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Which Metal Gear plot point/twist is the most ludicrous?

Opiate

Member
So, this thread has reaffirmed my position on MGS, having not played the most recent iterations:

It's totally fine to love MGS. Enjoy it if you like it. But please, for goodness sakes, stop trying to convince me that it's mature and deep and serious and artistic. I don't like Mario platforming games either, but at least the fans of those games don't try to convince me that Mario is super deep. It's childish fun, and that's okay.
 

Dremark

Banned
So, this thread has reaffirmed my position on MGS, having not played the most recent iterations:

It's totally fine to love MGS. Enjoy it if you like it. But please, for goodness sakes, stop trying to convince me that it's mature and deep and serious and artistic. I don't like Mario platforming games either, but at least the fans of those games don't try to convince me that Mario is super deep. It's childish fun, and that's okay.

The games actually do have revelant themes in them, but that doesn't mean that the games always take themselves seriously or are 100% flawless.
 

TwoDurans

"Never said I wasn't a hypocrite."
Looking at this thread it seems the problem is that this franchise has tried to keep a single narrative going for nearly 30 years now, and they suck at retconning things that didn't make much sense the first time around. I can't think of another franchise in gaming that's been able to have a continuous story for this long.

That said, MG is still my personal GOAT for gaming franchises.
 

Pilgrimzero

Member
I had more of an issue with them basically retconning Vamp's powers to Nanomachines then I did with him having the powers or the initial explanation for it. It's basically the same thing as the liquid ocelot thing, they have something super natural then changed it to something farfetched after.

Overall though I agree with what you're saying though.

That's why Kojima is just not a good writer. He had the perfect explanation for why Liquid possessed Ocelot. His dad The Sorrow. He goes to all these lengths to show and tell what The Sorrow can do.

He also goes onto show that yes Supernatural stuff DOES exist. It explains everything.

Then he retcons the shit out of everything and goes all "nano nano nano". Why? Why shit on your own lore like that?

It's up there with Midichlorians.
 

theofficefan99

Junior Member
I was thinking about playing my first MGS game with Phantom Pain but after reading this thread I've decided to never touch the series and never take anyone who claims the writing is good seriously.
 

Dremark

Banned
That's why Kojima is just not a good writer. He had the perfect explanation for why Liquid possessed Ocelot. His dad The Sorrow. He goes to all these lengths to show and tell what The Sorrow can do.

He also goes onto show that yes Supernatural stuff DOES exist. It explains everything.

Then he retcons the shit out of everything and goes all "nano nano nano". Why? Why shit on your own lore like that?

It's up there with Midichlorians.

The reason he did that is because he tells the story he wants to in each game and doesn't sweat the details on the continuity. He had an explanation in place for Liquid Snake's arm but it didn't fit with the narrative he wanted to tell with Ocelot so he had him replace it with another arm by the time 4 came around.

I think it was a stupid explanation but it fit the narrative better than him randomly getting possessed by Liquid did.
 

Dalek

Member
Looking at this thread it seems the problem is that this franchise has tried to keep a single narrative going for nearly 30 years now, and they suck at retconning things that didn't make much sense the first time around. I can't think of another franchise in gaming that's been able to have a continuous story for this long.

That said, MG is still my personal GOAT for gaming franchises.

I've thought the same recently. I love the series, I love discussing it, and I've had so many great memories of it.

That said-I think this break with Komani might mean that Kojima can start something epic and fresh without any ties to previous continuity and anchors. I'm very excited to see what that might be. It's sad that this era is over, but I'm excited about what comes next.
 

Dremark

Banned
I've thought the same recently. I love the series, I love discussing it, and I've had so many great memories of it.

That said-I think this break with Komani might mean that Kojima can start something epic and fresh without any ties to previous continuity and anchors. I'm very excited to see what that might be. It's sad that this era is over, but I'm excited about what comes next.

Eh, the fact of the matter is he kept going back to the franchise willingly and he chose to link the games the way he did. Occasionally he was obviously pandering to fans (Liquid Snake was popular for some reason I can't understand so he had to come back for example) but for the most part he could have, and most likely did what he wanted to.

He even moved way back to the past but continued the same way.

He'll move on to something else but I doubt his style will change much, and personally I don't really have an issue with that.
 
