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Nintendo: All Guns Blazing
- Thread starter marc^o^
- Start date
Agent Unknown
Member
raziel said:
Oh, I hear you. "Fact checking" what features any given video game may or may not utilize with its respective console is so bothersome and exhausting! What really irks me is that this type of inconvenience and expectation of basic consumer research extends into other types of media as well! Just last week I was taking a walk with my IPhone in my pocket, and while listening to one of my playlists, was quite perturbed to find out that the shuffle has a "shake" function! I took one hard step and it skipped to the next song! I was so ticked off. I've owned my IPhone since February and didn't know about this stupid, annoying feature which I for one certainly never needed, nor asked for!
So off I went, trudging into the settings menu to figure out how I could cumbersomely turn it off. I called up one of my friends to complain about this and he yelled "DUDE! WHY THE HECK DID YOU BUY AN IPHONE ANYWAY IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF A GYROMETER OR EXTRA SHUFFLE FUNCTIONS??!! LOL!" I mean really, he had me there!
Shin Johnpv
Member
Diffense said:
Yes. It is true. The only difference is your perspective. A game is a game is a game is a game.
Back in the day most "hardcore" gamers I knew called things like Madden, or any sports game "casual" bullshit. It wasn't true then and it's not true now. There is no difference of casual or hardcore, a game is a fucking game. The only difference is in your perception of them.
It doesn't matter who the target audience is. A game is a game is a game. If it appeals to you, or you like is a separate matter. There was a time when all "hardcore" stood for was people who played a lot of games. I really REALLY miss that time period. This "core" and "casual" bullshit needs to die in a fire.
Well that's just your opinion and not fact. I could make the argument that owning an Atari 2600, Commodore 128, Master System, NES, Genesis, Turbo Grafix 16, SNES, Neo Geo AES, Saturn, Playstation, N64, 3DO, Jaguar, Dreamcast, Playstation 2, Xbox, Gamecube, Playstation 3, Xbox 360, and Wii I am even more comfortable making that statement. That is just as silly and stupid though as your comment.
I personally find that Nintendo's output of high quality games is just as high as it's ever been. The only thing missing from the Wii's library I would have liked to have seen would have been another F-Zero, and a legitimate sequel to SF64. Though we got a sequel to Sin and Punishment, and finally after 2 generations with out a sequel to Punch Out!!!. Plus 3 platforming Mario games, 2 Metroid games that played differently than each other, a beautifully done 2d Wario platformer, and not to mention porting over MP1 and 2 with pointer controls.
This has been done to death on this board but if you actually take the time to LOOK at release lists, Nintendo's output really isn't any different than previous gens. it's all in your perception that things have changed and they've "forgotten" you.
Yeah 3rd party support wasn't as good as it could have been, but really its no worse than what the GC got, or the N64. Hell in some ways I'd say it was definitely better than the N64. Shit its getting Dragon Warrior X and got MH. While that may not be huge in the west that's a HUGE 3rd party win for Japan. Those 2 games alone are bigger than any 3rd party game the N64 got.
A Black Falcon
Member
The DS was released just 3 1/2 years into the GBA's life, thanks to pressure from the PSP, and the GBA was successful, so that's hardly surprising or anything bad.BurntPork said:
I mean, if Nintendo had pulled another GBC with the GBA, and ditched the system after just a couple of years, I'd have been pretty mad at them, and I'm sure I wouldn't have been the only one... I didn't buy a GBA for several years after it came out in part because of how annoyed I was at Nintendo for releasing the GBA just 2 1/2 years into the GBC's life. I was pretty happy that the GBA ended up having five 1/2 solid years before finally fading out.
uh, yeah it is. not to mention stupid, when youre looking for games that go against the platforms inherent and definitive features.Agent Unknown said:
Oh, I hear you. "Fact checking" what features any given video game may or may not utilize with its respective console is so bothersome and exhausting! What really irks me is that this type of inconvenience and expectation of basic consumer research extends into other types of media as well! Just last week I was taking a walk with my IPhone in my pocket, and while listening to one of my playlists, was quite perturbed to find out that the shuffle has a "shake" function! I took one hard step and it skipped to the next song! I was so ticked off. I've owned my IPhone since February and didn't know about this stupid, annoying feature which I for one certainly never needed, nor asked for!
