I think that's just part of the retcon. I don't believe Ocelot was supposed to be "faking" during MGS2; as far as Kojima was concerned he was almost certainly being possessed by Liquid back then. MGS4 changed things up and so Liquid's voice was excised. (I'm not so sure the MGS database explanation that Ocelot was actually possessed in MGS2 and then faked it for MGS4 is something that the game's writers even had in mind, honestly. But who knows.)
IIRC, Ocelot's english voice actor voiced the Liquid parts in the MGS2 motion comic which came out before MGS4. I think that's where the "voice retcon" originated, kinda-sorta-not really like the removal of the character accents in Twin Snakes which carried over to MGS4.
Having just finished MGS1, and reading through this thread, I'm realizing how much of what makes MGS confusing story-wise is Ocelot. The player is constantly trying to figure out who the hell he's working for while getting other stuff thrown at them.
Having just finished MGS1, and reading through this thread, I'm realizing how much of what makes MGS confusing story-wise is Ocelot. The player is constantly trying to figure out who the hell he's working for while getting other stuff thrown at them.
What I learned from Neogaf: A game has to be either 100% serious or 100% silly. It can't be both.
People will call it shit either way though. If it's serious the game will be made fun of for being "grimdark", 2edgy4me, etc.
If it's silly it'll be called batshit insane, "I can't take this game seriously or anyone who likes it", etc.
If it's a mix of both (like metal gear): "terrible writing," "tonal shifts lol"," shit story," etc.
On topic: MGS's story has never even been bad or convoluted until MGS4. The story is still better than most game "stories." At least a lot of work and care is put in to it
From what I can remember, he's basically just on team Ocelot. Throughout the series he's been using whatever faction he can weasel into as a means to his own personal end, and that end is fulfilling his interpretation of Big Boss's wishes.
So...the answer is partly he's on team big boss and partly his own team. But someone more well versed in the lore can probably explain it a lot better/correct me.
The Pain and Volgin having no logical in-universe explanation
MGS4
Mt. Snakemore
Eva burning herself alive over Solidus
Ocelot tricking a computer into believing in ghosts
Johnny X Meryl
There are a million more that I won't even attempt typing out
MGSPW
Kojima's massive technology retcon that messes up almost the entire series
Pacifica Ocean
The Boss AI
IN DEFENSE OF THE ARM:
It becomes a little less ridiculous when you factor in that Ocelot's father was a hardcore spiritual medium. But there was also this line...
Liquid : I'm off to bury the Patriots for good.
Solidus : You know where they are? How?
Liquid : Why do you think I chose Ocelot as my host?
Wait, does that mean...? Could he have chosen someone besides Ocelot? Do they need to have a piece of his body? Did he "will" Ocelot into getting The Arm?
He is on big boss's side as he and Eva started the plan to kill the rest of the patriots. He just remained a double agent the whole time, he continued to work for the patriots while using the liquid arm thing as an excuse to do stuff the patriots did not want him to do.
It serves its purpose though the fact it is basically an info dump is suboptimal. Definitely the point where the overarching story "clicked" for me as I had not attempted to really piece it together before.
That cutscene was mindblowing. Follow that up with the epic bike chase, a boss battle then Ocelot taking over the worlds military, can't think of many if any games that had me that engaged and hyped up.
As of right now the biggest unexplained plot twist is how Big Boss goes from where he is in Peacewalker, GroundZeroes, and TPP too being Solid Snake and Foxhound's commanding officer. A unit of soldiers working for the US government.
Second only too Big Boss being killed twice by his own soldier/clone but still comes out unscathed and lives out his old age.
This thread is a fun way to reminisce on the MGS series and saddens me as well because it reminds me how MGS5 will be the end of an era. What other video game series will ever reach this level of depth and intrigue that Kojima put into the entirety of MGS? Whether you love the series or hate it, it was meticulous and had tons of charm from the original up until this very moment.
I've always been more of a fan of deeper stories(like MGS and Dark Souls, both opposite sides of a spectrum) that bring about great video fan theories and long, well written articles rather than series that just bring the usual blockbuster plots and twists we've all grown used to. I hope someone else out there steps up to the plate after Kojima bows out.
Wait, does that mean...? Could he have chosen someone besides Ocelot? Do they need to have a piece of his body? Did he "will" Ocelot into getting The Arm?
