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How 2K Killed Irrational Games (by an anonymous IG developer)

Borderlands The Pre-Sequel was only made with 40 people? That's pretty damn impressive.

It helped that they used the Borderlands 2 engine with no major modifications/alterations/additions, so on the technical side they had much, much less work to do. It was purely content creation, so in a sense it's more of a very large standalone expansion, in the vein of Halo 3: ODST and Super Mario Galaxy 2.
 
Still its hard to read that article without a bit of wincing, like "critically acclaimed Bioshock 2" (really?) but at the same time 2K games seems to make really bad decisions.

As others have said, it was acclaimed though. And in fact it was an excellent game that never really got a fair shot because gamers decided it was a low quality cash grab before the game even came out. Not that it was entirely unreasonable to expect it to be, since it was put out by a completely separate studio, was a sequel to an acclaimed game that needed no sequel, and seemingly tacked on unneeded multiplayer, so there were red flags, but still. It's been years and at this point there's really no reason for the hate and dismissal it has gotten.

Plus, the multiplayer was far better than it had any right to be.

Edit: Dammit, got distracted writing this and clicked submit, mean to cut and paste into the above post.
 

jwhit28

Member
Take Two as a whole seems like such an awkwardly ran business. For as many mega hits as they have between 2k and Rockstar they seem to underperform or just skate by finacially.
 
Take Two as a whole seems like such an awkwardly ran business. For as many mega hits as they have between 2k and Rockstar they seem to underperform or just skate by finacially.

I think they could take major losses on every non-GTA/2K Sports title and still easily make a large profit on those alone. Throw in the occasional Borderlands 2 and they're even better.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
The biggest chunk of marketing is spent upfront (often marketing can cost near the same as development) and devs don't get the full $60 from a sale, and there's also a lot of other costs involved in running a studio than just salaries.

If you use your own numbers, add heathy marketing, take out a lot of the profit from sales that goes elsewhere, and round up for other costs you can certainly get close to the number in the article.

Making (and selling) games is expensive.

If you actually look at the numbers I used, I already assessed the publisher as getting $36 on a full priced copy.

Even if you assessed the development budget (including building costs and software/hardware costs), I'd be shocked if you got much past $100 million.

People also do not spend a run rate that would get to $180+ million. A higher end run rate for a game would be 15% of expected wholesale price (EA does more like 5-10%). To illustrate the lunacy on display with these numbers, let's say they expected to sell 12 million full priced copies of the game. You would spend 12,000,000 * $60 * 0.15 would still only net you $108 million over the course of the game's marketing lifecycle. This would assume that Take-Two was absolutely batshit insane with expectations despite all signs, and still would get no where near the requirement of 8 million full priced copies. You will also note I assumed zero digital sales, zero special editions, and zero DLC sales.

The numbers don't make sense. It's entirely possible Mafia 3 is a failure, but the described scenario doesn't live in reality.
 

Tapejara

Member
Its a shame Mafia 3 ended up being a failure,

I don't think we can say based off of this post that Mafia 3 was a failure. There's no way to know if T2's sales target is actually 8 million, or that the game has sold "far less" than 1 million. The writer also sources most of his/her numbers from that website.

I'd assume it's underperformed; but the article makes it sound like the game bombed so hard that it could never recover with nothing to substantiate that claim (why would an employee for Irrational, that was shut down in 2013, have access to internal sales numbers and targets for Mafia 3, a game released in 2016 by a completely different studio?)
 
The biggest chunk of marketing is spent upfront (often marketing can cost near the same as development) and devs don't get the full $60 from a sale, and there's also a lot of other costs involved in running a studio than just salaries.

If you use your own numbers, add heathy marketing, take out a lot of the profit from sales that goes elsewhere, and round up for other costs you can certainly get close to the number in the article.

Making (and selling) games is expensive.

Evidently, but there is simply no way in hell 2k would spend more on Mafia 3 than it did on GTA 5.

"hey, yknow that franchise that we have that never sold gangbusters? let's pump a quarter billion on it!". cmon.
 

diamount

Banned
I can't see a logical way in which a game that was made in Prague for most of its life followed by a 3-4 year development cycle by a peak team size of 150 could need upwards of $288 million to break even.

Even if we assume an average staff member was $120,000 a year, and all were there for four years from the start, that's still only $72 million plus what they spent in the Czech Republic.

Marketing is spent as a portion of sales generally and gets cut off if the game isn't performing, so that wouldn't spiral out of control.

How late in development was it when it was moved to Hangar 13 in California?
 
Hmm...actually I'm interested in a couple of things said in this blog. I didn't know that Borderlands TPS was made with that many people. Also, Mafia needed to sell that much???
TPS was made with more people. That's article isn't including a crew inside Gearbox that also worked on the game.
 

