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[MilkyJoe]

It will never work like that, unless the stronger hardware is emulating the weaker machine. In order for the game to run natively on both machines, it would have to be two versions of the same game.

I really dont think so.

 

[gamz]

Ehm, not exactly. Sure, every hardware manufacturer would love to keep one version of their device as long s possible. Gen 7 was an exception (huge losses at start, recession, strong sales very late)- once again, under normal conditions I expect PS5 to arrive in 2018/2019.

For me the essential question is now - what are MS's expectations + intentions with this strategy:
A) Do they really expect this will knock Playstation of it's throne?
B) or are they going for a Nintendo mentality: 'We won't go for a head-to-head competition with Sony in the console space anymore'. Meaning: Main focus on W10 and services and future Xbox=cheap PC is a nice bonus to have and to get people into their services.

I think you are waaaayyy downplaying it. Two things:

More powerful hardware matters and it's a selling point. Games look and play better.

Having your digital ecosystem for said generation carry over to the next is a godsend! If MS cracked that code then consoles going digital makes more sense then ever. That to me is the big draw. Telling their userbase you'll never lose the games and the eco is ever evolving is HUGE!

 

[wapplew]

They don't need to de two separate versions. Pc version already uses higher fidelity assets, higher precision effects and higher resolution/framerates than consoles, that can all apply to the new xbone.

In theory they don't even have to fine tune. Ms has been adding assessing tools into directx ever since windows 8.1 so your code can test the machine performance and scale the graphics item per item given the hardware capabilities.

Keep in mind Ms goal is to have applications and games running from high end desktop all the way to low powered cell phones, compared to that supporting scaling on the same magnitude of power is a piece of cake.

Well, what you describe still a theory as best.
Let's see when MS can achieve that, I sure hope it's ready when Xbox 1.5 launch.

 

[gamz]

I agree, I remember the whole 720P vs 1080P a wee bit overblown.

In the end the price has to be right and have the games that are fun. Worked in the past

This ain't the past. DF has pushed specs to front and center this gen. This gen more then ever specs matter.

 

[SneakersSO]

I'm not quite sure I understand how you object to my point. In the name of clearness, I'm talking about a specific scenario where Ms launches a Xbone.5 and sony finds itself forced to do the same. In that case, even if sony can steal Ms thunder back Ms will have driven the market forward.

Sony wouldn't do it. They have no need to. They never did it in the past. The original Xbox was far stronger than the PS2, and Sony didn't even blink as it continued to sell millions and millions of units while games ran worse on their machine compared to the OG Xbox.

The fact is, 'power' is not something the console market values anywhere near as much as the core audience and console warrior crowd. You think Sony would throw away all of its sales momentum it's enjoying on the PS4 just because they are no longer the strongest console on the block? That's insane logic in the world of sales.

 

[Klart]

Having your digital ecosystem for said generation carry over to the next is a godsend! If MS cracked that code then consoles going digital makes more sense then ever. That to me is the big draw. Telling their userbase you'll never lose the games and the eco is ever evolving is HUGE!

It's not that big of a deal, really. I would really like it, yes, but it's not gonna make MS sell heaps.

 

[Tntnico]

What I need to see in a Xbox One Plus version :

- Oculus Rift Ready

And that's all. The hardware needs for a Oculus ready console implies that the vast majority of games should run in 1080p 60fps.

So yes, Oculus isn't cheap, but it is a premium VR experience, and it is the VR headset that gets the most PR (because of being pioneer and because of Facebook).

Seriously Microsoft, I need that Minecraft VR on Xbox One !

 

[SneakersSO]

I really dont think so.

I'm a dev - I AM TELLING YOU, that's the only way this works. Especially for closed-box software development.

 

[Night Angel]

Or you prefer the convenience of a console, without the fannying about that comes with a PC?

That might be true for some people, but I'm willing to bet there's a subset of people who, after learning that they can now play all (or most, whatever) XB1 exclusives on PC, will switch over.

