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[Funyarinpa]

0451 for the hotel mission!

Haven't gotten to playing the game but that's REALLY cool.

Spoiler

Was that code used before System Shock?

 

[Rexatality]

Haven't gotten to playing the game but that's REALLY cool.

Spoiler

Was that code used before System Shock?

System Shock 1 was the first game to use the code.

IIRC, It was also the security code for Looking Glass offices at the time

 

[Funyarinpa]

System Shock 1 was the first game to use the code.

IIRC, It was also the security code for Looking Glass offices at the time

Lol that's awesome.

 

[Karak]

Are those Mafia numbers right?

 

[Screaming Meat]

For example, it does not address at all Ken Levine's well-documented "quirks" during the development of BioShock: Infinite which led to the spiraling of development costs.

Anything about these "quirks"? Would be an interesting read.

They likely meddled with XCOM because it was terrible. I mean, it looked terrible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHGvNW4fhhI

I thought that looked good XD

 

[Pachinko]

Are those Mafia numbers right?

8 million copies @ 35 USD (taking away licensing/disc pressing and retail cut) = 280 million dollars in revenue - development and marketing. I don't recall Mafia 3 having the marketing of something crazy like GTA5 and it also doesn't look like it had that huge development budget either.. but I suppose 8 million is probably the expected number internally to get a nice fat return on investment for all the shareholders. Even if the game had a 50 million dollar marketing budget , I highly doubt it cost 230 million to make.

230 million for a western developed game implies a team of 500 + working on the game for 5 years at full staff. While having that large a team isn't unheard of these days, those teams are usually stuck with 2-3 year development cycles to keep costs from getting that obscene.

So in a nutshell, I don't think Mafia 3 needs to sell 8 million copies to become profitable. The actual number to break even is probably closer to half that. Of course that implies full priced sales too , so once you factor in discounts and a long tail of post release copies , you can probably settle on something like 5-6 million being needed within 12 months to make money overall. 8 million full priced copies would imply a pretty hefty profit.

Just for sake of reference , I recall reading back in 2013 when GTA5 launched, it needed 10 million copies to break even BUT , it had easily a 200 million dollar budget and 100 million spent on top of that for advertising. That's a game where it's understandable , Mafia 3 is like the low rent knock off , maybe not to the degree that Saints row is (every saint's row title put together probably cost half as much as GTA5, even with marketing).

The point still stands though - that what happened with irrational is just a prime example of how clueless the big wigs are within any entertainment industry. They really squandered some great talent by closing down these studios.

 

[Silver Arrows]

I've heard enough stories like this from the industry that I am no longer surprised. It's part of the reason I don't support Western 3rd-parties with my money outside of the indie space, more often than not: you can almost guarantee people got screwed over during development of each and every game.

Implying Japanese developers don't do the same? Come the fuck on.

 

[R_thanatos]

The reward for being profitable from HQ was subsequently closing the Australian studio down in April 2015, with the official reason being: “It is no longer economical for 2K to run game development operations in Australia”. [9] You mean no longer economical to run a team of 40 developers paid significantly less than their American counterparts, who just sold 1.7 million units after an 18 month production cycle? That makes precisely zero sense, but we were told not to worry about it “because developers just don’t understand how the games business works.”

Man that part hit a nerve in me.

I was a programmer and i lost my job after making a sucessfull product that made plenty of cash for my company..but i was told that my work could be done by other peoples in some place halfway across the world for 5 times less.

Now i work in the education system of my country.

I feel what happenned to you dude, i understand .. you burst your ass off , delivery a product that works and make money and they ditch you like it's nothing and it's natural... 5 years later that still make me sick.

Yeah yeah devs don't understand how some of the higher-ups can be so clueless.

 

[Tecnniqe]

we were told not to worry about it “because developers just don’t understand how the games business works.”

Woow

 

[sflufan]

Anything about these "quirks"? Would be an interesting read.

