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On Indie Game Pricing (Axiom Verge devs)

nynt9

Member
Edit: Tom is the "Axiom Verge dev", Dan is the PR guy for the game, if a mod can update the title to something appropriate that would be cool.

http://dan-adelman.com/post/112239049886/on-indie-game-pricing

Most of the feedback has been great, but there were a few people who questioned the $19.99 price point. The reason I’m writing this blog post is actually not to defend the price. Instead, my focus is going to be on discussing the thinking behind it, since a lot of developers have asked me for advice on how to approach pricing their games over the years.

Complication #1: Games are an experiential good

One of the biggest problems is that games are in a category referred to as experiential goods, meaning that people can’t attach a value to them until they’ve experienced them.

Complication #2: Self-interest vs. group-interest – the problem with price promotions

Imagine you’re at a baseball game. Something important is going on, so you stand up to get a better look. That’s a perfectly rational thing to do. It maximizes your own self-interest. Now the person behind you also has a choice: either stay seated and not see, or stand up to see better. If they’re going to maximize their own self-interest, they’re going to choose to stand. And so on. Eventually, everyone is standing, but no one is seeing any better than they did before. Everyone’s just uncomfortable.

The same goes with price promotions. (I’ll avoid calling them sales so as not to confuse the term with sales of the game.) When sales have slowed down, the rational thing to do is to reduce your price. Each game that does this makes a lot of money – in fact the majority of their money – doing this. Gabe Newell famously told the world in 2011 that when they reduced their price by 75% their revenue went up by 40x!

So What’s the Solution?

The first step in the real solution to the problem comes before even thinking about price. It’s about making a must-play game. Obviously this is something all developers aspire to and is much easier said than done. But let’s assume you’ve done that. What’s step two?

Step two is to make sure people know about the game and why it’s special.

[...]


The last step is two-fold. First, set a price that you feel is really worth it. If your game is better (for the people you think will be interested in buying your game!) than Titanfall, The Order: 1886, or Destiny – and you can convince people of this – then let those prices be your bar.

The second part is a bit counterintuitive. Let people know your plans for putting the game on sale.

Case Study: How Does Axiom Verge stack up on these steps?

[just read the article, it's pretty long]

A lot more at the post. It's a long post so you should go read it, it's a good read.
 

Wiktor

Member
I don't mind paying quite lot for indie game. But if you're trying to charge 2-5 times more for a pc version that's identical to mobile one you can go and screw yourself. You lost me as consumer of full priced games you release.
 

nynt9

Member
I don't mind paying quite lot for indie game. But if you're trying to charge 2-5 times more for a pc version that's identical to mobile one you can go and screw yourself. You lost me as consumer of full priced games you release.

What is this in reference to?
 

SerTapTap

Member
I wouldn't say "Axiom Verge devs" in the title...Dan is Axiom's PR guy, Tom Happ did 100% of the dev on Axiom.

Personally I think the $20 price point is fine, think it should be more common for indie games of the quality/polish/length of Verge (judging from the "15%" I've played myself, I'm going to guess 8-10+ hours for a first run?). $15 isn't a bad "standard" but it's annoying to see so much fuss over what's a fairly minor deviation from it. I want to see more $20 games, and I also want to see more $10 games. When I played Forward To The Sky ($8, fairly short, cute, fun, not super polished) I quite enjoyed it and I hope games like that have a space too. And I think it's perfectly fine for Axiom Verge to be a fair bit pricier, too.

How sales fit into it all is a bit irksome for me. I don't like major, frequent, early discounts that train people against buying early. Seeing a game at 50% off a couple months later makes me think I shouldn't buy that dev's games, not at launch, no no no. But a ~10% discount like lots of Steam games or PS+ discounts will get you seems minor enough to be a nice bonus but not really push the needle too far.

I don't mind paying quite lot for indie game. But if you're trying to charge 2-5 times more for a pc version that's identical to mobile one you can go and screw yourself. You lost me as consumer of full priced games you release.

Not exactly relevant to Dan's post IMO but I do agree it's super annoying to see games readily priced more than double on PC for identical content compared to mobile. But Axiom wasn't/isn't mobile and Dan doesn't talk about anything like this in the post...
 

Bebpo

Banned
My personal stance is that $20-30 is fine for indie games that are A) low production values & really good (ie vvvvv, cave story original, la mulana) or B) moderate production values and would be a $50-60 AAA game except for length (3d stuff with nice visuals like Ethan Carter or stuff like Shadowrun Returns).

But when it's low production values (NES-style retro visuals) & quality unknown it's hard to jump in blindly with pricing that high.
 

