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Moderation Unlimited · Aug 15, 2006

Shogmaster said:
Umm.... F*CK NO. :lol Apple's business model is all about high margins on hardware. Where are you getting this stuff? "Out of one's ass" is not a valid source.

And you are avoiding what I've pointed out: iPods have sold far far less than something like PS2. Why do you think that is? Maybe it's because it's like $400?

Well, I assumed because of the way Ipod worked (1 hardware to many songs) that it was a 'razor and cartridges' model, but since doing more research, I have found that Steve Jobs has in fact pointed out what you were saying. That they use ITunes as a sort of bait to lock consumers into the Ipod brand. A strange, but useful tactic, as it turns out.

But as far as how well they've sold, that is a different story. Since the company started reporting how many Ipods it's sold on a quarterly basis (since Q4 in 2002...Ipod launched in 2001), Apple has reported approximately 60 million Ipods sold. That's pretty darn good: half way between XBOX and PlayStation 2 numbers. The Ipod hasn't even been out as long as PS2.

Source

johns all like · Aug 15, 2006

hd movies are still a ways out, this whole thing doesn't matter yet. NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE HDTVs. When parents buy their 8 year old a system this christmas, and the xbox is 299 and the ps3 is 499, they will chose to save 200 dollars and buy them some games. they will not look at: if this can play hddvds or BR, they will not look at the lack of hdmi output. they will see price, and that they both have similar games. the addon makes the system, which is what they actually want to sell, much more attractive than the competition. i personally think that the price of nintendo and ms is enough to knock sony way out of what they project.

DCharlie · Aug 15, 2006

hd movies are still a ways out, this whole thing doesn't matter yet. NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE HDTVs. When parents buy their 8 year old a system this christmas, and the xbox is 299 and the ps3 is 499, they will chose a wii.

surely?

fits with the fact they don't have a HDTV, are money concious, and will go for something a bit different.

or not... i guess we'll see.

Moderation Unlimited · Aug 15, 2006

johns all like said:
... the addon makes the system, which is what they actually want to sell, much more attractive than the competition. i personally think that the price of nintendo and ms is enough to knock sony way out of what they project.

Why don't we look to history to see how well add-ons sell? There is Sega CD, Jaguar CD, 32X, etc....

johns all like · Aug 15, 2006

Moderation Unlimited said:
Why don't we look to history to see how well add-ons sell? There is Sega CD, Jaguar CD, 32X, etc....

no, that wasn't what i meant. The price model for the system is allowed to be lower by having the movie playing drive seperate. The lower price on the actual system, which is what they want to sell, is more attractive than if they were forced to bundle.

Agent X · Aug 15, 2006

koam said:
The difference between this and the PS3 is that you're not forced to buy a drive to play movies in HD; it's only an option.

You know, I'm getting sick and tired of reading that consumers are "forced to buy a Blu-ray drive" whenever they choose to buy the PS3. Aren't consumers likewise "forced to buy a DVD drive" whenever they buy an X-Box 360? (Note: I am not talking about the HD-DVD add-on here, but rather the X-Box 360's built-in DVD drive.)

What if X-Box 360 purchasers don't want to play DVD movies in their new system? They still have to pay for the capability anyway. I fail to see what the difference between this and what Sony is doing with Blu-ray in PS3. But, while certan people constantly accuse Sony of shoving unnecessary technology down consumers' throats that has nothing to do with gaming, they seem to give Microsoft a pass on this issue.

Shogmaster · Aug 15, 2006

Moderation Unlimited said:
But as far as how well they've sold, that is a different story. Since the company started reporting how many Ipods it's sold on a quarterly basis (since Q4 in 2002...Ipod launched in 2001), Apple has reported approximately 60 million Ipods sold. That's pretty darn good: half way between XBOX and PlayStation 2 numbers. The Ipod hasn't even been out as long as PS2.

Source

And did you bother to read it in detail? You might then notice that by 2005, only 15M had been sold. Between 2005 and now, the number jumped to 60M. Why? What was introduced in 2005? That's right, the $99 Shuffle.