This Polygon article from 2014 addresses what happened in the final years of Irrational Games.

 

[sflufan]

Haven't gotten to playing the game but that's REALLY cool.

Spoiler

Was that code used before System Shock?

Yes.

 

[Mr. Mister]

To everyone hung up on the 8 million number - let's says the post was wrong and its actually only 5 million at full price. You think it'll actually do that? Unfortunately I'd expect they skeleton crew the required DLC and then shut it down.

 

[Rexatality]

Then it deserves to end.

While games industry's management is a fucking trainwreck, you do realize that means any game you may want to play will no longer be made or your favorite developers will close down.

 

[DocSeuss]

Nothing in this article points to it being genuine, and I've read other, more credible stories online about studios like Irrational that paint a rather different picture. This reads like someone who doesn't know what's going on doing their best at pretending to be an insider.

 

[NathanS]

While games industry's management is a fucking trainwreck, you do realize that means any game you may want to play will no longer be made or your favorite developers will close down.

Yes, but if they can't make those game without actually paying their employees and treating them with basic human decently, then so be it. They're just games.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Those Bioshock Sales seem....low

According to SteamSpy Bioshock 1 sold 3,6 million, 2 sold 3,2 million and Infinite 4,6 million on Steam alone. Obviously not at full price but still. Weird to pull numbers from ********

 

[Mr. Tibbs]

Are those Mafia numbers right?

Of course not. In 2011, the series, across two games and six platforms, had only sold 5 million copies. Hangar 13's studio space is located at 2K Games headquarters, and it didn't enter full production until 2014.

 

[StereoVsn]

I can see around $70mil in labor over 3 years ($150k per dev x 150 devs). Then you throw another $5-10 mil per year on studio, equipment, upkeep, etc... Then you add marketing. Plus whatever development was done in Prague.

You are going to get over $150mil with all of that. So, now think of how much the publisher takes in, between physical and digital they may need 4-5 mil copies full priced or at least only small discount before they can start making a decent profit. For a game like Mafia 3 that's just unattainable.

 

[Mr. Tibbs]

Do people really think that 2K expected Mafia 3 to be their second biggest selling game of all-time?

 

[SapphiCine]

2K being bad at managing and detrimental to studios is definitely plausible.

 

[StereoVsn]

Do people really think that 2K expected Mafia 3 to be their second biggest selling game of all-time?

That's immaterial isn't it? Somebody messed up badly in managing the game's development, budget and expectations. It lost them a ton of money any way you look at it and I would t be surprised to see the studio behind the game killed considering 2K's history.

 

[FlyinJ]

What is the difference between 2K Marin and Hangar 13?

They are both in Novato which is a pretty small city... did they just rename 2K Marin to Hangar 13? This article seems to imply they both existed at the same time. Are they in the same building?

 

[badnewsbeers]

While games industry's management is a fucking trainwreck, you do realize that means any game you may want to play will no longer be made or your favorite developers will close down.

Jesus Christ. Are you serious?

 

[KingBroly]

8 million copies @ 35 USD (taking away licensing/disc pressing and retail cut) = 280 million dollars in revenue - development and marketing. I don't recall Mafia 3 having the marketing of something crazy like GTA5 and it also doesn't look like it had that huge development budget either.. but I suppose 8 million is probably the expected number internally to get a nice fat return on investment for all the shareholders. Even if the game had a 50 million dollar marketing budget , I highly doubt it cost 230 million to make.

230 million for a western developed game implies a team of 500 + working on the game for 5 years at full staff. While having that large a team isn't unheard of these days, those teams are usually stuck with 2-3 year development cycles to keep costs from getting that obscene.

So in a nutshell, I don't think Mafia 3 needs to sell 8 million copies to become profitable. The actual number to break even is probably closer to half that. Of course that implies full priced sales too , so once you factor in discounts and a long tail of post release copies , you can probably settle on something like 5-6 million being needed within 12 months to make money overall. 8 million full priced copies would imply a pretty hefty profit.

