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Rumor: Hardware partnerships for all 3 next gen consoles (Wii U, PS4, Next Xbox)

BurntPork

Banned
Lazy8s said:
The choice of processor IP is critical to the efficiency of the system design.

And as obvious as picking the demonstrated leader in graphics is, the console manufacturers have time after time made non-optimal selections because of their misplaced priorities for supplier discounts, internal sourcing, corporate partnerships, etc.
Show me the numbers and a comparison to similar products, and I'll see your point.

I'm guessing you're comparing it to 3DS, in which case "skill" was definitely the wrong word to use. I mean, I guess you have a bit of an argument, but at the same time the two handhelds clearly were not built with the same goals in mind, so it's a bit of a stretch to decide that Sony is better at designing systems because of it.
 

KageMaru

Member
brotkasten said:
The Geforce 8600 series (G84 GPU) is based on the same architecture as the 8800 series (G80 GPU). The RSX in the PS3 is based on the previous architecture (G70), so you're probably thinking of the 7600 series, which would be wrong. The RSX is probably more like an overclocked 7800GTX with a 128-bit memory bus.

Actually wouldn't it basically be an overclocked 7600 since the ROP units got cut in half from the 7800? My memory could be fading as it's been a long time since I've paid that much attention to the current gen GPUs.
 
StevieP said:
Obviously I know what the difference between a CPU and APU is. All I'm inferring is that the CPU you're working on is going into the rumoured Bulldozer-based APU that's being discussed in the original rumour. All three manufacturers are likely to have AMD GPUs.

I'll put it together in a Columbo-like (RIP) fashion for you:

1) You work at AMD (confirmed by detective GAF)
2) You said you're working on a CPU for one of the next gen consoles
3) Nintendo is using an IBM CPU (rules them out) with an AMD GPU
4) Microsoft is *rumoured* to be using an IBM CPU with an AMD GPU
5) Sony is *rumoured* to be flip-flopping between another IBM CPU and an AMD CPU, according to HardOCP's sources.
6) IF Sony decides to use your AMD design, they'd be getting an AMD CPU and an AMD GPU.
7) In this case, it would make more sense from a power-consumption perspective and cost perspective to get an APU package - also discussed in the HardOCP rumour source.
8) Trinity is the "performance" segment APU on the 2012 AMD roadmap. It is, much as with this rumour, based on a Bulldozer CPU and a midrange GPU in a neat package.

I am simply inferring that from almost every conceivable angle, if the 2012 PS4 has your CPU in it, it will be on some kind of APU package similar to or based on Trinity. This based on an AMD CPU and AMD GPU being in the PS4, based on HardOCP's sources. Your NDA may not let you correct me if I'm wrong (or right).

This guy works for AMD.

Trinity is medium-end. For a console, it makes a lot of sense. High end GPUs won't be going into console form next gen.

"Next gen" has nothing to do with hardware power. It never has. It just means the next generation of consoles.
Your logic is impeccable but something about this does not feel right. We have a Software company who's products are for the most part based on X86 staying with a PPU and a Hardware & Media company who co-developed a game and multi-media processor based on a PPU going with a X86 processor. ?? I'm guessing the AMD processor and GPU will be @ 28nm.

"Next gen" has nothing to do with hardware power". Next Gen is in part about the power but it must have features that define it as a next generation. In the past it was because of a total hardware change made necessary by advances in technology for a next generation 10X increase in performance requiring a change in processor & GPU; that's not totally necessary this generation. This generation we are probably looking at 2-4 times faster at best and there is no real need that I can see to totally break with compatibility with the previous generation; GPU yes but CPU no. There is only economics that might be in play here for the choice of CPU.

For the consumer (me) a game machine that supports 1080P and a game machine that supports 1080P better is not enough to define a next generation.
 
KageMaru said:
Actually wouldn't it basically be an overclocked 7600 since the ROP units got cut in half from the 7800? My memory could be fading as it's been a long time since I've paid that much attention to the current gen GPUs.
Right, right, the ROPs got cut in half (8 vs 16), but the amount of pixel and vetex shader pipelines are the same (24 PS, 8 VS), which is still more than the average 7600GT.

So it's an overclocked 7800 GTX with half the bandwidth and half the pixel fillrate.
 
Nvidia Kepler and AMD Southern Islands have both moved to early 2012, while Nvidia Maxwell has moved to 2014.