Not sure where you're going with this. You replied to one person who said this and the exclusive news would push them toward not getting an Xbox. Maybe they don't mind installing a few drivers (oh, the horror) and clicking like 6 buttons on Nvidia Experience to optimize their games on the PC.

 

[gamz]

It's not that big of a deal, really. I would really like it, yes, but it's not gonna make MS sell heaps.

It actually is. When Sony 5 comes out and all your digital games you bought are worthless. Shit will hit the fan. That's one of the selling points of steam.

 

[Markoman]

I'm not quite sure I understand how you object to my point. In the name of clearness, I'm talking about a specific scenario where Ms launches a Xbone.5 and sony finds itself forced to do the same. In that case, even if sony can steal Ms thunder back Ms will have driven the market forward.

...and what if this is MS's reaction to the current situation: Sony beating them 2:1 ww and NX approaching on the horizon (imagine it being more powerful than XboxOne)- So, then Sony and Nintendo are forcing them to react .

You can spin this the way you want. I just don't see MS in a leading position in this game, no matter what the pull off. They will throw down a card and Sony will react - this is keeping Sony in the stronger position as their much bigger PS mind-share is their ace.

 

[feint_ruled]

I'm a dev - I AM TELLING YOU, that's the only way this works. Especially for closed-box software development.

I guess the idea is, it's not closed-box dev. It's UWA dev. The various XBox flavours just being UWA devices. Like iOS development.

 

[SneakersSO]

It actually is. When Sony 5 comes out and all your digital games you bought are worthless. Shit will hit the fan. That's one of the selling points of steam.

Consoles & PC have been different in this regard since 2004, when Steam launched. The fact is, console users do not care about BC anywhere near to such a degree. If they did, the Wii U would have done better, as would have the PS3, and the 360 would have never taken off on account of them not having real BC at launch.

Console users don't care about losing their library, as long as they have had enough time to enjoy their games on that platform.

 

[Clear]

Seems like MS are on the back foot still and are desperately trying to shore-up the Windows market by folding everything into it.

The end-game being that Xbox is no longer a hardware platform but a segment of windows with branded accessories. That's not evolving the console business, its a strategic withdrawal.

 

[Ivory Samoan]

It's a pity the Xbox One didn't come with a memory/gpu expansion port like the N64 one (although I know it wouldn't work that way in this day and age).

Having said that, I upgraded my N64's memory...and I don't remember it making anything much better (I think perhaps Turok had a special version or something).

 

[Night Angel]

It actually is. When Sony 5 comes out and all your digital games you bought are worthless. Shit will hit the fan. That's one of the selling points of steam.

I guess we'll see what happens. I find it unlikely that the next Sony console won't be BC since they won't need additional hardware or emulation to run old games, assuming they stick with the architecture they have (and I can't see them changing that). Time will tell, but acting like it's a foregone conclusion that the PS5 won't run PS4 games is silly.

 

[gamz]

I guess the idea is, it's not closed-box dev. It's UWA dev. The various XBox flavours just being UWA devices. Like iOS development.

Yes, that's the whole idea of UWA you are separating the hardware from software. It's not tied to that particular console like it did in the past.

 

[Gamespawn]

Well, it wouldn't really be too versions of the same game. Rather one version that runs in two modes (similar to something likeTurok 2 on N64, or Marvel Super Heroes on Saturn). If the developer chose not to, the I guess the result would simply be that the game would look identical on both versions of the console, with the upgraded model simply seeing better performance (unless the game has a stable locked framerate, in which case there would be no difference at all).

That's what I've been thinking. The problem is how Turok 2 ran if you didn't own one of those expansion paks. It was terrible. So did Conker. Im afraid that some devs may abuse this and make a game require a upgraded unit to play their game.

Could you imagine if Gears 4 was a pack-in and if you didn't upgrade, you couldn't play? People would go apeshit.