And that's the whole damn point. The entry cost has everything to do with the mass sales success. As you move closer to the magic $99 pricepoint, the sales increase exponentially. And obviously the converse is true.

acousticvan · Aug 15, 2006

Another bluffing from MS
The price of the HD-DVD will be closer to $100 than $200 since they don't want Sony to reduce the price of the PS3 to $499 and $399 before launch.
I know somebody will accuse me of trolling but what the heck that's my thinking because doing business is just like playing poker.

Shogmaster · Aug 15, 2006

acousticvan said:
Another bluffing from MS
The price of the HD-DVD will be closer to $100 than $200 since they don't want Sony to reduce the price of the PS3 to $499 and $399 before launch.
I know somebody will accuse me of trolling but what the heck that's my thinking because doing business is just like playing poker.

IT'S IN BOLD SO IT MUST BE TRUE!!!

Vyer · Aug 15, 2006

Agent X said:
You know, I'm getting sick and tired of reading that consumers are "forced to buy a Blu-ray drive" whenever they choose to buy the PS3. Aren't consumers likewise "forced to buy a DVD drive" whenever they buy an X-Box 360? (Note: I am not talking about the HD-DVD add-on here, but rather the X-Box 360's built-in DVD drive.)

What if X-Box 360 purchasers don't want to play DVD movies in their new system? They still have to pay for the capability anyway. I fail to see what the difference between this and what Sony is doing with Blu-ray in PS3. But, while certan people constantly accuse Sony of shoving unnecessary technology down consumers' throats that has nothing to do with gaming, they seem to give Microsoft a pass on this issue.

There is absolutely no real comparison there. At this point DVD drives are a standard and do not significantly raise the cost of the system. We're being 'forced' in the sense that it raises the price of the system that some of us want to buy just to play games. In addition, Blu-ray is untested and hardly a standard, and may not even come through this 'format war'. So in a sense we're also being 'forced' to pick a side if all we want to do is play Playstation games.

offtopic · Aug 15, 2006

You know, I'm getting sick and tired of reading that consumers are "forced to buy a Blu-ray drive" whenever they choose to buy the PS3. Aren't consumers likewise "forced to buy a DVD drive" whenever they buy an X-Box 360? (Note: I am not talking about the HD-DVD add-on here, but rather the X-Box 360's built-in DVD drive.)

At this time the difference is a couple orders of magnitude of added cost ($2 v. $200? hehe)? Most people are just speculating on what the PS3 would have cost without the bluray drive and some of them find that annoying because they would prefer just to have a significantly cheaper non-bluray PS3.

DCharlie · Aug 15, 2006

Why don't we look to history to see how well add-ons sell? There is Sega CD, Jaguar CD, 32X, etc....

as far as the plan goes , the HD-DVD drive isn't going to be used for games, it's purely for movies - although, yes, add-ons don't tend to do so well.

If the HD movie demand is there as a lot of firms would have people believe then people who already own an X360 can pick up something that _might_ be cheap to let them play HD disk based content without investing $500 on a HD-DVD machine or a PS3 with Bluray.

Cheerilee · Aug 15, 2006

Xbox360 @ $399 + HD DVD @ $199 = $598

PS3 @ $599 US Dollars = $599

$598 > $599

Xbox wins!

Shogmaster · Aug 15, 2006

ruby_onix said:
Xbox360 @ $399 + HD DVD @ $199 = $598

PS3 @ $599 US Dollars = $599

$598 > $599

Xbox wins!

598 is more than 599? WHAT WEIRD DIMENSION ARE YOU FROM?!?

Luckyman · Aug 15, 2006

Shogmaster said:
A). HD-DVD laser assembly is simpler to manufacture (thus costs less).

I dont think it costs much less. MS will be lucky to get even at $200.

Toshiba is selling at a loss atm. They basically killed OEM-support for HD-DVD with their pricing..

Surreal · Aug 15, 2006

ruby_onix said:
Xbox360 @ $399 + HD DVD @ $199 = $598

PS3 @ $599 US Dollars = $599

$598 > $599

Xbox wins!

