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imthemaid · Sep 28, 2009

brain_stew said:
I'm not judging this off my own output as the VC is terrible for flat panel gaming, but from the evidence I've seen posted. There is blurring going on in the SNES emulator, though the Genesis output is indeed pixel perfect.

If you have the time and inclination, try hooking your wii up along with the original hardware, using the same type of connection. You won't see any blurring. Compare it to what you see while running some of the homebrew emulators through the wii, or a PC. It's a clear difference, you won't have to squint. TG16 on the VC is an exception. It's blurry just like homebrew.

Durante · Sep 28, 2009

imthemaid said:
SNES emulation on VC is as visually crisp as the real hardware, while zsnes and snes9x are both a blurry mess.

Wait, you are running ZSNES on a PC right? Set it to native output resolution and fullscreen, and output via an analog output on your GPU in that custom resolution (configured via the driver). Unless your GPU or configuration are bad it will produce the same result as an SNES. (minus any errors induced by inferior signal transmission)

I have no idea what you're going on about wrt. input lag and tearing. I've never seen either and (to my chagrin) I'm incredibly good at spotting both. Again, are you judging this on an adequate PC that is correctly configured?

jett · Sep 28, 2009

imthemaid said:
SNES emulation on VC is as visually crisp as the real hardware, while zsnes and snes9x are both a blurry mess. What kind of TV do you use for your classic gaming?

:lol What the hell are you talking about?

imthemaid · Sep 28, 2009

Durante said:
Wait, you are running ZSNES on a PC right? Set it to native output resolution and fullscreen, and output via an analog output on your GPU in that custom resolution (configured via the driver). Unless your GPU or configuration are bad it will produce the same result as an SNES. (minus any errors induced by inferior signal transmission)

I have no idea what you're going on about wrt. input lag and tearing. I've never seen either and (to my chagrin) I'm incredibly good at spotting both. Again, are you judging this on an adequate PC that is correctly configured?

I'm judging it based on every PC I've owned over the years, and a lot of friends' PCs. At one point when I was really into emulation I became obsessed with trying to get rid of tearing without introducing even more input lag than there already is. I even made my own NES controller soldered onto a printer port lead to avoid USB.

I don't know why you would purposely ever want to see tearing. It almost gave me the nerdiest mental breakdown imaginable.

imthemaid · Sep 28, 2009

jett said:
:lol What the hell are you talking about?

Blur

Durante · Sep 28, 2009

imthemaid said:
I'm judging it based on every PC I've owned over the years, and a lot of friends' PCs.

So apparently you just suck at setting it up. (And/or setting up your graphics card)

imthemaid said:
I don't know why you would purposely ever want to see tearing.

Huh? I'm saying I've never seen tearing in emulators even though I am very good at spotting it. Not that I like seeing it.

MidnightRider · Sep 28, 2009

Roxas said:

My exact response.

Good job! My face was in this way.

imthemaid · Sep 28, 2009

Durante said:
So apparently you just suck at setting it up. (And/or setting up your graphics card)

It's possible, or you could be wrong and/or haven't tested both forms of emulation side-by-side and/or you're not noticing flaws.

durante said:
Huh? I'm saying I've never seen tearing in emulators even though I am very good at spotting it. Not that I like seeing it.

Oh, to your chagrin you're good at spotting both. I misread that

DDayton · Sep 29, 2009

Where are all these magical "flaws" with VC emulation?

The only things "missing" are stupidly high numbers of save states and ghastly graphic filters. They are perfect emulations of SNES and NES games.

Azure Dream · Sep 29, 2009

I don't have a problem with the emulation, personally. It's the edits. I miss the little things like that flicker from the dark to the sky at the end of Super Mario Bros. 3 stages, some of the text changes they've made for copyright issues, things like that.

DDayton · Sep 29, 2009

Kulock said:
I don't have a problem with the emulation, personally. It's the edits. I miss the little things like that flicker from the dark to the sky at the end of Super Mario Bros. 3 stages, some of the text changes they've made for copyright issues, things like that.

?

Firestorm · Sep 29, 2009

imthemaid said:
SNES emulation on VC is as visually crisp as the real hardware, while zsnes and snes9x are both a blurry mess. What kind of TV do you use for your classic gaming?

The hell. Are you stretching out the window to your lcd monitor's native resolution or something? If you run a 256x224 or whatever native resolution game in 1920x1080 it will look pretty blurry.

imthemaid · Sep 29, 2009

Firestorm said:
The hell. Are you stretching out the window to your lcd monitor's native resolution or something? If you run a 256x224 or whatever native resolution game in 1920x1080 it will look pretty blurry.