I love how in MGS2, Liquid is able to possess Ocelot via his arm (which was ridiculous), then MGS3 provides a sort of explanation of why that could happen (Ocelot's father was a powerful spirit medium and actual ghost) which made it at least a little better, then in Big Boss's speech at the end of 4 he basically says "you can't possess someone through an arm that's fucking dumb, come on."
Also how the fuck does one hypnotize oneself? Stand in front of a mirror and swing a watch?
If I remember correctly it was explained that he kept his cover "hypnotizing" himself into being Liquid Snake using drugs and Nanomachines. It wasn't so much that the act itself was impossible it's more that it was ridiculous that the story had him do that. It also led to the twist of making Ocelot a hero as someone else went into more detail on.
I really feel that the absolute worst plot twists in this series were the result of them trying to make the events and characters in MSG3 significant to the rest of the series.
As much as I love it in MGS2, Liquid's arm is just absurd. It gets worse in MGS4 I feel. Ocelot and Liquid are both such great characters that I feel that Kojima had to think of SOMETHING to keep them both in the story.
Kojima has made several comments about how he regretted killing Liquid off because of how popular he is. I think that he felt the need to keep him around for that reason despite how difficult working him in would be.
Or maybe you're right, I know I'm at least a bit biased in that a feel he's a terrible character.
As of right now the biggest unexplained plot twist is how Big Boss goes from where he is in Peacewalker, GroundZeroes, and TPP too being Solid Snake and Foxhound's commanding officer. A unit of soldiers working for the US government.
Second only too Big Boss being killed twice by his own soldier/clone but still comes out unscathed and lives out his old age.
To be fair Metal Gear 1 makes it perfectly clear boss is not dead at the end of the game, at least the version I played through. The final line in the game was him taunting Snake iirc.
So knowing I would never play through Portable Ops or Peace Walker I watched the cut scenes on YouTube. There seems to be stuff left out that connects certain games to others, at least in what I watched.
For example: The MGS Wiki says that prior to Ground Zeroes, Chico goes to rescue Paz because he is in love with her and gets caught, leading to the events of GZ. I didn't hear that relationship mentioned in what I watched of Peace Walker. Regardless, how are we supposed to know that's why Chico is captured at the beginning of GZ?
Again in regards to segwaying from PW to GZ: From what I read online it seems like at the time of Ground Zeroes/The Phantom Pain it's essentially Big Boss and the MSF vs. Zero and the Patriots, but at the end of Peace Walker I didn't get any indication that that's where the series was headed. It basically ended with
Big Boss waxing poetic about how it's them against the world. No mention of Zero in any of this.
Do the Codec conversations cover this stuff? If not I don't know how there's so much story filled in on the MGS Wiki when it's not covered in the games.
The simple act of Liquid impersonating Miller with sunglasses. Should have seen it coming, same voice actor, Master unreachable when fighting Liquid, but that moment is still amazing.
So, this thread has reaffirmed my position on MGS, having not played the most recent iterations:
It's totally fine to love MGS. Enjoy it if you like it. But please, for goodness sakes, stop trying to convince me that it's mature and deep and serious and artistic. I don't like Mario platforming games either, but at least the fans of those games don't try to convince me that Mario is super deep. It's childish fun, and that's okay.
On point. With this in mind however I am REALLY curious to see how Kojima is going to tackle extremely serious topics like child soldiers and other torture in MGSV. This could horribly backfire if he does it wrong.
The simple act of Liquid impersonating Miller with sunglasses. Should have seen it coming, same voice actor, Master unreachable when fighting Liquid, but that moment is still amazing.
On point. With this in mind however I am REALLY curious to see how Kojima is going to tackle extremely serious topics like child soldiers and other torture in MGSV. This could horribly backfire if he does it wrong.
If I remember correctly it was explained that he kept his cover "hypnotizing" himself into being Liquid Snake using drugs and Nanomachines. It wasn't so much that the act itself was impossible it's more that it was ridiculous that the story had him do that. It also led to the twist of making Ocelot a hero as someone else went into more detail on.
I really feel that the absolute worst plot twists in this series were the result of them trying to make the events and characters in MSG3 significant to the rest of the series.
Well MGS3 was made to explain who are and why the patriots exist but it failed miserably, there was not a hint that any of the support team would become the patriots. That is why it didn't work. The worst part is that all the big boss games after that also failed to explain why they became the patriots, it has always till this point failed to show big boss actually turn on the patriots. The Big Boss story has been a total mess.
