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PS4 setting for RGB Full Range is broken?

U

Unknown Soldier

Member
Sure seems so to me. Whether I set the RGB setting it to Limited or Full, it's always stuck as Limited. I've already verified this isn't a problem with my TV, receiver, or other sources which are all properly set to Full Range and all properly display, including my PS3 which has been set to Full Range for years now.

Can anyone else verify this is the case and right now RGB Full Range is not functional on PS4? I'm using firmware 1.50.
 
I

Iceblade

Member
I can't verify, but is your TV's RGB range set to Auto? Or do you have it manually set to Full? Because I know that some TVs have problems interpreting whether or not the signal is Full or Limited when set to Auto.
 
R

realcZk

Member
I'm currently using RGB Full range with a LCD monitor and it's definitely working. I notice a huge difference when it's enabled and the setting sticks. (software version 1.50)
 
Pop

Pop

Member
I used full for the Ps3 but Limited for Ps4. I'm using the same monitor.

I noticed with full, it crashes my blacks now. Idk why
 
A

Alo81

Low Poly Gynecologist
OP you're not the only one experiencing issues.

Might be a system fault for some?

Sean*O said:
So I have played around with the PS 4 for about a day now and it seems to have an issue with elevated blacks. When the screen should be pure black it's more like a very dark gray. There seems to be no way to adjust this in the screen and sound options (is there?) and i can't simply adjust my screen brightness to compensate because I'm feeding the PS4 into an audio receiver along with several other video components in my system and then the HDMI out from the receiver is going to a calibrated input on my display.

In short if I adjust my display to look correct for the PS4 output then it screws up every other video source in my system.

I do not have this problem with any other source, only the PS4. I have set the ps4 to full range RGB, limited range, etc before anyone asks.. Nothing gets rid of the gray blacks.

Is anyone else experiencing the same issue? Some of the captured stuff in the wild like the DF Battlefield 4 comparison also showed an elevated black level so it seems to be inherent in the system at this time? Hopefully Sony will release a firmware update to fix? Am I the only one seeing this?
Click to expand...
 
U

Unknown Soldier

Member
Yeah, I have to set my TV back to Limited for the PS4 to show blacks correctly. The Full setting does nothing, it's still stuck in Limited. Ugh, my PS3 doesn't have any problems with this!
 
U

Unknown Soldier

Member
Mutagenic said:
I never know whether to set it at limited or full for my Kuro.
Click to expand...

The briefest summary ever:

Full is best for games, because it has a higher color gamut. Your TV, intermediate devices in output chain like receiver, and source must all support it correctly. Full is the same gamut as what PC monitors have, because that is the PC standard.

Limited makes no difference for movies, because movies are encoded expecting Limited anyways. Color gamut of Blu-ray doesn't magically increase because you force Full, but it also won't hurt anything by doing this. The standard for TVs has always been Limited, and if a TV doesn't specifically have a setting for Full, it's Limited.
 
M

Mutagenic

Permanent Junior Member
Unknown Soldier said:
The briefest summary ever:

Full is best for games, because it has a higher color gamut. Your TV, intermediate devices in output chain like receiver, and source must all support it correctly. Full is the same gamut as what PC monitors have, because that is the PC standard.

Limited makes no difference for movies, because movies are encoded expecting Limited anyways. Color gamut of Blu-ray doesn't magically increase because you force Full, but it also won't hurt anything by doing this. The standard for TVs has always been Limited, and if a TV doesn't specifically have a setting for Full, it's Limited.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I guess I should research if it supports full then.
 
S

StewboaT_

Member
I have to disagree and say that full RGB worked for me. I am, however, going to throw on a calibration disc and see if you're onto something here.
 
S

SoulClap

Member
Mutagenic said:
I never know whether to set it at limited or full for my Kuro.
Click to expand...

Assuming you have the same gen. Kuro that I do, your display will support full range. Just a heads up though there is a bug with the Kuro's auto color space detection where it always defaults to the full range with an RGB output.

Given that I have to increase brightness to take advantage of the extended range which in turn has a negative affect on the black levels, I find that the Kuro is better suited for the limited color space.
 
