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Microsoft unifying PC/XB1 platforms, Phil implies Xbox moving to incremental upgrades

Markoman

Member
You are completely and utterly misinterpreting me. I'm saying sony WILL react, perhaps even this gen, because if they don't even if they don't lose this gen they will lose in a X number of generations that might very well be larger than 1.

All I'm saying is no brand power will compensate for the fact that if you start over every few years and your competitor don't eventually that competitor will surpass you, and so they will most certainly react.

OK, sorry man. Let's agree on this one: If MS succeeds with this strategy by taking some of PS4's shares, Sony will/has to react. Period.

Do I give MS credit for beeing innovative or bold with this move? Absolutely not. This comes down to subjective interpretation.
We had this topic in so many threads before and I still stand by my point: MS right now is the one who is forced to react. The gap between PS4 vs. One sales widens and Nintendo is about to release a new console that could take a good piece of the share-pie.

At the start of this thread I was saying: 'Ok, no more Xbox for me and I will go PC in that scenario' Now, if Playstation goes the same route, even better, because chances increase that they will do a PC service, too. For me as a customer, this is the ideal scenario: I will spent >1000$ on a PC and leave consoles behind.
 

Rodelero

Member
I guess the idea is, it's not closed-box dev. It's UWA dev. The various XBox flavours just being UWA devices. Like iOS development.

Indeed iOS development seems like the most similar thing to what Microsoft are proposing. In that case, I don't think it bodes all that well. Of course it is relatively easy to tune games to a handful of different hardware specs, but it becomes very unlikely that any particular game is tuned perfectly for any device level, let alone all of them at once.

Look at iOS games that are on the higher end technically, and you'll immediately see that the newer games won't support iPhones from more than a couple of generations ago, and that the quality at the lower end of supported devices is sacrificed massively.
 

MilkyJoe

Member
Then honestly, I think the topic kinda breaks down at that point. You're essentially saying there simply can't be an upgraded Xbox One at all, not simply the pros and cons of having one. You're saying that it would have to be an entirely new console, with potential BC being emulated... which goes against anything being suggested of discussed in this thread.

I'm also a dev, not within gaming, and primarily for PC desktop applications, so I don't have a whole lot of experience with closed environments either. However, I think the suggestion that any changes severs the ability for the new hardware to run the previous hardware's code natively makes little sense tbh. This to me would seem to depend heavily on just how specialised the code itself is towards the hardware running it.. which in most modern cases shouldn't be all that specialised at all. You can see stuff like this on mobile platforms for example where an iPhone 5 (or an iPad 3 or whatever) has a completely different generation of chop compared to that of the iPhone 4, but nearly all apps will run natively on the new device immediately, with the caveat of it not making any use of any new advancements (such as screen real estate). It all pretty much depends on how much of the implementation is abstracted away from the platform's core internals, and then if the edge cases can then be predicted and accounted for in the new device.

I think if we're going to assume this scenario happens in any fashion, we should assume that MS has already accounted for how previous Xbox One game will run (and I don't think that software emulation is a realistic assumption), and so the idea that a developer would have to explicitly target two different platforms to in order to ship a game on both the XB1 and a potential XB1.5 doesn't really seem worth discussing. Either MS knows something neither of us do... or it simply can't happen at all, and the question becomes why Phil would say anything to suggest it might (because throwing the idea out there is certainly not going to move more XBOs are they are).


Agreed with you you entirely here
 
Then honestly, I think the topic kinda breaks down at that point. You're essentially saying there simply can't be an upgraded Xbox One at all, not simply the pros and cons of having one. You're saying that it would have to be an entirely new console, with potential BC being emulated... which goes against anything being suggested of discussed in this thread.

I'm also a dev, not within gaming, and primarily for PC desktop applications, so I don't have a whole lot of experience with closed environments either. However, I think the suggestion that any changes severs the ability for the new hardware to run the previous hardware's code natively makes little sense tbh. This to me would seem to depend heavily on just how specialised the code itself is towards the hardware running it.. which in most modern cases shouldn't be all that specialised at all. You can see stuff like this on mobile platforms for example where an iPhone 5 (or an iPad 3 or whatever) has a completely different generation of chop compared to that of the iPhone 4, but nearly all apps will run natively on the new device immediately, with the caveat of it not making any use of any new advancements (such as screen real estate). It all pretty much depends on how much of the implementation is abstracted away from the platform's core internals, and then if the edge cases can then be predicted and accounted for in the new device.