So off I went, trudging into the settings menu to figure out how I could cumbersomely turn it off. I called up one of my friends to complain about this and he yelled "DUDE! WHY THE HECK DID YOU BUY AN IPHONE ANYWAY IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF A GYROMETER OR EXTRA SHUFFLE FUNCTIONS??!! LOL!" I mean really, he had me there!
i dont want them, period. try not to take it so hard, and get over it.
Shin Johnpv said:
You are almost covering your ears and yelling here.
But there is nothing one can do to counteract fact.
A large number of games made by Nintendo for Wii are not targetted at experienced or enthusiast gamers.
Sure, they can play them if they want but the games are not made particularly to excite or challenge that demographic; those games focus on accessibility.
That's precisely why Microsoft successful entry into the 'casual' market was based on even more accessibility: the abolition of controllers altogether.
I never disputed that these are games but they are also casual/"light-playing" games just as there are FPS games and RPGs which may appeal to one group but not the other.
This is an accurate perception of reality. The only way one can come to a different conclusion is by covering his eyes. And the only way one can maintain it, is by covering his ears.
Nintendo made it abundantly clear that they were going after a "new" market of previous non-players and they were very successful.
To grow that market you have to ask why they are not playing Zelda, Demon Souls, or Halo already and make games *for them*.
Typically, such games do not require a huge time commitment to play and can be enjoyed for a few minutes at a time.
They often have primitive, fuss-free graphics and feature simple control schemes that rely on intuitive motion controls to simulate familiar activities like cooking, excercising, or playing an instrument.
There is nothing *wrong* with those games but if that's what you emphasize as a platform maker the composition of your userbase will reflect that.
That's why it's hard to sell certain types of games on the Wii and Nintendo never got the organic third party support despite the HUGE installed base.
I am not making any lists as I have owned the previous two Nintendo consoles when they were current and experienced them first-hand.
I have a level ground from which to compare them all and I trust my own estimation of the Wii as fair and correct.
I'm OK if you come to a conclusion that I think is wrong; I don't need to persuade you and it would be pointless to try.
I would never try to convince someone whose favourite Nintendo game is Wii Fit/Sports that the N64 was a better console.
Yet, the Wii will be five years old before it gets a single exclusive Zelda by which time N64 already had Zelda:MM.
Resources have been allocated differently resulting in the tremendous growth of certain demographics at the cost of alienating others.
I've owned and experienced first hand every single Nintendo console since the NES and their traditional output on the Wii was as strong as it's ever been.Diffense said:
Meanwhile, Wii got two 3D Marios compared to one on N64, one 2D Mario compared to none on N64 and two Metroids compared to none on N64.Diffense said:
Jokeropia said:
My collection of Nintendo published N64 games by Rare, Nintendo, NST etc. has no equivalent on Wii all these years into its existence.
So I can't be convinced that they have been just as strong as a publisher for the part of the market with interests like mine.
Some years, like 2009, were particularly bad featuring new play control versions of NGC games I already owned, trilogy compilations of games I bought individually, Wii 'X' games I didn't want and very little else.
But they have done a good job of catering to some market segments. I won't argue with that.
Shin Johnpv
Member
Diffense said:
Except I'm not. You're the one covering your ears and not seeing that this is how its been for generations now. All the arguments put against the so called "casual" games of this generation were put against games like Madden and NCAA during the 32 bit gen. All they buy is madden every year, they're ruining our industry, going to kill off the genres we like, don't play anything else, etc etc etc. I've been gaming for close to 30 years now, its the same shit every single god damn generation.
Again you're wrong here. This has been done to death on this board before but hey let's do it again for old times sake, since some people prefer to stick their head in the sand and ignore it.
Here's a list of all the games Nintendo has made this generation for the Wii.