M

Mutagenic

Permanent Junior Member
SoulClap said:
Assuming you have the same gen. Kuro that I do, your display will support full range. Just a heads up though there is a bug with the Kuro's auto color space detection where it always defaults to the full range with an RGB output.

Given that I have to increase brightness to take advantage of the extended range which in turn has a negative affect on the black levels, I find that the Kuro is better suited for the limited color space.
Click to expand...
Yeah, default seems to work well. Do you play in game or movie mode? I used to always play on game mode for any extra control response time, but lately play in movie for the best possible picture.
 
N

Nerfon

Member
John Caboose said:

I can not understate the importance of using this image to tell whether or not you should have "full" or "limited"!
Click to expand...

Picture it's a grid 7x4 of squares if you can not see most/all the squares raising brightness, you running with a limited range of blacks.
 
A

Alo81

Low Poly Gynecologist
Unknown Soldier said:
Limited makes no difference for movies, because movies are encoded expecting Limited anyways. Color gamut of Blu-ray doesn't magically increase because you force Full, but it also won't hurt anything by doing this. The standard for TVs has always been Limited, and if a TV doesn't specifically have a setting for Full, it's Limited.
Click to expand...

You sure about this?

I have some Bluray's ripped that definitely show a difference between full range and limited range.

XSj28vD.gif
 
S

SoulClap

Member
Mutagenic said:
Yeah, default seems to work well. Do you play in game or movie mode? I used to always play on game mode for any extra control response time, but lately play in movie for the best possible picture.
Click to expand...

Before I unlocked the ISF modes I used either Pure or Movie mode. Sadly I've never seen a game mode on any display that doesn't take a shit on the picture quality.
 
dolabla

dolabla

Member
It works on mine, but RGB full seems to be too dark. I have it set to automatic with the HDMI black level on my tv set to "Low". And it isn't as dark.
 
U

Unknown Soldier

Member
I'm going to try connecting the PS4 directly to my TV bypassing my receiver and see if it behaves any differently. I swear to God I know how to configure my home theater, I haven't had any issues with Full Range until I got my PS4!

And yes, it did come from Amazon. ;_;
 
K

Kalm

Member
Mutagenic said:
I never know whether to set it at limited or full for my Kuro.
Click to expand...

SoulClap said:
Assuming you have the same gen. Kuro that I do, your display will support full range. Just a heads up though there is a bug with the Kuro's auto color space detection where it always defaults to the full range with an RGB output.

Given that I have to increase brightness to take advantage of the extended range which in turn has a negative affect on the black levels, I find that the Kuro is better suited for the limited color space.
Click to expand...

SoulClap said:
Before I unlocked the ISF modes I used either Pure or Movie mode. Sadly I've never seen a game mode on any display that doesn't take a shit on the picture quality.
Click to expand...

Kuro-GAF, as an alternative to Game Mode, try running in PC Mode:

Home Menu -> Setup -> Option ->
- Signal Type: Change to PC
- Video: Change to Color-4 (RGB 0-255)

PC Mode disables all post processing so you'll have lower input lag than any of the video presets, including Game. Also, you'll notice that games scale better (no idea why) and text and UI stuff look much sharper.

The only downside is that PC Mode comes with a horrible grey-scale. (Looks like 8500k+, similar to the Performance video preset). You might actually enjoy that but if you want something closer to 6500k, I use these settings on my 6020fd Kuro:

Contrast: 40
Brightness: +1
Red: +3
Green: -1
Blue: -12

It's not perfect but it's as close as I can get without renting cal' tools.

I hope this helps :)
 
M

Monty Mole

Member
Unknown Soldier said:
Limited makes no difference for movies, because movies are encoded expecting Limited anyways. Color gamut of Blu-ray doesn't magically increase because you force Full, but it also won't hurt anything by doing this. The standard for TVs has always been Limited, and if a TV doesn't specifically have a setting for Full, it's Limited.
Click to expand...
Of course Limited makes no difference for movies, as movies aren't even encoded in RGB. Movies aren't encoded 'expecting limited', they're encoded in YCbCr and this is how they are output to your TV.
 
