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How 2K Killed Irrational Games (by an anonymous IG developer)

A

AlexFlame116

Member
Hmm...actually I'm interested in a couple of things said in this blog. I didn't know that Borderlands TPS was made with that many people. Also, Mafia needed to sell that much???
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
sflufan said:
The post even provides some data on the sales (or lack thereof) of Mafia III.

I do wish to note that the post is very much one-sided in favor of IG and should not be viewed as any type of objective reporting. For example, it does not address at all Ken Levine's well-documented "quirks" during the development of BioShock: Infinite which led to the spiraling of development costs.
Click to expand...

Yeah what killed Irrational was Levine's complete inability to constrain himself within a budget. He proudly trumpeted "We've thrown away five whole games developing this" like it was a selling point instead of a clear lack of direction and control.
 
T

Tall4Life

Member
Deadbeat said:
Mafia 3 requiring 8 million sales at full price to break even, I am very skeptical of that number.
Click to expand...

Tomb Raider 2013 was something similar, around 7 million I think to break even. It's not that hard to believe with how out of control budgets can get.
 
D

Deadbeat

Banned
Tall4Life said:
Tomb Raider 2013 was something similar, around 7 million I think to break even. It's not that hard to believe with how out of control budgets can get.
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Anyone got a link to that? I thought it was Squares stupid expectations, not that they actually needed 7 million sales to break even.
 
T

tearsintherain

Member
Deadbeat said:
Mafia 3 requiring 8 million sales at full price to break even, I am very skeptical of that number.
Click to expand...

If what the article says about the Mafia 3 team being 150+ people that wouldn't really be surprising, Marin County is a super expensive place. That is just an insane number even if remotely true, how would a single player only game featuring racism do those kind of numbers.

Still its hard to read that article without a bit of wincing, like "critically acclaimed Bioshock 2" (really?) but at the same time 2K games seems to make really bad decisions.
 
W

wanderingprostheyltite

Member
Kinda hard to believe the whole thing went to shit just because of XCOM Declassified (which was apparently meddled with by higher ups). As others have noted, Levine didn't seem to handle Infinite's development the best. This is a writeup that would have been better paraphrased and collated by someone like Schreier, a bit of a sloppy telling of events.
 
T

TheSpaceBetween

Member
Damn that really sucks. But Irrational DID take forever to make games. They were extremely lucky that turd of a game Infinite sold as well as it did after it's troubled development. And even with that weren't they not even close to being profitable?
 
T

Tapejara

Member
tearsintherain said:
If what the article says about the Mafia 3 team being 150+ people that wouldn't really be surprising, Marin County is a super expensive place. That is just an insane number even if remotely true, how would a single player only game featuring racism do those kind of numbers.

Still its hard to read that article without a bit of wincing, like "critically acclaimed Bioshock 2" (really?) but at the same time 2K games seems to make really bad decisions.
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BioShock 2 has an 88 on Metacritic.
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
I can't see a logical way in which a game that was made in Prague for most of its life followed by a 3-4 year development cycle by a peak team size of 150 could need upwards of $288 million to break even.

Even if we assume an average staff member was $120,000 a year, and all were there for four years from the start, that's still only $72 million plus what they spent in the Czech Republic.

Marketing is spent as a portion of sales generally and gets cut off if the game isn't performing, so that wouldn't spiral out of control.
 
T

Terrell

Member
I've heard enough stories like this from the industry that I am no longer surprised. It's part of the reason I don't support Western 3rd-parties with my money outside of the indie space, more often than not: you can almost guarantee people got screwed over during development of each and every game.
 
C

CartridgeBlower

Member
The article doesn't really get into specifics. It kind of just recounts game releases and sales, with studio closures and what team took what lead on what game. All of this was already public, right?

Not saying I doubt this article's legitimacy, but there really isn't anything shocking, at all.

EDIT: Scratch that, now I kinda am...

Welfare said:
Ah yes, numbers from V G CHARTZ

lol
Click to expand...
 
Z

ZombieSupaStar

Member
Is this really how a studio acquisition is supposed to go? Pay millions for a talented independent studio, let the people make you giant profits for a decade, and then shut all those people out of jobs before they get the chance to make you more money?
Click to expand...


Put your hand down EA.
 
DiscoJer

DiscoJer

Member
Was Mafia ever a high profile IP? I thought it was a cut rate GTA clone (at best). Or am I thinking of something else? (Maybe the Godfather...)

Seems crazy they would pump so much money into developing it or having such high expectations.
 
S

Saucycarpdog

Member
But I really hope this brings more discussion about the shit that game developers have to deal with by the shitty publishers.

We need unions in this industry.
 
E

Emperor_Uriel

Member
Deadbeat said:
Mafia 3 requiring 8 million sales at full price to break even, I am very skeptical of that number.
Click to expand...

I'm not.

The game arguably outdoes Rockstar from a cinematic angle, has immensely high quality voicework and mocap, nuanced core gameplay, a long dev cycle and an open world setting. That's a crapton of effort, time and talent poured into a product, enough that any deluded publisher could be certain they had the next big hit on their hands.

If they'd just hired better quest designer, they might have struck gold.
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Saucycarpdog said:
I can see 2K shuttering whichever made Battleborn in the future.
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They don't own Gearbox, and have them signed up to develop Borderlands 3.