I think if we're going to assume this scenario happens in any fashion, we should assume that MS has already accounted for how previous Xbox One game will run (and I don't think that software emulation is a realistic assumption), and so the idea that a developer would have to explicitly target two different platforms to in order to ship a game on both the XB1 and a potential XB1.5 doesn't really seem worth discussing. Either MS knows something neither of us do... or it simply can't happen at all, and the question becomes why Phil would say anything to suggest it might (because throwing the idea out there is certainly not going to move more XBOs are they are).

The reason why its so different for most apps targeted towards mobile specs, and a modern triple-A game, is because of how much more dependent games are on the hardware that they run on. Apps are written specifically to be less-hardware dependent, so that they can be used on as many mobile platforms & digital environments as possible. Games aren't written this way.

Make no mistake, there will be some games that will absolutely be developed & able to run in a way similar to most mobile apps that would work in the sort of environment some on here think this would be. But there is a LARGE difference in a code base, and how devs approach their engines & what is required of them when developing something like Angry Birds, Candy Crush, or Clash of Clans, as opposed to traditional console games like Assassin's Creed or Call of Duty.

I don't understand why you think its safe to give MS the benefit of the doubt in a scenario such as this, when several devs in this very thread are questioning the very feasibility of such an endeavor, not to mention how all the other issues that will get brought up. Look, this is MS - this isn't the first time they've thrown a half-baked idea out there. It's just that this idea is one that is appealing to many users, while ignoring the development reality that it would be.
 

roytheone

Member
This would be a stupid move. It totally go against why people buy consoles in the first place. It will also cause problems for game developers, as they have to make games for consoles with different hardware.

Don't many multi platform developers already have to do that because they make PC version?
 

Hubble

Member
This would be a stupid move. It totally go against why people buy consoles in the first place. It will also cause problems for game developers, as they have to make games for consoles with different hardware.

The purpose of Windows 10 and UAP is for the code to easily be transferred to different devices and hardware.
 
Don't many multi platform developers already have to do that because they make PC version?

No. PC versions are very different than what is being suggested here. Not only that, PC games tend to have several functional problems, some notorious ones from the last year alone continue to make headlines, as opposed to the benefits of a closed-box system. People keep bringing up this comparison to PC gaming as if its a positive, when one of the appeals of console gaming is not having to necessarily run that risk that PC users do.

In fact, i'm just gonna quote my own response from earlier in this very thread as to when someone said this would be just like PC development.

3. As a dev, this is NOT what is currently going on in the current PC space. When we make a PC game, we have a GIANT marketplace & install base that we can sell to. We aren't assessing Steam's potential install base when making a game because we already know the potential install base is over 100+ million (obviously we don't budget according to that figure).

Before we even break this down even further, lets just start off by pointing out the obvious - PC support, EVEN when its a game focused exclusively for PC, such as X-Com 2, still yields wild & unpredictable proper functionality for the wide range of PC specs that currently exist in that ecosystem. When we consider games that have focused primarily on the console version, and then had a PC version also done, we've had significant bad examples this year alone. The fact is, attempting to support the wide variety of setups the PC platform has offered has caused huge, noticeable issues that have become increasingly prevalent. Consoles have offered some more security in this regard, but its not like console development has escaped these issues either. However, console releases tend to become way more 'guaranteed' stable upon release the longer a generation goes on, as long as the developer is leading console development first, and not on PC.

I've shipped several PC games already, and I can tell you just getting the support for various individual components is a development pipeline nightmare when it comes to optimization. Thats why so many individual PC setups slip through the cracks, and we get 'hilarious' youtube videos of issues come launch day calling the developers lazy as a result. Few QA teams can even handle doing all the proper technical testing for these setups. It isn't impossible - in fact, leading on console has helped PC releases, since it gives us a sort of old & weathered benchmark that we can work off of, while throwing in our higher-end render bells & whistles for PC users who can afford to run them.

So now, MS goes "we want to introduce a new closed box platform into the market that is a smaller increment stronger than a full-on console generational step". So, with just that alone, if the APU for the system is not the same as the prior console, we are looking at adding in a new coding development pipeline for that build of the game if its to run natively on the new machine. On top of that, that entire build will need its own branch of QA support. All while we're still building the last Xbox's version.

Not only would we have to hire more people across the board to support it, there is zero guarantee we are primed to make any more money; remember, if the early market is going to be all enthusiasts on these new machines, and there is zero indication in market history that says a casual market will catch on to this, my team is now basically dividing the potential sales we'd have on one ecosystem between two platforms. Except, the act of dividing it actually costs us more money & development time. And there is zero guarantee the new machine will ever have an install base large enough to give us a positive ROI.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Well then it totally negates the whole point of the exercise, doesn't it.

