SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Hacking is never the major problem with an online fighting game on any platform. The problem is finding enough local players at your skill level. The lack of cross play only makes that problem worse.
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Tekken 7's Harada: Cross Play Unlikely (cites First Party Policies and PC Hacks)
- Thread starter AAK
- Start date
That perceived reputation sounds like a cop out. Likely Sony is the hold up based on previous info relating to this title.
And just because MS are open to the idea of cross play doesn't mean every game is going to be approved for it because of there are policies and requirements that have to be met I.e FFXV/DC universe online not being able to implement it ATM.
And just because MS are open to the idea of cross play doesn't mean every game is going to be approved for it because of there are policies and requirements that have to be met I.e FFXV/DC universe online not being able to implement it ATM.
I'm sure sony would support PS4 and PC cross play. They just arent interested in XB at all being in the mix. They've never had to care about XB1 servers being dependent on platform play, so i can see why they would not be keen on it now.
With that being said, Harada should be honest about the reason instead of blaming PC users with weaksauce
As usual, it would be a good idea let Harada and Murray know that you really want this and not just complain on GAF and call it a day:
https://twitter.com/Harada_TEKKEN
https://twitter.com/mykeryu
https://twitter.com/Harada_TEKKEN
https://twitter.com/mykeryu
copelandmaster
Member
Y'know, saying 'welp, ps4 it is then ;^( ' is a self fulfilling prophecy. Chicken littling at minimum 6 months in advance is a bit premature.
SF4 sold quite well. Not nearly as much as the console version, but way more than enough to support a healthy player base.
SF5 had 50k pc players in the last 2 weeks.
For the past 2 months I've been knee deep in both T6 and Tag 2's online (PS3). After all of this time, both have an active player base (Tag 2 is way better though, due to being the newer game with better netcode). While you definately get repeats in tag 2, you get someone unique at least every other fight on average. Heck, the xbox live playerbase probably got a bit of a shot in the arm thanks to Tag 2 becoming a backwards compatible game.
All versions will be fine without crossplay.
Still, Harada's reasoning mentioning cheater perception is irritating. Aren't you trying to sell a whole new audience a game, Harada? Good start. Tekken Revolution on PS3 is of course a hack free game.
"B-but uneven playing field tho!!!" is even more irritating.
Leaderboards don't matter for Tekken. Tekken uses a tiered ranking system based on skill. You can be a Tekken God. So can cheaters. Nobody will know who is the exact #1.
Cheating their way to costumes? How does that affect you? How does that affect the game balance? Customs in Tekken that do affect gameplay are so laughable in terms of speed, damage, and range its not even funny. All can be easily sidestepped, back stepped away from, or ducked. Not to mention most of the popular ones were all unlocked from the start in Tag 2 (perhaps all of them are, don't remember myself).
Vsync/8f? People on pc play with Vsync off and on together all the time and they're fine. SF4 lets you turn vsync off and on and fight people with $400 college laptops or water cooled titans who can do the same. Your skill, your input method, and your monitor/tv matter just as much. You'll be fine. Plus, we won't know if Tekken 7 will have a laughably stupid implementation of Vsyc+intentional lag like SF5 until the game launches.
SF4 sold quite well. Not nearly as much as the console version, but way more than enough to support a healthy player base.
SF5 had 50k pc players in the last 2 weeks.
For the past 2 months I've been knee deep in both T6 and Tag 2's online (PS3). After all of this time, both have an active player base (Tag 2 is way better though, due to being the newer game with better netcode). While you definately get repeats in tag 2, you get someone unique at least every other fight on average. Heck, the xbox live playerbase probably got a bit of a shot in the arm thanks to Tag 2 becoming a backwards compatible game.
All versions will be fine without crossplay.
Still, Harada's reasoning mentioning cheater perception is irritating. Aren't you trying to sell a whole new audience a game, Harada? Good start. Tekken Revolution on PS3 is of course a hack free game.
"B-but uneven playing field tho!!!" is even more irritating.
Leaderboards don't matter for Tekken. Tekken uses a tiered ranking system based on skill. You can be a Tekken God. So can cheaters. Nobody will know who is the exact #1.
Cheating their way to costumes? How does that affect you? How does that affect the game balance? Customs in Tekken that do affect gameplay are so laughable in terms of speed, damage, and range its not even funny. All can be easily sidestepped, back stepped away from, or ducked. Not to mention most of the popular ones were all unlocked from the start in Tag 2 (perhaps all of them are, don't remember myself).