Just for sake of reference , I recall reading back in 2013 when GTA5 launched, it needed 10 million copies to break even BUT , it had easily a 200 million dollar budget and 100 million spent on top of that for advertising. That's a game where it's understandable , Mafia 3 is like the low rent knock off , maybe not to the degree that Saints row is (every saint's row title put together probably cost half as much as GTA5, even with marketing).

The point still stands though - that what happened with irrational is just a prime example of how clueless the big wigs are within any entertainment industry. They really squandered some great talent by closing down these studios.

I believe GTA5 cost $265 million BEFORE the PS4/XB1/PC ports. I don't see anything in Mafia that looks like it cost that much

 

[FlyinJ]

I can see around $70mil in labor over 3 years ($150k per dev x 150 devs). Then you throw another $5-10 mil per year on studio, equipment, upkeep, etc... Then you add marketing. Plus whatever development was done in Prague.

You are going to get over $150mil with all of that. So, now think of how much the publisher takes in, between physical and digital they may need 4-5 mil copies full priced or at least only small discount before they can start making a decent profit. For a game like Mafia 3 that's just unattainable.

Marketing expense is generally projected as the same dollar amount as the entire cost of development for AAA games.

It's ridiculous.

 

[Jacksinthe]

While games industry's management is a fucking trainwreck, you do realize that means any game you may want to play will no longer be made or your favorite developers will close down.

Ridiculous.

Plenty of us ready to pick up the slack with good business practices, games that actually try new things instead of focus testing a game into mush until it looks like every other game, incredible focus on design and not looking to nickel and dime everyone to death.

These old dinosaurs need to die and get out of the way instead of trying to stifle creativity with frivolous lawsuits over bullshit like a single word in a title, acronyms that are only remotely similar, locking down developers so they can't even make personal projects, etc.

There's a whole lot of great devs that could use some light instead of the same-old homogenized bullshit that gets trotted out front and center by zombified corporations who suck the life out of their employees to the point they leave the industry entirely. We need those minds to push the medium and industry forward and instead they are strapped with blinders, told to walk down one road laid down by board members with the design acumen of tree bark, worked to death and then cast aside when the board members ask "what went wrong?"

You can nix all the worst offenders in AAA and the industry wouldn't skip a beat. How many shit practices are now standard due to precedents being set in a whole bunch of anti-consumer practices to the point where we have people arguing against their own self-interests because they buy into the bullshit drivel they read from corporate?

I am more than 100% certain we would all be better off without them and those practices.

 

[KratosEnergyDrink]

While games industry's management is a fucking trainwreck, you do realize that means any game you may want to play will no longer be made or your favorite developers will close down.

Nonsense. If developers would get paid more according to their working time there would probably less but better games. But many developers are willing to be treated as dumb sheeps.

 

[wanderingprostheyltite]

Nonsense. If developers would get paid more according to their working time there would probably less but better games. But many developers are willing to be treated as dumb sheeps.

I'm curious what compensation structure is like for studios like NCL. Almost always highly polished titles with good mechanics. Granted they're much lower scale than most Western AA/AAA releases in terms of tech and scope but nontheless the polish is fairly consistent. Maybe they're just better at cracking the whip and general management, Japan obv doesn't have the greatest qol approach to work lifestyle.

 

[Luigiv]

8 million copies in order to break even??

Nintendo should hold a seminar for AAA developers and publishers on how to manage costs

I'm not really being serious, but the budgets for some of these games truly astound me.

For what it's worth, 2m copies sold to break even is still ridiculously high and only something a guaranteed hit can get away. A lot of AAA flops would still fail to break even with Zelda's budget.