Kepler has moved from late 2011 to early 2012 and Maxwell has moved from 2013 to 2014: http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20110707PD211.html

Planned launch of Nvidia 28nm and 22/20nm GPUs moved back to 2012 and 2014

Monica Chen, Taipei; Joseph Tsai, DIGITIMES [Friday 8 July 2011]


Despite Nvidia CEO Huang Jen-hsun previously saying that the company is set to announce its new 28nm GPU architecture at the end of 2011 and 22/20nm in 2013, sources from graphics card makers have pointed out that Nvidia has already adjusted its roadmap and delayed 28nm Kepler and 22/20nm Maxwell to 2012 and 2014.

The sources believe that the delay is due to unsatisfactory yield rates of Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company's (TSMC) 28nm process. TSMC originally expected its 28nm capacity at Fab15 to be available in the fourth quarter of 2011 and was set to start pilot production for its 20nm process technology in the third quarter of 2012.

However, TSMC's other major client Qualcomm, currently, still has not yet adjusted its 28nm process schedule and is set to launch three new products, 8960. 8270 and 8260A using dual-core Krait architecture in the fourth quarter of 2011.

Meanwhile, AMD will follow its original schedule and enter the 28nm era in the first half of 2012. The company's next-generation graphics chips Southern Island as well as Krishna and Wichita processors, which will replace the existing Ontraio and Zacate processors, and will all adopt a 28nm process from TSMC.

So chanced of Maxwell powering PS4 are less, unless Sony plans to launch in 2014.


more sources: http://tech2.in.com/news/graphics-cards/nvidia’s-28nm-kepler-gpu-delayed-till-2012/229542

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/poor_yields_push_fermi_successor_q1_2012

http://lenzfire.com/2011/07/nvidia-kepler-2012-and-maxwell-2014-release-date-official-2/


new roadmap:
111.png



This also makes it less likely that Wii U GPU will be on 28nm unless things go really well. It could be that Wii U GPU is on the old 40nm process. I guess we'll see.
 

Lazy8s

The ghost of Dreamcast past
This is only news if you didn't already know TSMC's projections were overly optimistic... again... for the umpteenth time.

As if they could've realistically been nipping at the heels of Intel for the next process generation...
 

StevieP

Banned
Lazy8s said:
This is only news if you didn't already know TSMC's projections were overly optimistic... again... for the umpteenth time.

As if they could've realistically been nipping at the heels of Intel for the next process generation...

This is exactly what GAF thinks. It's no better than believing in nanobot technology.
 

gwarm01

Member
Luckily you won't have to use bleeding edge technology to produce a "generational" leap over the current consoles. A power efficient mid-range card based on modern technology would blow what we have out of the water.
 

StevieP

Banned
gwarm01 said:
Luckily you won't have to use bleeding edge technology to produce a "generational" leap over the current consoles. A power efficient mid-range card based on modern technology would blow what we have out of the water.

Yes, technically. But not in a noticable sense. The problem is diminishing returns, not that today's midrange parts shit on Xenos. They do. And all 3 of the next gen consoles will, too, technically.
 

gwarm01

Member
I just played the Playstation 3 version of Fallout 3 on a 23" 1080p monitor. I immediately followed it up with New Vegas on my PC (Athlon 2 x3, HD 5850. by no means a monster super computer). The difference was phenomenal. It was the difference between a multiplatform game on the PS2 vs. PS3. And this was a game designed with the limitations of this five year old hardware in mind.

I stand by the assertion that modern, midrange PC parts would provide a huge increase in visual fidelity. Especially considering the efficiency of programming directly to a known system specification.

That being said, I still expect PCs to outclass the new consoles on day one. The PC games will just finally have games made that utilize their capabilities a little better.
 
The PS4 won't use an APU unless AMD pulls some wonderous technology out of their asses. APU's are a great tech for laptops and mass consumer light gaming PCs but they're no benefit I see from using one for a dedicated game machine. A new cell with AMD graphics card sounds far more plausible.
 

StevieP

Banned
Tallshortman said:
The PS4 won't use an APU unless AMD pulls some wonderous technology out of their asses. APU's are a great tech for laptops and mass consumer light gaming PCs but they're no benefit I see from using one for a dedicated game machine. A new cell with AMD graphics card sounds far more plausible.