 

[gamz]

I guess we'll see what happens. I find it unlikely that the next Sony console won't be BC since they won't need additional hardware or emulation to run old games, assuming they stick with the architecture they have (and I can't see them changing that). Time will tell, but acting like it's a foregone conclusion that the PS5 won't run PS4 games is silly.

Until they say something we can only assume. I guess we'll know in E3.

If they can't they have to figure out a way.

 

[Sweep14]

It actually is. When Sony 5 comes out and all your digital games you bought are worthless. Shit will hit the fan. That's one of the selling points of steam.

Pretty certain imho that PS5 will use the same X86 architecture of PS4 with full hardware backward compatibility available at launch. Your PS4 digital library will be fully playable on PS5.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

This ain't the past. DF has pushed specs to front and center this gen. This gen more then ever specs matter.

I've been hearing this since the nes days.

I respectfully disagree

 

[gamz]

That's what I've been thinking. The problem is how Turok 2 ran if you didn't own one of those expansion paks. It was terrible. So did Conker. Im afraid that some devs may abuse this and make a game require a upgraded unit to play their game.

Could you imagine if Gears 4 was a pack-in and if you didn't upgrade, you couldn't play? People would go apeshit.

Of course people would go apeshit and that would never happen. You'll lose sales. Doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

[SneakersSO]

I guess the idea is, it's not closed-box dev. It's UWA dev. The various XBox flavours just being UWA devices. Like iOS development.

Except games will NEVER be that flexible as applications. Most games require rigorous amounts of specialization to work properly on a closed box. If any of the APU is different on the XO+ versus the original XO, I'm now working off a different code base.

Most apps do not use a heck of a lot of hardware capabilities, hence why they are so flexible on the hardware they run on. Games use a ton more power and capabilities of hardware.

 

[Synth]

Sony wouldn't do it. They have no need to. They never did it in the past. The original Xbox was far stronger than the PS2, and Sony didn't even blink as it continued to sell millions and millions of units while games ran worse on their machine compared to the OG Xbox.

The fact is, 'power' is not something the console market values anywhere near as much as the core audience and console warrior crowd. You think Sony would throw away all of its sales momentum it's enjoying on the PS4 just because they are no longer the strongest console on the block? That's insane logic in the world of sales.

Eh, it wouldn't really be a case of throwing away sales momentum though, and it's also not a similar situation to the OG Xbox. The PS2 was weaker than the OG Xbox and Gamecube, but those were both new systems that were starting out at zero in comparison to a PS2 that had an install base of millions and a large software library, accessories etc. A new upgraded Xbox model wouldn't be in the same boat as the OG Xbox was. It would have all the software that the current Xbox One has, and developers wouldn't have to create games to sell uniquely to the subset of customers that bought the new version. It's not a 32X style upgrade where if only 500k users have the device then that's your potential addressable market when you ship a game that runs on it. You'd simply ship an Xbox One game like you do now, but also (optionally) make some graphical adjustments to cater for those with the more powerful model. Maybe you just use the same graphics profile that you use for the PS4 version of the game.. maybe you enable some graphical features that would others on be in the PC release. There'd be extra work involved in this, sure... but it's not the same as creating a whole separate port for a new platform, and you could realistically simply choose not to change anything at all. I think it's safe to assume that if MS releases an upgraded model, then it'll be ensured to at the very least run existing software equally to the base model... so developers can continue to only target that base model if they choose to. It won't be XB1.5 vs PS4, it'd be XB1+XB1.5 vs PS4, in the same manner that all iterations of the 3DS would be compared against the Vita.

 

[Helznicht]

Consoles & PC have been different in this regard since 2004, when Steam launched. The fact is, console users do not care about BC anywhere near to such a degree. If they did, the Wii U would have done better, as would have the PS3, and the 360 would have never taken off on account of them not having real BC at launch.