There are so many, I'll leave it to three different ones though:

3. The fate of Eva

So let me get this straight, Eva is so obsessed with Big Boss that she is willing to throw herself on the pyre of his remains, thus burning herself to death. But she doesn't notice that it's clearly NOT Big Boss, because you know, wrong missing eye? Really? Not a huge fan of the can't live without my man trope played straight, but holy hell that was dumb.

2. The Naomi stuff, pretty much all of it. Ok, her creating the Nanomachines, and suping up Vamp, not so bad. Her having cancer, and using Nanomachines to keep herself alive, I get it. But her suicide literally made no sense. At all, and that's not getting into the BS with the FOX die. sonicmj went into that better than I could so I'll quote that post here:

Naomi tells Snake that he's a walking biological time bomb about to destroy the entire human race. But she realizes later that she's wrong and he'll be fine. She doesn't want him to kill himself. How does she solve this problem? Not by telling him, that's for sure. Instead she kills herself to atone for her horrifying sin of curing cancer. She also records a message for Snake to see after the FOXALIVE virus is uploaded that does not include this information. Then she makes plans to revive Big Boss, who has been kept alive in a coma for over a decade because reasons.

As a man of action, Big Boss knows what to do to make sure Snake lives. He has to go get The Boss's Patriot gun. He also has to go fetch Zero from whatever old age home he's being kept in. He has to take his gun and Zero to a graveyard just in time to stop Snake and deliver the good news. Then he kills an old man on life support in the late stages of dementia before Snake's eyes for entirely symbolic reasons. Finally, Big Boss dies from the FOXDIE virus that he knew Snake had, which the Patriots had implanted in Snake to kill Big Boss. Because the revival of Big Boss was apparently something they had predicted.

I feel like there must have been a better way convey this message.

in any other game, this whole chain of events would be the most absurd plot twist, in possibly the history of video games. I mean it really is that flat out absurd. It is only saved marginally for giving us the most distilled form of the Otacon crying like a little bitch scene of all time. I mean it, the first time I saw this scene I couldn't stop laughing for minutes.

Otacon's Life sucks

I think it's the "why does it always end this way!" that gives me hope that that entire scene was self parody. If so it would be brilliant.

1. Ocelot the Hero. Like others have said the whole Ocelot arm plot was stupid. It sucked then, it sucks today. I think what I find so offensive about it isn't the fact of the arm switcheroo, that is dumb, but well within the realm of MGS bad writing. No what really got me is the attempt to play up Ocelot as a hero. THe hero of the series in point of fact. Fuck that.

No really, fuck that. Ocelot is NOT anywhere near a good person, and has never been one. He's a horrible sadist, who let us not forget rapes Meryl in MGS 1, and kills her in the non-canon timeline. He gets off on torturing Snake, betrays everyone he has ever worked for, and is an overall ass. He's a great, badass villain, but no, you don't get to cast him as a hero in an info dump by Zombie Big Boss at the end of the game. It's insulting.

OTOH best plot twist in the Metal Gear Series? Right here:

Nanomachines, Son
 

BibiMaghoo

Member
So, this thread has reaffirmed my position on MGS, having not played the most recent iterations:

It's totally fine to love MGS. Enjoy it if you like it. But please, for goodness sakes, stop trying to convince me that it's mature and deep and serious and artistic. I don't like Mario platforming games either, but at least the fans of those games don't try to convince me that Mario is super deep. It's childish fun, and that's okay.

It is part both, exclusively neither. That is the truth of it.
 
That's why Kojima is just not a good writer. He had the perfect explanation for why Liquid possessed Ocelot. His dad The Sorrow. He goes to all these lengths to show and tell what The Sorrow can do.

He also goes onto show that yes Supernatural stuff DOES exist. It explains everything.

Then he retcons the shit out of everything and goes all "nano nano nano". Why? Why shit on your own lore like that?

It's up there with Midichlorians.

I'm pretty sure the idea was to quite obviously and deliberately strangle out all supernatural and paranormal elements in the series in favor of "science" in MGS4. It gives the setting much colder, "cyberpunk dystopia" feel where even Snake isn't special anymore because with nanomachines and cybernetics anyone can be a super soldier, culminating in Raiden and the B&B Corps, who are actually all just civilians who are ONLY badass because of their equipment, contrasted with FOXHOUND or the Cobras. Plus it provides a convienet excuse for why Ocelot and The Patriots can so effectively control the world.

Also, it may have also just been Kojima trying to (and failing) to self-destruct his series once again, like in MGS2.
 

