Go tell that to someone who has had half their intestines removed because their mother gave into the convenience of using formula instead of breastfeeding him/her.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Venezuela considers taking bottles from babies' mouths
- Thread starter Ripclawe
- Start date
- Status
Go tell that to someone who has had half their intestines removed because their mother gave into the convenience of using formula instead of breastfeeding him/her.
Not to sound like a dick, but a ban on formula must stand on something more solid than a single case. Besides, formula is a generic name for different things. They change over time and must be improved.
A single case?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
As determined by the health minister? lol fuck that.
Karsticles
Member
Taking away a woman's freedom of choice, or preventing people from malnourishing their babies?
Devolution
Member
Not everyone can breast feed for a myriad of reasons. Or they want to stop. This sets a terrible precedent and they don't even say for how long people have to wean.
Half and half
Member
I think it's also important to consider that breastfeeding at all hours of morning and night can be difficult for full-time working mothers. Formula allows the dad to bear some of this burden as well. Generous time off policies can help, but some women need/want to have flexibility with their options.
Plus, breastfeeding isn't always this wonderfully pleasant experience for the mother. It can be quite painful for some women.
Plus, breastfeeding isn't always this wonderfully pleasant experience for the mother. It can be quite painful for some women.
If a woman can't breastfeed, she should go back to the hospital and request breast milk. They have milk banks that are regulated. They check for HIV and other infections.
Breast milk is very important.
Squirrel Killer
Member
Go tell that to the dead babies whose families couldn't afford a wet nurse before formula was invented.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Eh, people can survive just fine without it.
That doesn't really apply to me. I wouldn't have made an argument against formula before it was invented.
So your argument is that modern formula leads to a significant percentage of children having "half of their intestines" removed? Do you have any facts to back up such a claim. I know many young mothers, including my wife, whose children would not breast feed well, developed mastitis or did not produce as much a they would like. They all knew breast milk was preferable, but it was not always a realistic option.
With my daughter my wife pumped several times a day, but did not produce enough so we had to supplement with formula. Were we too part of one of the "greatest evils perpetuated against mankind?"?
Also, if the logic is that breast milk is more nutritious (no argument there) therefore substitutes are evil, then wouldn't the same apply to foods for adults that are unhealthy. Lemonade, steak, bread and burgers would also be "evil" as there are better options.
No one is advocating for the restoration of formula companies advertising in a heavy handed way or trying to say that formula is better than breast milk, but some of the arguments against formula in this thread seem so over-stated.
reptilescorpio
Member
Link?
Squirrel Killer
Member
Well then, you can just tell the dead babies once you succeed in banning, how did you put it? ...oh yeah, "One of the greatest evils perpetrated against mankind."
Apparently, yes. And your daughter would be better off dead. Just like my daughter and two sons.
Do you know what autoimmune diseases are?
Breastmilk contains more than just nutrition. It has specific antigens and immune components that help the baby's immune system develop properly.
Your wife wasn't able to breastfeed? That sucks. Go to a doctor and ask them how to acquire safe breastmilk.
Being unable to provide breastmilk is a lot like being unable to financially support your children. It affects the long term health of the baby when they're not properly breast fed.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12592775
I wish that link sent you to a full article, but it does give a gist.
Why do you think men in general prefer women with large breasts? Although it's not always accurate, it's a signal of fertility and an indicator that the mother will be able to provide enough milk for her child.
Tons of people who haven't been breastfed will go on to live very normal lives without any autoimmune health problems, but statistically speaking, people who haven't been breastfeed have an increased chance of developing an autoimmune issue. Sometimes it's something very mild, like an allergy to some unimportant food. But there have been babies who weren't breastfed that develop fatal allergies to eggs, nuts, and milk.
Others develop Juvenile diabetes. Or rheumatoid arthritis, or Crohn's disease. That's the one where your immune system mistakenly attack intestinal tissue until it scars up and blocks the passage and you have to get the diseased portions removed.
You should have gone to a doctor and seen what you could have done to acquire breast milk from a milk bank.
Squirrel Killer
Member
You heard the man, kmfdmpig, you and I are basically deadbeat parents and child abusers.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/5/1342.short
If your wife was incapable of breastfeeding, may I ask why you went on to have three children? I know it sounds rude, but if you're not able to support your baby nutritionally then why continue to have more?