2 words: power consumption. 2 more words: Cost benefit. High-end GPUs won't be going into the 8th generation of consoles.
Read this again:
StevieP said:
Obviously I know what the difference between a CPU and APU is. All I'm inferring is that the CPU you're working on is going into the rumoured Bulldozer-based APU that's being discussed in the original rumour. All three manufacturers are likely to have AMD GPUs.

I'll put it together in a Columbo-like (RIP) fashion for you:

1) You work at AMD (confirmed by detective GAF)
2) You said you're working on a CPU for one of the next gen consoles
3) Nintendo is using an IBM CPU (rules them out) with an AMD GPU
4) Microsoft is *rumoured* to be using an IBM CPU with an AMD GPU
5) Sony is *rumoured* to be flip-flopping between another IBM CPU and an AMD CPU, according to HardOCP's sources.
6) IF Sony decides to use your AMD design, they'd be getting an AMD CPU and an AMD GPU.
7) In this case, it would make more sense from a power-consumption perspective and cost perspective to get an APU package - also discussed in the HardOCP rumour source.
8) Trinity is the "performance" segment APU on the 2012 AMD roadmap. It is, much as with this rumour, based on a Bulldozer CPU and a midrange GPU in a neat package.

I am simply inferring that from almost every conceivable angle, if the 2012 PS4 has your CPU in it, it will be on some kind of APU package similar to or based on Trinity. This based on an AMD CPU and AMD GPU being in the PS4, based on HardOCP's sources. Your NDA may not let you correct me if I'm wrong (or right).

This guy works for AMD.

Trinity is medium-end. For a console, it makes a lot of sense. High end GPUs won't be going into console form next gen.

"Next gen" has nothing to do with hardware power. It never has. It just means the next generation of consoles.
 

gwarm01

Member
The argument you posted makes a lot of sense save for one part. Name one generational leap that didn't involve vastly improved hardware save for the Wii.

There will ALWAYS be a segment of the market that is willing to pay the costs and accept the sacrifices requires for a high end gaming machine. To think that at least one of the new consoles won't be a large leap in power is just delusional. It reeks of latching on to the latest trend of commonly accepted fact in the gaming community that has no basis in reality.
 

StevieP

Banned
gwarm01 said:
The argument you posted makes a lot of sense save for one part. Name one generational leap that didn't involve vastly improved hardware save for the Wii.

There will ALWAYS be a segment of the market that is willing to pay the costs and accept the sacrifices requires for a high end gaming machine. To think that at least one of the new consoles won't be a large leap in power is just delusional. It reeks of latching on to the latest trend of commonly accepted fact in the gaming community that has no basis in reality.

Even the Wii U is going to be "vastly improved" hardware from this generation, despite that it will be the weakest of the bunch. That doesn't change the fact that this will likely be the smallest generational leap in history, thanks to a few of the factors described.

1) Power consumption for top-end GPUs has gone off the deep end in the past half decade (instead of effeciency, nvidia and ATI have simply ramped up). We've gone from approximately 100w for the top end, to approximately 300w for the top end, give or take 50w. Now this is fine for us PC gamers, because we simply get a bigger power supply and better cooling in our massive case that's needed to house these monsters. But console manufacturers don't have that luxury.

2) 1080p is still the resolution ceiling, and will be for the next decade at the very least. With most of the top games of this generation being near-SD (with most of you apparently not noticing), this is fine. Hell, you're still going to get a ton of games going 720p/30fps next gen too. But it won't be like the past, where we've increased our resolution ceiling each succesive generation.

3) The razor blade model of selling consoles won't be as pronounced for either MS or Sony, thanks to the multi-billions they've both lost. Not to say they won't do it, just not to the same extent as indicated by their respective leaders multiple times over the past couple years.

4) Consumers have shown repulsion at prices that are anyhwere near "$599" - and none of the manufacturers will go near that figure again. Part of the reason for going that high for Sony was using immature (read: "too new") tech that was difficult for fabrication plants to produce in any kind of respectable quantity. The tech that will go into the next round of consoles won't be bleeding-edge. It will be more mature and much easier to produce, if anyone's learned their lessons.

And by the looks of the Vita, Sony has. The Vita is using a quad-core variant of a CPU that was released in 2009 (Cortex A9), instead of the more powerful 2011 version, the Cortex A15. It is also using a GPU released in 2010 (the PowerVR 5 series) instead of the brand new and more powerful PowerVR 6 series from this year. It is leveraging the cost-benefit of the booming mobile phone space, and using mature tech rather than bleeding-edge.