Console users don't care about losing their library, as long as they have had enough time to enjoy their games on that platform.

I am a console user, I absolutely care, and it pisses me off I have to keep old consoles lying about to play my old gen games. So speak for yourself.

 

[Markoman]

I think you are waaaayyy downplaying it. Two things:

More powerful hardware matters and it's a selling point. Games look and play better.

Having your digital ecosystem for said generation carry over to the next is a godsend! If MS cracked that code then consoles going digital makes more sense then ever. That to me is the big draw. Telling their userbase you'll never lose the games and the eco is ever evolving is HUGE!

And you're downplaying brand-loyalty and -awarenes. Like someone mentioned below just look at Gamecube and Xbox1 vs. PS2. This gen Sony got the best of many worlds:
- Playstation is a much stronger brand ww
- lower price at start
- more power
- no fuck-ups
This is a pretty plausible recipy for succes.
What MS is able to offer with an upcoming Xbox upgrade RIGHT NOW is just 'more power'.

 

[gamz]

Except games will NEVER be that flexible as applications. Most games require rigorous amounts of specialization to work properly on a closed box. If any of the APU is different on the XO+ versus the original XO, I'm now working off a different code base.

Most apps do not use a heck of a lot of hardware capabilities, hence why they are so flexible on the hardware they run on. Games use a ton more power and capabilities of hardware.

Aren't they doing it now with their exclusives?

 

[wapplew]

Some of these comment on UWA need to be addressed by real dev. Many still take MS PR face value as in UWA can magically fix every port problem someday.

 

[PG2G]

Except games will NEVER be that flexible as applications. Most games require rigorous amounts of specialization to work properly on a closed box. If any of the APU is different on the XO+ versus the original XO, I'm now working off a different code base.

Most apps do not use a heck of a lot of hardware capabilities, hence why they are so flexible on the hardware they run on. Games use a ton more power and capabilities of hardware.

So how does every PC game manage it?

 

[Ushay]

Your statement was:

I'm saying you can already.

(Sorry for the late response)
I don't have a gaming PC. I can't, at least not in my current circumstance.

Your argument has merit if you directly compare PC vs Console, however it's empirically incorrect to assume everyone is in the same situation and would make the same direct comparison, that simply isn't true.

 

[gamz]

And you're downplaying brand-loyalty and -awarenes. Like someone mentioned below just look at Gamecube and Xbox1 vs. PS2. This gen Sony got the best of many worlds:
- Playstation is a much stronger brand ww
- lower price at start
- more power
- no fuck-ups
This is a pretty plausible recipy for succes.
What MS is able to offer with an upcoming Xbox upgrade RIGHT NOW is just 'more power'.

Brand loyalty and awareness is always in flux. Esp in the US.

 

[Night Angel]

Aren't they doing it now with their exclusives?

I haven't read anything that suggests developing ROTTR or QB on UWA made the ports easier/instantaneous.

 

[SneakersSO]

I am a console user, I absolutely care, and it pisses me off I have to keep old consoles lying about to play my old gen games. So speak for yourself.

Okay, you do. There are many other users like you in this market base who do. But I'm telling you right now - you're, unfortunately, the minority in this sentiment. The majority of the market you are in doesn't care. Heck, if they did, the Xbox One would have enjoyed an immediate and sustained increase in sales the moment BC was announced. And yet, here we are, and the needle hasn't moved.

 

[gamz]

I haven't read anything that suggests developing ROTTR or QB on UWA made the ports easier/instantaneous.

So maybe it is? We don't know at this point.

 

[Massa]

Well, this too.
Asking thirdparty spend more resource to make 2 version of the game and not allow them to sold separately, let's see how that's pan out.

Why do you think that? I'd expect the same Xbox disc to work on multiple different hardware revisions if they go forward with this.