Wii Sports
Excite Truck
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
WarioWare: Smooth Moves
Wii Play
Super Paper Mario
Mario Party 8
Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree
Pokémon Battle Revolution
Mario Strikers Charged
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
Donkey Kong Barrel Blast
Battalion Wars 2
Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn'
Super Mario Galaxy
Link's Crossbow Training
Endless Ocean
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Mario Kart Wii
Wii Fit
Wario Land: The Shake Dimension
Wii Music
Animal Crossing: City Folk
Disaster: Day of Crisis
Mario Super Sluggers
Captain Rainbow
New Play Control! Mario Power Tennis
New Play Control! Pikmin
New Play Control! Donkey Kong Jungle Beat
Punch-Out!!
Wii Sports Resort
Metroid Prime: Trilogy
Wii Fit Plus
New Super Mario Bros. Wii
New Play Control! Pikmin 2
Another Code: R A Journey into Lost Memories
Excitebots: Trick Racing
New Play Control! Metroid Prime
New Play Control! Metroid Prime 2: Echoes
New Play Control! Chibi Robo
Tact of Magic
NHK Kōhaku Quiz Gassen
Endless Ocean 2: Adventures of the Deep
Sin and Punishment: Star Successor
Super Mario Galaxy 2
PokéPark Wii: Pikachu's Adventure
Metroid: Other M
Wii Party
Kirby's Epic Yarn
FlingSmash
Donkey Kong Country Returns
Super Mario All-Stars 25th Anniversary Edition
Dynamic Slash
And-Kensaku
Mario Sports Mix
Wii Play Motion
The Last Story
Pandora's Tower
Mystery Case Files: The Malgrave Incident
The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
Xenoblade Chronicles
Kirby's Return to Dream Land
Rhythm Heaven
Mario Party 9
Fortune Street
I count at most 11/12 of the so called "not targetted at experienced or enthusiast gamers." games, out of a total output of 65 games. I would not describe 1/6th of anything as a large amount.
Not to mention your whole "experienced or enthusiast gamers" is a complete and total bullshit line. Not every "experienced or enthusiast gamers" has the same likes and tastes. You can't target a demographic with that line. Just because you don't like something or don't think it's worth your time doesn't make it any less of a game to the person who does. I know plenty of "experienced or enthusiast gamers" who would rather spend 20 hours playing Wii Sports Resort, than 30 minutes playing Madden, or the latest Military FPS, and plenty of them would call those 2 types of games "casual". It's all perspective which again is why I say a game is a game is a game is a game. That said though, just go ahead and repeat the same well I owned he last 3 consoles and its not the same, and its not targeted at me bullshit with your head in the sand.
Diffense said:
Wasn't 09 also the year they had Punch-Out, Excitebots and New Super Mario Bros Wii?
That was a good year.
~Edit~
Just for comparison sake since I'm curious what Nintendo released on the N64 in 1999 (the same 3 years after the console)
Donkey Kong 64
Ken Griffey Jr. Slugfest
Mario Golf
Mario Party 2
NBA Courtside 2
The New Tetris
Pokemon Snap
Pokemon Stadium
Smash Bros
TheExplodingHead
Banned
For what it's worth (since this is a 3DS article mostly), I firmly believe the 3DS will easily slither into the DS's spot as the #1 handheld platform worldwide...with or without the 2nd stick. The price cut alone was conveniently done before the Vita's initial expected release, essentially killing price-wise the Vita before it even touches ground. So while it may have been embarrassing and a PR nightmare to cut price, Nintendo is still laughing all the way to the bank in the foreseeable future. Not to mention the titles slated for holiday...
Diffense said:
Just for the Wii we got 3 main-line Marios (including a 2D console one, something that seemed impossible to happen some time ago), 2 Zeldas, 2 Metroids, 2 Kirby games, a Donkey Kong Country game, a new Punch-Out, a new Sin & Punishment (!!), 2 entries to the Excite series, Fire Emblem, Wario Land (first time on a console), JRPGs (Xenoblade, Last Story, Pandora's Tower), a point & click adventure (Another Code R), plus more expected stuff like Smash Bros, Mario Kart, Mario sports games, Animal Crossing etc.
You mean to tell me that doesn't at least equate to what Nintendo did during the N64 days? Have you played all these games? If you're an "experienced" gamer, I'm sure you'd enjoy the challenge provided by games such as Sin & Punishment 2, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Punch-Out and Fire Emblem. I don't believe for a second that you've played these if you are serious about what you are saying and not just a troll.