Before you say "but look, they're creating a handheld that's so powerful!" you have to realize that the mobile space has been accelerated in the past half decade far beyond the desktop space, where console parts come from. While desktop CPUs have gotten more effecient per watt (albeit at a slower rate than mobile), desktop GPUs have not really done that to any appreciable degree.

What I'm saying is, the PS2-PS3 type leap is just not going to happen this generation, unless you want a giant box that costs $600 again that sounds like a jet engine when you power it up.
 

sTeLioSco

Banned
PuppetSlave said:
Are people overestimating how large the ps2 to ps3 jump was?

It feels like they are comparing early ps2 gen to late ps3 gen.

the hardware was a big jump,and games today are running in higher resolutions.
(yes even the "subhd" games)

if the 360/ps3 games had the standard of 480p you could add "more stuff" onscreen....
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
StevieP said:
2 words: power consumption
What was the power consumption of the original version of X360? That was a machine priced 'right' and was in a casing that was moderately small. Slightly bigger casing giving more airflow and better cooler inside wouldn't hurt to prevent meltdowns of original hardware, but it could give some indication of what can be expected in terms of power usage from them next time around.

You're assuming an APU would be used in PS4, but I'm pretty sure both MS and Sony have different strategies in place to outmaneuver each other in terms of hardware power, because they both know better visuals is where the bulk of their initial (and later) hype and sales will come from. In an essence, if MS uses a normal CPU+GPU combo that blows the suggested APU out of the water, and decide to sell it at the same price, Sony knows their console (that they might otherwise try to sell at greater profit) would get laughed out of the market. Thus, they will simply need to use something else no matter what, or they risk ceding whole 'enthusiats' market they tried to cater so much this gen, to MS.

In any case, I think it would be a very short sighted move to use what's essentially a laptop tech in a dedicated gaming console, and I very much doubt they'll go that way, given that they didn't skimp on beefing up (proven) hardware in Vita as much as they could.

StevieP said:
Even the Wii U is going to be "vastly improved" hardware from this generation, despite that it will be the weakest of the bunch.
Do we know this for real... real? The demos they've shown were all 720p, no AA, 30FPS and even had framerate problems.
 

StevieP

Banned
Lord Error said:
What was the power consumption of the original version of X360? That was a machine priced 'right' and was in a casing that was moderately small. Slightly bigger casing giving more airflow and better cooler inside wouldn't hurt to prevent meltdowns of original hardware, but it could give some indication of what can be expected in terms of power usage from them next time around.

You're assuming an APU would be used in PS4, but I'm pretty sure both MS and Sony have different strategies in place to outmaneuver each other in terms of hardware power, because they both know better visuals is where the bulk of their initial (and later) hype and sales will come from. In an essence, if MS uses something that blows the suggested APU out of the water, and decide to sell it at the same price, Sony knows their console (that they might otherwise try to sell at greater profit) would get laughed out of the market. Thus, they will simply need to use something else no matter what, or they risk ceding whole 'enthusiats' market they tried to cater so much this gen, to MS.

Because the most powerful systems always win. The Xbox smoked the PS2. SMOKED. Hell even the Gamecube was far more powerful. The Wii did not get laughed out of the market. The DS looks like complete and utter ass, even next to the PSP. It's not about visuals in the console space like it is in the PC space.

Do we know this for real... real? The demos they've shown were all 720p, no AA, 30FPS and even had framerate problems.

It would take Nintendo to make a concious effort to put hardware that doesn't smoke what's inside the 360, and actually be more expensive for them to do so from a supplier's perspective. The hardware that's inside Fusion Llano creams the 360, and most PC gamers consider it to be crappy. What's inside the Wii U will almost certainly be weaker than a console released in 2013, but to think it will simply be on par or a tiny bit better than what's out there now is ludicrious. My laptop vastly outperforms both HD consoles combined, and it's not bleeding-edge. It's only dimishing returns that cloud people's perceptions of what "next gen" will actually be capable of.
 

VariantX

Member
none of that stuff shown at E3 was on final hardware. its still reasonable to think that the finalized hardware would be able to produce better and smoother visuals.
 
VariantX said:
none of that stuff shown at E3 was on final hardware. its still reasonable to think that the finalized hardware would be able to produce better and smoother visuals.
Sure, it could happen.
But in the end we don't know anything about it, and since we don't there is no point guessing.
 