 

[Karak]

8 million copies @ 35 USD (taking away licensing/disc pressing and retail cut) = 280 million dollars in revenue - development and marketing. I don't recall Mafia 3 having the marketing of something crazy like GTA5 and it also doesn't look like it had that huge development budget either.. but I suppose 8 million is probably the expected number internally to get a nice fat return on investment for all the shareholders. Even if the game had a 50 million dollar marketing budget , I highly doubt it cost 230 million to make.

230 million for a western developed game implies a team of 500 + working on the game for 5 years at full staff. While having that large a team isn't unheard of these days, those teams are usually stuck with 2-3 year development cycles to keep costs from getting that obscene.

So in a nutshell, I don't think Mafia 3 needs to sell 8 million copies to become profitable. The actual number to break even is probably closer to half that. Of course that implies full priced sales too , so once you factor in discounts and a long tail of post release copies , you can probably settle on something like 5-6 million being needed within 12 months to make money overall. 8 million full priced copies would imply a pretty hefty profit.

Just for sake of reference , I recall reading back in 2013 when GTA5 launched, it needed 10 million copies to break even BUT , it had easily a 200 million dollar budget and 100 million spent on top of that for advertising. That's a game where it's understandable , Mafia 3 is like the low rent knock off , maybe not to the degree that Saints row is (every saint's row title put together probably cost half as much as GTA5, even with marketing).

The point still stands though - that what happened with irrational is just a prime example of how clueless the big wigs are within any entertainment industry. They really squandered some great talent by closing down these studios.

Ya. I mean I was sort of hoping for real info. I get what your saying though and its the same conclusion I think most came too.

That's immaterial isn't it? Somebody messed up badly in managing the game's development, budget and expectations. It lost them a ton of money any way you look at it and I would t be surprised to see the studio behind the game killed considering 2K's history.

Ya correct that doesn't indicate their desire at all nor was it written that way. It indicates the protracted development situation.

 

[scitek]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=0451

 

[Mr. Tibbs]

Ya correct that doesn't indicate their desire at all nor was it written that way. It indicates the protracted development situation.

According to a Dishonored 2 dev who works with many ex-Irrational staffers, the source story that provided the 8 million figure gets a lot wrong.

Discussion and observations among many ex-Irrationals indicate this is very very likely to be fake, fyi

 

[Karak]

According to a Dishonored 2 dev who works with many ex-Irrational staffers, the source story that provided the 8 million figure gets a lot wrong.

Ya hoping for actual real data at some point as I said.

 

[Gxgear]

I always get confused on who developed the Bioshock titles, didn't realize 2k was playing musical chairs with studio names.

 

[Turin Turambar]

If what the article says about the Mafia 3 team being 150+ people that wouldn't really be surprising, Marin County is a super expensive place. That is just an insane number even if remotely true, how would a single player only game featuring racism do those kind of numbers.

Too insane, for me, Ubisoft makes games with 700+ developers and I think they don't need to sell 8 million copies.

 

[Dalibor68]

To me the real crime is that we'll never get a SWAT 5 ;(

 

[arcticice]

More than 150 people worked on Mafia 3 and still couldn't include a decent campaign? Missions are repetitive as hell, and i'm actually glad that it's not doing good because it doesnt deserve to.

when was the last time 2K actually came out with a good title? (except yearly sports titles)

 

[Data West]

Who asked for XCOM Declassified?

The funny thing is, the original Xcom FPS that so many people shit on, I thought looked awesome. The redesigned bad third person shooter mixed with a bad strategy game that it became was the result of them taking 'fan' feedback far too seriously.

 

[element]

The post doesn't really give any insight or real details and if anything gets TONS of stuff wrong.

 

[Celine]

8. All sales figures in this piece are taken from: www.********.com

thanks but no thanks.

 

[Candescence]

It was quite obvious that XCOM Declassified was originally meant to be a reboot with the XCOM name but then 2K also had Enemy Unknown made and it turned out that game was a hit, which probably sent Declassified's studio into panic mode and seriously overcompensated in trying to make Declassified faithful to the new XCOM line. Frankly, they should've just dropped the XCOM name and stuck to the original concept once they realized it wasn't going to go over well with fans of the original series.

