whole game was about how allies and enemies are not absolute. Kinda makes perfect sense in that context.
 

Dremark

Banned
Which one? They either gave an explanation as to how he changed or they didn't. Personally, I think the latter. We were given broad strokes at best. It's a bit of a mystery and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Maybe we'll get some concrete answers in TPP.

I dunno, there are quite a few hints in her Sci-Fi rantings (zombies, cloning etc.). That sort of thing clearly excited her, I can personally see her get carried away with the science of it all.

I didn't explain that clearly. They did not develop his character in anyway to show how he became Zero, they merely stated that the team had a great deal of respect for the Boss and formed the Patriots in order to continue her will.

As far as Clark goes I guess that's something connecting the two. Really this stuff would have worked a lot better if they had used Portable Ops to develop the characters further if this was the direction they were going to go. Anyway would be nice if they did get into it during the TTP, I don't see it going that direction but after MGS4 this is really the only thing I'd really like to see an answer to as just about everything else was resolved in MGS4 or prior to it.

Also just as an aside and so I'm not just continuing to be negative here the way they tied them being Patriots into the story for MGS1 was actually rather brilliant in my opinion.
 
Paramedic would've been a lot easier to swallow if wasn't for the stuff with Dr.Clark torturing the shit out of Gray Fox. You can see the hints that she could be down for something like Les Enfants Terribles(even though the game played it out like an inside meta joke) but beyond that? It just feels like we're missing some key stuff.

Sure they could explain it all now but it really should've happened before MGS4.(not revealing they were the Patriots but providing more context for their eventual change)
 
I don't understand why people are making a fuss over the hand thing but perfectly accept The Sorrow. It seems to me that given the fact that the Patriots are AI they wouldn't expect Ocelot to be playing doing something so nuts. Also given the fact that Liquid tends to me uncontrollable it only makes sense for Ocelot to remove all his influence, given how complicated his plan is. Also i a world with nanomachine vampires what makes ocelot's action less plausible?
Being told that you're entire support team in MGS3 were actual villians all along
. Minor support characters in the past somehow end up being the catalyst for all future problems? Talk about the most convenient and crazy twist ever.

Allies and enemies are all relative to a specific situation. Look at Saddam and U.S, USSR and the allies, U.S and Al Qaeda. U.S and half the world.

Its all relative.
 
The whole game was about how allies and enemies are not absolute. Kinda makes perfect sense in that context.

It's all convenience, it has no set up whatsoever. Considering that Dr. Clark in MGS1 was actually a male, this is a hard retcon.

It's Kojima's uncontrollable desire to make everyone and everything in this series somehow related to one another.
 

Dremark

Banned
I don't understand why people are making a fuss over the hand thing but perfectly accept The Sorrow.

They had previously established characters with supernatural powers earlier in the series. plus supernatural stuff is a little bit easier to swallow than something so contrived.

Paz: a Tale of Two Bombs.

And the fact that this may get retconned in TPP?

It will get retconned
into 3 bombs.

It's all convenience, it has no set up whatsoever. Considering that Dr. Clark in MGS1 was actually a male, this is a hard retcon.

It's Kojima's uncontrollable desire to make everyone and everything in this series somehow related to one another.

I *THINK* the Dr. Clark being male thing was a localization issue.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
It's all convenience, it has no set up whatsoever. Considering that Dr. Clark in MGS1 was actually a male, this is a hard retcon.

The main character and his allies all end up as the series villains. The game bashes you over the head with the idea that allies and enemies are not absolute and will change depending on the times. Each of the characters make snarky meta-jokes that relate to their later roles. Not sure that really counts as "no set up whatsoever". But hey, maybe I'm reading too much into it.

To be clear, no one is suggesting that he had this idea any earlier than MGS3 or even 4. Also, retcons are not inherently bad.
 
I *THINK* the Dr. Clark being male thing was a localization issue.
Correct. As far as I know, Dr. Clarke was never given any sort of gender identification in Japan.

In fact. it was the novelisation of MGS that first presented her as a woman and that it was Para-medic.
 

HolyDiver199

Neo Member
Why in mgs1 does liquid say do you like my glasses brother during codec call when codecs are vibration only communication ... So the boxes are only for show ...le shock
 
The player was playing the villain, or at least an unknowing puppet of the villains all along.

Liquid tried to battle the patriots. Solidus as well. And Ocelot too.
Infact, even with Naked Snake in Snake Eater the player was left in the shadows and was completely oblivious to what his true role in a greater scheme was.

Kojima's Solid series is the perfect antithesis to the common "You're the hero" clichee of the gaming industry.
 

Fury451

Banned
Being told that you're entire support team in MGS3 were actual villians all along
. Minor support characters in the past somehow end up being the catalyst for all future problems? Talk about the most convenient and crazy twist ever.