U

Unknown Soldier

Member
Monty Mole said:
Of course Limited makes no difference for movies, as movies aren't even encoded in RGB. Movies aren't encoded 'expecting limited', they're encoded in YCbCr and this is how they are output to your TV.
Click to expand...

Well, they are encoded to Rec.709, which is the HDTV standard gamut. This specifies 16 as Black and 235 as White, but I doubt anyone cares about this particular detail. My point is that Full Range doesn't unlock a wider color gamut for movies.

Insofar as usage of YCbCr compares to RGB, this doesn't imply one gamut standard or another. It's perfectly possible to send YCbCr with 0 as Black and 255 as White and you can even do this on PC videocards outputting to an HDTV (usually an older one) which otherwise refuses to accept an RGB signal over HDMI.
 
A

Alo81

Low Poly Gynecologist
Thrakier said:
Your TV or your player does not support it if this is your pic.
Click to expand...

Clarify what you mean?

I've tested and both my TV and my monitor work and can display full range content correctly. To make that example I was toggling Full range color mode in my graphics drivers and it was using a bluray rip of The Thing as an example inside VLC.
 
U

Unknown Soldier

Member
Well your first mistake is using VLC, it always fucks something up. Use a player which can manually set the output range like MPC-HC, and properly set output range to match your monitor, and also make sure your video card is outputting the correct range. If you somehow manage to see any difference then, I'll be amazed.
 
U

Unknown Soldier

Member
Well now this is interesting.

Connecting the PS4 directly to the TV causes it to display Full Range correctly. Switching the connection to my receiver makes it fail again.

I know my receiver (Denon AVR-4310CI) doesn't report Full Range correctly over HDMI, which is why I always needed to force Full Range in settings on devices for it to work right. So I've obviously found the problem, the PS4 is not properly forcing Full Range even when I am telling it to force in settings. It's still detecting based on what is reported over HDMI, and ignoring what I am telling it to do.

My PS3 happily accepts forced Full Range, as do my Gaming and Media PCs, and my 360. This problem is isolated to my PS4, but I have no idea who to contact at Sony to report this bug as it should be an easy one to fix in a firmware update. Just force Full Range when I tell it to instead of reading the HDMI signal and overriding my settings.
 
E

Eusis

Member
Always-honest said:
Nice. Lots of people might be surprised.
Click to expand...
I imagine newer TVs will generally support it, but it's good to make sure the options are doing what you think they should be doing, or to not make assumption because it's a computer monitor (they may default to limited) or a newer TV (they have to keep in mind most material ISN'T made with full RGB in mind.) There's also usually the brightness options in games, if you can't ever set that "right" then the TV probably doesn't actually support it.

... I also wonder if they knocked the brightness up to mask the controller light reflecting in the screen.
 
A

Always-honest

Banned
Alo81 said:
Clarify what you mean?

I've tested and both my TV and my monitor work and can display full range content correctly. To make that example I was toggling Full range color mode in my graphics drivers and it was using a bluray rip of The Thing as an example inside VLC.
Click to expand...
This example is just the usual black crush that happens when your screen doesn't support it. People notice more contrast and think it's better, while in fact it's worse. You loose a lot of detail in darker areas
 
L

Lazaro

Member
If you are using a Samsung TV, set HDMI Black Levels to Normal on your TV settings. Samsung TVs confuse the PlayStation FULL RGB signal when its on.
 
T

Thrakier

Member
Alo81 said:
Clarify what you mean?

I've tested and both my TV and my monitor work and can display full range content correctly. To make that example I was toggling Full range color mode in my graphics drivers and it was using a bluray rip of The Thing as an example inside VLC.
Click to expand...

If there is a difference in brightness, your setting is wrong. There shouldn't be. The full picture shows clear signs of black crush. Do the same in a dark scene and you won't see any details anymore. It's definitly not right.
 
S

Sean*O

Member
Unknown Soldier said:
I'm going to try connecting the PS4 directly to my TV bypassing my receiver and see if it behaves any differently. I swear to God I know how to configure my home theater, I haven't had any issues with Full Range until I got my PS4!

And yes, it did come from Amazon. ;_;
Click to expand...

Mine came from Wal Mart, same issue. I had no problems with any other devices but I can not dial out the elevated blacks on my PS4, not from within the PS4 because I know my system is dialed in correctly.
 