SerTapTap

Member
All I can think of is Angry Birds and the like.

Angry Birds is pretty damn extreme, but some indies have done it with late PC ports as well. Not to name and shame but Final Dusk and Out There Omega Edition are both a bit over double their mobile prices on PC (out there is in Beta but I think that's the final price). I can't really say the games aren't worth the PC prices, they're not bad or anything, but the same game, in it's intended control scheme no less, is less than half the price on a different platform. That's a bit shitty IMO.

Also a few Vita games came from Mobile and went high price, can't remember examples as I didn't buy 'em.

My personal stance is that $20-30 is fine for indie games that are A) low production values & really good (ie vvvvv, cave story original, la mulana) or B) moderate production values and would be a $50-60 AAA game except for length (3d stuff with nice visuals like Ethan Carter or stuff like Shadowrun Returns).

But when it's low production values (NES-style retro visuals) & quality unknown it's hard to jump in blindly with pricing that high.

Trying not to be too biased, but if NES and unknown quality is in reference to Axiom, there's quite a bit of coverage of the early game already to make a good guess about quality and the visuals are IMO extremely well done. "quality unknown" is an odd caveat. How can release price reflect popular opinion before, you know, public release?
 

nynt9

Member
General thought about indie pricing :) This kind of dirty exploitation has become very common these days.

To my knowledge very few indie games go from mobile to PC so I still have no idea what this is about...

And different marketplaces have different pricing structures so it makes total sense and is in line with the ideas in the post.

But Axiom wasn't/isn't mobile and Dan doesn't talk about anything like this in the post...

.
 

HarryKS

Member
All that blabla is for naught. It's pretty basic economics. Going by wwhat category this game belongs to, the price appears too high.
 

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
My personal stance is that $20-30 is fine for indie games that are A) low production values & really good (ie vvvvv, cave story original, la mulana) or B) moderate production values and would be a $50-60 AAA game except for length (3d stuff with nice visuals like Ethan Carter or stuff like Shadowrun Returns).

But when it's low production values (NES-style retro visuals) & quality unknown it's hard to jump in blindly with pricing that high.

Fuck this. Seriously, just because it has retro visuals does not mean it has low production values. This shit needs to stop.
 

Einbroch

Banned
Vocal in the other thread about this, but I'll say this here: It's incredibly hard to price a game. Axiom Verge may be worth $30 to you, $10 to the next person, and $0.99 to the third.

I don't think anyone should say the devs are greedy or money groveling. They price what they think it's worth. I personally will try this game at $10 or less because it's a genre that, while I can enjoy, I'm not a huge fan of. The videos haven't sold me on the $20 price point.
 

nynt9

Member
All that blabla is for naught. It's pretty basic economics. Going by wwhat category this game belongs to, the price appears too high.

What category do you posit the game belongs to? And do all games in the same category deserve the same price?
 
Honestly, I don't see why $20 is a big deal. This game looks incredible, I hate reading people trash talk a game because of its visual representation.
 

Z3M0G

Member
Just because it's an indie game doesn't mean it couldn't be worth X dollars...

If the game is worth $20, it's worth $20.

And this game sure damn looks and plays like it is worth $20.
 
I think people in general have a bit of a shortsighted judgement when they see Pixel Art and higher price points - I guess for most people pixel art equals cheap and that's just silly.

Ori and the Blind Forest is releasing 2 weeks before Axiom Verge and I'm hoping the game is awesome, will definitely get it. The little demo I played was already really damn good.
 

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
What are you talking about bro! My MSPaint skills are the bomb and I need to charge $60 for it!

You're right btw lol.

5PzjaIS.jpg


12 Million Dollars please
 

beril

Member
I wish I'll someday have the confidence to charge $10 or more for a game. I should probably make a game that's longer than an hour first though
 

Bebpo

Banned
Fuck this. Seriously, just because it has retro visuals does not mean it has low production values. This shit needs to stop.

True, but it's not being released in a vacuum. Axiom has competition and other games with similar visual styles, production values, tilesets from indie developers have been and are still selling for usually free->$15. At $20, they're pricing their game higher than 99% of other games that look similar in visual quality. So it better be a better game than those 99% or it's overpriced for the competition.

In general I think the sales for the game are gonna be pretty bad at launch. People don't watch videos, they see screenshots on the store page and people are used to paying <$15 for games that look like Axiom. I think $20 is gonna be a hard sell unless it gets tremendous word of mouth and awards everywhere. But more power to them if they do well. I'll grab it if the reviews are good.
 

nynt9

Member
True, but it's not being released in a vacuum. Axiom has competition and other games with similar visual styles, production values, tilesets from indie developers have been and are still selling for usually free->$15. At $20, they're pricing their game higher than 99% of other games that look similar in visual quality. So it better be a better game than those 99% or it's overpriced for the competition.