Yeah, as has been mentioned just a few posts above, it was done without really giving a whole lot of sound reasoning either.

Still....Liquid Ocelot and the whole arm/possession/not possessed/who knows/it was Nanomachines, son stuff with that character was way worse in terms of nonsensical. It's close though.
 
It's supposed to be the same one, but he's been retconned pretty heavily. It's to the point where they changed his name and racial background.

They never go into detail about his racial background in MGS1, but at least in MG2 he was Japanese-American.

c1fTVIy.png


From the original manual:

http://gtinter.msxnet.org/Setting.htm

McDonnel Miller

Hired by Campbell as survival consultant for FOXHOUND

Born in the United States 60 years after his grandparents immigrated there, he has served as a survival master in SAS (Special Air Skytroopers of Britain), The Green Beret Squad, US Marine boot camp, and most recently FOXHOUND. He is also volunteers as a coach in MERC SCHOOL (Mercenary School) twice a year. When he served as a drill sergeant in the FOX HOUND, he was referred to as a 'Hell Master' and draftees called him "Master Miller" with respect. He divorced his first wife (Nadine), and is currently residing in Los Angelos with his daughter (Catherine).

Miller is full of ideas and is quite knowledgeable in the area of science.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
I didn't explain that clearly. They did not develop his character in anyway to show how he became Zero, they merely stated that the team had a great deal of respect for the Boss and formed the Patriots in order to continue her will.

It's all convenience, it has no set up whatsoever. Considering that Dr. Clark in MGS1 was actually a male, this is a hard retcon.

Bit late, but I'm playing through MGS3 now in preparation for TPP and a few CODEC conversations popped up that shine a bit of light here:

Snake: Tell me something, Sigint...

Sigint: What's that?

Snake: What does 'Sigint' mean, anyway?

Sigint: It's short for 'Signal Intelligence.'

Snake: Signal Intelligence?

Sigint: The part of intelligence that deals with electronic information. Things like intercepting and analyzing electronic communications, determining enemy force strength and positioning from radar emissions and radio chatter - you get the idea. Codebreaking is considered part of SIGINT as well. 40 years from now, we'll be in the age of electronic warfare. It won't be long before information replaces firepower as the most valuable commodity on the battlefield.

Snake: So you're saying they won't need guys like me anymore?

Sigint: Sorry to break it to you, but that's not gonna happen. No matter how advanced our technology gets, there's still no substitute for human beings.

Snake: ...

Sigint: Anyway, the major is a man of foresight. He knew the electronic age was coming, and so he called out to me.

Snake: And you responded.

Sigint: Well, I didn't have anyplace else to do.

Snake: You couldn't find a job?

Sigint: Nope. None of the places where they do this kind of high-tech research would even let me in the door.

Snake: Why not? I know you've got social problems, but...

Sigint: Come again?

Snake: Nothing. I mean, someone with your talent ought to be able to...

Sigint: Yeah, well, maybe it had something to do with the fact that I'm black.

Snake: ...

Sigint: The major, though, he doesn't care about what color you are. I've never met anyone like him before. He's...different, you know?

Snake: Oh, yeah, I know.

Sigint: I don't think racism's going to go away even in the 21st century. But I want to work with computers and use them to bring people closer together. In the digital world, it doesn't matter whether you're black or white, American or Russian, or whatever. Everybody's going to be the same. That's what I think.

From the TPP trailer:

Zero: This world will become one; I have found the way. Race, tribal affiliations, national borders... Even our faces will be irrelevant. The world that The Boss envisioned will finally become a reality and it will make mankind whole again.

Zero's feelings on The Boss in MGS3:

Major Zero: The loss of The Boss has been a painful one indeed.

[...]

Major Zero: Me? I still can't believe it. As a comrade, I would have placed my trust in her before my own family. But now that I think about it, The Boss always seemed to have an aura of mystery about her. I never would have expected it to manifest in this way, though.

Tellingly, Zero's secret CODEC picture is one of him and The Boss. There's quite a few connections between them and a lot of his language about her shows his reverence.

There's more hints about Zero and Co
and how their MGS3 characterisations lead into The Patriots style of thinking
peppered throughout the game. Contrary to what I said before, I'm inclined to believe it was Kojima's plan to do that from the start of MGS3, especially because of the game's overriding theme.
 
Maybe it's just me, but I never really felt the idea that
upon finding out the circumstances of Boss's sacrifice, Zero & the support crew decides to take it upon themselves to say "fuck it", and become an organisation bent on realising the noble dreams of The Boss at all cost
all that strange.

Throughout MGS3, and PW, a consistent thing about The Boss has been her charisma, her world view and how she, as a person, has a huge influence on the people that she's touched. In many ways, I don't see Strangelove
and how she reacted to Boss's death (creating an A.I. of Boss)
as being any different from Big Boss
and the rest of the Patriots.
All of them reacted
to the Boss's death in significant ways.