Outputting to a 480i CRT, and an EDTV LCD.

DavidDayton said:
Where are all these magical "flaws" with VC emulation?

The only things "missing" are stupidly high numbers of save states and ghastly graphic filters. They are perfect emulations of SNES and NES games.

Yes.

Nuclear Muffin · Sep 29, 2009

VC emulation for NES & SNES is perfect, there is a slight blur implimented in order to replicate the quasi anti alasing that you get from a CRT (Since the games were designed to be played on such displays, they were not visually designed to be completely sans filters. Hence adding a very slight blur is actually a more accurate way of preserving the original image on a modern TV)

Also, AFAIK Nintendo's VC emulator is the only one to have accurately emulated Kirby Dream Land 3's psuedo high resolution mode for its transparancy effects (Just to sight one example)

MD emulation is also spot on with it being the only commercial emulator to emulate the Mega Drive sound chip accurately. It also emulates without any filters, which matches the original MD's video output, which was crisper than the NES and SNES.

The TG16 emulator is not as accurate since is it is too blurry for the older VC games (They haven't been updated with the newer TG emulator, which was used from Ys 1& 2 onwards and runs without filters)

So far NeoGeo (What little of them has been released anyway :lol) is also completely accurate, as is the Master System.

N64 emulation is technically not done accurately since it uses HLE, but this is a much better choice for this console because the games look and run much better than on the original machine! (Not to mention that the GCN controler is way better than the original N64 one with its now broken analog sticks

) For all intents and purposes, the emulation is graphically and audibly accurate (Apart from some extremely minor audio skips at a few loading points in some games)

The only VC emulator which isn't really 100% accurate is the C64 emulator, as some games have been reported to contain a number of emulation glitches (At least in Europe, so far I don't think any have been reported in the US versions)

The reason why VC emulation can be 100% accurate is because they have seperate emulators for each game, so they can tailor the base emulator to work perfectly with that one single game. PC emulators will never be 100% accurate because they are designed to run every game in one emulator. Unfortunately, Backbone love to take the lazy route and just slap the ROMs in a single base emulator for all of their releases, that isn't tailored to the games they are using with it.

It also helps that Nintendo just happen to know how their own hardware works!

imthemaid · Sep 29, 2009

Nuclear Muffin said:
VC emulation for NES & SNES is perfect, there is a slight blur implimented in order to replicate the quasi anti alasing that you get from a CRT (Since the games were designed to be played on such displays, they were not visually designed to be completely sans filters. Hence adding a very slight blur is actually a more accurate way of preserving the original image on a modern TV)

What are you basing that on? Your own observations, or another source?

Nuclear Muffin · Sep 29, 2009

imthemaid said:
What are you basing that on? Your own observations, or another source?

I saw a comparison here on Neogaf a while back, it compared an orginal SNES, outputting in RGB Scart, with an unfiltered PC emulator and the VC version running in 480p.

I can't find it now unfortunately but the VC version wasn't completely pixel sharp, it has an extremely subtle filter that smooths the edges out ever so slightly and ended up looking much closer to the RGB enabled SNES than the PC emulator (Though the VC version was slightly sharper since it ran in 480p compared to the SNES' 480i)

The VC emulation is 100% spot on when run through composite (As the Wii switches to a true 240i output when using a composite cable, the two images are completely indistingushable!)

They did a Mega Drive comparison as well and all three were more or less the same sharpness (Taking into account the fact that an RGB enabled MD can only run in 480i)

DDayton · Sep 29, 2009

Nuclear Muffin said:
I saw a comparison here on Neogaf a while back, it compared an orginal SNES, outputting in RGB Scart, with an unfiltered PC emulator and the VC version running in 480p.

I can't find it now unfortunately but the VC version wasn't completely pixel sharp, it has an extremely subtle filter that smooths the edges out ever so slightly and ended up looking much closer to the RGB enabled SNES than the PC emulator (Though the VC version was slightly sharper since it ran in 480p compared to the SNES' 480i)

The VC emulation is 100% spot on when run through composite (As the Wii switches to a true 240i output when using a composite cable, the two images are completely indistingusable!)

There may be a few flaws with this line of thought.

1) The Wii outputs the same video mode whether you are using composite or component cables, UNLESS you enable progressive scan -- which is only available with component cables.
* I'm not sure what happens with progressive scan and SNES/NES games.