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
I'm pretty sure the idea was to quite obviously and deliberately strangle out all supernatural and paranormal elements in the series in favor of "science" in MGS4. It gives the setting much colder, "cyberpunk dystopia" feel where even Snake isn't special anymore because with nanomachines and cybernetics anyone can be a super soldier, culminating in Raiden and the B&B Corps, who are actually all just civilians who are ONLY badass because of their equipment, contrasted with FOXHOUND or the Cobras. Plus it provides a convienet excuse for why Ocelot and The Patriots can so effectively control the world.

Also, it may have also just been Kojima trying to (and failing) to self-destruct his series once again, like in MGS2.

Kojima wasn't trying to self destruct the series with MGS2. He left the future of the series up in the air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z24A40S4uEw

Skip to 43:30
 

stuminus3

Member
The Metal Gear series is a ton of fun if you just embrace the nonsense as Kojima obviously does... but the Patriots being the MGS3 cast really rubbed me the wrong way. It retroactively sours a great game. I loved Zero in MGS3. I spent the entirety of MGS4 thinking I'd skipped a game or I'd gone into the theatre in the middle of a movie or something. Nope, it was just that stupid.
 
Ocelot
not actually being controlled by Liquid, he fucking hypnotized himself to think he was Liquid? wtf?

That plot twist I never truly grasped (the Liquid as Ocelot's hand thing) and here's why:

In MGS4 they reveal that Liquid never seized control of Ocelot through his severed hand. That it was all a premeditated ruse from Ocelot to deceive everyone and that he underwent a lot of shock therapy to sort of infuse Liquid's personality into his to make it appear as real as possible. And that's why Ocelot didn't speak with Liquid's voice in MGS4.

Ok. I can buy that (as far as the crazy MGS universe goes) but here's the part I never got: why on earth did Ocelot spoke with Liquid's voice near the end of MGS2 then? That part never made any sense! That was why I went into MGS4 expecting "Liquid Ocelot" to speak only in Liquid's voice since he was supposed to have been taken completely over by Snake's brother.

TL;DR What's the deal there? Why Liquid's voice through Ocelot in MGS2 and then no Liquid voice at all in MGS4? Is that a plot hole or did I miss the explanation?
 

funkypie

Banned
This thread makes me laugh. As much as I love mgs, the story and convoluted nonsense is utterly garbage. Maybe I loved it growing up but looking back it is stupid trash that ruins everything good that was built previously.

Mgs1 is a masterpiece, everything from the setting, the characters and the world it builds. Kojima could have made so many great stories from that, but went with mgs2 'cos themes' then realised he wanted to make more games so had to retcon and convolute.

If mgs4 all that needed to be done was destroy the ais why didn't hypnotised liquid (lol) just say to snake I'm gonna blow the ai up in space with a nuke lol. Nah can't do that 'cos nukes r bad' so many needlessly die in mgs4 for no reason.
 
I thoroughly enjoyed every ridiculous twist, but the 10+ year remains of Rex being able to take on and beat Ray after a firmware update was where my suspension of disbelief hit its limit.

I also had no problem with Raiden's foot-stab stopping the nuclear sub minutes later.
 

wiibomb

Member
oh for fucks sake... another MGS hate thread... gaf has been in a streak now that MGSV is closing to release

EDIT: I was coming to read and share ending things... and I see how the conversation has totally derailed
 
That plot twist I never truly grasped (the Liquid as Ocelot's hand thing) and here's why:

In MGS4 they reveal that Liquid never seized control of Ocelot through his severed hand. That it was all a premeditated ruse from Ocelot to deceive everyone and that he underwent a lot of shock therapy to sort of infuse Liquid's personality into his to make it appear as real as possible. And that's why Ocelot didn't speak with Liquid's voice in MGS4.

Ok. I can buy that (as far as the crazy MGS universe goes) but here's the part I never got: why on earth did Ocelot spoke with Liquid's voice near the end of MGS2 then? That part never made any sense! That was why I went into MGS4 expecting "Liquid Ocelot" to speak only in Liquid's voice since he was supposed to have been taken completely over by Snake's brother.

TL;DR What's the deal there? Why Liquid's voice through Ocelot in MGS2 and then no Liquid voice at all in MGS4? Is that a plot hole or did I miss the explanation?