 

[Dalibor68]

It was quite obvious that XCOM Declassified was originally meant to be a reboot with the XCOM name but then 2K also had Enemy Unknown made and it turned out that game was a hit, which probably sent Declassified's studio into panic mode and seriously overcompensated in trying to make Declassified faithful to the new XCOM line. Frankly, they should've just dropped the XCOM name and stuck to the original concept once they realized it wasn't going to go over well with fans of the original series.

Having just rewatched the original XCOM Declassified Reveal trailer, it looks like they moved those black gooey monster straight from there to Prey. (I know not same publisher) Not a fan of that enemy design.

 

[KingBroly]

It was quite obvious that XCOM Declassified was originally meant to be a reboot with the XCOM name but then 2K also had Enemy Unknown made and it turned out that game was a hit, which probably sent Declassified's studio into panic mode and seriously overcompensated in trying to make Declassified faithful to the new XCOM line. Frankly, they should've just dropped the XCOM name and stuck to the original concept once they realized it wasn't going to go over well with fans of the original series.

So...what came first, Enemy Unknown or Declassified? In terms of 'started production first' I mean. I know Declassified was shown first and it got destroyed by fans of XCOM, and was tossed aside when Enemy Unknown was announced.

 

[Rap2thaMoon]

More than 150 people worked on Mafia 3 and still couldn't include a decent campaign? Missions are repetitive as hell, and i'm actually glad that it's not doing good because it doesnt deserve to.

when was the last time 2K actually came out with a good title? (except yearly sports titles)

It's my second favourite game of the year, behind Deus Ex, so I disagree.

 

[Durante]

If publishers and developers (studios like Irrational) had to pay for all of the unpaid overtime that the average project requires, it would be the end of the game industry.

I don't think so. People would still want to play games, and people would still want to make them.

It would be the end of a lot of unsavory and ultimately counter-productive practices like long-term crunch though.

 

[Candescence]

So...what came first, Enemy Unknown or Declassified? In terms of 'started production first' I mean. I know Declassified was shown first and it got destroyed by fans of XCOM, and was tossed aside when Enemy Unknown was announced.

I have no idea. Regardless, 2K likely never expected how much of a success Enemy Unknown ended up being, considering XCOM was a dead franchise in a 'niche' genre. Its critical and financial success likely was a major surprise for them and the Declassified team.

 

[KingBroly]

I have no idea. Regardless, 2K likely never expected how much of a success Enemy Unknown ended up being, considering XCOM was a dead franchise in a 'niche' genre. Its critical and financial success likely was a major surprise for them and the Declassified team.

Well, I feel like them pushing out Declassified first as marketing was a bad idea if they knew an original style XCOM game was in development. When the latter got revealed, the former just kinda...vanished from peoples' minds. They didn't care anymore. People got the XCOM game they wanted, not the FPS they hated because it was so far removed from what the series was known for.

 

[Refyref]

So...what came first, Enemy Unknown or Declassified? In terms of 'started production first' I mean. I know Declassified was shown first and it got destroyed by fans of XCOM, and was tossed aside when Enemy Unknown was announced.

You'd be surprised, but Enemy Unknown. Work on it began in 2007, with traces dating back to 2003.

http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/1/31/3928710/making-of-xcoms-jake-solomon-firaxis-sid-meier

 

[ScientificPizza]

Anyone got a link to that? I thought it was Squares stupid expectations, not that they actually needed 7 million sales to break even.

It was Square's expectations

This article reads like bullshit tbh

 

[ArchedThunder]

For what it's worth, 2m copies sold to break even is still ridiculously high and only something a guaranteed hit can get away. A lot of AAA flops would still fail to break even with Zelda's budget.

2 million for a massive game like Breath of the Wild is actually pretty damn small. We've seen smaller games sell more and still be failures.