Vsync/8f? People on pc play with Vsync off and on together all the time and they're fine. SF4 lets you turn vsync off and on and fight people with $400 college laptops or water cooled titans who can do the same. Your skill, your input method, and your monitor/tv matter just as much. You'll be fine. Plus, we won't know if Tekken 7 will have a laughably stupid implementation of Vsyc+intentional lag like SF5 until the game launches.
Teknopathetic
Member
"SF5 had 50k pc players in the last 2 weeks."
SF5 has crossplay.
SF5 has crossplay.
copelandmaster
Member
Ultra Street Fighter 4 does not have cross play and is an older game (with its own number of obsolete versions on 360, PS3, PS4, and PC).
24k in the last 2 weeks.
Teknopathetic
Member
SF4's also been on sale for 9 years, many of those years as low as like 5$ dollars? I suppose it's possible that after 9 years Tekken will reach those heights.
Also, unique players over 2 weeks is a *really* worthless statistic. Someone logging on for 10 minutes to play arcade mode for shiggles counts as a "unique" player. What matters more is concurrent online players.
Also, unique players over 2 weeks is a *really* worthless statistic. Someone logging on for 10 minutes to play arcade mode for shiggles counts as a "unique" player. What matters more is concurrent online players.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Oh well I'll be on PS4 so no worries for population.
copelandmaster
Member
Agreed.
It may be on hearsay from my current experience on PSN and not Steam or XBL, but Tekken seems to have a long tail and has been decently popular.
International pc vs console demographics could be a factor. In some countries, a PC version is easier and cheaper to obtain, in others the PS4 and Xbox One version.
What I'm saying is that declaring doomsday for the online and spreading FUD about 'PC hacking and uneven playing fields' before the game even launches for the first time on a new platform is unreasonable and un-helpful.
It may be on hearsay from my current experience on PSN and not Steam or XBL, but Tekken seems to have a long tail and has been decently popular.
International pc vs console demographics could be a factor. In some countries, a PC version is easier and cheaper to obtain, in others the PS4 and Xbox One version.
What I'm saying is that declaring doomsday for the online and spreading FUD about 'PC hacking and uneven playing fields' before the game even launches for the first time on a new platform is unreasonable and un-helpful.
You got the right idea.
Teknopathetic
Member
"What I'm saying is that declaring doomsday before the game even launches for the first time on a new platform is unreasonable and un-helpful."
There is no reason to downplay the fact that this news will absolutely dissuade people from buying on PC when they otherwise would. It's also important to note that Street Fighter is...Street Fighter. Though I consider myself more at home with 3D fighting games with 2D ones, I cannot bring myself to think that Tekken will replicate the success of Street Fighter 4 on PC.
And I mean let's look at that statement: Replicating the success of Street Fighter 4. It's a different market now than when SF4 (and even the subsequent editions) were released and people have different expectations. Between SF5, Killer Instinct, and Rocket League PC gamers aren't going to be as willing to accept the lack of cross-platform multiplayer like they did even as recent as 2014.
There is no reason to downplay the fact that this news will absolutely dissuade people from buying on PC when they otherwise would. It's also important to note that Street Fighter is...Street Fighter. Though I consider myself more at home with 3D fighting games with 2D ones, I cannot bring myself to think that Tekken will replicate the success of Street Fighter 4 on PC.
And I mean let's look at that statement: Replicating the success of Street Fighter 4. It's a different market now than when SF4 (and even the subsequent editions) were released and people have different expectations. Between SF5, Killer Instinct, and Rocket League PC gamers aren't going to be as willing to accept the lack of cross-platform multiplayer like they did even as recent as 2014.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Yeah, at launch. PC games have a longer tail, despite the lower launch numbers. All it takes is a Steam sale to boost the population.
GhostTrick
Banned
It's not reaching. It's a direct answer to his claims about advantages on PC because of "cheats". Getting content with no efforts ? Season pass. Having a lower input lag ? Playing on a low input lag monitor and/or with a fighting stick with wired controls. And macros/scripted bots are also a thing on PS4.
point is: There's no environnement where online play will be equal for everyone.
Definitely not the case for all games. And Tekken 7 is going to be propped up by the console release for years to come
More like Tekken 7 is going to be propped up by arcades until Tekken 8 comes out.