Another consistent thing, is also how Zero
The Patriot is an enigmatic figure, of which he's constantly spoken of, referred to in 3rd-person, but we never really get to see how he actually feels and thinks about the things that he's done in the name of creating the unified world. The characters who know him demonise him, the things that he do are clearly willfully evil (for a presumed greater good), but we never actually hear him directly on a lot of the stuff that he's done.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Another consistent thing, is also how Zero
The Patriot is an enigmatic figure, of which he's constantly spoken of, referred to in 3rd-person, but we never really get to see how he actually feels and thinks about the things that he's done in the name of creating the unified world. The characters who know him demonise him, the things that he do are clearly willfully evil (for a presumed greater good), but we never actually hear him directly on a lot of the stuff that he's done.

Another interesting CODEC that relates to that (I've been playing a lot of MGS3 recently). Major Zero on being called Zero:

Major Zero: In another sense though, it signifies a ghost - one whose true identity must remain a mystery.
 

Dremark

Banned
Bit late, but I'm playing through MGS3 now in preparation for TPP and a few CODEC conversations popped up that shine a bit of light here:

[...]

Tellingly, Zero's secret CODEC picture is one of him and The Boss. There's quite a few connections between them and a lot of his language about her shows his reverence.

There's more hints about Zero and Co
and how their MGS3 characterisations lead into The Patriots style of thinking
peppered throughout the game. Contrary to what I said before, I'm inclined to believe it was Kojima's plan to do that from the start of MGS3, especially because of the game's overriding theme.

Sigit was revealed to be Donald Anderson at the end of MGS3 and went on to work for DARPA in innovating DARPANET. Pretty much everything makes sense for him and while Donald Anderson (To the best of my knowledge) wasn't linked directly to the patriots until MGS4, it's not really much of a stretch.

Zero never really seemed all that close with the Boss to me, I remember that specific line and I took it more to be that because she's a comrade he trusted her so much, but looking at the line again years later perhaps it just passed me by. Perhaps it was because we see the game through Big Boss' eyes and he's so much closer with The Boss maybe it didn't seem like he was that close to me because of the context. I guess this and him being revealed as the person pulling the strings in PO (A game which people insist is irrelevant and/or non-canon) it's a decent enough build up. Ultimately the main thing that made it not make sense to me I'll discuss below.

Paramedic to Clark still makes no sense to me. I am pretty sure Dr. Clark wasn't connected to Les Enfants Terribles until MGS4 so maybe she was planned as the person behind it and later Kojima decided to make them the same character. I realize people change, but going from her character in MGS3 to basically torturing Grey Fox in MGS is just a really big jump and there's really nothing given to us as reasons for her to develop that way.

Maybe it's just me, but I never really felt the idea that
upon finding out the circumstances of Boss's sacrifice, Zero & the support crew decides to take it upon themselves to say "fuck it", and become an organisation bent on realising the noble dreams of The Boss at all cost
all that strange.

The reason why it never really made sense to me is that there seems to be a massive disconnect between the ideals of The Boss and the agenda of the Patriots.

The basic idea for MG3 seemed to be to take a young and idealistic Big Boss and show how what he went through sent him down the path to starting Outer Heaven. If you're following where I am going with this you may be thinking you might be asking yourself "How does Outer Heaven reflect her beliefs?". The answer to this is ultimately that it doesn't, but it seems like a plausible misinterpretation and we're basically given Boss' logic on it. The Boss was the ultimate loyal soldier who shamed herself and died as a monster for her country. Outer Heaven was a nation of soldiers run in their interests so they wouldn't suffer the same sort of fate she did. Shaky logic, I'll admit but there's a logical connection there.

The Patriots are an organization that use fear, control and basically terrorism to keep themselves in power. You could argue that the principals of the organization changed over time, and that would be a valid point, however I never saw any sort of an explanation for how what they did connected to the Boss' ideals, situation or perceived ideals by the time the credits for MGS4 rolled.

And yes I do realize they did work to connect this up in Peacewalker and from what you guys have demonstrated it looks like they may take this further in TPP (Which would be great and I hope they do).
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Paramedic to Clark still makes no sense to me. I am pretty sure Dr. Clark wasn't connected to Les Enfants Terribles until MGS4 so maybe she was planned as the person behind it and later Kojima decided to make them the same character. I realize people change, but going from her character in MGS3 to basically torturing Grey Fox in MGS is just a really big jump and there's really nothing given to us as reasons for her to develop that way.

There are loads of hints about Paramedic. She has an obsession with science and science-fiction, a big deal os made out of her not telling Snake her name (Dr Clark), there are a couple of CODECs at the beginning of this video that offer some foreshadowing... (I think she mentions something in there about technology changing the way people think with specific reference to morals and ethics...)