After watching the latest Metal Gear Scanlon, I think it's your team from MGS3 being the patriots. Felt like a complete contradiction to the characters established in 3. Even if they were supposed to have been deeply affected by the events which transpired in 3, it didn't feel like that at the end of 3. If they simply changed as people over the years, cramming that in in a 10 minute expositional cutscene consisting of nothing but voice-over and storyboard art was not a good way to convincingly communicate that.
I think the general consensus is on the Liquid Ocelot thing. I just shut my brain down everytime they get to that plot point and pretend it's not there.
The simple act of Liquid impersonating Miller with sunglasses. Should have seen it coming, same voice actor, Master unreachable when fighting Liquid, but that moment is still amazing.
The Pain and Volgin having no logical in-universe explanation
MGS4
Mt. Snakemore
Eva burning herself alive over Solidus
Ocelot tricking a computer into believing in ghosts
Johnny X Meryl
There are a million more that I won't even attempt typing out
MGSPW
Kojima's massive technology retcon that messes up almost the entire series
Pacifica Ocean
The Boss AI
IN DEFENSE OF THE ARM:
It becomes a little less ridiculous when you factor in that Ocelot's father was a hardcore spiritual medium. But there was also this line...
Wait, does that mean...? Could he have chosen someone besides Ocelot? Do they need to have a piece of his body? Did he "will" Ocelot into getting The Arm?
So knowing I would never play through Portable Ops or Peace Walker I watched the cut scenes on YouTube. There seems to be stuff left out that connects certain games to others, at least in what I watched.
For example: The MGS Wiki says that prior to Ground Zeroes, Chico goes to rescue Paz because he is in love with her and gets caught, leading to the events of GZ. I didn't hear that relationship mentioned in what I watched of Peace Walker. Regardless, how are we supposed to know that's why Chico is captured at the beginning of GZ?
Again in regards to segwaying from PW to GZ: From what I read online it seems like at the time of Ground Zeroes/The Phantom Pain it's essentially Big Boss and the MSF vs. Zero and the Patriots, but at the end of Peace Walker I didn't get any indication that that's where the series was headed. It basically ended with
Big Boss waxing poetic about how it's them against the world. No mention of Zero in any of this.
Do the Codec conversations cover this stuff? If not I don't know how there's so much story filled in on the MGS Wiki when it's not covered in the games.
A lot of those "MGS[x]: The Movie" videos leave out codecs and the audio tapes. They have a ton of info in them that gets skipped if only watching the cut scenes.
Well MGS3 was made to explain who are and why the patriots exist but it failed miserably, there was not a hint that any of the support team would become the patriots. That is why it didn't work. The worst part is that all the big boss games after that also failed to explain why they became the patriots, it has always till this point failed to show big boss actually turn on the patriots. The Big Boss story has been a total mess.
I really doubt they actually planned the support team to be the Patriots, I have very little doubt that was decided later.
Peacewalker actually did a good job connecting itself to the later games with the AI but aside from Zero just kind of being a villain who sits in the background pulling strings they haven't done anything to make them becoming the Patriots make any sense at all.
Every game ends in a spot where Big Boss can move on to Outer Heaven and have it make sense. The Patriots don't get the same sort of consideration for thier development.
There is no problem with this. People asked for explanations after MGS2 and we got nanomachines crammed into every available orifice. It's best to just let some things be.
After watching the latest Metal Gear Scanlon, I think it's your team from MGS3 being the patriots. Felt like a complete contradiction to the characters established in 3. Even if they were supposed to have been deeply affected by the events which transpired in 3, it didn't feel like that at the end of 3. If they simply changed as people over the years, cramming that in in a 10 minute expositional cutscene consisting of nothing but voice-over and storyboard art was not a good way to convincingly communicate that.
They founded the Patriots. I don't know if I'd say they changed. Allow me to explain.
So Zero stole part of the Philosopher's Legacy to create the Patriots. There's a scene in Portable Ops (which has a weird canonicity, but this scene is necessary for the events of MGS4) where Ocelot steals half of the Legacy for Zero.
So we know that the Patriots was formed by those involved in Operation Snake Eater (a bunch of people who saw the behind the scenes corruption). Zero's idea is to present Big Boss as an hero to galvanize the world, but Big Boss decided against that and left the organisation. So they decide to clone him to have as insurance (arguably their only evil act).
Peace Walker is where the turn starts. The Patriots decide to be on the ground floor of the electronic age, and in doing so begin to research AI.