You forgot to add in the shipping cost for when the 360 dies. =P

snatches · Aug 15, 2006

DCharlie said:
as far as the plan goes , the HD-DVD drive isn't going to be used for games, it's purely for movies - although, yes, add-ons don't tend to do so well.

If the HD movie demand is there as a lot of firms would have people believe then people who already own an X360 can pick up something that _might_ be cheap to let them play HD disk based content without investing $500 on a HD-DVD machine or a PS3 with Bluray.

Moderation Unlimited · Aug 15, 2006

Shogmaster said:
And did you bother to read it in detail? You might then notice that by 2005, only 15M had been sold. Between 2005 and now, the number jumped to 60M. Why? What was introduced in 2005? That's right, the $99 Shuffle.

And that's the whole damn point. The entry cost has everything to do with the mass sales success. As you move closer to the magic $99 pricepoint, the sales increase exponentially. And obviously the converse is true.

I will agree with you on the ideology, but in practice, we don't have the actual numbers. I found one number, though, for Ipod shuffle. Approximately 1.8 million out of 5.3 million Ipods sold Q2 of 2005 were Ipod shuffles, nearly 2/3 being the more expensive players ($200+). But this is just semantics. I'm saying people will buy if there is perceived value, even at $400, $500, or $600. More people will buy, obviously, if the price point is lower because disposable income barriers go away. Value = functionality/usability per price-point. Value is the equation for a sale.

LiveFromKyoto · Aug 15, 2006

Hunter D said:
Please explain the "illusion of cheaper price." I could have sworn the 360 sells for $300 and $400 and that the PS3 sells for $500 and $600.

The 360 offers less out of the box, Blu Ray is technologically superior and has more studio support. If you compare the add-on 360 Premium with the PS3 premium straight on, PS3 comes out ahead in terms of value, no ifs ands or buts. You're getting proportionately less for your dollar with 360.

DCharlie · Aug 15, 2006

http://www.p0stwh0res.com/images/captainobvious.jpg

i know - but it seems to be floating over peoples heads, so i though i'd just restate it to be on the safe side. :/

I could have sworn the 360 offers less out of the box, and that Blu Ray is technologically superior and has more studio support. If you compare the add-on 360 Premium with the PS3 premium straight on, PS3 comes out ahead in terms of value, no ifs ands or buts.

but why do that?
The lowest you can pay(*) to play X360 games is $299.
The lowest you can pay to play PS3 games is $499.

Regardless of features and benefits of each platform, that's the way the pricing is.

... i really am captain obvious today aren't i?

Shogmaster · Aug 15, 2006

Luckyman said:
I dont think it costs much less. MS will be lucky to get even at $200.

Toshiba is selling at a loss atm. They basically killed OEM-support for HD-DVD with their pricing..

I'm talking about the laser assembly, not the rest of the components Tosh is losing money on the $499 box like the huge casing to house the 2.4GHz P4 , a gig of RAM, and all the componets to cool the thing and be relatively quiet.

Because HD-DVD laser assembly operates at the same distance from the disc surface as normal DVDs, it's much simpler to make then BR laser assembly, which focuses even smaller thus needs to be much closer to the disc surface to reduce read errors.

sportzhead · Aug 15, 2006

Kind of off topic but...

How can Sony sale the PS3 with Blu-ray for $499 and $599, but their own stand alone Blu-ray player cost $1000?

Liquid · Aug 15, 2006

listen. the 360 is in a better position simply because MS isnt trying to cram HD movies down your throat. they are giving you the *option* to buy it. Sony is forcing to take it AND PAY FOR IT whether you want it or not.

Elios83 · Aug 15, 2006

IMO it's a terrible move.
Even not considering that it will bomb as always happened with every expensive add on,on a PR level it just makes customers aware of the kind of added value the PS3 has over Xbox360 as standard.

snatches · Aug 15, 2006

DCharlie said:
i know - but it seems to be floating over peoples heads, so i though i'd just restate it to be on the safe side. :/

yeah, I know, but I couldn't resist. I think the bigger deal here that people are missing is that the way the general public might perceive this if they were looking in the game section of a Best Buy store. I also think that by acknowledging that next gen movies is a factor in this console race they are admitting poor planning and rushing to market.