...and then there's this:

Paramedic: Snake, did I ever tell you the reason I got into science in the first place?

Snake: No, I don't think you've mentioned it before.

Paramedic: Well, when I was a kid, back before I could go and see any film I wanted, my mother would read books to me and my sister to pass the time. Eventually, she read us one book about a scientist trying to create, and control life.

For a while, it was my favourite book. I remember reading it over and over again, and even thinking about what I would do if I were in the scientists' place. It must sound silly to you, but it kept me interested in the sciences while my sister and my friends grew into the normal interests teenaged girls had.

When I heard that they were finally releasing a movie based on the book, I could hardly contain myself! My parents didn't want me to see Frankenstein, because they said it would scare me, but I snuck out the night it was released and saw it three times in a row. My parents were so worried because I was gone for so long, that when I came home they weren't even upset that I had left in the first place.

Snake, Frankenstein dedicated his life to try and better humanity, and he paid for it by being destroyed by his creation. It's an amazing thought that shows not to obsess over something too much, or it will ruin you. Remember to keep a level head in the battlefield.

Imagine..being destroyed by your own creation. Good thing it was just a movie, huh?"

Surely that's enough?

(I'm playing through MGS3 right now and, because of our conversation, stuff is jumping out!)
 
however I never saw any sort of an explanation for how what they did connected to the Boss' ideals, situation or perceived ideals by the time the credits for MGS4 rolled.

I kind of disagree.

Boss's ideal, at least in the eyes of how it's perceived by the original Patriots was "a unified world", one without borders and territorial conflict. Patriots took that to the extreme extent of information warfare, control. And the foundation concepts in MGS2 was ultimately how they could manipulate people through the manipulation of information, which would put humanity under their control, thus being capable of unifying them.

However, there is one important thing to note at this juncture.

It's the fact that by this point of time, the Patriots are nothing more than a bunch of A.I.

MGS4 spoiler :
Big Boss himself said, at the end of MGS4, that even Zero's vision of the unified world, ended up being distorted by the AI whom, rather than create that unified world, ended up just perpetuating a cycle of war economy to maintain control, because that was what the system determined as the unified world ruled by the singular economics of war.

The Patriots that Solid Snake face mostly throughout the MGS2/4 saga, is at that point of time, already nothing more than a massive distortion of even the distorted perspective that the founders started with in the first place.
 

Window

Member
There are loads of hints about Paramedic. She has an obsession with science and science-fiction, a big deal os made out of her not telling Snake her name (Dr Clark), there are a couple of CODECs at the beginning of this video that offer some foreshadowing... (I think she mentions something in there about technology changing the way people think with specific reference to morals and ethics...)

...and then there's this:



Surely that's enough?

(I'm playing through MGS3 right now and, because of our conversation, stuff is jumping out!)

It's not enough for me. All the dialogue you've quoted shows a tenuous relationship at best. In this instance being destroyed by your creation (Clone) and by obsession fits Big Boss' future more closely. All the wink wink nudge nudge dialogue is about the future yes (which was apparent at the time of the game's release let alone in retrospect), but it's more about the future in general and the future as depicted by past MG games and not the support team's future. On a lighter note, what do you make of Zero making a remark about not being surprised at 20 more James Bond films in the future? Was he Albert R. Broccoli undercover?

I think this is kind of irrelevant though because the stated motivation in the games for the team forming the Patriots was their devotion to The Boss. Except in Snake's and maybe Eva's instance, that never came across as true for the rest of the cast.

For the most part I don't mind plot holes (and I don't mind this twist all that much either, it just doesn't seem genuine that's all). The worst is when a game is boring. I've been watching Metal Gear Scanlon for all the past entries up till now but I'm not sure if I'll make it through with MGS4. It's just not very interesting.
 

Alienous

Member
I kind of disagree.

Boss's ideal, at least in the eyes of how it's perceived by the original Patriots was "a unified world", one without borders and territorial conflict. Patriots took that to the extreme extent of information warfare, control. And the foundation concepts in MGS2 was ultimately how they could manipulate people through the manipulation of information, which would put humanity under their control, thus being capable of unifying them.

However, there is one important thing to note at this juncture.

It's the fact that by this point of time, the Patriots are nothing more than a bunch of A.I.

MGS4 spoiler :
Big Boss himself said, at the end of MGS4, that even Zero's vision of the unified world, ended up being distorted by the AI whom, rather than create that unified world, ended up just perpetuating a cycle of war economy to maintain control, because that was what the system determined as the unified world ruled by the singular economics of war.

The Patriots that Solid Snake face mostly throughout the MGS2/4 saga, is at that point of time, already nothing more than a massive distortion of even the distorted perspective that the founders started with in the first place.

Right. Zero heads the Patriots until Big Boss is dead (he is 'killed' in 1999), at which point he has no trust in allies, so he relinquishes control to the AI.