Ban Puncher

Member
But I really hope this brings more discussion about the shit that game developers have to deal with by the shitty publishers.

We need unions in this industry.

Z4UqVXn.gif
 

Dicktatorship

Junior Member
I thought Ken Levine killed it by being an ass during the development of Infinite? I've (3rd hand) heard him being a prick drove away all the talent from the original Bioshock and that they had developed 2 and 1/2 worth of a game-and scrapped most of it-due to indecision- when Ferguson came in to make sure it shipped this decade.
 
I'm not.

The game arguably outdoes Rockstar from a cinematic angle, has immensely high quality voicework and mocap, nuanced core gameplay, a long dev cycle and an open world setting. That's a crapton of effort, time and talent poured into a product, enough that any deluded publisher could be certain they had the next big hit on their hands.

If they'd just hired better quest designer, they might have struck gold.

It's hard to believe when you consider that TT released sales data for their franchises and put Mafia at 5m. That was back in 2011, so it's obviously sold more by now. But it seems questionable to then develop a new entry to that series that would need to sell more than both previous entries combined just to break even.
 

eggandI

Banned
Speaking of Gearbox I wonder how many dozens of millions they lost on Battleborn.

All they had to do was make BL3 😂
 
Speaking of Gearbox I wonder how many dozens of millions they lost on Battleborn.

All they had to do was make BL3 ��

They are making Borderlands 3. It's not coming out for a couple years, but they are most definitely making it as we speak.
 

xch1n

Member
I can't see a logical way in which a game that was made in Prague for most of its life followed by a 3-4 year development cycle by a peak team size of 150 could need upwards of $288 million to break even.

Even if we assume an average staff member was $120,000 a year, and all were there for four years from the start, that's still only $72 million plus what they spent in the Czech Republic.

Marketing is spent as a portion of sales generally and gets cut off if the game isn't performing, so that wouldn't spiral out of control.

RE: The Mafia III numbers not making sense, that 150 number is a chunk of the cost, but there are a lot of employees and contractors that aren't in that number. Things not in studio headcount:

Voice acting
Motion capture acting
Motion capture processing/cleanup (because unless you're a first party studio, you likely don't own an end-to-end mocap solution - maybe 2K does, but you have to account for that somewhere)
Localization
QA (definitely not done in-house other than 4-8ish people out of that headcount, if that)
Random contractor audio/scripting/animation/art work


Those things are really REALLY expensive and are always grossly underestimated (in my experience) by non-industry people when accounting for budget. And especially for an open-world game, there's no way 150 people can do the work necessary for a game of that scope.
 
Speaking of Gearbox I wonder how many dozens of millions they lost on Battleborn.

All they had to do was make BL3 😂

It's safe to say they lost a lot. Randy has said that they invested more in Battleborn than they did on both BL games combined.
 
RE: The Mafia III numbers not making sense, that 150 number is a chunk of the cost, but there are a lot of employees and contractors that aren't in that number. Things not in studio headcount:

Voice acting
Motion capture acting
Motion capture processing/cleanup (because unless you're a first party studio, you likely don't own an end-to-end mocap solution - maybe 2K does, but you have to account for that somewhere)
Localization
QA (definitely not done in-house other than 4-8ish people out of that headcount, if that)
Random contractor audio/scripting/animation/art work


Those things are really REALLY expensive and are always grossly underestimated (in my experience) by non-industry people when accounting for budget. And especially for an open-world game, there's no way 150 people can do the work necessary for a game of that scope.

Regardless, $288 million is a lot of fucking money for what Mafia 3 is. Hell, GTA V is much bigger and only cost $265 million, and that includes marketing.
 
But I really hope this brings more discussion about the shit that game developers have to deal with by the shitty publishers.

We need unions in this industry.

If publishers and developers (studios like Irrational) had to pay for all of the unpaid overtime that the average project requires, it would be the end of the game industry.
 

KingBroly

Banned
Regardless, $288 million is a lot of fucking money for what Mafia 3 is. Hell, GTA V is much bigger and only cost $265 million, and that includes marketing.

Yeah, I can't see how in the Hell Mafia 3 cost more to make and market than GTAV. No way. Hell, I can only see a handful of games getting away with costs like that, and Mafia isn't one of them.
 
One of the biggest problems with modern game development is that once you're already developing assets and writing code for specific sequences and features of the game, there isn't much, if any room for changes of any real note.

2K specifically as a company has dealt with several projects that were tossed out and rebuilt several times over, either because the concept/pre-production phase wasn't properly implemented before development was already underway, designers got starry-eyed when looking at contemporaries/new ideas during development, or lack of conviction with initial ideas, thus erasing a lot of progress made along the way.