Obviously we know the score here but I worry about John Q public getting the messages confused.

DCharlie · Aug 15, 2006

listen. the 360 is in a better position simply because MS isnt trying to cram HD movies down your throat. they are giving you the *option* to buy it. Sony is forcing to take it AND PAY FOR IT whether you want it or not.

the one difference this "forcing" does have as far as a gamer is concerned is the fact that bluray _will_ eventually have a positive effect on the games ps3 gamers play. MS's HD-DVD add on, most probably, will not.

It comes down to whether you believe sony are doing this to push a movie only agenda or they have games in mind - as they've been going on about the format being forward thinking and as it has obvious advantages for games devs and gamers, i'm not sure i buy the "forced to buy bluray" angle.

Moderation Unlimited · Aug 15, 2006

sportzhead said:
Kind of off topic but...

How can Sony sale the PS3 with Blu-ray for $499 and $599, but their own stand alone Blu-ray player cost $1000?

Economies of scale and in-house production of the PS3 (components sans BR drive) reduces costs for the decoding portion of what a BR stand-alone video player would normally ship with. The BR optical drive doesn't actually cost that much money to produce. The other components add up to half of the cost (or more).

offtopic · Aug 15, 2006

That said, look for a huge price reduction on the Samsung bluray player.

Shogmaster · Aug 15, 2006

Moderation Unlimited said:
Economies of scale and in-house production of the PS3 (components sans BR drive) reduces costs for the decoding portion of what a BR stand-alone video player would normally ship with. The BR optical drive doesn't actually cost that much money to produce. The other components add up to half of the cost (or more).

Much simpler:

PS3 = losing hundreds of dollars per machine
BR player = making hundreds of dollars per machine

Liquid · Aug 15, 2006

DCharlie said:
the one difference this "forcing" does have as far as a gamer is concerned is the fact that bluray _will_ eventually have a positive effect on the games ps3 gamers play. MS's HD-DVD add on, most probably, will not.

It comes down to whether you believe sony are doing this to push a movie only agenda or they have games in mind - as they've been going on about the format being forward thinking and as it has obvious advantages for games devs and gamers, i'm not sure i buy the "forced to buy bluray" angle.

the positive effect of not having to swap discs? whoop~de~do. The one game so far that you can directly compare across both platforms, full auto, for some reason looks to have taken a hit on the ps3. the textures and color are just washed out. you'd think that extra space would help but in reality it doesnt. It all comes down to the chips and IMO ATI>>>>Nvidia. It was that way on PC and it wont be any different on the consoles. Now ofcourse this has crap to do with how the games or consoles sell but the BR format really doesnt give any advantage at all. or atleast wont for awhile anyway if ever.

snatches · Aug 15, 2006

DCharlie, two questions so I can an idea where you are coming from:

1) Do you think this is a smart move by MS, or do you think they should leave well enough alone and leave the 360 as is?

and

2) Are you happy that Sony included a BluRay drive with the PS3, or would you have rather had a less expensive console with, if necessary, multiple DVD discs to account for growing memory needs in games.

Just curious where you are on these issues.

Moderation Unlimited · Aug 15, 2006

DCharlie said:
It comes down to whether you believe sony are doing this to push a movie only agenda or they have games in mind - as they've been going on about the format being forward thinking and as it has obvious advantages for games devs and gamers, i'm not sure i buy the "forced to buy bluray" angle.

I believe they have both in mind, and both in mind for business reasons. Obviously, they want their next-gen disc format to win to control the home theater market, but they also want to control piracy on PS3 with an expensive medium that is not readily available to churn out burnt media at a cheap price-point. Devs get the added bonus that they can have data redundancy, localized-content, and generally more content/better assets.

snatches · Aug 15, 2006

Moderation Unlimited said:
I believe they have both in mind, and both in mind for business reasons. Obviously, they want their next-gen disc format to win to control the home theater market, but they also want to control piracy on PS3 with an expensive medium that is not readily available to churn out burnt media at a cheap price-point. Devs get the added bonus that they can have data redundancy, localized-content, and generally more content/better assets.