The AI is the villain of the series, essentially. It remains to be seen just how 'evil' Zero and the pre-AI Patriots are in MGSV. As it stands the series is about a group of misguided, influential people setting in motion a series of events that accidentally allows a malicious Artificial Intelligence to manipulate the world. Now that could all change depending on how Zero is written in MGSV.

It's not enough for me. All the dialogue you've quoted shows a tenuous relationship at best. In this instance being destroyed by your creation (Clone) and by obsession fits Big Boss' future more closely. All the wink wink nudge nudge dialogue is about the future yes (which was apparent at the time of the game's release let alone in retrospect), but it's more about the future in general and the future as depicted by past MG games and not the support team's future. On a lighter note, what do you make of Zero making a remark about not being surprised at 20 more James Bond films in the future? Was he Albert R. Broccoli undercover?

I think this is kind of irrelevant though because the stated motivation in the games for the team forming the Patriots was their devotion to The Boss. Except in Snake's and maybe Eva's instance, that never came across as true for the rest of the cast.

Paramedic was killed by her own creation, that creation being the Cyborg Ninja.

The problem with Zero is we don't get to see his 'heel turn' on screen. He believes that The Boss betrayed the United States, and is convinced of that all throughout Snake Eater. He and The Boss were part of the SAS, they were allies, and Zero had a lot of respect for her. It is entirely possible that discovering the US Government manipulated him into orchestrating an operation to kill someone that same Goverment were using as a scapegoat could cause him to have a dark turn similar to Big Boss'.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
It's not enough for me. All the dialogue you've quoted shows a tenuous relationship at best. In this instance being destroyed by your creation (Clone) and by obsession fits Big Boss' future more closely. All the wink wink nudge nudge dialogue is about the future yes (which was apparent at the time of the game's release let alone in retrospect), but it's more about the future in general and the future as depicted by past MG games and not the support team's future.

...and that was absolutely the case... until they were revealed to be The Patriots in MGS4. Then it turns from a series meta-reference to in-story foreshadowing, that's why it is so impressive. Don't forget that each character talks about future series events that are specifically linked to them, and that the main theme of MGS3 is how allies and enemies change with the times.

Paramedic was killed by her own creation, that creation being the Cyborg Ninja.

Exactly.

I wouldn't describe that as tenuous. It's on the nose, if anything. Sigint's description of the Major too basically spells out his involvement with The Patriots and their future plans. It isn't a big leap from one to the other.

On a lighter note, what do you make of Zero making a remark about not being surprised at 20 more James Bond films in the future? Was he Albert R. Broccoli undercover?

I'm certain Zero insisted the series last that long, yes. Paramedic also kept Godzilla going, as well as got two remakes of The Thing greenlit.
 
I think the moronic Vamp and Liquid reversals takes the cake.

In MGS2, Vamp is described as a "vampire". He can read muscle movements, freeze someone's shadows, casually drinks blood, can walk on water and can run up strut poles. His backstory is that he got impaled by a cross, and that he had to survive by drinking the blood of his family. He can get shot in the head just fine, and has absolutely no troubles getting out of the oil cleaning facility's water bassin, which are supposed to be so filled with oil breaking enzymes than anything that falls in there never comes back up.

Then, comes MGS2 and we learn that Vamp was immortal because of Nanomachines. That gives no explaination on how he could read muscle movements, walk on water, freeze shadows and all those other supernatural abilities he posessed in MGS2.. And it's supposed to make sense, because Nanomachines give you the ability to walk on water, to heal any wound , to read people's muscle movents and to freeze your Shadows, somehow (not naomi though, she only gets cancer treatment from them). And don't get me started on emo Naomi's speech "I developed a cure for cancer, a way to be immortal, and as such , I deserve to die.Naomi, you evil scumbag, inventing what would account to the lifetime nobel prize for "best invention of all time. She would be forever remembered as the person that cured cancer and rendered death irrelevant... She clearly deserves to die for this !!!

Then there's the Liquid's situation. In MGS2, liquid posessed Ocelot trough his severed armed, grafted onto Ocelot's body. When ocelot is posessed, he has two heartbeats and speaks using Liquid's voice. Yet the Official Database claim Liquid never actually posessed Ocelot, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Instead, the "explaination" we get, if we can call it that, is that Ocelot used hypnotherapy and nanomachines on himself to fool the patriots into thinking he was acting under Liquid's will ... Which makes no sense whatsoever. He removed his so called "arm" and replaced it with a cyborg one... And he's not even trying to hide that fact, he's always shirtless, showing off his cyborg arm. If he wanted to pretend he was posessed by an arm, why did he remove the fricking arm again ? Don't get me started on Liquid saying "Why do you think I CHOSE Ocelot as my Host" to Snake either !! Are we really supposed to believe Liquid anticipated all this , that he knew he would die in Shadow Moses, that Ocelot would be in need of an arm, and that he somehow knew he had what it took to mind control someone after death... Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb.