I think that's just part of the retcon. I don't believe Ocelot was supposed to be "faking" during MGS2; as far as Kojima was concerned he was almost certainly being possessed by Liquid back then. MGS4 changed things up and so Liquid's voice was excised. (I'm not so sure the MGS database explanation that Ocelot was actually possessed in MGS2 and then faked it for MGS4 is something that the game's writers even had in mind, honestly. But who knows.)

And Ocelot's voice actor never changed in Japanese MGS2.

It sounds like he did. Maybe I'm mistaken though.
 
It sounds like he did. Maybe I'm mistaken though.

No, you're not, he does switch voices. I don't know where he got the idea that he doesn't.

I always assumed the reason why they didn't go with Liquid's english VA for MGS4 is because his voice doesn't fit old Ocelot's appearence AT ALL. It's fine in MGS2, when you hear his voice in short bursts to show that he's possessed, and maybe it would've been fine for us too, if we heard Liquid's voice throughout MGS4, but they were probably concerned about how newcomers would react to that.

It wasn't such a problem in the Japanese version because...well, old Ocelot's VA was dead anyway, but also, while Japanese Ocelot and Japanese Liquid do sound noticably different, Liquid had more of a rough and deep voice to begin with. It just doesn't seem out-of-place on the old dude.
 
It's gotta be either -

Everything to do with the Ocelot/Liquid arm shenanigans. Holy shit what a clusterfuck of a plotline

Big Boss coming back at the end of MGS4 to die about 15 minutes later. Don't even get me started.

Alternatively the retconning of things into "lol nanomachines" is equally stupid. Vulcan Raven's pseudo-mysticism or Psycho Mantis' psychokinetic powers or Decoy Octopus' completely unshown perfect ability of mimicry wasn't enough but water running vampires is all of the sudden in the need of explanation? This was after someone who could raise the fucking dead in MGS3.

The stuff with The Boss and Paz in PW is pretty dumb though.
 
Alternatively the retconning of things into "lol nanomachines" is equally stupid. Vulcan Raven's pseudo-mysticism or Psycho Mantis' psychokinetic powers or Decoy Octopus' completely unshown perfect ability of mimicry wasn't enough but water running vampires is all of the sudden in the need of explanation? This was after someone who could raise the fucking dead in MGS3.

The thing is, a lot of fans really believed this back then. "What is a vampire doing in my realistic Metal Gear game?". Until MGS4, Vamp specifically was one of the biggest shark-jumping moments for fans, while the FOXHOUND members were fine for some reason.

A lot of MGS4 was Kojima giving fans exactly what they wanted, but without much thought put behind it, just going through the motions. "Uh...well, okay, he's not a supernatural Vampire then."

And really, what kind of answer were people expecting when they asked for an explanation for his powers? It's either lol science, or lol supernatural, not much more you can do with that.
 
Vamp is really, really ridiculous but not anymore ridiculous then Psycho Mantis or The Sorrow. I would prefer supernatural to a catch-all explanation. I think Fortune is probably more ridiculous then Vamp. I just beat MGS2 about 20 minutes ago on a replay and I was still WTF at that explanation

Someone said it earlier but I think setting a game after MGS2 was a mistake in the first place, even with the cliffhanger of "THE PATRIOTS ALL DIED 100 YEARS AGO"
 

Bergerac

Member
Yeah regardless of Liquid Ocelot being fucking out there, the Big Boss returns is a more egregious twist. Game should've ended with Snake blowing his brains out. Fuck happiness. LOL
 
I love how in MGS2, Liquid is able to possess Ocelot via his arm (which was ridiculous), then MGS3 provides a sort of explanation of why that could happen (Ocelot's father was a powerful spirit medium and actual ghost) which made it at least a little better, then in Big Boss's speech at the end of 4 he basically says "you can't possess someone through an arm that's fucking dumb, come on."

Also how the fuck does one hypnotize oneself? Stand in front of a mirror and swing a watch?
 
I thoroughly enjoyed every ridiculous twist, but the 10+ year remains of Rex being able to take on and beat Ray after a firmware update was where my suspension of disbelief hit its limit.

I also had no problem with Raiden's foot-stab stopping the nuclear sub minutes later.
This is MGS4 right? When was the Ray in the game built though? Original Ray model is just 4 years younger than Rex I thought. In MGS2 they say Shadow Moses was only 4 years ago.

I love all the crazy plot points/twists. Don't really care if they make sense as long as they are given an explanation, however ridiculous. MGS is like a campy sci-fi TV show that takes itself just serious enough to be interesting but loose enough to where literally anything can happen.
 