A

Alo81

Low Poly Gynecologist
Always-honest said:
This example is just the usual black crush that happens when your screen doesn't support it. People notice more contrast and think it's better, while in fact it's worse. You loose a lot of detail in darker areas
Click to expand...

Thrakier said:
If there is a difference in brightness, your setting is wrong. There shouldn't be. The full picture shows clear signs of black crush. Do the same in a dark scene and you won't see any details anymore. It's definitly not right.
Click to expand...

Err, it's a computer monitor so I'm pretty certain it supports it guys. Even if it didn't, the screenshot was captured with Fraps so it wouldn't have black crush unless my monitor didn't support it AND I was capturing a video output from my monitor.

The only thing I can imagine - if it is black crush - is that VLC is implementing it on it's own.

Also, to the guy who mentioned MPC, yeah I already have been using that for a while. I just used VLC to create the example because I know toggling the depth in my drivers showed a change there.
 
T

Thrakier

Member
Alo81 said:
Err, it's a computer monitor so I'm pretty certain it supports it guys. Even if it didn't, the screenshot was captured with Fraps so it wouldn't have black crush unless my monitor didn't support it AND I was capturing a video output from my monitor.

The only thing I can imagine - if it is black crush - is that VLC is implementing it on it's own.

Also, to the guy who mentioned MPC, yeah I already have been using that for a while. I just used VLC to create the example because I know toggling the depth in my drivers showed a change there.
Click to expand...

Your monitor surely does support it. However, in the pic you posted, it is not working. You can't see the difference between full and limited color space (unless you use some special patterns which make it visible).
 
M

Maninthemirror

Banned
Unknown Soldier said:
Sure seems so to me. Whether I set the RGB setting it to Limited or Full, it's always stuck as Limited. I've already verified this isn't a problem with my TV, receiver, or other sources which are all properly set to Full Range and all properly display, including my PS3 which has been set to Full Range for years now.

Can anyone else verify this is the case and right now RGB Full Range is not functional on PS4? I'm using firmware 1.50.
Click to expand...

must be your tv, working fine on my tv.
 
R

Ricker

Member
Working for me also meaning it stays at full or limited but the problem seems to be the grey blacks...like someone posted,going through a A/V receiver,it's the same for all inputs(1 through 4 for me),you adjust one it adjust all the others but on the PS3,compared to my DVR and 360,the brightness was way too dark,I had to raise it from 50 let's say,that was perfect for the 360 and DVR,to about 60 because it was just darker....now on the PS4,it's the opposite,I have to lower the brightness and adjust the contrast otherwise the darks are just grey(especially noticeable through Netflix if you play the start of Hansel & Gretel let's say)

Setting it to auto(recommended),RGB full or limited or even YcB full or limited sticks but changes absolutly nothing(I have a Sony HDTV that supports everything).
 
A

anddo0

Member
Pop said:
I used full for the Ps3 but Limited for Ps4. I'm using the same monitor.

I noticed with full, it crashes my blacks now. Idk why
Click to expand...

I just noticed this play KZ. Holy crap what happened?

My tv Sony Bravia kdl-xbr2 46. Everything worked with PS3. In order to get the PS4 to display correctly I have to crank the brightness up to 80 (opposed to 62 for limited). My PS3 is set to full and brightness 62, and the blacks aren't crushed at all. The detail lost on PS4 while using full is like night and day, the blacks are that bad.
 
H

haikira

Member
Kalm said:
Kuro-GAF, as an alternative to Game Mode, try running in PC Mode:

Home Menu -> Setup -> Option ->
- Signal Type: Change to PC
- Video: Change to Color-4 (RGB 0-255)

PC Mode disables all post processing so you'll have lower input lag than any of the video presets, including Game. Also, you'll notice that games scale better (no idea why) and text and UI stuff look much sharper.
Click to expand...

PC mode is the only way I can stop overscan occurring with 720p games, on my 500A. Found it annoying with GTA5, since they only have a toggle for the UI. So I had to pick between calibrated image or no overscan.

Cheers for your colour settings though, as they seem an improvement on my set, for PC mode.
 
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