 

[PG2G]

Okay, you do. There are many other users like you in this market base who do. But I'm telling you right now - you're, unfortunately, the minority in this sentiment. The majority of the market you are in doesn't care. Heck, if they did, the Xbox One would have enjoyed an immediate and sustained increase in sales the moment BC was announced. And yet, here we are, and the needle hasn't moved.

The generation of gamers who have grown up on iPad is going to have an expectation that their digital content carry over from device to device. Every piece of software they have used works that way. I think it's silly to think that consoles can keep the clean slate approach to each generation.

 

[Adam802]

Lol can't wait to see how many fanboys will cry when Xbox becomes more powerful than ps4. And some idiots think MS is getting out of consoles?? Lol wtf smh. Xb1 keeps getting better and innovating ps4 is still boring.

 

[Malcolm9]

I am a console user, I absolutely care, and it pisses me off I have to keep old consoles lying about to play my old gen games. So speak for yourself.

No but I think he's right in the fact that most are happy to play all the games they want in that particular generation and then they move on, it's only the enthusiasts that seem to want to access every game they have bought ever.

I've bought tons of digital games in the past on the PS3 and it hasn't bothered me one bit they aren't able to be downloaded onto the PS4. Each to their own and all that, but I'd say the majority think the same way.

 

[Night Angel]

So maybe it is? We don't know at this point.

So the baseline assumption should be that nothing has changed until we learn it has?

 

[Markoman]

Brand loyalty and awareness is always in flux. Esp in the US.

Yes, and that's keeping PS4 vs XboxOne at 2:1. Excluding US/UK it's maybe 4:1 pro PS4. Europe + Asia haven't switched sides yet since MS entered the market, but I guess only US counts.

 

[GopherD]

Why do you think that? I'd expect the same Xbox disc to work on multiple different hardware revisions if they go forward with this.

Oh for goodness sake.

 

[gamz]

Okay, you do. There are many other users like you in this market base who do. But I'm telling you right now - you're, unfortunately, the minority in this sentiment. The majority of the market you are in doesn't care. Heck, if they did, the Xbox One would have enjoyed an immediate and sustained increase in sales the moment BC was announced. And yet, here we are, and the needle hasn't moved.

They do care. They did care in other gens but it was mostly physical and you can sell the games. This gen it's moving more and more towards digital and if you can't keep your games it sucks. Come on! It's absurd if you can't and on every other eco system you can.

People except their digital libraries to follow them. And frankly they should. Again, Steam users don't lose their games.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Lol can't wait to see how many fanboys will cry when Xbox becomes more powerful than ps4. And some idiots think MS is getting out of consoles?? Lol wtf smh. Xb1 keeps getting better and innovating ps4 is still boring.

Do you consider yourself a fanboy?

 

[Bitch Pudding]

I think you are waaaayyy downplaying it. Two things:

More powerful hardware matters and it's a selling point. Games look and play better.

!

Well, it is. Thing is, you have to look at the package. PS2 and Wii showed us that you can dominate a market and having the weakest platform (tech-wise) at the same time.

In this special case, we also should mention
- lack of exclusive games
- the higher price, compared to its predecessor and competition
- NX around the corner
- PSVR around the corner
- yet another price cut of both PS4 and XBOX One around the corner
- the fact that 20mn already bought an XBOX One within the last 2 years and already can play XBOX One games and
- another fact, which is that an incremental update as mentioned by Phil will only result in an incremental increase of graphics (diminishing returns!)

The thing is, this might give XBOO the edge over PS4 on DF in certain games, but the overall experience will be almost the same, especially on non-laboratory conditions.

And if the upgrade is not incremental but severe, the price will be far above mass market level.

 

[feint_ruled]

I haven't read anything that suggests developing ROTTR or QB on UWA made the ports easier/instantaneous.

Aren't ROTR, QB, Gears all just Win32 apps wrapped in the sandbox so they can run through the UWA framework? ROTR for sure, as it is on Steam too. So MS and partners are not even 'eating their own dogfood' yet. Another reason to be sceptical, perhaps.