Tag 2 was feature rich, great netplay, completely free gameplay affecting dlc with no f2p mindset, and actually worth it pay dlc (complete Tekken series music and endings for convenience). But gamers rejected it and went to SF4 and MK instead.
Anyway I have a good hunch that Bamco fears their lootbox eer Lotto ticket system will be exploited and robbed like capcom's premium SFV dlc.
If Bamco really was serious about cheating online they would have done something about Tekken Revolution.
What i mean is, that official competitive events will be PS4 by default, which will keep the competitive player base on there.
I remember SF4 on PC wasn't very successful? To the point it skipped expansions.
Augemitbutter
Member
he was rank 1 for a while. last i checked he was top 20 a few days ago. pretty sure he even hijacked the name of a top player and is manipulating his win streaks. they never break. there are a few other bots.
If you're talking about Japan, Korea and the Global Championship which is in Japan, I figure those will stick to the arcade version.
Also Tekken-Net is completely separate from console, one of the big draws for the winner of the Global Championship is getting exclusive Champion customizations that only they get.
For example Nobi as last year's winner is the only player in the world to have the Champion panel, health bar and auras.
And iirc PS3 Tag 2 didn't replace arcade Tag 2 Unlimited in Japan and Korea.
Jaded Alyx
Member
SF4 arrived late and PC didn't receive Super Street Fighter IV. Instead, later on, PC got Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition, and then Ultra Street Fighter IV.
Only one was skipped.
Incorrect.
i doubt people buying a game like this during a steam sale will be in it for the long haul.
Teknopathetic
Member
"I remember SF4 on PC wasn't very successful? To the point it skipped expansions."
5$ sales will do a lot to change that.
5$ sales will do a lot to change that.
CrazedProfessional
Member
sFV has been hacked to the brim here. I'm in Australian and consistently get matched with other Australians and the Asian countries north of us and those guys have a range of hacks including unlimited hp, autoblock, unlimited super meter and the one time I ran into a zangief with unlimited health and a spin animation that never ended so he would just slowly move towards me.
It's pretty shit I have no issues with KI or Guilty Gear on PC though. Just SFV
It's pretty shit I have no issues with KI or Guilty Gear on PC though. Just SFV
thelastword
Banned
It's obvious that not everybody cheats on PC, or are looking to gain an unfair advantage like alt-tabbing, but it's incredibly easy to cheat or gain an advantage on PC by doing very basic things like what I just mentioned, or perhaps download a little cheat patch/exploit that circumvents normal and fair play.
I do play with PC guys on SFV, but the most suspicious and worse matches I've had are against PC players, still that does not deter me because I'd like to get as many matches in when I play, but PC players don't make it easier for persons to quell those accusations. Most fighting games have a smaller community on PC and yet there are more issues there. Perhaps it's on Capcom and Namco to try to normalize or make the playing field as even/fair as possible across the the platforms, but on PC, it's so easy to break any barriers Namco would set, since the platform is open.
If capcom allows console players to see the quality of PC's we're playing against or perhaps automatically enable vsync when a PC player gets a match or perhaps prevent alt-tab when a player is in match, that can probably help, but that's just too many darn checks at the end of the day, and there will always be another loophole or a way for a pc player to circumvent even those.
Like hacking leaderboards?, hacking content. People say why do you care, how does that affect you, but it does, hacking content affects the bottomline of the developers which are giving us these games, I want these games and content to keep on coming... It's also a nuisance for persons who just want to have some fair competition and see how they stack online in a non-cheating environment. You're robbing them of that satisfaction when you hack leaderboards and that too is part of the game they bought.
USF4 had better a better system to detect or reject who you would play against. The thing about USF4 on steam is that it was in a bad state for so long that Capcom just moved on. So they didn't do too much in the way maintenance and regulation. Also USF4 had no cross play...
As for what you said on reporting cheaters through vids, that was and is still being done in SFV, just that the automated system makes it easier to weed them out.
Yes, I played the smokes out of Tekken Revlution, btw I grew up on Tekken more than SF, but I have gravitated to SF much more since SF4.
I do think what you mentioned on controller, screens, (especially audio) is a big stretch....We're not talking about your equipment, we're talking about people who cheat and hack games to get points, post their names on leaderboards, get costumes and content through shady and nefarious means. In 2016, every basic tv has a game mode. Whatever lag one tv has against another or input lag on his controller, affects your ability to compete much less than a guy who plays SFV with a 30fps machine or a guy alt- tabbing and getting other exploits on or irregularities.