It's why producers are very important and need to be able to put their foot down. It might clash with artistic aspirations and vision, but when you as a studio head have accepted a $50+ million dollar responsibility from a parent company, I feel you've signed off on that idea long ago. Remember how they had a preview for Bioshock Infinite 3 fucking years before it came out? And that was AFTER the actual project was announced to the public.

Regarding this blog post - I'm sure there is blame to be given to 2K, but only insofar as their willingness to allow Irrational and companies such as 2K Czech to run their operation without more scrutiny. I know this post might read like I'm trying to defend 2K or publishers at large for a lot of issues with big games, but to say it's a very one-sided endeavor is presumptive.

And I might be mistaken, but I remember hearing that projects such as Sleeping Dogs, TR 2013 and Hitman Absolution had insane sales projections to make up for Square-Enix's other losses, from games such as FF XIV, the FF XIII and Versus/FFXV saga. Oh yea, and the Luminous/White Engine which seemingly went nowhere and look to have been massive money- and timesinks. In that regard, SE more than happily deserves blame for putting undue pressure on devs for their own fuck-ups as a company.
 

Drazgul

Member
Borderlands The Pre-Sequel was only made with 40 people? That's pretty damn impressive.

To be fair, the development team started with 120 people but due to the hostile nature of Australia where everything can kill you (fear the venomous dropbears), there was natural attrition during development.
 

Cracklox

Member
This is all very interesting. My brother married the sister of a longtime Irrational/2k employee who was a level designer on Bioshock and worked his way up to be one of the creative leads on XCOM and Borderlands the Presequel . They all live in a different part of the country so I've only met him a few times but he was a really nice guy.

I haven't spoke with anyone up there for a while and its just dawned on me he's out of a job. Heck, this could even be his letter. It reads like it was from someone based in the Canberra office too...

Might need to make a long overdue call to my brother now
 

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
If you actually look at the numbers I used, I already assessed the publisher as getting $36 on a full priced copy.

Even if you assessed the development budget (including building costs and software/hardware costs), I'd be shocked if you got much past $100 million.

People also do not spend a run rate that would get to $180+ million. A higher end run rate for a game would be 15% of expected wholesale price (EA does more like 5-10%). To illustrate the lunacy on display with these numbers, let's say they expected to sell 12 million full priced copies of the game. You would spend 12,000,000 * $60 * 0.15 would still only net you $108 million over the course of the game's marketing lifecycle. This would assume that Take-Two was absolutely batshit insane with expectations despite all signs, and still would get no where near the requirement of 8 million full priced copies. You will also note I assumed zero digital sales, zero special editions, and zero DLC sales.

The numbers don't make sense. It's entirely possible Mafia 3 is a failure, but the described scenario doesn't live in reality.

The numbers make sense if you factor in the extended development time, the possible complete restarting of the project when it was moved from the Czech Republic to Marin, the cost of moving personnel to Marin from the Czech Republic, and the fairly extensive marketing campaign backing the game. They bet big on this one to be the breakout hit that brought the series into mainstream GTA-level success, and it didn't work. The cost of this game goes far beyond just what it cost to pay the devs.
 

scitek

Member
Kinda hard to believe the whole thing went to shit just because of XCOM Declassified (which was apparently meddled with by higher ups). As others have noted, Levine didn't seem to handle Infinite's development the best. This is a writeup that would have been better paraphrased and collated by someone like Schreier, a bit of a sloppy telling of events.

They likely meddled with XCOM because it was terrible. I mean, it looked terrible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHGvNW4fhhI

I haven't played much of The Bureau, but it didn't grab me after about an hour or so.
 

Sakujou

Banned
I've heard enough stories like this from the industry that I am no longer surprised. It's part of the reason I don't support Western 3rd-parties with my money outside of the indie space, more often than not: you can almost guarantee people got screwed over during development of each and every game.
the only one good post. it boggles me everytime hearing this shit from mid-tier games exceeding several million dollars to break even. i can understand if there is new tech involved, has been in dev-hell or if the game is state of the art... but like this? cmon.
and this is why AAA gaming has went to the gutter.
banning good instructionbooklets with useful and colourful information and marketing until the moment people are tired of seeing those commercials...
so sad.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
The numbers make sense if you factor in the extended development time, the possible complete restarting of the project when it was moved from the Czech Republic to Marin, the cost of moving personnel to Marin from the Czech Republic, and the fairly extensive marketing campaign backing the game. They bet big on this one to be the breakout hit that brought the series into mainstream GTA-level success, and it didn't work. The cost of this game goes far beyond just what it cost to pay the devs.