I guess we're supposed to believe Ocelot actually got posessed by Liquid's arm, then he removed it and replaced it with a cyborg arm, but kept the cover story of him being posessed by using hypnotherapy and nanomachines to trick himself into believing he is Liquid Snake.. But really, I think that's the dumbest plot twist I ever heard in my entire life. I'll say it again, what exactly can Liquid Ocelot accomplish that Revolver Ocelot could not ? There is no indication in any MGS games about Ocelot being mind-controlled by the patriots, and perhaps that's what Kojima is hinting at... That ocelot needed the Liquid personna to get out of the patriot's control... But if it's the case, it's not explained at all in MGS4's plot.

Which leaves open the following question : what does having Ocelot acting as Liquid accomplish that could not be accomplished by Ocelot acting as Ocelot? As a matter of fact, how the hell does Ocelot manage to get 5 PMCs up and running in a Patriot-Controlled world again ? Because he's pretending to be possessed by Liquid ? Why would this suddently allow this kind of control ? No explaination is given about all those key plot point, yet the game spends hours upon hours in cutscenes, epilogues and pre-mission briefings. And why the hell does Ocelot spend 5 act trying to kill Solid Snake when he's the only one capable to stop the AI by infecting Arsenal Gear with a Virus... ?

Then there's the "gigantic flying mechs with evolved AI in the 70s" crap of Peace Walker... Especially when said mechs put the Metal Gears in MG1, MG2:SS and MGS to shame in terms of their technology. And clearly, Kojima didn't learn his lesson... Now we can litterally open up fricking Worholes to teleport Jeeps and soldiers to mothebase once we upgrade the fulton... Sigh, that realistic 80s technology, along with cyborg arms and Idroids...

I really love Kojima, I think he makes great characters and interesting stories... But honestly, I can't help but think that he's a terrible writer when it comes to plot twists and character motivations. From Liquid claiming he's going to launch the nuke after Snake destroys Metal Gear REX and when bombers are two minutes away... From REX being left behind as a 97% percent functionnal mech in Alaska for years that can be Jump-Started by Otacon in a couple of minutes, to the Patriot's AI in MGS2 that sank two tankers, destroyed the big shell, allowed terrorists to crash Arsenal Gear into New York so they could see if they can create context, censor the net and test if you can make an unstable rookie complete a mission by pretending to be an AI version of Colonel Cambell and saying "Raiden, you must finish your mission"!!! Really, as much as a I like the guy and his game, sometimes he's just a moron, unable to write something that make any sense.
 

Dremark

Banned
I kind of disagree.

Boss's ideal, at least in the eyes of how it's perceived by the original Patriots was "a unified world", one without borders and territorial conflict. Patriots took that to the extreme extent of information warfare, control. And the foundation concepts in MGS2 was ultimately how they could manipulate people through the manipulation of information, which would put humanity under their control, thus being capable of unifying them.

However, there is one important thing to note at this juncture.

It's the fact that by this point of time, the Patriots are nothing more than a bunch of A.I.

MGS4 spoiler :
Big Boss himself said, at the end of MGS4, that even Zero's vision of the unified world, ended up being distorted by the AI whom, rather than create that unified world, ended up just perpetuating a cycle of war economy to maintain control, because that was what the system determined as the unified world ruled by the singular economics of war.

The Patriots that Solid Snake face mostly throughout the MGS2/4 saga, is at that point of time, already nothing more than a massive distortion of even the distorted perspective that the founders started with in the first place.

Good point. Oh well, sometimes I'm wrong.

Right. Zero heads the Patriots until Big Boss is dead (he is 'killed' in 1999), at which point he has no trust in allies, so he relinquishes control to the AI.

The AI is the villain of the series, essentially. It remains to be seen just how 'evil' Zero and the pre-AI Patriots are in MGSV. As it stands the series is about a group of misguided, influential people setting in motion a series of events that accidentally allows a malicious Artificial Intelligence to manipulate the world. Now that could all change depending on how Zero is written in MGSV.

Zero is definitely the villain of the series. The AI runs itself later on but even in Portable Ops and Peace Walker the stuff he does on his own is not stuff you can hand wave as him having good intentions.

...and that was absolutely the case... until they were revealed to be The Patriots in MGS4. Then it turns from a series meta-reference to in-story foreshadowing, that's why it is so impressive. Don't forget that each character talks about future series events that are specifically linked to them, and that the main theme of MGS3 is how allies and enemies change with the times.

Exactly.

I wouldn't describe that as tenuous. It's on the nose, if anything. Sigint's description of the Major too basically spells out his involvement with The Patriots and their future plans. It isn't a big leap from one to the other.