You cant claim infinite backwards compatibility if you have to buy the disks again, or worse still, download the games on the new box.

But saying that...

Assassins Creed 4, on PS4, was patched from 900 - 1080p. shortly after release.

What is stopping a 1080p patch, on the disk, from being applied, upon install, when the software detecting that you popped the disk into an Xbox 1.5

I'd wager ; nothing.

I don't think you understand his response. That 1080p update for xbox 1.5 comes from the developer. As in extra work to code for said optimization for another config.

Which is his whole point. It add's more work, since it's new code for a newer config.
 

Markoman

Member
Lukas man, thanks for the crystal ball :D Now, here's how the future may look like:
For gaming you will have PCs and consoles which function as cheap PC alternatives. Nothing new on paper.
PSN, XboxLive and Nintendowhatever will also run as services on PC.
'But but then they will loose the incentive to produce exclusive content!!!'
No, it will work just like what we are experiencing today with services like AmazonPrime.

Let's say the subscription for PSN in 2020 costs 9$ a month. It will give you acces to the usual free old games that are released while your subscription runs.
The exclusive games will work just like the TV-shows which are produced by Amazon for Prime members, but this system has to be adjusted.
A yearly sub could give you one new game for free. A two year sub could give you 4 free new games for free.
So, if ND for example releases a new PSN exclusive game in 2020 you will get free access to the game if you have chosen a 1-year subscription. Members with monthly or 3-month subs will not able to play the game for free.

Edit: Your sub can be transferred to any device: PC, console and in some cases mobile devices. For example, indie games you get through your PSN sub will also run on any tablet running the app.
 
The point is, perhaps and probably is too late for they to surpass Ps4, but if they play that game now by the time Ps5 hits its users will have to start over, sony will have to start over and Ms will already have million of users capable of running the newer games.

Sony will be practically forced to react, otherwise in a few generations they will be offset. If they do, even if they manage to outclass Ms and sell more than I think it's a win scenario for gamers because Ms boldness has pushed the market forward.

I figured BC was going to be much easier moving forward anyway with the consoles all basically being closed box PC's in terms of hardware. They aren't having to try to emulate a EE/GS or a Cell now.

I do feel like it's the end of the exclusive game on an Xbox era now though. Imagine back in the day if every exclusive OG Xbox game was also on PC.
 

Synth

Member
The reason why its so different for most apps targeted towards mobile specs, and a modern triple-A game, is because of how much more dependent games are on the hardware that they run on. Apps are written specifically to be less-hardware dependent, so that they can be used on as many mobile platforms & digital environments as possible. Games aren't written this way.

Make no mistake, there will be some games that will absolutely be developed & able to run in a way similar to most mobile apps that would work in the sort of environment some on here think this would be. But there is a LARGE difference in a code base, and how devs approach their engines & what is required of them when developing something like Angry Birds, Candy Crush, or Clash of Clans, as opposed to traditional console games like Assassin's Creed or Call of Duty.

I don't understand why you think its safe to give MS the benefit of the doubt in a scenario such as this, when several devs in this very thread are questioning the very feasibility of such an endeavor, not to mention how all the other issues that will get brought up. Look, this is MS - this isn't the first time they've thrown a half-baked idea out there. It's just that this idea is one that is appealing to many users, while ignoring the development reality that it would be.

The reason why I believe it's safe to give them the benefit of the doubt in this scenario, is simply because it's the only way the scenario can exist. I can understand concerns of "does this mean we have to test for an additional hardware spec".. but that's not the same as not being able to ship a standard Xbox One game anymore, and the new console still being able to play it. That would retroactively mean that shit like Halo 5 would suddenly require a new port....

I get that many mobile apps are deliberately less demanding (tho I feel this has more to do with potential reach, in the same sort of way something like WoW is). Games that target the high-end of mobile devices (stuff like Rage on an iPhone 4, or infinity Blade) still also carry forwards. The thing here is, you can't really get that close to the metal these days regardless. Even on an Xbox One the game will always be forced to run within its sandbox, unable to make direct calls to the system at large. It can only do what MS allows it to do, in order for it not to fuck with system-wide featuresets such as suspends, dvr, etc. Developers had to wait for MS to release resources held by the Kinect for example... they couldn't simply write some fancy ass custom code that went out and claimed that shit back for them in order to produce a more graphically complex game. So honestly, from what I can see, the situation for a console like an Xbox, isn't that unique when compared to mobile platforms, or UWAs on Windows 10. Now, if we were talking about a machine set up like a Sega Saturn or PlayStation 2, this would be an entirely different conversation.
 