2) You're saying that the VC and RGB SNES look the same, unlike the pixel-clarity on the PC.
In other words, the SNES games look the same when displayed on a TV.
This would seem to imply the VC is outputting the same basic signal as the SNES, right?

Nuclear Muffin · Sep 29, 2009

DavidDayton said:
There may be a few flaws with this line of thought.

1) The Wii outputs the same video mode whether you are using composite or component cables, UNLESS you enable progressive scan -- which is only available with component cables.
* I'm not sure what happens with progressive scan and SNES/NES games.

2) You're saying that the VC and RGB SNES look the same, unlike the pixel-clarity on the PC.
In other words, the SNES games look the same when displayed on a TV.
This would seem to imply the VC is outputting the same basic signal as the SNES, right?

If you were to run a Wii with an RGB Scart cable and compare the two then yes, I would assume that they are the same since it would run in 240p. When progressive scan is enabled, the games are run in 480p (I think it just does pixel doubling to scale the image so it ends up looking the same) but then a slight filter is applied to the image, to give it that bit of softness that you would normally get from running it on a CRT, the image isn't completely pixel sharp (which makes sense since the games weren't designed for such sharpness, they were designed to benefit from that original CRT anti aliasing)

Unfortunately I don't have an RGB enabled NTSC SNES to compare with my NTSC Wii but I can at least see that the 240p output through composite is 100% identical to an original NTSC SNES through composite. Aside from the slight differences in the way that the Wii's component cable and the SNES RGB cable work, I would imagine that the two images would be identical as well.

FoxSpirit · Sep 29, 2009

I'll just add this: so far there has been not a single filter for emulators which actually emulates the way the games looked on an actual CRT.
It's not simply "slightly blurred", there was more to it.

Though someone did something for Atari emu that's downright brilliant:
http://www.bogost.com/games/a_television_simulator.shtml

If we get that for other emulators with adjustable parameters it will be glorious.

vazel · Sep 29, 2009

FoxSpirit said:
I'll just add this: so far there has been not a single filter for emulators which actually emulates the way the games looked on an actual CRT.
It's not simply "slightly blurred", there was more to it.

Though someone did something for Atari emu that's downright brilliant:
http://www.bogost.com/games/a_television_simulator.shtml

If we get that for other emulators with adjustable parameters it will be glorious.

Nestopia has an NTSC filter. You're still missing convergence issues and overscan. I think the original NES added black bars for overscan.

imthemaid · Sep 29, 2009

He said not simply blurred.

vazel · Sep 29, 2009

imthemaid said:
He said not simply blurred.

That isn't simply blurred it affects the colors. Pay attention look at Darkwing and the text.

Here's another pic.

DDayton · Sep 29, 2009

The problem I have with all these "filters", regardless of their intent, is they all manage to make the picture quality lousy.

What's more confusing is the folks who insist the games originally looked like that. Did everyone OTHER than me have both horrible televisions and/or exclusively use RF connections all those years? I always had pixel-perfect displays on my classic games.

Edit: Those Darkwing and Chip & Dale pictures puzzle me. I never had any game that blurry nor "bleeding" that much on any television I've ever used.

vazel · Sep 29, 2009

DavidDayton said:
The problem I have with all these "filters", regardless of their intent, is they all manage to make the picture quality lousy.

What's more confusing is the folks who insist the games originally looked like that. Did everyone OTHER than me have both horrible televisions and/or exclusively use RF connections all those years? I always had pixel-perfect displays on my classic games.

Edit: Those Darkwing and Chip & Dale pictures puzzle me. I never had any game that blurry nor "bleeding" that much on any television I've ever used.

Those pics look worse because you have a sharper frame of reference of seeing it on your PC screen. They don't look that bad natively on a SD CRT.

Nuclear Muffin · Sep 29, 2009

vazel said:
Those pics look worse because you have a sharper frame of reference of seeing it on your PC screen. They don't look that bad natively on a SD CRT.

He's right, when you play it on a TV using composite, its not as noticable since your eyes get used to the poor image quality.

There's a reason why so many of us can't wait to get our favourite games on the VC, the games look so much easier on the eyes :lol (Of course there are other reasons as well, especially with N64 games!)

imthemaid · Sep 29, 2009

Retro games are never going to look the same on an LCD as they do on an interlaced CRT, but an old unscaled game on a smaller LCD--or just unstretched on a larger screen--looks great in its own right. Adding those CRT/blur/interlace filters to try to emulate real interlacing is such a bad idea. It's kind of like putting wood-panneling on a BMW, except not awesome.