Luckyman

Banned
lol @ the $599 trolling.

599 had nothing to do with graphical power of the machine. All about Kutaragi fucked up dreams and Blu-ray.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
StevieP said:
And by the looks of the Vita, Sony has. The Vita is using a quad-core variant of a CPU that was released in 2009 (Cortex A9), instead of the more powerful 2011 version, the Cortex A15. It is also using a GPU released in 2010 (the PowerVR 5 series) instead of the brand new and more powerful PowerVR 6 series from this year. It is leveraging the cost-benefit of the booming mobile phone space, and using mature tech rather than bleeding-edge.
The original series 5 architecture, aka SGX, is circa '05. The MP variant (XT) started life in '09.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
StevieP said:
Because the most powerful systems always win. The Xbox smoked the PS2. SMOKED. Hell even the Gamecube was far more powerful. The Wii did not get laughed out of the market. The DS looks like complete and utter ass, even next to the PSP. It's not about visuals in the console space like it is in the PC space.
By the end of its life, Xbox won Microsoft tremendous mindshare and loyal fanbase that they are reaping to this day with X360, all thanks to its more powerful hardware. It was of course released much later than PS2, and by that time, and riding on the tail of ridiculous PS1 success, PS2 built an insurmountable sales advantage. However, this advantage did erode with time, slowly but surely.

In a situation where both release around the same time (and no PS1-like success coattails to ride on) a notable power advantage of one camp would definitely make people stop and think. I'm also going an extra step here saying that Sony in particular cannot afford to have such a big handicap next time around, seeing how far they've fallen from being market and media darling of old. They can't just make a 'weak' console and hope it will sell amazing numbers despite more powerful competition releasing side by side. Not with the ever-increasing mindshare and sales Xbox enjoys today.


It would take Nintendo to make a conscious effort to put hardware that doesn't smoke what's inside the 360, and actually be more expensive for them to do so from a supplier's perspective.
Well, whatever they're putting in, hasn't generated demos with attributes that people normally associate with 'significantly better' so far, even by some basic measures.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Luckyman said:
lol @ the $599 trolling.

599 had nothing to do with graphical power of the machine. All about Kutaragi fucked up dreams and Blu-ray.
The RSX was so weak in certain aspects it actually had to rely on the SPUs for assistance. The pricetag of the machine had everything to do with the overall design, and that includes, gasp, the GPU.
 

Reallink

Member
StevieP said:
2 words: power consumption. 2 more words: Cost benefit. High-end GPUs won't be going into the 8th generation of consoles.
Read this again:

Just to point out, you could have used this same logic and argument back in 2004 to attempt to explain away the PS3 in the same fashion. "There's no way Sony's going to go from a 70W PSU in the OG PS2 to a 380W PS3 in a case that's more than double the volume." While I agree that it's pretty unlikely we're going to see the same scale up from previous generations, you can't fairly draw any conclusions based on that fact alone. It would certainly not be without precedent for Sony, MS, or whomever to stick a 500W PSU in an 1000 cubic inch case as similar ramp ups have already happened with the PS1 > PS2 > PS3.

StevieP said:
Because the most powerful systems always win. The Xbox smoked the PS2. SMOKED. Hell even the Gamecube was far more powerful. The Wii did not get laughed out of the market. The DS looks like complete and utter ass, even next to the PSP. It's not about visuals in the console space like it is in the PC space.

It would take Nintendo to make a concious effort to put hardware that doesn't smoke what's inside the 360, and actually be more expensive for them to do so from a supplier's perspective. The hardware that's inside Fusion Llano creams the 360, and most PC gamers consider it to be crappy. What's inside the Wii U will almost certainly be weaker than a console released in 2013, but to think it will simply be on par or a tiny bit better than what's out there now is ludicrious. My laptop vastly outperforms both HD consoles combined, and it's not bleeding-edge. It's only dimishing returns that cloud people's perceptions of what "next gen" will actually be capable of.

Nintendo would make this conscious effort because they are sinking $50-$80 into a screened controller, and because their hardware will be sold at a $50-$100 profit. Only the price tag to the consumer would be more expensive than the 360, internally the cost of such a system would be the same or less than the 360. That's not to say this is what's going to happen, just that the 360's price says nothing about where the Wii U may or may not wind up power wise.
 