Yeah, cuz all my 360 games are pirated:Rolleyes::

Moderation Unlimited · Aug 15, 2006

Shogmaster said:
Much simpler:

PS3 = losing hundreds of dollars per machine
BR player = making hundreds of dollars per machine

I'm talking about over the life-time of the machine. You are talking about initial COGS.

Moderation Unlimited · Aug 15, 2006

snatches said:
Yeah, cuz all my 360 games are pirated:Rolleyes::

You should be reading the news. China and Korea 360 owners are having a field day burning 360 games.

Shogmaster · Aug 15, 2006

Moderation Unlimited said:
I'm talking about over the life-time of the machine. You are talking about initial COGS.

So you're talking about an hypothetical long term future and I'm talking about immediate future.

MidgarBlowedUp · Aug 15, 2006

Shogmaster said:
BR drive in the PS3 is too slow for streaming.

What is the data transfer rate of the PS3's Blu-ray drive? 2x = 72MB/sec?
Plus every PS3 has a HDD that can be used as well.

The good thing about the br drive is that it's the exact same transfer rate across the board. DVD drives are not, as stated in a recent game developer magazine, so most devs would code the game for the minimum read speed.

Moderation Unlimited · Aug 15, 2006

Shogmaster said:
So you're talking about an hypothetical long term future and I'm talking about immediate future.

Well, I'm talking about the 5 to 10 year future PS3 will enjoy hopefully.

Liquid · Aug 15, 2006

i dont even see how people keep putting sonys "future" in this. you cant keep thinking sony will sell out and everything will be OK. Sony has 2 problems. if BR doesnt take off in 5 years they are screwed. If ps3 doesnt mesh with gamers because of that price for awhile they are screwed again. I mean sony has so much going against them this round it aint even funny. If blu ray flops yeah devs have that extra space but WE are still stuck with a costly drive. its BS.

snatches · Aug 15, 2006

Moderation Unlimited said:
You should be reading the news. China and Korea 360 owners are having a field day burning 360 games.

I guess it is possible but I wouldn't be able to live without my Xbox Live.

Oh, and link please?

DCharlie · Aug 15, 2006

DCharlie, two questions so I can an idea where you are coming from:

1) Do you think this is a smart move by MS, or do you think they should leave well enough alone and leave the 360 as is?

it's an option, and for those interested in HD movies who own a X360 already, this represents a potential bargain. It allows future purchasers to dip their toe in later - although add ons do seem to carry a certain stigma. I personally think it's a good thing - i like choice!

2) Are you happy that Sony included a BluRay drive with the PS3, or would you have rather had a less expensive console with, if necessary, multiple DVD discs to account for growing memory needs in games.

I think as games stand right now, that the extra space afforded by bluray won't really get its full use until a year or two down the line - for me , without meaning to sound too wankish, the price of the PS3 is still within range so the price doesn't concern me in terms of purchase, although the price does concern me in regards to sonys continued success. I've no issue with multi-dvd games though and i don't see the horror situation of swapping disks that some envisage, but again - and speaking out of a position of total ignorance here - if developers DO have to make compromises due to space restrictions and if Bluray helps releave this, then i'm all for its inclusion in a console.

inpHilltr8r · Aug 15, 2006

Shogmaster said:
BR drive in the PS3 is too slow for streaming.

Warning, you're out of your depth again. ;p

Shogmaster · Aug 15, 2006

inpHilltr8r said:
Warning, you're out of your depth again. ;p

I've been out of my depth for the last 7 years, but I've got a pretty good track record regardless. :lol

snatches · Aug 15, 2006

DCharlie said:
it's an option, and for those interested in HD movies who own a X360 already, this represents a potential bargain. It allows future purchasers to dip their toe in later - although add ons do seem to carry a certain stigma. I personally think it's a good thing - i like choice!

You should be in politics. In response to your answer to the first question, as it relates to this thread, how do you think the general public will react to this?