Helznicht

Member
Now, if Playstation goes the same route, even better, because chances increase that they will do a PC service, too. For me as a customer, this is the ideal scenario: I will spent >1000$ on a PC and leave consoles behind.

Which would make MS pretty giddy, forcing a competitor's store and software into their backyard (Windows OS)?
 
Amazing
shit
post !

Yes, he definitly raised the bar for proper shitposting: Short, right on spot, worshipping his masterminds while at the same time defaming the competitor. And all that within a two-liner.

Hope Detectice GAF doesn't find some of his old posts which contradict his current opinion on that matter, though,
 
Yes, he definitly raised the bar for proper shitposting: Short, right on spot, worshipping his masterminds while at the same time defaming the competitor. And all that within a two-liner.

Hope Detectice GAF doesn't find some of his old posts which contradict his current opinion on that matter, though,

Reminded me of my days on aol talking psx vs n64.
 

Markoman

Member
Which would make MS pretty giddy, forcing a competitor's store and software into their backyard (Windows OS)?

????, has MS applied any force to Steam, Netflix, Watchever, Origin, Google Apps? What about Itunes running on Windows. PSN is a friggin flea compared to this.
Their 'backyard' is a totally wrong metaphor in this context as some of the companies I've mentioned also hang out in someone else's vastly bigger backyard. If your're insisting on using this image though, well, MS's backyard is already pretty crowded and they are not allowed to keep someone outside.
Keep in mind, MS is the one who is late to the party with W10 store.
 
The reason why I believe it's safe to give them the benefit of the doubt in this scenario, is simply because it's the only way the scenario can exist. I get that many mobile apps are deliberately less demanding (tho I feel this has more to do with potential reach, in the same sort of way something like WoW is). Games that target the high-end of mobile devices (stuff like Rage on an iPhone 4, or infinity Blade) still also carry forwards. The thing here is, you can't really get that close to the metal these days regardless. Even on an Xbox One the game will always be forced to run within its sandbox, unable to make direct calls to the system at large. It can only do what MS allows it to do, in order for it not to fuck with system-wide featuresets such as suspends, dvr, etc. Developers had to wait for MS to release resources held by the Kinect for example... they couldn't simply write some fancy ass custom code that went out and claimed that shit back for them in order to produce a more graphically complex game. So honestly, from what I can see, the situation for a console like an Xbox, isn't that unique when compared to mobile platforms, or UWAs on Windows 10. Now, if we were talking about a machine set up like a Sega Saturn or PlayStation 2, this would be an entirely different conversation.

Even higher end game apps are running on engines that are designed for the mobile sector, which are again, non-hardware specific. Infinity Blade ran off a specialized version of UE3, that was built as a sort of step-between a normal game engine that requires way more control of the hardware that is running it, and a traditional game engine. All of the specialization you do is towards the OS that runs your engine on a mobile app, not the actual hardware itself. You're getting far less capability, for far more flexibility. This is a huge break in the norm for Triple-A devs.

You can absolutely still get close to the metal on these consoles, especially in a closed box development environment. Sure, the OS you're running on may still have a large overhead, but you can still get as specialized as you want to get with your game engine. Trust me on this.
 
Don't mobile game devs already do this? Code once, run on as many platforms as possible while scaling the game to fit the hardware?

Yes, but mobile game development and their engines & triple-A development and their engines are not identical. Mobile games are written to be specialized towards the OS its running on, not the hardware that its running on. Triple-A games are written to be specialized towards the hardware its running on.
 

cakely

Member
One thing we haven't talked about yet is what if Sony does the same?

Sony isn't going to react to this in any way.

They're especially not going to follow suit as some have suggested with their own hardware revision, or by putting their exclusives on Steam or some other windows game service.

We've seen this before ... a competitor (Microsoft) comes out with a significantly better performing piece of hardware (Xbox OG) midway through a generation (PlayStation 2). What did Sony do? Nothing. They stayed the course with the same hardware, kept all the 3rd-party support, and went on to sell 155 million units.

We'll probably see a cheaper PlayStation4, in a smaller form factor, but the differences will all be cosmetic. It will have the same performance specs.
 
Yes, but mobile game development and their engines & triple-A development and their engines are not identical. Mobile games are written to be specialized towards the OS its running on, not the hardware that its running on. Triple-A games are written to be specialized towards the hardware its running on.

