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Yoko Taro (Nier Automata) Addresses the 2B butt controversy
- Thread starter Sheentak
- Start date
Pinko Marx
Banned
One day I'd really like to, somehow, someway, understand this full universe.
You don't know and I don't know. I'm not so arrogant that I can presume to know the motivations and thoughts behind Yoshida's designs for Automata until he answers for himself. Until then, all assumption and conjecture about intent is worthless chatter that's based on ephemera.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Execs wanting their product to be more accessible to a larger audience would be just as bad as shafting one gender over the other?
Compared to other mainstream gaming products? I'm talking about the feel of it all. Right down to the way cutscenes are edited.
How About No
Member
It's weird I've seen full LP's of D1, D2 and Nier but still only part of that makes any sense. D3 must provide a looooot more context than the others
killatopak
Gold Member
Man that posted flowchart of the dg/nier timeline made me realize there's alot of stuff I don't know about that's only exclusively released in japan through novels and character books.
Speedwagon
Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. Yabuki turned off voice chat in Mario Kart races. True artists of their time.
who's got the zip
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
It's a fine game, but it's basically "The Road" with a bazillion videogame conventions like guns and stealth kills, mixed with a wikipedia entry on cordyceps.
Or at least, most would probably agree it's an incredibly conventional and unchallenging narrative compared to trying to understand the context of this:
I really wish that the game fleshed out the other intoners better and even gave them playable sections. The black flower is such a beautiful audiovisual design that unites the female characters of the game in their shared trials and repression, lashing out at the world that was so cruel to them, but it wastes a lot of its potential because only Zero's struggle has the narrative weight to carry that lofty concept.
It's one of the most breathtaking setpieces in gaming, and I feel like Taro's vision was kind of sacrificed by the heavy constraints and complications that Drakengard 3 was saddled with.
They did. You can play as all the other intoners and they have their own small stories.
They're DLC.
meltingparappa
Member
It's honestly one of my favorite parts of the whole series. With only the barest use of dialogue, it's such a perfect culmination of everything the game had been setting up. The English delivery by Mikhail at the end kills me every time.
If Drakengard 3 is only one thing, it's a quietly poignant game buried under a million budgetary compromises.
Sooooooooo, high hopes for Nier 2!
Schopenhauerian
Member
These conversations are clearly frustrating for folks on both/all sides. But aren't these conversations also useful, to clarify what you feel are common misconceptions, and so forth? The addition of hostility, as above, tends not to help.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Good to know, but I meant a more significant presence in the narrative as it progresses. Like, Five is MIA for the majority of the game.
For sure. iirc, D3 was basically a hastily ported PSP game.
That's fair, I was being rude. On the other hand, I am really, really sick and tired (especially as a game artist myself) of being told how all game artists in every situation are being forced by management, market conditions or whatever into making sexualized designs. This can be true in larger studios, but as an example this thread we're in right now isn't a AAA project, it's a passion project that only exists because a Taro fan got in contact with him to make a dream game.
Sometimes, I just want to draw/3d model someone hot, and I can understand Yoshida being the same way designing his characters.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Yes, because you need to stop looking at it that way only. They might gain new players from a different group but there is a chance they now lose out on more from changes than they could have gained and as I was saying there is the risk of becoming something that isn't unique and becomes another bland product no one really bats an eye at.
Your argument isn't really unique or good because it can be used by the very people you always argue against. Why shouldn't this game have more moe stuff you would get a bigger otaku audience and have more sells.
In the long run it's typically boils down to people arguing over a bunch of what ifs and so on with no way of ever finding out the answer because they are not in charge of said game to make the what ifs a reality or to see both sides of the fate of the changes because well we don't have time travel
Which is why I was saying a lot of the well done indie games end up being amazing, you get people that stick to their vision they stand out and get the game out that was in their mind for the world to see. There are extremely progressive indie games out there that would never fly in the AAA market and there are silly and weird indie games out there that wouldn't fly past an execs desk.
The M rating for Nier Automata says that there is a fully nude male character in this game, sans genitalia. Probably because they're an android.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
The problem is that it's often the same people with the same ignorant opinions reposting the same tired arguments that have already been addressed multiple times who never had any interest in genuine conversation to begin with.
This is not an evolving conversation. It's just a frustrating formality.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Ok, which one of you is behind the zip?
Come out, no shame Anime boy. We won't judge you
Pinko Marx
Banned
yeah but links tho. where they at.
Schopenhauerian
Member
It's certainly understandable. But I contend that whatever lack of progress there may have been in these threads over time is at least in part attributable to the high levels of hostility that were (unnecessarily) exchanged between the parties involved, ultimately to the detriment of all of the parties involved. Which is why it's always worth making that extra effort:
The Mad Draklor
Member
Dang... it's almost 1 GB, lol.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Nothing will ever top the Dragon's Crown reveal and fan art production speed xD
Can't remember the last time a single JP character design was this popular before the full game/anime/whatever was released.
Lightning maybe?
plasmawave
Banned
maybe splatoon.
Wasn't that more general though? I mean the last instance of a single, specific character.
Hexa
Member
Damn. Major kudos to him for putting in all that effort. Deserves an early copy of the game or something. O.O
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Dragon's Crown. There was literally hundreds of pieces of fan art floating around in less than 8 hours. Nothing comes close
Mr. Smiley
Member
Yeah no, Dragon's Crown was nuts. Felt like I've seen mountains of works before I saw gameplay.