Or is your point just that Rare is not developing games for Nintendo anymore? Because that's the only point you've got.
In my view, the Wii first-party line-up is by far the strongest since the SNES.
Hobbestetrician
Member
Coming from someone who loved the first-party line-up of both the N64 and Cube, this post is correct. It helps that I enjoy the Wii___ series for the most part.Rafaelcsa said:
Agent Unknown
Member
raziel said:
heh I wasn't taking anything hard. It's called irreverant satire.
witchedwiz
Member
wasn't that the line a kotaku editor wrote?DGRE said:
Oh, wait...
Rafaelcsa said:
I own all of the games mentioned in your second paragraph except Punchout.
BTW I wouldn't mention Xenoblade and Last Story, Another Code R and other games irrelevant to compliant North American Wii owners.
I can only speak of the demographic of which I'm a part; I make no claims about Europe or Japan.
Though *I* do own the very impressive Xenoblade, Nintendo HAS NO PLANS to publish it here and have built their console in such a way so as to prevent it from being played.
Thus my playing it is in defiance of Nintendo's plans; hardly a reason to praise them.
[The rest is not specially directed at the poster I quoted]
As I said, it is my estimation that Nintendo is a weaker publisher on the Wii than they were for N64.
If three Mario games made the Wii perfect for you, so be it. They could have made 10, I doubt I would have owned them all.
A solid library requires quality, variety, acceptable volume, among other things.
When I take an overall look at what Nintendo has published for me to play I see a regression from previous generations.
A sizeable portion of their Wii output is designed for previous non-players (Wii 'X').
There were also New Play remakes that would appeal more to those who hadn't played those games.
The rest simply does not cover as much ground as what they had published for previous consoles (esp. N64).
I am not getting into list meltdowns where people attempt to 'win' by showing how many quality Mario games Nintendo made
(or in other instances, how few to prove they're not milking Mario's barren teats).
Having owned Nintendo's latest consoles I have made my own qualitative assessment of the Nintendo-published portion of their libraries.
There are more who feel the way I do just as there are those who don't.
Nintendo has accomplished a demographic shift with the Wii just as they did with the N64.
However, this time Nintendo stimulated the shift and they've gained many more than they'll lose. Will they retain them?
What that'll mean for the future of their business is interesting to consider.
That was what this thread was about!
NeonZ
Member
Diffense said:
Aren't you applying a big double standard there? One of the only examples that you've mentioned regarding Nintendo's lacking output was the time it took for an exclusive true Zelda game for the Wii, compared to the Nintendo 64 getting two new Zeldas in the same timeframe. However, when people mention that they made more real Mario games than they made for the previous consoles, suddenly numbers don't matter and it's variety that's important?
In any case, if your main point is regarding Nintendo losing core fans and the transition to next gen, I don't see why you even went into "list wars" in the first place (and, yes, you basically did that considering your claims about their output), especially if you apparently don't want to talk about that.
Shin Johnpv
Member
Diffense said:
11/12 games out of 65 is not sizable. You've already been proven wrong on this, and IMHO at this point it feels like you're just trolling, or just sticking your head in the sand going LALALALALA I can't hear you LALALALALALA.
What you "feel" doesn't mean shit compared to numerical facts. You can feel that the sun is only 8 miles away and is really tiny, doesn't make it true.
NeonZ said:
I don't think there is a double standard.
My point was *not* that the N64 had two Zeldas but that the Wii hasn't had an exclusive Zelda yet (TP-Wii is a port and I only own the GC game).
I considered it more shocking due to the fact that N64 had two exclusive Zeldas in a shorter timeframe.
It wasn't a "two Zeldas better than one" position though I suspected it would be read that way!
The N64 launched with a ground-breaking, exclusive, new Mario so I think Nintendo had things pretty well covered.
Just some questionable hardware decisions ruined partners relations and danaged the N64's competitiveness.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
If they start with "Wii" or are similar to that range of titles as your previous post suggested?Diffense said:
That's pretty factual even if your interpretation of what they are or aren't is skewed and contradictory to his.