Won't future games which are meant for Windows 10, Xbox One and the rest of the windows family be written for 1 specialized OS as well? Windows. Am I not understanding this announcement correctly? Isn't the point to unify everything (including devs coding methods/tools/etc) into 1 single streamlined underlying OS?

Code once, run everywhere?
 

Markoman

Member
Sony isn't going to react to this in any way.

They're especially not going to follow suit as some have suggested with their own hardware revision, or by putting their exclusives on Steam or some other windows game service.

We've seen this before ... a competitor (Microsoft) comes out with a significantly better performing piece of hardware (Xbox OG) midway through a generation (PlayStation 2). What did Sony do? Nothing. They stayed the course with the same hardware, kept all the 3rd-party support, and went on to sell 155 million units.

We'll probably see a cheaper PlayStation4, in a smaller form factor, but the differences will all be cosmetic. It will have the same performance specs.

But, you are implying that MS will fail with this strategy... again. Do you really think that in case of people buying new XboxOne.X in droves that Sony will just sit there and watch? All I'm saying: if PS4 continues to sell better as XboxOne and XboxOne.5, yes, they will do nothing. If this turns the tides though, they will adjust their strategy accordingly.

Everything else sounds like Xbox mafia fan-fiction:'Yo, finally Xbox is stronger, will close the sales gap soon and Sony can't do shit about it' ;P
 
One thing we haven't talked about yet is what if Sony does the same?
If it's sooo easy to pull this of, Sony will manage to counter this.
So, let's say MS announces Xbox1.5 at this year's E3, launch: fall 2017 with specs above PS4.
What kind of impact do people expect in that holiday season with 60+ mio. Playstation 4 users (~ fall 2017) and ~30mio. XboxOne users at that point? People will be on the fence if they should buy it and if Sony goes out and announces a PS4.5 or even PS5, launch: 2018 at E3 2017, MS is screwed, because I can easily see the majority of Playstation fans waiting one year for an even better box by their brand of choice. The 'finally Xbox is stronger' thunder will only last for a short period of time.
This kind of business plan then will end up being a nice service for Xbox die-hard fans, but I don't see this as realistic way of increasing market-share.

Why going through all that trouble? Selling the PS4 below $250 will do the trick as well. GT Sports, Final Fantasy VII, well, all their exclusives and maybe even PSVR will make sure they won't react immediately with a tech-upgrade (besides a possible new SKU with Blu-Ray 4k support, that is).

Thing is, it might force their hand on the long run, e.g. antedating introduction of PS5 (not PS4.x shit) by 1-2 years.
 
Sony isn't going to react to this in any way.

They're especially not going to follow suit as some have suggested with their own hardware revision, or by putting their exclusives on Steam or some other windows game service.

We've seen this before ... a competitor (Microsoft) comes out with a significantly better performing piece of hardware (Xbox OG) midway through a generation (PlayStation 2). What did Sony do? Nothing. They stayed the course with the same hardware, kept all the 3rd-party support, and went on to sell 155 million units.

We'll probably see a cheaper PlayStation4, in a smaller form factor, but the differences will all be cosmetic. It will have the same performance specs.

Not that I disagree with you or anything about Sony etc, but history doesn't repeat itself perfectly. That time the Xbox was brand new, this time it has 10+ years of gaming behind it. Ditto the guy above who said 'imagine if all OG Xbox games were on PC', which, if I am reading it right, conflates present for past and simply assumes the conditions are identical.

Etc.
 
One thing we haven't talked about yet is what if Sony does the same?

Microsoft is a better software company than Sony. I don't think Sony can match Microsoft's efforts in that category, but that won't mean Sony wont try. Sony should continue to excel where they're really good at; Hardware.
 

jelly

Member
If VR takes off, I could see Sony releasing a new console to better support it. A slow burner, Sony stay the course for a normal generation.
 

cakely

Member
But, you are implying that MS will fail with this strategy... again. Do you really think that in case of people buying new XboxOne.X in droves that Sony will just sit there and watch? All I'm saying: if PS4 continues to sell better as XboxOne and XboxOne.5, yes, they will do nothing. If this turns the tides though, they will adjust their strategy accordingly.

Actually, yes, I do believe that, even if Xbox 1.1 has an incredible launch in North America, Sony would stay the course and keep their R&D working on their Gen 9 console.
 
Won't future games which are meant for Windows 10, Xbox One and the rest of the windows family be written for 1 specialized OS as well? Windows. Am I not understanding this announcement correctly? Isn't the point to unify everything (including devs coding methods/tools/etc) into 1 single streamlined underlying OS?