So perhaps PC guys should embark to change that perception themselves....crossplay can be a good thing, but there's a lot of extra effort needed to make it work properly or keep it in check.
Chronus max are banned in most tournaments, people use them to cheat, but it's easy to detect and ban these guys. There are so many more methods to cheat on PC, hence why it's more prevalent and that is the bigger issue. For e.g no PS4 player is cheating survival or getting costumes, chars etc.. through cheating.
Sales on consoles are also a thing, a longer tail is not synonymous with PC. Most times, people buy a game in a sale or in a humble bundle and never touch or just boot it to check out the first 5 mins. I know I have so many games untouched on PC garnered through sales. Best thing to check is where the active player base is really at.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Anybody honestly still expecting XB1/PS4 to have crossplay is intensely deluded.
I wish Sony/Microsoft would drop the PR friendly "Oooooh maybe, depends" PR crap and just be honest. "They're our competitors. Everything we do is to get people NOT to play on their thing. Of course you can't play with them on their thing. Jeeeesus christ."
I wish Sony/Microsoft would drop the PR friendly "Oooooh maybe, depends" PR crap and just be honest. "They're our competitors. Everything we do is to get people NOT to play on their thing. Of course you can't play with them on their thing. Jeeeesus christ."
In his defense what he said was "the community perceived reputation of PC gamers being cheaters" not so much that they actually are cheaters. I do expect Sony v. MS is actually what's making it hard though.
I never had a problem finding matches in SF4 PC all the way from launch until SFV came out. It had a very active community.
That said Tekken is obviously more of a question mark.
I never had a problem finding matches in SF4 PC all the way from launch until SFV came out. It had a very active community.
That said Tekken is obviously more of a question mark.
I meant prod him on twitter until he makes cross play happen.
pretty done
Member
Yea, aside from Street Fighter I can't recall one fighting game on PC that wasn't a disaster (either because of port issues or just no community)
GhostTrick
Banned
In tournaments. The same way cheats would be banned on PC in any tournaments. There's so many more ways yet, it's something you rarely see.
LordRaptor
Member
PC cheats are also banned in tournaments, where the fuck are you going with this argument?
You have as much knowledge that you are playing online against someone on a PS4 or X1 using a Chronus Max as you do that you are playing against a PC user using a macro.
Solrac
Member
a friend of mine told me that he had to stop playing the division on pc because was full of hackers...and now the game is dead ( pc ), im sure that if activision released desitny on pc would have end alike.
i play alot on my pc, and my favorites online games are on pc ( jk3, ro, d2 ) but we have to agree that is so easy too mod,crack,hack,
i play alot on my pc, and my favorites online games are on pc ( jk3, ro, d2 ) but we have to agree that is so easy too mod,crack,hack,
GhostTrick
Banned
No, it wouldn't have. The Division is an exception, this is because the way netcode was handled. Destiny netcode works with player informations stored on Activision servers. The Division's netcode works with player informations stored locally on the player machine. The day XB1/PS4 are hacked, people will be able to cheat easily on this game.
Dunno, but some people still play Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection Online on PS3, which was released in 2007.
Cheating in a shooter and cheating in a fighting game arent even comparable. The only cheating that goes on in sfv were toolassisted, rage quitting to keep points, and probably lag switching.
One of those is an extreme outlier and the other two are a fighting game issue. Ive played so many hours of fighting games and have never run into anything comparable to what happens in counter strike. At worst some guy used turbo on me. Which is blatantly obvious and doesnt really have the same effect.
The anti cheat measures capcom implemented are only in place to prevent the survival mod and other dumb stuff like using a dlc character online before its out.
Real hard cheating in fighting games are extremely rare, and blaming pc for these issues is a bit ignorant.
If the PC was the poor environment for networked multiplayer games that a contingent of GAF makes it out to be, it wouldn't be what is easily the best platform for both quality and variety of multiplayer experiences, and the platform that almost single handedly drives the popularity of major esports titles. The problem isn't the platform, the problem is the inexperience and poor execution on the part of relative newcomers like Capcom and soon possibly Namco.