In the end, regardless of your and his opinion of these games, it's still the vast minority of Nintendo's Wii output, contrary to your claims. Therefor:
Fixed, and yes, it was obvious you were just going to do that from the very beginning.
AbsoluteZero
Banned
Diffense said:
I'd love to know which Wii games you believe are for non-players.
Diffense said:
It was a good read until I read this. Kinect sold like gangbusters out of the gate. Evidence (in the form of software sales) point to a complete petering off of the device. Software support is worse than the 3DS, as well. I wouldn't call Kinect a resounding success just yet - the jury is still out. "Meanwhile" there are still like 90 million Wiis out there.
Make a good game, market it, and it will sell. It's a stupidly simple strategy that works in *most* cases. Show me evidence of your argument.
No, it screams that Nintendo had its finger in every pie this generation, and were successful on all fronts aside from huge online featuresets and third party support, neither of which materialized on the Wii. Everything else did.
dragonfart28
Banned
Diffense said:
Nintendo started E3 2011 with an admission that they have to do things to cater to "U".
It's only Nintendo fans that run around thinking Wii is perfect for everybody.
Even Nintendo knows better.
When you're arguing against the position of the console maker, you're definitely missing the "abundantly obvious".
It's only Nintendo fans that run around thinking Wii is perfect for everybody.
Even Nintendo knows better.
When you're arguing against the position of the console maker, you're definitely missing the "abundantly obvious".
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Straw man arguments ad nausem, that's all you can do, isn't it? Nobody said Wii is perfect for everybody (please quote that if someone did, I might have missed it), they just disputed your nonsensical statements about what the majority of Nintendo's output was on it, and how that compared to past systems, among other things.Diffense said:
I guess it was about time you pulled the fanboy card though, lol.
Alextended said:
Their gamer-focused library on N64 outclasses that on Wii.
Nintendo has alienated certain demographics on Wii because of how their resources were allocated.
Nintendo itself has admitted that they have to increase their appeal to certain segments and wants to address this with Wii U.
I'm not sure what's in the above that Nintendo fans want so desperately to 'disprove'.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
No. Your list wars proved that much despite your constantly moving goal posts. Also, that's a different argument to your "majority" statements, also proven wrong.Diffense said:
Maybe. They certainly alienated you. That doesn't reinforce your first line.
And? Increasing their appeal to certain segments doesn't also mean bringing them "up" to N64 levels or that the majority of their Wii output was Wii ___ type stuff.
I'm still waiting for a quote of the raging fanboy that said Wii is perfect for everyone.
Alextended said:
I didn't create any list wars; that as the doing of other posters.
The Wii's issues with traditional or 'hardcore' gamers are well known.
It has been snubbed by a number of third party franchises.
Third parties do not believe the demographic for them exists on Wii.
The feedback has resulted in the demogaphic not being built at all.
The genesis of all this is the table Nintendo spread with Wii's extreme casual focus at launch and beyond.
The way they allocated resources and paced things hurt them outside of the "new" market they were creating.
These are things we know very well. Is it offensive to articulate them?
Anyway, it was fun but I have no more time to waste!
Nintendo has a lot of work to do to break the Sony/MS stranglehold on the traditional amrket while bringing along their "new" market.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
You mentioned numbers and statistics, the only way to prove either way was to make a list so yes, you caused them, and then ignored the results to boot.
Yes, but they don't exactly reflect your claims.Diffense said:
Yes.
Some did.
At all is a stretch.
False. The genesis of all this is the traditionally bad relations Nintendo has had with third parties for over a decade.
Yes. The Wii had good years with plenty great releases, but it also had bad years. Much like past Nintendo systems.
That says nothing about your quantity based claims either way.
No, but your initial arguments weren't remotely close to these down to earth and potentially valid statements (which aren't all proven as you want to think) and were instead completely batshit insane points about what the majority of Nintendo's output has been on Wii and how that, in quantity, compares to their past systems. Nice backpedal though.
Oh no, I was really looking forward to that quote of the raging fanboy who said Wii is perfect for everyone
H_Prestige
Banned
And I'll agree with him. Nintendo has shown the last several years that they don't give a fuck about hardware and having a robust OS and online network. They're good at making fun games, but they are seriously limited by their own consoles. The games on the Wii people like to champion can and should have been much better.freddy said:
If they ever went third party, I'd consider that a win/win for everyone. I see absolutely no negatives in this situation, only positives. Then again, I don't have an irrational love affair with these companies.