DDayton · Sep 29, 2009

vazel said:
Those pics look worse because you have a sharper frame of reference of seeing it on your PC screen. They don't look that bad natively on a SD CRT.

Perhaps, except:

1) I've yet to see a filter on a PC emulator which makes it "look like" a TV.
2) I'm still unsure as to why VC-style "pixel perfect" emulations "don't look like the originals". They do for me.

I don't necessarily begrudge folks filters if they want them; I'm just saying that every example of the "more true to life" filters I've seen looks WORSE than games run on the original system.

That, or everyone other than me used RF cables.

vazel · Sep 29, 2009

DavidDayton said:
That, or everyone other than me used RF cables.

Virtually everyone, yes. Back then people didn't care as much for PQ.

Templar Wizard · Sep 29, 2009

VideoMan said:
I've tried it also and I agree. One of the most impressive looking games I've seen in 3D.

I took some screenshots in red/blue anaglyph mode if anyone has a pair of glasses and wants to see.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/32634936@N05/sets/72157622201239681/

Best way to view them is in the slideshow.

what version are you using and what settings do you have?
your screens look about 100x better than what i have

also, have you tried 3d vision with anything else?

imthemaid · Sep 29, 2009

vazel said:
Those pics look worse because you have a sharper frame of reference of seeing it on your PC screen. They don't look that bad natively on a SD CRT.

Why would you want to pre-blur the image if you're going to be looking at it on an SD CRT?

Nuclear Muffin · Sep 29, 2009

DavidDayton said:
Perhaps, except:

1) I've yet to see a filter on a PC emulator which makes it "look like" a TV.
2) I'm still unsure as to why VC-style "pixel perfect" emulations "don't look like the originals". They do for me.

I don't necessarily begrudge folks filters if they want them; I'm just saying that every example of the "more true to life" filter I've seen looks WORSE than games run on the original system.

That, or everyone other than me used RF cables.

No, you're right, the VC emulation is just like the originals. VC NES and SNES emulation isn't completely pin sharp, that is why it does look exactly like the originals! (tHe games have a very very subtle filter over 480p component and no filter over 240p composite/component/scart/svideo)

PC emulation is too sharp without any filters but most filters on the PC look crap.

DDayton · Sep 29, 2009

Nuclear Muffin said:
No, you're right, the VC emulation is just like the originals. VC NES and SNES emulation isn't completely pin sharp, that is why it does look exactly like the originals!

...except that, as far as I can tell, VC games on my television are "pin sharp."

Then again, I use a real TV... no HD/plasma/LCD setup. Perhaps that's it.

vazel · Sep 29, 2009

imthemaid said:
Why would you want to pre-blur the image if you're going to be looking at it on an SD CRT?

??? I would be looking at that image on my plasma. The filter is to make them look as close as possible to how it did natively on SD CRT through rf/composite.

Not that I actually use those filters. The point of emulation to me is to get better quality/performance than the real thing.

imthemaid · Sep 29, 2009

vazel said:
Those pics look worse because you have a sharper frame of reference of seeing it on your PC screen. They don't look that bad natively on a SD CRT.

^

Nuclear Muffin · Sep 29, 2009

DavidDayton said:
...except that, as far as I can tell, VC games on my television are "pin sharp."

Then again, I use a real TV... no HD/plasma/LCD setup. Perhaps that's it.

So are you using component cables at 480p? If you are not, then there is no filtering. If you are, then the game would still look as sharp as the original since 480p images are sharper than 480i ones anyway. The filtering counteracts the extra sharpness gained from the higher vertical resolution of 480p (While leaving you with the benefits of progressive output such as better colour reproduction and the lack of interlacing and flickering)

vazel · Sep 29, 2009

imthemaid said:
^

I was talking how the real thing looked.

DDayton · Sep 29, 2009

Nuclear Muffin said:
So are you using component cables at 480p? If you are not, then there is no filtering. If you are, then the game would still look as sharp as the original since 480p images are sharper than 480i ones anyway. The filtering counteracts the extra sharpness gained from the higher vertical resolution of 480p (While leaving you with the benefits of progressive output such as better colour reproduction and the lack of interlacing and flickering)

I'm using component at 480i.

Do we have evidence/proof/whatever of the Wii 480p "filtering"? Given that 480p would only double the vertical resolution, I'm a tad confused as to exactly what "filtering" is supposed to be in place here, other than (perhaps) doubling the vertical resolution, which wouldn't exactly seem like "filtering".

imthemaid · Sep 29, 2009

Nevermind.