Moderation Unlimited · Aug 15, 2006

snatches said:
I guess it is possible but I wouldn't be able to live without my Xbox Live.

Oh, and link please?

Link

They can't play XBox Live. True. But Eastern tastes are different than Western tastes. Other than MMO's, I don't think the Asian market is way into online game playing.

DCharlie · Aug 15, 2006

You should be in politics. In response to your answer to the first question, as it relates to this thread, how do you think the general public will react to this?

I expect the general public to ignore it.

Logan Cano · Aug 15, 2006

Liquid said:
i dont even see how people keep putting sonys "future" in this. you cant keep thinking sony will sell out and everything will be OK. Sony has 2 problems. if BR doesnt take off in 5 years they are screwed. If ps3 doesnt mesh with gamers because of that price for awhile they are screwed again. I mean sony has so much going against them this round it aint even funny. If blu ray flops yeah devs have that extra space but WE are still stuck with a costly drive. its BS.

Such a drama queen. You think PS3 will be $500 and $600 forever or something?? Price reductions will come, Sony is just positioning the product to allow for more controlled and drastical price reductions to generate more attention when cutting a price.

Moderation Unlimited · Aug 15, 2006

Logan Cano said:
Such a drama queen. You think PS3 will be $500 and $600 forever or something?? Price reductions will come, Sony is just positioning the product to allow for more controlled and drastical price reductions to generate more attention when cutting a price.

Well, it's like this IMO. Sony actually has a lot of control over their own destiny here. If PS3 doesn't move off the shelf quickly enough for Sony's satisfaction, they will be forced to cut their losses and reduce the price. Any other business decision does not make any sense...even if they are losing a lot of money at that particular moment. To keep a product on the shelf that is not selling is suicide, especially when adoption rate and client-base are so important to the business model.

Ponn · Aug 15, 2006

If it is really $200 i'm surprised it isn't more. To those thinking it was going to be cheaper, well...:lol

I actually agree with Snatches for the most part though and think MS should have just stayed the hell out of this format war with the consoles. I know why they think they should get involved, but they are only undermining themselves. For one they make it look like the HD format war is important and that they made a mistake by not waiting and putting it in. In reality I think they did take the best route by not waiting and keeping their system at a good middle of the road price between PS3 and Wii. They are really hitting a pretty large segment of the market. If they would have tried to compete head on with the PS3 in tech they would have been guaranteed a repeat of last gen.

I know people like to yell out "but they give us options", the point is you are paying more just like eating in a restaurant and ordering everything ala carte. And you lose alot of advantages of getting everything together like HDMI, standard drive for games and stuck with a jumble of bulky machines that look like some frankenstein creation. It just doesn't look good for the image which I think is a major thing MS needs to work on. Just forget about this and keep on keeping on with the current price advantage.

Pimpwerx · Aug 15, 2006

Liquid said:
i dont even see how people keep putting sonys "future" in this. you cant keep thinking sony will sell out and everything will be OK. Sony has 2 problems. if BR doesnt take off in 5 years they are screwed. If ps3 doesnt mesh with gamers because of that price for awhile they are screwed again. I mean sony has so much going against them this round it aint even funny. If blu ray flops yeah devs have that extra space but WE are still stuck with a costly drive. its BS.

If BR never sells a single copy, it's still just a proprietary drive for the PS3. It's not gonna sink them anymore than Betamax did in the past, or UMD is doing now. UMD is a niche format that's now being dropped by lots of studios. It's not gonna sink Sony. The BR drive in the PS3 is a storage format for games first, and a movie format after that. Even if there weren't movies, you could still use it for games, so it's not a big deal. The cost of the drive will mean nothing in a very short order. How much did DVD drives cost when they first landed? $1000. How about CD drives? CD burners? DVD burners? MO drives? The list can go on. All drives come in high, but drop fast. Optical drives drop way faster than magnetic media because the medium doesn't change, just the drive components. So the "super-expensive Blu-Ray drive" you're being saddled with will be one of the cheapest components in the box in very short order. PEACE.

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