H_Prestige said:
Sure you don't. None of us do. lol
There are plenty of good reasons why console makers should continue making their own hardware, and Chris Kohler wrote up a great article recently on that very matter.
I wish there were more hardware makers. Like Sega.
As far as games that people like to champion on the Wii that *should* have been much better... which games are you referring to? Because while I was playing Xenoblade the other day, I was far too engrossed in its enormous world to question why it was on Wii and not 360.
Stronger hardware and more online features might have benefitted some games, but lack of IR Pointer would've made others decidedly worse.H_Prestige said:
If Nintendo hadn't created hardware, we would've had to wait for other companies to introduce* things like the d-pad, the analog stick and the pointer, which at best would've taken longer and at worst never happen at all.H_Prestige said:
Nintendo typically designs hardware with specific game concepts in mind, and if they lacked this freedom and instead had to conform to hardware designed by others I think they would be more limited. You don't necessarily have to agree, I'm just explaining how this standpoint doesn't require "an irrational love affair with these companies".
(*Note that I'm not talking about inventing the technology, but actually implementing it in a big way and making it the standard for the future.)
AbsoluteZero
Banned
So many avatar-less posts...
Aaron Strife
Banned
If we're talking N64 vs. Wii as far as "core game" output, I'd say Wii has N64 beat by a country mile. The only thing that puts N64 in contention is Rare's output, but also I think there's a nostalgia angle at work - a lot of us were much younger when the N64 was out, and could make due with a new Mario or Zelda every six months or so. Because that was all we played. I can now beat Mario 64 in less than a week, but my first time through took me at least five years.
Wii has had the Galaxy games, NSMBWii, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Metroid Prime 3, Smash Bros., Mario Kart, Punch-Out!, Excitebots, S&P2, Xenoblade, Last Story etc. and we're getting Kirby and Zelda later this year. Obviously third party support in general is shit, but No More Heroes, Monster Hunter Tri, Muramasa, Sonic Colors, Goldeneye, Epic Mickey have all been solid efforts, with DQX on the way. It's a huge improvement over N64 and GCN.
Point is, I don't think anyone who stuck around on N64/GCN because of Nintendo's first-party lineup has anything to be disappointed about on Wii. The whole three-months-between-games thing has kind of become standard for Nintendo systems which totally sucks but it's something that gamers have dealt with for 3 gens now.
And yeah, Nintendo probably should've beefed up the console a bit more for third parties. Whatever. Hindsight.
Wii has had the Galaxy games, NSMBWii, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Metroid Prime 3, Smash Bros., Mario Kart, Punch-Out!, Excitebots, S&P2, Xenoblade, Last Story etc. and we're getting Kirby and Zelda later this year. Obviously third party support in general is shit, but No More Heroes, Monster Hunter Tri, Muramasa, Sonic Colors, Goldeneye, Epic Mickey have all been solid efforts, with DQX on the way. It's a huge improvement over N64 and GCN.
Point is, I don't think anyone who stuck around on N64/GCN because of Nintendo's first-party lineup has anything to be disappointed about on Wii. The whole three-months-between-games thing has kind of become standard for Nintendo systems which totally sucks but it's something that gamers have dealt with for 3 gens now.
And yeah, Nintendo probably should've beefed up the console a bit more for third parties. Whatever. Hindsight.
Aaron Strife said:
Five years to beat Mario? Sure, took me longer as a kid....but 4-5 months tops.
I think you are forgetting some of the big N64 titles. Blast Corps, Waverace, Perfect Dark, Goldeneye, Jet Force Gemini, Banjo, Conker, Excitebike, 1080 snowboarding, F-Zero X.
Not to mention, N64's titles used ground-breaking technology. Every game pushed the envelope in some form.
I'd say "core game" output is an argument between N64 and GCN. Wii is a distant third in my sad, humble, opinion. Doesn't mean I didn't have fun with Wii Sports, but this is the first generation where a secondary console (PS3/360) was almost required.
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