Nuclear Muffin · Sep 29, 2009

DavidDayton said:
I'm using component at 480i.

Do we have evidence/proof/whatever of the Wii 480p "filtering"? Given that 480p would only double the vertical resolution, I'm a tad confused as to exactly what "filtering" is supposed to be in place here, other than (perhaps) doubling the vertical resolution, which wouldn't exactly seem like "filtering".

Sadly, I can't find that old comparison any more but all you have to do is look at any PC emulated screenshot of a SNES game that runs without any filters. You'll notice that it's much sharper than how a SNES game should look. VC games don't have that super sharp "blocky" look and instead, look like how a SNES game should when running on a CRT.

All CRTs have a slight blur on their images that give a slight anti aliasing effect, LCDs do not feature this kind of blur, so LCD images are much sharper. However, SNES games were designed with that CRT blur in mind so PC emulation on an LCD ends up looking sharper than the games were originally designed to look.

With your setup, a VC SNES game would look identical to how a real SNES game would look when output through RGB Scart. Without any filtering over 480p, SNES games would look too sharp when run on an LCD so they have some slight filtering to make it look like how it does on your CRT (Without the interlacing or flickering that you get from 480i images though

)

DDayton · Sep 29, 2009

Nuclear Muffin said:
Sadly, I can't find that old comparison any more but all you have to do is look at any PC emulated screenshot of a SNES game that runs without any filters. You'll notice that it's much sharper than how a SNES game should look. VC games don't have that super sharp "blocky" look and instead, look like how a SNES game should when running on a CRT.

Once again, the games HAVE the "blocky look" when I play them. They always have.

Perhaps I just have better SD TVs.

Datschge · Sep 29, 2009

Can someone post more HD screens of Nintendo games please? The off-topic never ending filter talk here bores me...

Jonny The Pie King · Sep 29, 2009

So...Killer7 in 1080p is just the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life. I am now interested in this :lol

I figure a Q6600 at 3.4Ghz and a GTX 260 should be enough to play it, but how exactly does this work? Just put in my GCN discs and run the emulator like the PS2 one? What controllers are you guys using? 360?

I MUST play Killer7 in HD. (and since I have a bluetooth adapter I might go ahead and try out No More Heroes as well. That game ran pretty poorly on the Wii though, so...yeah :lol )

rbenchley · Sep 29, 2009

Jonny The Pie King said:
I figure a Q6600 at 3.4Ghz and a GTX 260 should be enough to play it, but how exactly does this work? Just put in my GCN discs and run the emulator like the PS2 one? What controllers are you guys using? 360?

GameCube games will not work in a standard DVD drive. Easiest method is to use Wii Disc Dumper to rip your GCN games to an image file on an SD card and then transfer it to your computer via a SD card reader. On my setup I use a wired 360 controller and it works very well.

plagiarize · Oct 2, 2009

Dead Space: Extraction

Runs about 50% the speed it should on my Quad Core Q6850

character body textures are a bit low res. in level lighting is prebaked... but it still looks bloody gorgeous at times and while not as nice as Dead Space did running on the PC, it's a fair approximation.

the first shot has a mess up overlay cause i hadn't found the right setting yet, so the glow effects are really broken.

Also, you'll need a real Wii remote in order to play, cause you've got to be able to turn the wiiremote sideways to use your alt fire to get past certain segments.

these shots have been downscaled a tad because Vulomedia is STILL down

edit: here's a full res shot on la.gg

blackMamba1187 · Oct 2, 2009

Those Dead Space pics look pretty awesome

whitehawk · Oct 2, 2009

Damn, I sort of want to get a new computer just so I can play gamecube games in 1080p, widescreen and with AA.

Hero of Legend · Oct 2, 2009

Those Extraction shots are amazing!

Does the actual game run in 30 or 60 frames?

Also, I've been really looking into getting a reciever to play my Wii in 1080p, and I can afford it soon enough, for a $500 or even $600 reciever, how much better will Wii games look?

Any particular recievers that give the best quality picture?

Nabs · Oct 2, 2009

damn. i need my new comp now

elektrixx · Oct 2, 2009

That looks great. Looks quite similar to the other game.

plagiarize · Oct 2, 2009

using the DX9 plugin gives you something much more playable for Dead Space Extraction I'm happy to say.

seems to be missing an effect or two, but nothing major:

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