For example, in Street Fighter V's case, 99% of the exploits around fight money would be addressed by some basic logic checks done when the server is contacted to collect rewards. The real solution, however, would have been for Capcom to fully think through their business model. They designed a game that is heavily oriented around 1 vs 1 multiplayer, but the most efficient way to obtain currency was in a single player only mode that exists as little more than a massive timesink with heavy RNG elements. It is blatantly obvious to anyone that this is horrible design for a game that wants you engaged in multiplayer most of the time.
As for players modding in premium costumes etc, games like DOTA2 completely allow this, yet have a way more successful market for cosmetics than Street Fighter. DOTA is successfully selling £25+ cosmetics despite the ability of players to modify character models. The difference is the gulf in the perception of value between DOTA cosmetics and SF cosmetics - DOTA treats cosmetics as digital inventory items, with trade/resale value, and cosmetics often have a number of value-adding features that a modded item lacks. SF premium cosmetics, however, are generally relatively highly priced yet don't offer any additional value in of themselves (i.e. they are treated no differently than any other costume slot in the game). In this way they are prime targets for someone to just mod the default costume to the players preferred premium costume.
Long story short, Capcom (and now Namco) are in the position where they are attempting to sell a standard retail boxed product that addresses the traditional console retail market, as well as the PC digital marketplace that already has highly matured esports titles oriented around that market. This is a really tough situation, which is why I have cut Capcom a lot of slack (especially when the base game is so good), but I completely understand why so many PC users are pissed off at being scapegoated every time a Japanese dev has difficulty with decade-old concepts about PC multiplayer.
I think the real solution going forward for PC fighting games is offering both a traditional retail SKU and a free to play SKU, driven by a well-thought-out currency/cosmetics system that is not designed with blatantly obvious holes for exploits/abuse.
For example, in Street Fighter V's case, 99% of the exploits around fight money would be addressed by some basic logic checks done when the server is contacted to collect rewards. The real solution, however, would have been for Capcom to fully think through their business model. They designed a game that is heavily oriented around 1 vs 1 multiplayer, but the most efficient way to obtain currency was in a single player only mode that exists as little more than a massive timesink with heavy RNG elements. It is blatantly obvious to anyone that this is horrible design for a game that wants you engaged in multiplayer most of the time.
As for players modding in premium costumes etc, games like DOTA2 completely allow this, yet have a way more successful market for cosmetics than Street Fighter. DOTA is successfully selling £25+ cosmetics despite the ability of players to modify character models. The difference is the gulf in the perception of value between DOTA cosmetics and SF cosmetics - DOTA treats cosmetics as digital inventory items, with trade/resale value, and cosmetics often have a number of value-adding features that a modded item lacks. SF premium cosmetics, however, are generally relatively highly priced yet don't offer any additional value in of themselves (i.e. they are treated no differently than any other costume slot in the game). In this way they are prime targets for someone to just mod the default costume to the players preferred premium costume.
Long story short, Capcom (and now Namco) are in the position where they are attempting to sell a standard retail boxed product that addresses the traditional console retail market, as well as the PC digital marketplace that already has highly matured esports titles oriented around that market. This is a really tough situation, which is why I have cut Capcom a lot of slack (especially when the base game is so good), but I completely understand why so many PC users are pissed off at being scapegoated every time a Japanese dev has difficulty with decade-old concepts about PC multiplayer.
I think the real solution going forward for PC fighting games is offering both a traditional retail SKU and a free to play SKU, driven by a well-thought-out currency/cosmetics system that is not designed with blatantly obvious holes for exploits/abuse.
copelandmaster
Member
LelouchZero
Member
Yeah I saw that just now, I think he's basically saying that what he said was mistranslated and that they are undecided on cross platform play.
I think this is what Harada replied to.
He's going to re-download some Illusion games and think it over.
:/
Not experienced any hackers in Europe(Specifically the UK, but I got matched with other Western Europeans).
The only thing I've experienced is the laggy people. I blame Capcoms questionable netcode for that, rather than the people themselves.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
It's telling that very few of the top games on the Steam charts are from this year. PC digital is much less launch and pre-order focused compared to console retail. If anything, it is a discount driven platform.
For example, Naruto 4 recently experienced a huge upward tick in activity:
Last 30 Days 441.0 +217.4 +97.24% 1,892
August 2016 223.6 -134.3 -37.53% 358
That was in direct response to a Steam sale on September 16 through the 18. That is an easy way to get fresh meat on the servers. Consoles typically don't have those type of deep digital discounts that close to launch.
In addition, many regions (like China) have relatively few consoles so the lack of PC cross-play really hurts in those markets.