Code once, run everywhere?

For mobile devs? Sure. Console devs, and console games, are not built this way. You're basically asking every code team in modern triple-A games to adopt an entirely different approach to their code base. Heck, we don't even do this on current W10, DX12 games.
 

leeh

Member
Actually, yes, I do believe that, even if Xbox 1.1 has an incredible launch in North America, Sony would stay the course and keep their R&D working on their Gen 9 console.
I'm with you. It takes a lot more than someone saying "oh lets do incremental upgrades". You'd have to change your entire processes around that business division to support that choice.

As well, Sony simply don't have the software resource and power to be able to drive this.
 

Markoman

Member
Microsoft is a better software company than Sony. I don't think Sony can match Microsoft's efforts in that category, but that won't mean Sony wont try. Sony should continue to excel where they're really good at; Hardware.

Wait what, here we are discussing MS's plans of releasing Xboxes more frequently with full compatibility and yet you are stressing the fact that MS excels as a Software developer while Sony is better at doing hardware?
Going by the last pages of this thread, Sony is run by a bunch of clueless monkeys. :D

Actually, yes, I do believe that, even if Xbox 1.1 has an incredible launch in North America, Sony would stay the course and keep their R&D working on their Gen 9 console.

I see, fair enough.
 

vg260

Member
I may be in the minority here, but I'm excited about this plan, and I love the idea of not being stuck in a stagnant hardware generation. I also like the idea of the games being ecosystem based, not tied to a single platform within it.

If I can carry old favorites over with no hassle from previous generations, with possible improvements to old and new games as hardware improves, that's very compelling to me. I especially hate having to abandon old accessories every generation and rebuy them for a new console. Being able to keep using the Xbox stuff I own and not have to pack up all my accessories would be great.I understand the potential cons, but for me the potential pros far outweigh them.

I'm not saying there are not any tangible cons, but I think a lot of dislike from these plans come from the perception people might have that others would be somehow getting a better experience than them and that feels bad. Some might rather everyone be held back than feel like they are getting a sub-par experience somehow. I think that's why a lot of people prefer consoles to PCs.
 

cakely

Member
Lol can't wait to see how many fanboys will cry when Xbox becomes more powerful than ps4. And some idiots think MS is getting out of consoles?? Lol wtf smh. Xb1 keeps getting better and innovating ps4 is still boring.

Wow, how did I miss this little gem?

I will say, it perfectly compliments the rest of his post history.
 

Synth

Member
Even higher end game apps are running on engines that are designed for the mobile sector, which are again, non-hardware specific. Infinity Blade ran off a specialized version of UE3, that was built as a sort of step-between a normal game engine that requires way more control of the hardware that is running it, and a traditional game engine. All of the specialization you do is towards the OS that runs your engine on a mobile app, not the actual hardware itself. You're getting far less capability, for far more flexibility. This is a huge break in the norm for Triple-A devs.

You can absolutely still get close to the metal on these consoles, especially in a closed box development environment. Sure, the OS you're running on may still have a large overhead, but you can still get as specialized as you want to get with your game engine. Trust me on this.

I definitely believe you that general games are more closely aligned with the hardware than mobile apps (which are designed from the outset to eventually move to different hardware)... I just don't see it being the case that in the case of the Xbox One at least, that it's so closely tied that they can't be moved from it. If that was the case, this thread wouldn't be able to exist, because a new model of the same Xbox console couldn't be created. Obviously due to my relative lack of experience with such development environments, I'd generally accept what you say to more likely hold true than what my limited knowledge on the subject leads me to assume... however in this case we have the head of the Xbox division, who'd know exactly how games interact with the Xbox console directly stating that they're able to offer more powerful hardware without invalidating the software that already exists, as a result of how they've implemented their platform. So it's rather difficult for me to simply trust you that this wouldn't be possible.

As for being able to get as specialized as you want... that's just something we're going to have to simply disagree on (or at the very least disagree on what "as specialized as you want" entails). Even if you create your own gaming engine instead of adopting something like UE4 for example... can you decide to forego DirectX sitting between your code and the hardware? Can you make the Xbox button perform a function in your game, rather than go to the home screen? Can you prevent a player from snapping Netflix, because you could really use that memory? These things are controller by MS and they define the base rules on how anything you create can interact with the hardware. Nobody this gen is getting to try a "Stop n' Swap" of any kind.
 

wapplew

Member
Wait what, here we are discussing MS's plans of releasing Xboxes more frequently with full compatibility and yet you are stressing the fact that MS excels as a Software developer while Sony is better at doing hardware?
Going by the last pages of this thread, Sony is run by a bunch of clueless monkeys.