That said, generally publisher studios are shut down for failure of process (having rough, poorly managed development cycles, especially if they result in poorly rated products), not failure of product (bad sales). The other is poor strategic fit.
 
S

soultron

Banned
Yeah, I don't think this is real.

Most of the time when you work at a developer owned by a huge publisher, you have access to internal sales data. Using VGC is a terrible idea that basically shreds any credibility you hope to have.

Also, that Mafia sales target is straight up tales from my ass material. If a publisher seriously slates an open world SP-only game released in this PACKED quarter standing a chance at hitting those numbers LT, they're high as fuck.
 
M

Mr. Tibbs

Member
Nirolak said:
I can't see a logical way in which a game that was made in Prague for most of its life followed by a 3-4 year development cycle by a peak team size of 150 could need upwards of $288 million to break even.

Even if we assume an average staff member was $120,000 a year, and all were there for four years from the start, that's still only $72 million plus what they spent in the Czech Republic.

Marketing is spent as a portion of sales generally and gets cut off if the game isn't performing, so that wouldn't spiral out of control.
Click to expand...

^ After the reboot, development at the Novato studio was just a small team of leads working on pre-production with a handful of relocated 2K Czech people. Hangar 13 didn't start staffing up until 2014.
 
P

pa22word

Member
Dude is also wrong about 2K Marin. I'm pretty sure they rebooted it with Rod Ferguson before he jumped over to work on Gears. No idea what they're doing now.


tearsintherain said:
"critically acclaimed Bioshock 2" (really?)
Click to expand...

Just because a certain section of fanboys hate the game for irrational and stupid ass reasons doesn't mean it both isn't good nor sold well.

animlboogy said:
And yet Levine's the one they begged to stay.
Click to expand...

Levine has the zeitgeist behind him, and you can't pay for that with all the money in the world. Infinite, despite it being a fairly mediocre game, sold well and reviewed well almost entirely due to the hype that man's face inspired.
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
pa22word said:
Dude is also wrong about 2K Marin. I'm pretty sure they rebooted it with Rod Ferguson before he jumped over to work on Gears. No idea what they're doing now.




Just because a certain section of fanboys hate the game for irrational and stupid ass reasons doesn't mean it both isn't good nor sold well.
Click to expand...
Rod Ferguson went to work at the studio that's now know as Hangar 13. That studio is just also in Marin County.
 
G

Gamer @ Heart

Member
I am fascinated by articles like this, but sadly this one is very disappointing.

He harps on sales numbers, but lacks any specifics whatsoever into how corporate meddled in the developemnt at the other studios.

Could have been a basis for an expansion of the irrational downfall article from kotaku a few years back if he had actually given someone like Jason access to sources.
 
B

blakep267

Member
soultron said:
Yeah, I don't think this is real.

Most of the time when you work at a developer owned by a huge publisher, you have access to internal sales data. Using VGC is a terrible idea that basically shreds any credibility you hope to have.

Also, that Mafia sales target is straight up tales from my ass material. If a publisher seriously slates an open world SP-only game released in this PACKED quarter standing a chance at hitting those numbers LT, they're high as fuck.
Click to expand...
I mean watchdogs 2 will probably hit that easily( granted it's not only SP but I don't think the MP stuff is really the selling point

If Maria were a better game it'd probably sell really well( don't know about 8 mill thoand that)
 
M

Mr. Tibbs

Member
pa22word said:
Dude is also wrong about 2K Marin. I'm pretty sure they rebooted it with Rod Ferguson before he jumped over to work on Gears. No idea what they're doing now.
Click to expand...

That's Hangar 13, the studio behind Mafia 3. There are some former 2K Marin and Irrational staff there and it's located in Novato, but it's a new studio.
 
P

pa22word

Member
Mr. Tibbs said:
That's Hangar 13, the studio behind Mafia 3. There are some former 2K Marin and Irrational staff there and it's located in Novato, but it's a new studio.
Click to expand...

Ahh, kk.

I figured as much, considering the Looking Glass code makes probably its most apt cameo in Mafia 3. Pretty sure I was the only dude who noticed it tho =\
 
P

pa22word

Member
Mr. Tibbs said:
0451 for the hotel mission!
Click to expand...

tumblr_n1lum60bkf1smcbm7o1_500.gif
 
M

MrGerbils

Member
Nirolak said:
I can't see a logical way in which a game that was made in Prague for most of its life followed by a 3-4 year development cycle by a peak team size of 150 could need upwards of $288 million to break even.

Even if we assume an average staff member was $120,000 a year, and all were there for four years from the start, that's still only $72 million plus what they spent in the Czech Republic.

Marketing is spent as a portion of sales generally and gets cut off if the game isn't performing, so that wouldn't spiral out of control.
Click to expand...


The biggest chunk of marketing is spent upfront (often marketing can cost near the same as development) and devs don't get the full $60 from a sale, and there's also a lot of other costs involved in running a studio than just salaries.

If you use your own numbers, add heathy marketing, take out a lot of the profit from sales that goes elsewhere, and round up for other costs you can certainly get close to the number in the article.

Making (and selling) games is expensive.
 
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