[Now this is the area of time that we will explore in The Phantom Pain. But, essentially, Big Boss becomes the bad guy, and Cipher decide to stop him (at least as we know it now). They are able to do so in Metal Gear 2. This causes Ocelot and Eva to leave, but Paramedic and Sigint stay.]
The important thing to understand is by the time MGS1 rolls around Zero is too old to manage the Patriots, and thus the aforementioned AI is in charge. Everything fucked up that happens regarding the Patriots from MGS1 onwards is the AI deciding what the world should be like (so things like fucking with Raiden, and the War Economy). Zero dies as an old man regretful because of this.
TL;DR: The Patriots as we think of them is basically AI which Zero decided should be created that over time gained control over the world while Zero and Big Boss were having a personal feud. 95% of what you think of as the Patriots' doing is the accidental rampant influence of the AI.
After watching the latest Metal Gear Scanlon, I think it's your team from MGS3 being the patriots. Felt like a complete contradiction to the characters established in 3. Even if they were supposed to have been deeply affected by the events which transpired in 3, it didn't feel like that at the end of 3. If they simply changed as people over the years, cramming that in in a 10 minute expositional cutscene consisting of nothing but voice-over and storyboard art was not a good way to convincingly communicate that.
Is that not basically the theme of Snake Eater? "Scene"?
Your closest allies can become your greatest enemies depending on arbitrary circumstance.
People like to complain that the Patriots being the MGS3 cast was a bad twist shoehorned into MGS4, but I think it was pretty clearly established from the start.
They founded the Patriots. I don't know if I'd say they changed. Allow me to explain.
So Zero stole part of the Philosopher's Legacy to create the Patriots. There's a scene in Portable Ops (which has a weird canonicity, but this scene is necessary for the events of MGS4) where Ocelot steals half of the Legacy for Zero.
So we know that the Patriots was formed by those involved in Operation Snake Eater (a bunch of people who saw the behind the scenes corruption). Zero's idea is to present Big Boss as an hero to galvanize the world, but Big Boss decided against that and left the organisation. So they decide to clone him to have as insurance (arguably their only evil act).
Peace Walker is where the turn starts. The Patriots decide to be on the ground floor of the electronic age, and in doing so begin to research AI.
[Now this is the area of time that we will explore in The Phantom Pain. But, essentially, Big Boss becomes the bad guy, and Cipher decide to stop him (at least as we know it now). They are able to do so in Metal Gear 2. This causes Ocelot and Eva to leave, but Paramedic and Sigint stay.]
The important thing to understand is by the time MGS1 rolls around Zero is too old to manage the Patriots, and thus the aforementioned AI is in charge. Everything fucked up that happens regarding the Patriots from MGS1 onwards is the AI deciding what the world should be like (so things like fucking with Raiden, and the War Economy). Zero dies as an old man regretful because of this.
TL;DR: The Patriots as we think of them is basically AI which Zero decided should be created that over time gained control over the world while Zero and Big Boss were having a personal feud. 95% of what you think of as the Patriots' doing is the accidental rampant influence of the AI.
They retconed Paramedic into being Dr. Clark and doing all those terrible experiments to Frank Jaeger. It's stuff like that that people don't buy why they became the Patriots, you can say it happens and can use logistics to show it, but the motivations and character changes make no sense.
Supposedly they viewed the Boss so highly and wanted to continue her will but that's not reflected in MGS3 at all from what I recall. The while thing feels like a twist to connect MGS3 and Kojima hasn't really done much to make it gel after the fact.
Is that not basically the theme of Snake Eater? "Scene"?
Your closest allies can become your greatest enemies depending on arbitrary circumstance.
People like to complain that the Patriots being the MGS3 cast was a bad twist shoehorned into MGS4, but I think it was pretty clearly established from the start.
For me the issue is not enemies or allies but a complete lack of any sign of motivation or ambition from the team members to pull of such a thing. Zero never struck me as someone who would be capable of even engaging in something like the the idea of the patriots. He seemed like an old-fashioned soldier.
They retconed Paramedic into being Dr. Clark and doing all those terrible experiments to Frank Jaeger. It's stuff like that that people don't buy why they became the Patriots, you can say it happens and can use logistics to show it, but the motivations and character changes make no sense.
Supposedly they viewed the Boss so highly and wanted to continue her will but that's not reflected in MGS3 at all from what I recall. The while thing feels like a twist to connect MGS3 and Kojima hasn't really done much to make it gel after the fact.