RE: The Mafia III numbers not making sense, that 150 number is a chunk of the cost, but there are a lot of employees and contractors that aren't in that number. Things not in studio headcount:

Voice acting
Motion capture acting
Motion capture processing/cleanup (because unless you're a first party studio, you likely don't own an end-to-end mocap solution - maybe 2K does, but you have to account for that somewhere)
Localization
QA (definitely not done in-house other than 4-8ish people out of that headcount, if that)
Random contractor audio/scripting/animation/art work


Those things are really REALLY expensive and are always grossly underestimated (in my experience) by non-industry people when accounting for budget. And especially for an open-world game, there's no way 150 people can do the work necessary for a game of that scope.
I feel it's notably important to recognize how much I intentionally inflated the core numbers and depressed the earnings numbers to account for additional costs.

Hangar 13 was a small preproduction team when they started, not anywhere even remotely near 150 people.

They actually didn't move many people from Prague to Novato, because they actually have a studio in Brno to absorb people toward that end.

The wholesale price to retailers here is assumed quite low for a publisher with the strength of Take-Two.

120K is not my assumed average salary at the studio, because they're definitely not paying that, but I'm rolling in all the overhead of housing them, buying them hardware and software licenses, and giving them benefits befitting of a professional staff member.

The marketing cost assumptions here are also insane. I know people who do marketing on AAA productions, and they do not actually spend anything on that scale these days because almost every major publisher focuses on high efficiency digital buys. You'll notice we don't have anyone doing CG trailer buys in major January sporting events anymore. If Mafia 3 had that kind of advertising spend, you would be seeing more ads for it than Disney ran for The Force Awakens given the limited markets the game is in.
 

oneils

Member
No offence to this guy, but the writer seems largely ignorant to the money/business side of 2k. I'm taking this with a huge grain of salt.
 
Yeah what killed Irrational was Levine's complete inability to constrain himself within a budget. He proudly trumpeted "We've thrown away five whole games developing this" like it was a selling point instead of a clear lack of direction and control.
I heard Levine talk about one of his close friends who was always his, how do I put this, Levine was the designer and said friend was the producer who would keep Ken and budgets in line. But after Bioshock 1 said friend was sent over to 2K Marin by Take Two executives in order to turn them into the B Team for the Bioshock franchise. Safe to say that the plan those execs had in mind didn't exactly work out how they thought it would.
 
I read half of that write-up. Honestly, everything in it was so top level that I could've written by looking at Wikipedia. I bet the "juicy" stuff is all horseshit.
 

mephixto

Banned
It's not only how much copies you sell or how critically acclaimed your title is, there is also how much money and time you spend to make those games and iirc those Bioshock games weren't cheap or smooth to develop.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
That article didn't really provide any insight into what killed Irrational. Summarised "boo hoo they bought us and changed our name, but it's fine, no it really is, and then we made games that sold a lot, and head office meddled with a game and it sold bad, and then they shut us down, and that name change tho"

Such insider insight
 
While there are some things in that piece that don't make that much sense (taking sales numbers from that website instead of having access yourself?), it does paint the global picture of 2K. They really need to look at their development studios and make changes in what is going on. 2K management seems to think they can handle projects above the scope they actually can.

2K is very strong with marketing. The track leading up to games like Evolve and Mafia were good and had a lot of hype. But that doesn't seem to translate into actual success because the games are just not at the level they market them as. If you market Mafia 3 as a game on the level of GTA, you damn sure need to deliver on that and they can't.

Once again it will be Rockstar saving the day for Take-Two later on, coupled with 2K Sports which is doing well.

They really need to look at which projects to greenlight (who was actually thinking an XCOM shooter made sense?) and manage their teams in a way that they can deliver on the marketing promises instead of multiple times now leaving their buyers with a bad taste in their mouth and having sales tank after the first week.
 

JohnnyFootball

GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Yeah what killed Irrational was Levine's complete inability to constrain himself within a budget. He proudly trumpeted "We've thrown away five whole games developing this" like it was a selling point instead of a clear lack of direction and control.

If not for Rod Ferguson the game may not have ever been finished.
 

Woo-Fu

Banned
Who asked for XCOM Declassified?

Nobody. It was an effort to bank on a franchise name by expanding into a different genre.

I don't think it was necessarily a bad idea. Blizzard seemed to do OK using an RTS brand to make an MMO. ;)
 
I heard Levine talk about one of his close friends who was always his, how do I put this, Levine was the designer and said friend was the producer who would keep Ken and budgets in line. But after Bioshock 1 said friend was sent over to 2K Marin by Take Two executives in order to turn them into the B Team for the Bioshock franchise. Safe to say that the plan those execs had in mind didn't exactly work out how they thought it would.

Levine talked about it in an interview and a thread was made on GAF.
 
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