Dragon's Crown. There was literally hundreds of pieces of fan art floating around in less than 8 hours. Nothing comes close
yea and it was mostly the sorceress, right? with some Elf as well.. that shit was crazy
Radical Edward
Member
Hopefully we get a dragon's crown for ps4. Great gameDragon's Crown. There was literally hundreds of pieces of fan art floating around in less than 8 hours. Nothing comes close
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
That project is bland not because they were trying to appeal to a more accessible audience, but because they turned a game that featured a more cartoony art style into a bland one. Which is incredibly different from the hypothetical of creating more reasonable female character designs in an effort to appeal to more than just the audience of men.Yes, because you need to stop looking at it that way only. They might gain new players from a different group but there is a chance they now lose out on more from changes than they could have gained and as I was saying there is the risk of becoming something that isn't unique and becomes another bland product no one really bats an eye at.
The otaku audience is niche as hell, part of the reason the Japanese games industry declined was part of appealing to that niche, (part of it).
I mean we have pretty good examples of the effect progressiveness is having on gaming.In the long run it's typically boils down to people arguing over a bunch of what ifs and so on with no way of ever finding out the answer because they are not in charge of said game to make the what ifs a reality or to see both sides of the fate of the changes because well we don't have time travel
What progressive indie game wouldn't fly in the AAA market if you don't mind me asking? Remember that arguably this gen's most iconic character was just revealed to be a lesbian, TLOU 2 is being made with Ellie being the lead, Emily in Dishonored 2 is allowed to have a secret lover, (who I wish the game actually showed but a lot of that game's narrative structure seemed a bit rushed >_>), Evie Frye had a romance with a POC, etc. things are moving forward quite a bit. Seeing these kinds of things is part of why I look forward to the e3 presentations.
Alex_Mexico
Member
What? Really? I'd like to see the receipts for this!
Relaxed Muscle
Member
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Change is change, it has a domino effect.
And that's part of the problem of people stepping in and demanding things be changed for what they know sells
But that's the thing I'm pretty damn sure that was the original intent and visions of those products. TLOU wanted ellie on the front and she's playable for 1/3rd of the first game. I already said progressive stuff isn't bad what I'm saying is that changing a current vision to fit with certain views because of fear or stuff isn't good.
Devs should be free to make stuff that is in their vision. Not everything needs to be progressive not every game needs to be loved by everyone. Devs make their games with certain goals in mind and typically budget them around the audience they will get with the idea they have. Once you throw those plans out the gate things start to get really wonky and games tend to colapse on themselves and lose their vision.
Sometimes a dev wants to make a game about something they think is cool but not a lot of people will like and that's fine. It's why you see random indie devs get so shocked when one of their games blows up in popularity
Loved Nier and Drakengard, but this comes off as pretty childish. For someone who purports to be as dark and grim as Taro, I'd expect him to ignore this shit and make his art rather than stoop to trolling critics. Guess pettiness isn't beneath him, huh?
Also, there's some rich irony in how uncomfortable he is with exposing himself in interviews, but he's fine with exposing others' bodies. Like, bro, you do realize that if anyone is actually pissed its because of the same problems with voyeurism that seem to bother you? I know Taro's comments frustrated some people in this thread, but honestly, when I think about it and his mask gimmick, it all just comes off as really fragile. :\
Still looking forward to this game, but I hope he finds a better way to respond to critics in the future.
Also, there's some rich irony in how uncomfortable he is with exposing himself in interviews, but he's fine with exposing others' bodies. Like, bro, you do realize that if anyone is actually pissed its because of the same problems with voyeurism that seem to bother you? I know Taro's comments frustrated some people in this thread, but honestly, when I think about it and his mask gimmick, it all just comes off as really fragile. :\
Still looking forward to this game, but I hope he finds a better way to respond to critics in the future.
plasmawave
Banned
This entire post is like... wut.
Yea, first time I've seen that take lol
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It absolutely was. But you know what wasn't the intent of Neil Druckmann originally, Nathan Drake
having a daughter, originally Neil wanted him to have a son but was asked what if it was a woman?
No not every game needs to be progressive. But rarely does a progressive mindset lead to an unbalanced poorly designed game. Development hell is way more the cause of that. Games are constantly changing and rarely is a project exactly as the creator intended unless it's literally made by one person who received no feedback whatsoever.
meltingparappa
Member
He isn't responding to anyone, it's a joke.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Taro does not purport to be dark and grim. Drakengard was a critcism of heroic violence, while Drakengard 3 and Nier were full of oddball humor. All three had touching, emotional moments spread among romance, family, and friendship.
Exentryk
Member
lol. The man just has a great sense of humour. Here's something else he did recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhWGuV6mcE4
You can tell he's just a guy who likes to make people laugh.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Yup and that sucks, but at the same time while inclusiveness is good there runs the risk of a reverse of that happening where say a dev wanted to make a product focused towards a male audience gets shut down because it's not progressive enough. LOL this shit isn't gonna happen in a billion years but regardless a good vision should be allowed to breathe and become something but thats the problem with taking stuff to publishers they don't typically like a gamble. You are seeing more progressive stuff these days from AAA as well because that's what is in at the moment. It's a good thing but at the same time it is because of market research.
Progressive stuff or non progressive stuff rarely has anything to do with gameplay outside of a character you control it's more of an argument towards visual and story of a game. Which are important identities of a game almost as much as gameplay or more than the gameplay given the genre. There is also a difference between idea's being thrown at the dev and them liking them enough to include and change somethings and people not funding or threatening cancellation if they dont change