I think he mean MS good at software so they can make magic UWA that solves port problem but Sony don't have that, so Sony can't play the incremental upgrade game.
 

Nekki

Member
What I don't like about this model is the potential pricing structure. I wouldn't want to have to pay 300-400$ every two years just to play the latest games. So game configuration is mandatory I think.
 

Markoman

Member
I think he mean MS good at software so they can make magic UWA that solves port problem but Sony don't have that, so Sony can't play the incremental upgrade game.

Is this the same kind of magic that occasionally let's me loose my temper when I'm working with their software for the last 20 years?

Sony is done, as MS is the only company on this planet to pull this off. See, how they were able to build the nr. 1 online software store and the number one search engine...wait, that was someody else.
 
I definitely believe you that general games are more closely aligned with the hardware than mobile apps (which are designed from the outset to eventually move to different hardware)... I just don't see it being the case that in the case of the Xbox One at least, that it's so closely tied that they can't be moved from it. If that was the case, this thread wouldn't be able to exist, because a new model of the same Xbox console couldn't be created. Obviously due to my relative lack of experience with such development environments, I'd generally accept what you say to more likely hold true than what my limited knowledge on the subject leads me to assume... however in this case we have the head of the Xbox division, who'd know exactly how games interact with the Xbox console directly stating that they're able to offer more powerful hardware without invalidating the software that already exists, as a result of how they've implemented their platform. So it's rather difficult for me to simply trust you that this wouldn't be possible.

As for being able to get as specialized as you want... that's just something we're going to have to simply disagree on (or at the very least disagree on what "as specialized as you want" entails). Even if you create your own gaming engine instead of adopting something like UE4 for example... can you decide to forego DirectX sitting between your code and the hardware? Can you make the Xbox button perform a function in your game, rather than go to the home screen? Can you prevent a player from snapping Netflix, because you could really use that memory? These things are controller by MS and they define the base rules on how anything you create can interact with the hardware. Nobody this gen is getting to try a "Stop n' Swap" of any kind.


You're right that the OS you're working through, and its overhead, is something you do not have access to. I did give a scenario that would allow this to be possible - emulation. That, or streaming a server rendering the game to the user. Yes, the head of Xbox is making a claim about launching a new console. Thats what this would be - a new console. A new console that is relatively conservative in terms of the technical iteration on top of its predecessor than we are normally used to when discussing console generations, but a new console nonetheless. The other way this would be possible would be if it were a beefed up version of the same APU they already have, warts & all. When i'm talking specialization, i'm talking about your render pipeline, your memory manager, your various code threads, etc. - those are all things that can be specialized to the hardware your code is running on. These specializations are things we do when developing PC & Console games that we don't do when developing mobile games. In mobile games, we allow the OS to handle much of that for us.

Honestly, considering there is no other detail other than a blurb over some future intent of theirs, I think this topic has gone way past the point that we can go in terms of discussion. What we're talking about now is feasibility. And we have devs in here saying that the feasibility of such an endeavor, especially in how the community thinks it would go, as not anywhere near as clear cut as that blurb made it sound like.
 

viHuGi

Banned
Is this the same kind of magic that occasionally let's me loose my temper when I'm working with their software for the last 20 years?

Sony is done, as MS is the only company on this planet to pull this off. See, how they were able to build the nr. 1 online software store and the number one search engine...wait, that was someody else.

hahaha Apple and Google have made MS look little a joke in recent years but who knows the future.
 

Zedox

Member
The reason why SneakerSO is saying what he is saying is because traditionally game development has been using engines to do some generalized code but then the devs go in and try to ease out the most power out of the system that their engine allows (also while having hackjobs on the side, render pipeline and such). So doing the same thing for 2 versions of a console is a nightmare because of the hackjobs to make stuff look good for both versions. I totally get that as a dev (not in gaming but I do that on the side).

The reason why people say UWP/UWA and mobile and such is because of opportunity cost. Normally you would (as a dev) be getting all the power out of the box as much as possible, find out ways to do it...but if there's another version of the hardware that should scale with your code (obviously you need settings for such stuff) then you wouldn't need to squeeze it out for the lower version. Yes, this does mean that the previous version of the console wouldn't be getting the best it possibly can. So the time a dev would be "wasting" to grab all that power could be used elsewhere. That's why Phil Spencer even mentioned decoupling the hardware from the software. There's downsides and upsides to both.