Lord Error said:
By the end of its life, Xbox won Microsoft tremendous mindshare and loyal fanbase that they are reaping to this day with X360, all thanks to its more powerful hardware. It was of course released much later than PS2, and by that time, and riding on the tail of ridiculous PS1 success, PS2 built an insurmountable sales advantage. However, this advantage did erode with time, slowly but surely.

The Xbox only launched a year after the PS2, not much later. Plus the insurmountable sales advantage only grew over the years it never eroded. The Xbox and GC weren't even close to the sales of the PS2.

In a situation where both release around the same time (and no PS1-like success coattails to ride on) a notable power advantage of one camp would definitely make people stop and think. I'm also going an extra step here saying that Sony in particular cannot afford to have such a big handicap next time around, seeing how far they've fallen from being market and media darling of old. They can't just make a 'weak' console and hope it will sell amazing numbers despite more powerful competition releasing side by side. Not with the ever-increasing mindshare and sales Xbox enjoys today.

People need to get it into their thick heads that its not hardware power that sells consoles. Its the right balance of good well priced hardware with software that people want that sells consoles. Christ I don't know how many times it can be said in these fucking threads.
 

gwarm01

Member
Reallink said:
Just to point out, you could have used this same logic and argument back in 2004 to attempt to explain away the PS3 in the same fashion. "There's no way Sony's going to go from a 70W PSU in the OG PS2 to a 380W PS3 in a case that's more than double the volume."

Here here! It would be nice if someone could compile the data on all of the major home consoles. I'd be willing to bet that the trend has always been a large increase in power consumption from each generation to the next. It's not insane to expect the same thing to happen again.
 

StevieP

Banned
I'm going to quote myself from another thread:
StevieP said:
He's one of the people who thinks that things like this:
01.jpg


Can fit into things like this:
xbox360dimensions.jpg


With the magic of a die-shrink.

And then add one of these for posterity:
corsair-builder-series-cx500-80plus-certified-500w-psu-frps-c500cxe.jpg


Along with a big "LOL", because we no longer have our laughing smilies.

Edit: It should also be pointed out, that according to Forbes the Wii was making Nintendo $6 per system in 2008.
 
StevieP said:
Edit: It should also be pointed out, that according to Forbes the Wii was making Nintendo $6 per system in 2008.


This can't be said enough times. I don't know where people come up with these magic numbers of them making 50 - 100 bucks on consoles at launch.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
Honestly, I don't give a fuck how big a console is as long as it fits in my media cabinet. And my media cabinet has a lot of room.
 

Reallink

Member
StevieP said:
I'm going to quote myself from another thread:


And then add one of these for posterity:
http://www.zapsonline.com/46911-33598-large/corsair-builder-series-cx500-80plus-certified-500w-psu-frps-c500cxe.jpg[/IMG

Along with a big "LOL", because we no longer have our laughing smilies.

Edit: It should also be pointed out, that according to [URL="http://www.forbes.com/2008/11/28/nintendo-wii-wii2-tech-personal-cz-cs-1201wii.html"]Forbes[/URL] the Wii was making Nintendo $6 per system in 2008.[/QUOTE]

Not really sure who you're responding to with that. OG 360 only has a volume of ~400 cubic inches. I was referencing a scale up to something more in line with your typical AVR, ~1000 cubic inches. So no, I was not suggesting you're going to fit a triple cooled GTX 580 or whatever the fuck that is in a 360 case with a 800W PSU. OG 360's PSU (power brick) is external by the way and already approaches the size of many standard PC PSU's. If Nintendo were only pocketing $6 on a $250 Wii back in 2008, then it was because it was a design as ill conceived as the Xbox 1. They were definitely getting reamed by their component partners if that was truly the case.
 

StevieP

Banned
Reallink said:
Not really sure who you're responding to with that. OG 360 only has a volume of ~400 cubic inches. I was referencing a scale up to something more in line with your typical AVR, ~1000 cubic inches. So no, I was not suggesting you're going to fit a triple cooled GTX 580 or whatever the fuck that is in a 360 case with a 800W PSU. OG 360's PSU (power brick) is external by the way and already approaches the size of many standard PC PSU's. If Nintendo were only pocketing $6 on a $250 Wii back in 2008, then it was because it was a design as ill conceived as the Xbox 1. They were definitely getting reamed by their component partners if that was truly the case.

Do you honestly believe the next Xbox is going to look like this:
silverstone_sst_LC10B-E_front_right.jpg
?