Daingurse

Member
I thoroughly enjoyed every ridiculous twist, but the 10+ year remains of Rex being able to take on and beat Ray after a firmware update was where my suspension of disbelief hit its limit.

I also had no problem with Raiden's foot-stab stopping the nuclear sub minutes later.

Ray was specifically a Metal Gear killer too right? lol
 
So, this thread has reaffirmed my position on MGS, having not played the most recent iterations:

It's totally fine to love MGS. Enjoy it if you like it. But please, for goodness sakes, stop trying to convince me that it's mature and deep and serious and artistic. I don't like Mario platforming games either, but at least the fans of those games don't try to convince me that Mario is super deep. It's childish fun, and that's okay.

MGS2 has absolutely a very deep and complex meta narrative. The others? Not really. But it's certainly artistic. Art can be silly and over the top. Kojima is more like tarrantino than malick, but i wouldn't say one is less artistic than the other.
 
It was specifically made to destroy all the Rex knockoffs. I think that comes up in the speech the marine commandant gives at the end of the tanker chapter.

Correct, it was developed as a countermeasure to all the Rex knockoffs popping up all over the world. It didn't even have nuclear launch capability.
 

RELIGHT

Banned
So, this thread has reaffirmed my position on MGS, having not played the most recent iterations:

It's totally fine to love MGS. Enjoy it if you like it. But please, for goodness sakes, stop trying to convince me that it's mature and deep and serious and artistic. I don't like Mario platforming games either, but at least the fans of those games don't try to convince me that Mario is super deep. It's childish fun, and that's okay.

Don't confuse classic Japanese filmic madness and humor with childishness. A lot of those points are intentional to add levity in serious situations.
 

AwShucks

Member
As much as I love it in MGS2, Liquid's arm is just absurd. It gets worse in MGS4 I feel. Ocelot and Liquid are both such great characters that I feel that Kojima had to think of SOMETHING to keep them both in the story.
 
It sounds like he did. Maybe I'm mistaken though.

Huh! For some reason after Ocelot's JP voice actor died and Liquid's was forced to take over for MGS4, I remember reading quite a lot that Ocelot's voice actor didn't change in JP MGS2, just his manner of speaking, and that using Cam Clarke's actual voice was intended as a concession to Westerners who might not get it otherwise. Guess that was a myth caused by either mixing up the MGS4 situation or somebody who couldn't tell the difference between two Japanese speakers. I stand corrected!
 

Z..

Member
So, this thread has reaffirmed my position on MGS, having not played the most recent iterations:

It's totally fine to love MGS. Enjoy it if you like it. But please, for goodness sakes, stop trying to convince me that it's mature and deep and serious and artistic. I don't like Mario platforming games either, but at least the fans of those games don't try to convince me that Mario is super deep. It's childish fun, and that's okay.

It's equally ludicrous and deep.

You say most recent, therefore I assume you played MGS2. Ludicrous? Most definitely. But ever so poignant...
 
So, this thread has reaffirmed my position on MGS, having not played the most recent iterations:

It's totally fine to love MGS. Enjoy it if you like it. But please, for goodness sakes, stop trying to convince me that it's mature and deep and serious and artistic. I don't like Mario platforming games either, but at least the fans of those games don't try to convince me that Mario is super deep. It's childish fun, and that's okay.
Have you never found a meaningful message in a comical movie or kids movie? Have you never felt an emotion other than joy in a comedy or whimsy in a kids movie?

Fun and humor can exist alongside deep and serious. Art doesn't have to have an unwavering monotone delivery or message.
 

doofy102

Member
So, this thread has reaffirmed my position on MGS, having not played the most recent iterations:

It's totally fine to love MGS. Enjoy it if you like it. But please, for goodness sakes, stop trying to convince me that it's mature and deep and serious and artistic. I don't like Mario platforming games either, but at least the fans of those games don't try to convince me that Mario is super deep. It's childish fun, and that's okay.

It's less about Kojima's plot-construction or philosophy being deep and more about Kojima's heart being deep.

I read a lot of serious, intelligent, and artistic literature written by writers who are more talented and clever than Kojima, but it's clear to me that Kojima cares more and feels more than a lot of them. This gives anything Kojima has to say a certain authority to it, that's earned purely because you know it comes from a beautiful soul.
 
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