I'm certain Zero insisted the series last that long, yes. Paramedic also kept Godzilla going, as well as got two remakes of The Thing greenlit.

It's tenuous. The stuff Paramedic talks about was pretty much taken by everyone as references to what happens with Big Boss later and the stuff with Signit fits in with his work basically creating the internet with DARPA which they explain at the end of MGS3.

Admittedly, you have convinced me, but the evidence itself isn't exactly airtight. The really obvious flaw is Dr. Clark and Paramedic aren't the same gender, as if this was planned he really shouldn't have to retcon something like that. Another point that makes it questionable is that Kojima has gone on record stating that he doesn't plan anything past the game he's working on in advance so it wouldn't really make any sense for him to plan that out either.
 
The really obvious flaw is Dr. Clark and Paramedic aren't the same gender, as if this was planned he really shouldn't have to retcon something like that. Another point that makes it questionable is that Kojima has gone on record stating that he doesn't plan anything past the game he's working on in advance so it wouldn't really make any sense for him to plan that out either.

I don't think anyone thinks Kojima had any of this in mind when making MGS1. The question is just did he have it in mind when making MGS3?
 

Dremark

Banned
I don't think anyone thinks Kojima had any of this in mind when making MGS1. The question is just did he have it in mind when making MGS3?

I wasn't questioning if he had it in mind when making MSG1. When he was making Metal Gear Solid 3, he would have known that Dr. Clark had been established as being male, so it doesn't point to Paramedic being planned as him when the genders don't match.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
It's tenuous. The stuff Paramedic talks about was pretty much taken by everyone as references to what happens with Big Boss later and the stuff with Signit fits in with his work basically creating the internet with DARPA which they explain at the end of MGS3.

I don't think we're using the same meaning of "tenuous" :D

The fact that they were originally seen as meta-references and turned out to be character foreshadowing is what I find so impressive.

Admittedly, you have convinced me, but the evidence itself isn't exactly airtight. The really obvious flaw is Dr. Clark and Paramedic aren't the same gender, as if this was planned he really shouldn't have to retcon something like that.

I don't think he came up with the idea prior to MGS3. I would presume that he decided he wanted a girl in the support team and, for whatever reason, chose her. It's funny because I'm pretty sure Paramedic sort of addresses retconning (as well as realism in fiction) in a CODEC saying not to worry about it. :D

Another point that makes it questionable is that Kojima has gone on record stating that he doesn't plan anything past the game he's working on in advance so it wouldn't really make any sense for him to plan that out either.

He also said he would quit the series after MGS2, MGS3, and MGS4. :D

I don't think he plans the games out, I just think he knew the identity of The Patriots when writing MGS3. That's two very different things.
 

Dremark

Banned
I don't think we're using the same meaning of "tenuous" :D

The fact that they were originally seen as meta-references and turned out to be character foreshadowing is what I find so impressive.

I don't think he came up with the idea prior to MGS3. I would presume that he decided he wanted a girl in the support team and, for whatever reason, chose her. It's funny because I'm pretty sure Paramedic sort of addresses retconning (as well as realism in fiction) in a CODEC saying not to worry about it. :D

He also said he would quit the series after MGS2, MGS3, and MGS4. :D

I don't think he plans the games out, I just think he knew the identity of The Patriots when writing MGS3. That's two very different things.

It's not the most convincing argument because it's just as believable that it's a coincidence and there's evidence pointing away from it too.

There are plausible arguments on both sides so it could easily be either way, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he planned it, although honestly it would be interesting if it were a coincidence too.

Also saying "I wrote my stories this way" I think holds more water than "These are my future plans". I think Kojima was actually planning after those games but things didn't work out that way for him. To his credit he also said that he was done after Metal Gear Solid 5 and while everyone scoffed at him, I'm thinking there's a pretty good chance he is actually going to walk away from the series this time
and he'll probably be escorted by Konami's security when he does.
 

Javier23

Banned
Can there really be people actually sincerely believing that the MGS3 cast turning out to be the Patriots was planned that long before? I'll never cease to be amazed by the ability of some individuals to delude themselves, here turning the horrendously bad into a brilliant twist years in the making.

Surely had Kojima planned who the Patriots were after MGS2 both 3 and 4 would have turned out very differently. MGS3 would have had actual foreshadowing and character development, and MGS4 wouldn't have had the shittiest narrative in the whole series due, precisely, to the terrible and completely unsatisfying answers it gives to many of the longstanding enigmas of the series.
 
Can there really be people actually sincerely believing that the MGS3 cast turning out to be the Patriots was planned that long before? I'll never cease to be amazed by the ability of some individuals to delude themselves, here turning the horrendously bad into a brilliant twist years in the making.