And in the same breath, the OG Xbox was drawing about 200w. A power brick is most effecient at 50% usage, hence the size of the OG 360 power brick. If you're building a 400w monster of a console, the power brick will greatly exceed the size of the OG 360 power brick.

As far as the Forbes article - what you and many others fail to consider, is that it's not just about the bill of materials. The OG Wii probably DID cost about $150 to build after cost breakdowns in 2008 (though I remember it being $190 at launch). It's not just component prices that dictate profit. There are margins, distribution, and a whole lot of other costs associated with a console which lead the analyist to post that $6 figure.

I don't think I need to illustrate the kind of bath Microsoft and Sony took with their consoles, but there are graphs that Jokeropedia has posted countless times that I'd hope you've seen by now. What I'm trying to say is that the bath won't be as large next gen, and those hoping otherwise will be disappointed.

That giant videocard pictured above is what produces games that look as good as what top-end PCs are producing with games designed to take advantage of PC hardware. Consoles built in the next half-decade can't and won't have silicon that's as extravagant or powerful by the simple matter of physics and the laws of thermodynamics, save for boxes that look like that one above.
 

gwarm01

Member
The original Xbox was pretty damn big *cue picture of Xbox crashing into the Earth's atmosphere* wasn't it? You could use a case that size again and get a pretty damn good custom chip in there. It's not going to be a 580 but it's not like they use commercial parts in these things anyway.
 

Reallink

Member
StevieP said:
Do you honestly believe the next Xbox is going to look like this:
silverstone_sst_LC10B-E_front_right.jpg
?

And in the same breath, the OG Xbox was drawing about 200w. A power brick is most effecient at 50% usage, hence the size of the OG 360 power brick. If you're building a 400w monster of a console, the power brick will greatly exceed the size of the OG 360 power brick.

As far as the Forbes article - what you and many others fail to consider, is that it's not just about the bill of materials. The OG Wii probably DID cost about $150 to build after cost breakdowns in 2008 (though I remember it being $190 at launch). It's not just component prices that dictate profit. There are margins, distribution, and a whole lot of other costs associated with a console which lead the analyist to post that $6 figure.

I don't think I need to illustrate the kind of bath Microsoft and Sony took with their consoles, but there are graphs that Jokeropedia has posted countless times that I'd hope you've seen by now. What I'm trying to say is that the bath won't be as large next gen, and those hoping otherwise will be disappointed.

That giant videocard pictured above is what produces games that look as good as what top-end PCs are producing with games designed to take advantage of PC hardware. Consoles built in the next half-decade can't and won't have silicon that's as extravagant or powerful by the simple matter of physics and the laws of thermodynamics, save for boxes that look like that one above.


No I'm not suggesting the PS4box will look like that, I was suggesting it could look something like this:
x6g0tf.png
(which is ~1000 cubic inches by the way, your example appears to be several thousand.).

The issue is you're immediately jumping to extremes--triple cooled GTX580/6990/Whatever, some giant full sized HTPC case. That's not a possibility, and no one in their right mind is suggesting it is. As I already said, I agree that it's probably not very likely you're going to see a huge scale up, just pointing out you have no evidence to entirely dismiss the possibility (which is what you're trying to do). You don't need an oversized GPU to max out modern PC games. A smaller mainstream card from 2009 (GTX 460) has no problem running modern games at 1080p/30 maxed out (which is the most likely class, size, and TDP consoles would be apt to use, not a GTX580 or whatever). The beast cards are there to allow for 60fps, 8xAA, and other eccentricities. This whole discussion started because there were points being made that the next consoles effectively have to use APU's because any kind of worthwhile stand alone GPU is just impossible to do in a console anymore. My point was not necessarily, why are we assuming they can't just scale up size/TDP like every other Playstation generation before?
 
StevieP said:
2 words: power consumption. 2 more words: Cost benefit. High-end GPUs won't be going into the 8th generation of consoles.
Read this again:

I never mentioned a high end GPU. I just said an AMD GPU. Obviously there won't be a high end GPU in the new consoles since it's cost prohibitive and there's simply no precedent for it.
 

Jin34

Member
We reported earlier this month in our "E3 Rumors on Next Generation Console Hardware" article that Microsoft's next-gen Xbox would likely be sporting a new IBM cell processor, although we did suggest that was not written in stone. We are hearing this week that AMD has very likely locked up the whole shebang with a Fusion Bulldozer variant APU. This of course will be a huge win for AMD.