 

[LukasTaves]

As a dev, I assure you, nothing in your post reflects the reality of coding a game to a closed box system, or of modern game development. I have gone at length in this thread as to why this would be a nightmare for devs, and most publishers wouldn't even support such a model- they would just support the box with the larger install base and call it a day.

I also have been working as a software dev for more than 10 years (and as a hobbyist game dev wannabe) I've had very little experience coding to a closed system, but with current games complexity I can't imagine it being all about going super low level code that won't be useable any where else.

On 360 we had devs (even first party) not going all in into the architecture because they knew it would be a useless effort. Then you have game engines providers who only need to do the hard work once.

And also, the uwp is not a solution for having the exact same code on all platforms, is a solution to share the most of the code base and deploy a single package, instead of going through many certifications processes. Specialized code for each platform is possible, but it enables to be done only when needed, instead of changing the entire code to a different API.

How well Ms will succeed remains to be seem, but in their favor, some games have been ported fairly quickly to the new app platform and the performance seems great on the Pc side, though there are some issues with Gears Ultimate in that regard. The big question is how well it runs on the Xbone side, they haven't showed much yet, even universal apps on xbone we kinda only get sneak peeks, but I doubt they would go that route if they weren't absolutely sure that performance wouldn't be a compromise, because they can't afford to concede an even greater advantage to sony in that regard.

 

[MilkyJoe]

I'm a dev - I AM TELLING YOU, that's the only way this works. Especially for closed-box software development.

Well then it totally negates the whole point of the exercise, doesn't it.

You cant claim infinite backwards compatibility if you have to buy the disks again, or worse still, download the games on the new box.

But saying that...

Assassins Creed 4, on PS4, was patched from 900 - 1080p. shortly after release.

What is stopping a 1080p patch, on the disk, from being applied, upon install, when the software detecting that you popped the disk into an Xbox 1.5

I'd wager ; nothing.

 

[SneakersSO]

Eh, it wouldn't really be a case of throwing away sales momentum though, and it's also not a similar situation to the OG Xbox. The PS2 was weaker than the OG Xbox and Gamecube, but those were both new systems that were starting out at zero in comparison to a PS2 that had an install base of millions and a large software library, accessories etc. A new upgraded Xbox model wouldn't be in the same boat as the OG Xbox was. It would have all the software that the current Xbox One has, and developers wouldn't have to create games to sell uniquely to the subset of customers that bought the new version. It's not a 32X style upgrade where if only 500k users have the device then that's your potential addressable market when you ship a game that runs on it. You'd simply ship an Xbox One game like you do now, but also (optionally) make some graphical adjustments to cater for those with the more powerful model. Maybe you just use the same graphics profile that you use for the PS4 version of the game.. maybe you enable some graphical features that would others on be in the PC release. There'd be extra work involved in this, sure... but it's not the same as creating a whole separate port for a new platform, and you could realistically simply choose not to change anything at all. I think it's safe to assume that if MS releases an upgraded model, then it'll be ensured to at the very least run existing software equally to the base model... so developers can continue to only target that base model if they choose to. It won't be XB1.5 vs PS4, it'd be XB1+XB1.5 vs PS4, in the same manner that all iterations of the 3DS would be compared against the Vita.

Okay, I am telling you, this wouldn't be how it would work. I can't ship one version of a game and have it run natively on this other machine without me doing a substantial amount of work. You can't just use the graphical config of another console - are you being serious? This is all a nightmare!

It would absolutely be a machine that is starting from zero in terms of install base. I know you don't see that, but i'm telling you that thats how it would be perceived. This won't be a scenario like the new 3DS or gameboy-gameboy color.

 

[plasmawave]

Do you consider yourself a fanboy?

Read his post history lol.

 

[Helznicht]

Each to their own and all that, but I'd say the majority think the same way.

I'd say the majority think that the majority feel like they do.