As for your dead babies comment, I keep saying that there are breast milk banks but that doesn't seem to register.
I hope the police are watching all the baby stores and taking names of every enfamil and similac buyer.
I think we all know that breast milk is superior, bombadil, and my daughter received well over half of her intake from breast milk. In the real world, however, the ideals of "only do breast milk" do not always work. Options are good, arbitrary laws that limit those options, even if well intentioned are not. Everyone I knew that either used formula or supplemented with formula had planned on using breast milk only and for various reasons it did not work for them or their children.
I'm in Venezuela, this is just an absurd way to decrease the criticism about the shortage of something important like formula. Next up: empanadas, hallacas and arepas (traditional food made with the now hard to find "Harina P.A.N.") to become illegal food because they're making the population too fat. Bidets mandatory in every house and business, toilet paper use to become illegal to decrease the amount of garbage disposal.
GoldenEye 007
Member
lol you have to be trollin.
Squirrel Killer
Member
Well, we were kinda screwed on the first one because we had it before we knew any better. We went on to have two more kids because the first thrived on formula and we were able to otherwise provide a healthy and nurturing environment for them despite not being able to afford banked milk.
I don't mean this to be rude, but given your stance I don't really mind if it is... how many kids do you have?
How do milk banks cope with shortages? (Note how their front page mentions their "acute" shortages.) How do poor people going to pay for banked milk? (It's more expensive than formula.) How many of those breast milk banks are in the developing world?
Breast milk is unquestionably better than formula and there are noted disadvantages to formula, but repeating "MILK BANKS!" cures the problem of getting breast milk to every infant about as well as Republicans repeating "CHARITIES!" cures poverty.
reptilescorpio
Member
Don't get worked up by Bombadil dude, this is his persona.
I don't have kids. And I won't have kids unless I know I can support them in every way possible, including making sure they get what they need when they need it and making sure that the genes I pass on to them will make them healthy people.
If poor people cannot afford to give their children what they need, and if no resource exists to provide aid, then they shouldn't have kids. End of story. If that sounds harsh, I'm sorry. But that's how it should be. We're not running out people, that's for damn sure. We're accumulating an abundance of people who are chronically ill because they cannot sustain themselves or their parents couldn't sustain them. It's a problem that needs to be addressed and I am happy to give money to causes to help this.
Milk bank shortages need to be addressed, but one has to wonder who are all these new mothers that cannot produce enough milk.
Yes, those are the only viable choices.
Bombandil, what an ignorant absolutist ass you are.
User 100115
Banned
I can't imagine how much that would cost. Seriously, that's kind of insane.
I was only able to breastfeed one of my children. I have three. This doesn't make me a horrible person or a horrible mother. Oh, and the one I did breastfeed is the one with an autoimmune disease, interestingly enough (vitiligo). And yet I would still get flack for not doing it, even though for the second I developed a nasty infection that tainted the milk, and for the third I was in a different state recovering from almost dying after her birth. I was determined to try, tried to keep pumping in the hospital, (that didn't work because I was so weak and they told me to stop) and teaching her to feed on a bottle was hard enough for the other hospital (learning to feed is one of the biggest problems a premie has)
Banning formula and bottles is stupid as hell. Yes, people should be educated that breastmilk is the best, but shit happens, and it's not always feasible.
User 100115
Banned
Yeah, I lived that. It's horrible. In the area I am from it's not that big of a deal, but good lord, you mention to others or online that you weren't able to breastfeed and it's like admitting that you beat your child bloody everyday. It's ridiculous.
This is outdated information. There is actually no consensus re: allergies and breastfeeding. Some newer research even suggests that breastfeeding might actually increase the risk of allergies, but so far it seems to be inconclusive (or to be more cynical, perhaps we don't want to make a big deal about it yet because it'd go against the intent of the 'breast is best' campaign)
CornBurrito
Member
How much does that cost in the US?
Up to 1200 dollars a month.
I think one can oppose a ridiculous measure like banning baby formula while still being upset at the dishonest marketing practices used by some companies that manufacture baby formula.
CornBurrito
Member
So theoretically if a person who could afford to breast feed, but could not afford to pay for this breast milk service had a child and found that she could not breast feed what would you have her do?