That's not to say that a dev should be throwing away time to make a game look/perform well. What it does say is that the generic code of the engines used need to take advantage of the APIs of DX12/UWP so that the scaling happens easier and get the performance as much as they possibly can towards the API and minimize the amount of "hacks" one has to do for a version. The hacks is the issue is because that's where testing comes in and that's where the cost is.

So I say that there will be a change in how one would be developing their code (depending on how they want to approach development). GDC will probably be answering a lot of these questions for devs. It's going to be a change of the mindset on how one approaches game development. So yes, in the traditional sense, yes, you're absolutely right SneakersSO. I see it (my opinion) that it will go to how it is in the mobile development space where you are easing the power of the API as much as one can and let the hardware/API do work that normally is on the dev. That's not to say that there won't be hacks, but it should be minimized. The engine folk are going to have a lot of changing to do.

Hopefully what I said makes sense.
 

gamz

Member
Is this the same kind of magic that occasionally let's me loose my temper when I'm working with their software for the last 20 years?

Sony is done, as MS is the only company on this planet to pull this off. See, how they were able to build the nr. 1 online software store and the number one search engine...wait, that was someody else.

What the hell?
 

wapplew

Member
You're right that the OS you're working through, and its overhead, is something you do not have access to. I did give a scenario that would allow this to be possible - emulation. That, or streaming a server rendering the game to the user. Yes, the head of Xbox is making a claim about launching a new console. Thats what this would be - a new console. A new console that is relatively conservative in terms of the technical iteration on top of its predecessor than we are normally used to when discussing console generations, but a new console nonetheless. The other way this would be possible would be if it were a beefed up version of the same APU they already have, warts & all. When i'm talking specialization, i'm talking about your render pipeline, your memory manager, your various code threads, etc. - those are all things that can be specialized to the hardware your code is running on, even on Xbox One.

Honestly, considering there is no other detail other than a blurb over some future intent of theirs, I think this topic has gone way past the point that we can go in terms of discussion. What we're talking about now is feasibility. And we have devs in here saying that the feasibility of such an endeavor, especially in how the community thinks it would go, as not anywhere near as clear cut as that blurb made it sound like.

Maybe it's time to create a thread about what UWA can and cannot do.
 
By the time PS6 hits, it will be against 60m+ because MS keep supporting Xbox one?
More likely situation is MS cut off Xbox one support which make the install base remain 30m.

In the spam of the new generation will xbox one support be dropped? For sure for most titles, by the time competition hits? I don't think so, just like 360 and ps3 kept going receiving games for a while after Ps4 and Xbone came. If anything developers will have more incentive to support older hardware because a sale is a sale no matter what device.

And that's kinda the point, if someone keeps just the xbox one, by the time Ps5 hits the person will still be able to purchase games for his system that will work even better on new hardware.

So by then this person will have a choice. Do I remain on xbox where I can have all my games, many of them will play better, and I still can use my accessories, or do I lose it all to switch to Ps5?

If they already had that in place for 360-> Xbone I doubt we would see that many gamers that switched from 360 to Ps4 this gen.

And Ms is in a very good position because they can tap into 360 and OGxbox libraries to give even more incentive to be invested on their consoles.
 
Sony doesn't have do anything just watch from the sidelines ps4 has all the momentum with another price drop this year it will more than 60 million sold. They are adding VR this year also if it does take off this will make the generation last longer. There's also PS4 slim don't really know how small they can make them since the PS4 is already very small. Even if the launch of xbx1.5 is successfull Sony will keep going and develop the ps5 the same as the PS4.
 
Sony doesn't have do anything just watch from the sidelines ps4 has all the momentum with another price drop this year it will more than 60 million sold. They are adding VR this year also if it does take off this will make the generation last longer. There's also PS4 slim don't really know how small they can make them since the PS4 is already very small. Even if the launch of xbx1.5 is successfull Sony will keep going and develop the ps5 the same as the PS4.

All of the console manufacturers are looking into this same thing. They've all said as much
 

Zedox

Member
I'll also like to mention that what MS is doing is what Apple, Google, and all the big tech companies have been doing (well all companies)...lock into the ecosystem. It makes it much harder to switch to another ecosystem with this. Not saying one can't have both systems (I encourage that) but having all of your games follow you will make it hard for some people who are PS4/XBO to switch if they only can afford one system as they would be essentially "starting over" with their library. It's easier to do that with ~6-8 year generations...but if you could get one ~4 years into it, would you choose to leave all of your games and go to the other side? Not saying people wouldn't...but it just helps lockin.
 
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