Surely had Kojima planned who the Patriots were after MGS2 both 3 and 4 would have turned out very differently. MGS3 would have had actual foreshadowing and character development, and MGS4 wouldn't have had the shittiest narrative in the whole series due, precisely, to the terrible and completely unsatisfying answers it gives to many of the longstanding enigmas of the series.

"Snake, did I ever tell you the reason I got into science in the first place?

[No, I don't think you've mentioned it before.]

Well, when I was a kid, back before I could go and see any film I wanted, my mother would read books to me and my sister to pass the time. Eventually, she read us one book about a scientist trying to create, and control life.

For a while, it was my favourite book. I remember reading it over and over again, and even thinking about what I would do if I were in the scientists' place. It must sound silly to you, but it kept me interested in the sciences while my sister and my friends grew into the normal interests teenaged girls had.

When I heard that they were finally releasing a movie based on the book, I could hardly contain myself! My parents didn't want me to see Frankenstein, because they said it would scare me, but I snuck out the night it was released and saw it three times in a row. My parents were so worried because I was gone for so long, that when I came home they weren't even upset that I had left in the first place.

Snake, Frankenstein dedicated his life to try and better humanity, and he paid for it by being destroyed by his creation. It's an amazing thought that shows not to obsess over something too much, or it will ruin you. Remember to keep a level head in the battlefield.

Imagine..being destroyed by your own creation. Good thing it was just a movie, huh?"


2:
Para-Medic: Snake, whatever happends to you make sure you leave a descendant, OK?

Snake: Are you saying you want to have my baby?

Para-Medic: No. I'm saying that in the 21st century, the genes of soldiers like you are going to be in high demand.

Snake: Genes?

Para-Medic: Uh huh. Remember when Watson & Crick discovered the double helix structure of DNA back in 1953?

Snake: No

Para-Medic: You know, they won the Nobel Prize in Medicine for it the year before last? Of course you have to feel sorry for Pauling & Franklin. They were researching the exact same thing.

Snake: Sorry I dont follow

Para-Medic: The inherent characteristics of any given individual are determined by his or her genes. By duplicating a set of superior genes, a seperate body with the same set of characteristics - a clone - can be created.

Snake: But genes dont control a persons fate

Para-Medic: Thats true. But having an offspring thats genetically identical to the parent is more efficient, right? You can expect better results that way

Snake: More efficient? You cant mass produce human beings!

Para-Medic: Maybe. But now that we know the true nature of genes, human cloning is that much closer to reality. Nuclear transplanting is already theoretically possible. So one day...

Snake: My genes are going to be a valuable commodity?

Para-Medic: Exactly

Snake: They'd never let that happen

Para-Medic: Just think – even if your body dies, you survive and go on to bigger and better accomplishments. If you think about it, it’s kind of an honor.

Snake: Does that kind of technology seriously appeal to you?

Para-Medic: Well, I am a doctor.

Snake: ...

Para-Medic: I can’t condone it on moral grounds, but I’m fascinated by the possibilities. Especially when I see such an excellent specimen as yourself.

Snake: Yeah, well, thanks for the compliment, but it doesn't make me feel any better.

Para-Medic: Don’t be so glum. It’s not like it’s going to happen anytime soon. We’ll just have to wait and see.

3:
Snake: Tell me something, Sigint...
Sigint: What's that?
Snake: What does 'Sigint' mean, anyway?
Sigint: It's short for 'Signal Intelligence.'
Snake: Signal Intelligence?
Sigint: The part of intelligence that deals with electronic information. Things like intercepting and analyzing electronic communications, determining enemy force strength and positioning from radar emissions and radio chatter - you get the idea. Codebreaking is considered part of SIGINT as well. 40 years from now, we'll be in the age of electronic warfare. It won't be long before information replaces firepower as the most valuable commodity on the battlefield.
Snake: So you're saying they won't need guys like me anymore?
Sigint: Sorry to break it to you, but that's not gonna happen. No matter how advanced our technology gets, there's still no substitute for human beings.
Snake: ...
Sigint: Anyway, the major is a man of foresight. He knew the electronic age was coming, and so he called out to me.
Snake: And you responded.
Sigint: Well, I didn't have anyplace else to do.
Snake: You couldn't find a job?
Sigint: Nope. None of the places where they do this kind of high-tech research would even let me in the door.
Snake: Why not? I know you've got social problems, but...
Sigint: Come again?
Snake: Nothing. I mean, someone with your talent ought to be able to...
Sigint: Yeah, well, maybe it had something to do with the fact that I'm black.
Snake: ...
Sigint: The major, though, he doesn't care about what color you are. I've never met anyone like him before. He's...different, you know?
Snake: Oh, yeah, I know.
Sigint: I don't think racism's going to go away even in the 21st century. But I want to work with computers and use them to bring people closer together. In the digital world, it doesn't matter whether you're black or white, American or Russian, or whatever. Everybody's going to be the same. That's what I think.

You tell me? Coincidence?
 
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