So she's able to afford to breast feed but is not able to breast feed? I don't know what you're saying. How is one able to afford to breast feed?
CornBurrito
Member
Sorry if it was unclear. Perhaps this will help.
When she got pregnant she was planning on feeding the child with HER breast milk for a grand total of 0 dollars.
Now she gets pregnant and finds out she wont make enough breast milk to feed the child. She can't afford 1200 a month on top of all the other expenses. What should she do?
She shouldn't have assumed that she would produce enough breast milk, considering how common it is for women to underproduce.
In the same fashion, you should never assume that everything will work itself out financially before having a child. You should plan for things. Plan for things to go wrong.
But, a solution to this problem would be that the woman could try and get financial aid from a charitable organization. When I went to the ER at a private hospital, a doctor saw me for three minutes and the total charge came out to be 2500 bucks. I couldn't afford it. A charity working with the hospital footed most of the bill.
I personally believe the government should subsidize the cost of the breast milk. That's my view as a liberal. Charities don't really cut it.
Venezuela shouldn't enact this ban until they can ensure that they can provide breast milk to everyone in the country at a reasonable price.
At the same time, the companies that produce formula should study breast milk and figure out how to duplicate all of its positive components.
Anyway, 1200 bucks was the max cost of the breast milk. It ranges from 300 a month to 1200.
Squirrel Killer
Member
They're the same ones whose babies died of malnutrition before formula was invented.
And where would all of this milk come from if we eliminate formula? Women aren't cattle. Supply will never meet demand. The reason Breast Milk is so expensive is because not many women are willing to donate their milk.
Squirrel Killer
Member
Women who produce an abundance of milk can be paid money to sell their milk to milk banks.
CornBurrito
Member
Yes they can be paid money to sell their milk. That doesn't mean they will.
Half and half
Member
So according to this thread, getting breast milk from a bank is not always available, affordable, or reliable. Therefore, it's not an alternative to formula.
My wife had trouble breast feeding immediately after my child was born. and it is a VERY common occurrence. And guess what you feed the babies instead? I am sorry if that's not emergency enough for you. Maybe I should just make them miserable and have a starving screaming baby.
Okay.
All I know is that formula doesn't cut it for now.
In the future, when they figure things out better and create formula that is as good as breastmilk, then everything will be better. If at all possible, I want women to try and get breast milk for their babies for a year. If not, obviously you have to feed them formula. My criticism applies only to those women who were able to produce enough milk but chose formula out of convenience.
Squirrel Killer
Member
Not through milk banks, they can't.
- Mother's Milk Bank of New England: "Donors are not paid for their milk."
- Massachuesstees Breastfeeding Coalition: "Milk is given voluntarily to HMBANA milk banks by donors."
- San Jose Milk Bank: "Are donors paid for their milk? No. All donors to the Mothers' Milk Bank are volunteers."
- Mother's Milk Bank of North Texas: "Are mothers compensated for donating their excess breastmilk? Donors do not receive any payment for their donations."
- Mother's Milk Bank at Austin: "Are milk donors paid? No. Milk donors are volunteers who donate to help save fragile infants. It is your voluntary contribution to the health of the next generation."
- WakeMed Mothers' Milk Bank: "Milk is donated to the WakeMed Mothers' Milk Bank, and donors are never paid."
- WhatToExpect.com article on milk banks: "...nursing moms donate their milk for free..."
- Calgary Mothers Milk Bank: "Are donors paid for their milk? No. All milk donors are volunteers and are not financially compensated for donating their milk."
- Human Milk Banking Association of South African: "Donor milk is milk given voluntarily, without pay, by healthy lactating mothers for vulnerable infants."
I'm not even including the banks that have "milk donors are remarkable women, who give a generous and much needed gift" statements that make it obvious donors aren't getting paid.
You're probably talking about some of the online milk sharing sites, which the FDA recommends against:
FDA said:
What's more, the European Milk Bank Association says commercializing milk banks is unethical.
(Note: the reimbursement they're talking about is to the recipient mother, not the donating mother.)EMBA said:
I'm a dude and even I know:
- some women can't breastfeed
- some babies can't handle breastmilk
This stupid law is just about literally throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The shaming of women who don't breastfeed needs to stop.
- Status