They seem to be saying that both the PS4 and next Xbox will be Fusion Bulldozer chips though their wording isn't very clear.
 
CoffeeJanitor said:
3DS is your answer.


You mean the iSupply breakdown, which was proved that iSupply had NO FUCKING CLUE. Plus I mean it didn't take a ton of shit into account besides parts cost. Yeah no that's not an answer.

Christ its just the same shit again and again in these threads. There needs to be a master thread people have to read before they can post in these threads.

Please read this


StevieP said:
As far as the Forbes article - what you and many others fail to consider, is that it's not just about the bill of materials. The OG Wii probably DID cost about $150 to build after cost breakdowns in 2008 (though I remember it being $190 at launch). It's not just component prices that dictate profit. There are margins, distribution, and a whole lot of other costs associated with a console which lead the analyist to post that $6 figure.

Anyway moving on.


Jin34 said:
They seem to be saying that both the PS4 and next Xbox will be Fusion Bulldozer chips though their wording isn't very clear.

o_O No where in what you quoted does it even mention the PS4. They're only talking about the next Xbox. If the cell talk confused you, I believe there was a rumor that the next Xbox would use a newer version of it.
 

Jin34

Member
Shin Johnpv said:
You mean the iSupply breakdown, which was proved that iSupply had NO FUCKING CLUE. Plus I mean it didn't take a ton of shit into account besides parts cost. Yeah no that's not an answer.

Christ its just the same shit again and again in these threads. There needs to be a master thread people have to read before they can post in these threads.

Please read this




Anyway moving on.




o_O No where in what you quoted does it even mention the PS4. They're only talking about the next Xbox. If the cell talk confused you, I believe there was a rumor that the next Xbox would use a newer version of it.

In their original article they said the PS4 was a Fusion APU, now they are talking about the Xbox which was waffling between IBM and AMD according to them.

Agree on the forced master thread before you can post on stuff like this, if I see that damn Nvidia pic that means jack shit for video games one more time... I don't know how the mods do it sometimes.
 

Jin34

Member
Shin Johnpv said:
Ahhhh sorry didn't know their original article mentioned the PS4, sorry about that.

TBH I think their original article has the Xbox and PS4 mixed up, it just makes more sense if it read that the PS4 was going to use a new Cell and that MS was waffling between an IBM cpu and an AMD fusion chip.
 

StevieP

Banned
Jin34 said:
They seem to be saying that both the PS4 and next Xbox will be Fusion Bulldozer chips though their wording isn't very clear.

But what about Avatar visuals in realtime? Bulldozer-based fusion parts will be using midrange Northern Islands chips :( :( :(
 

Luigiv

Member
Nirolak said:
So far every other rumor has pegged this as a tri-core, unless they put a tri-core in as a development item only.
Could be a Vita type situation with one core reserved for background functions and only three cores available to games.
 

Krev

Unconfirmed Member
If Microsoft and Sony really are both using Fusion APUs and launch at the same time, isn't it very likely they'd have near-identical tech inside them?
 

DieH@rd

Banned
AMD APU in Xbox720! Now that's a major victory for AMD! Quadcore/8thread bulldozer cpu and middle range southern islands gpu [hopefully its not norhtern islands, but even that will be ok-ish] will make wonders!

Krev said:
If Microsoft and Sony really are both using Fusion APUs and launch at the same time, isn't it very likely they'd have near-identical tech inside them?
Yeah, but they can have different memory configurations and speeds. Who knows what will happen, maybe there will again be 1 year delay from Sony...
 

McHuj

Member
StevieP said:
But what about Avatar visuals in realtime? Bulldozer-based fusion parts will be using midrange Northern Islands chips :( :( :(

They're not going to use an off the shelf Fusion part. But, bulldozer based means anything trinity and beyond.

imo, the fusion chips seem to be much more CPU heavy than GPU heavy. I think for a console they could probably strip down the CPU cores to what only what they need for a console's performance and beef up the GPU side with extra shaders.

I actually speculate it will be a gen beyond trinity and be using GCN cores for the GPU. From the hardware side, GCN is a step by AMD to more efficient and general GPU computing. Likewise MS seems to be going that way with their C++ AMP and DirectCompute support.

By using a Fusion APU with a really programmable GPU side and strong tool support, I think MS can provide developers with the ability to run and balance stuff like AI, Physics, and Graphics much more easily than on discrete components.
 
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