In general I think the sales for the game are gonna be pretty bad at launch. People don't watch videos, they see screenshots on the store page and people are used to paying <$15 for games that look like Axiom. I think $20 is gonna be a hard sell unless it gets tremendous word of mouth and awards everywhere. But more power to them if they do well. I'll grab it if the reviews are good.

Is visual style the only thing determining the price of a game? If so why do indies like Vanishing of Ethan Carter and such with high visual fidelity cost less than AAA games? Rhetorical question obviously.
 

hawk2025

Member
Dan -- if you read this:


Thank you for making the Economics-based, straightforward, but still pleasant and easy to understand version of a GAF thread I've been thinking about for a while now.

GAF -- read this, process it, and half of the posts regarding pricing and value in review threads should instantly disappear.

Incredible blog post, and I do not say this lightly. Dan has put the intuition of decades of economics (both theory and empirical) into an easy to read, fun blog post and applied it pretty precisely to videogames.
 
I don't mind paying quite lot for indie game. But if you're trying to charge 2-5 times more for a pc version that's identical to mobile one you can go and screw yourself. You lost me as consumer of full priced games you release.

You must be the world's fastest speed reader to have read that entire essay in less than three minutes. ;)


On topic: I think it is a fascinating write up, and I agree that it is up to the developer/publisher to make sure that we as consumers understand why a game is worth our money. It is an interesting strategy to announce that there will be no post-launch week discounts for six months.

Looking forward to the reviews. :)
 

J-Skee

Member
Tom Happ made this game for 5 years by himself. I was going to buy this game even if it was $30. People act like their fast food purchases don't add up to over $50 during the course of a week.
 

Bebpo

Banned
Is visual style the only thing determining the price of a game? If so why do indies like Vanishing of Ethan Carter and such with high visual fidelity cost less than AAA games? Rhetorical question obviously.

Length. Most indie games with moderate to high visual quality are 1-5 hours in length. Most AAA games with that level of visuals are usually around 12-30 hours in length and also sports more variety to fill that time.

Like I said I'm fine paying $30 for indie stuff that's high quality and half the length of a $60 AAA game.

Tom Happ made this game for 5 years by himself. I was going to buy this game even if it was $30. People act like their fast food purchases don't add up to over $50 during the course of a week.

You can use this argument for a ton of games. A lot of small developers spend 3/4/5 years on these games. A lot of this is just marketing too. If Happ spent all this time, shouldn't he want to make the most money possible? If you're gonna sell far more copies at $15 than at $20 where the game hardly sells and gets forgotten then financially it's the wrong choice. But I don't work in marketing so maybe it'll do well at $20.
 

OneUh8

Member
Dan -- if you read this:


Thank you for making the Economics-based, straightforward, but still pleasant and easy to understand version of a GAF thread I've been thinking about for a while now.

GAF -- read this, process it, and half of the posts regarding pricing and value in review threads should instantly disappear.

Incredible blog post, and I do not say this lightly. Dan has put the intuition of decades of economics (both theory and empirical) into an easy to read, fun blog post and applied it pretty precisely to videogames.

Yeah it is an incredible read.
 

SerTapTap

Member
It is an interesting strategy to announce that there will be no post-launch week discounts for six months.

I wish more devs would do this actually. Transparency is great. I'm currently a bit miffed at Idea Factory International because while I love them bringing their games to PC, I do not like them being extremely unclear which games, and when, and at what price they will come when their Vita versions all have clear release dates and launch at full retail price of course.

If I could buy at day one with confidence the price wouldnt' go lower within a moderate stretch of time I'd probably do it more often. It's why I'm not too afraid to buy Nintendo games at launch after all.
 
Hopefully it has a demo because the price is a bit of a turn off and the WE MADE A RETRO PLATFORMER WITH A TWIST thing had been done to death.
 

danowat

Banned
Complication #2: Self-interest vs. group-interest – the problem with price promotions

Maybe I've interpreted it incorrectly, but are they saying that the price point is set high so that when a price reduction comes, and the revenue increases the income is better?
 

SerTapTap

Member
Maybe I've interpreted it incorrectly, but are they saying that the price point is set high so that when a price reduction comes, and the revenue increases the income is better?

That's not how I read it at all. He's saying if you keep feeding the race to the bottom you're only digging yourself in deeper. Did you read the whole section? Not really sure how you came to that conclusion. It's entirely about not reducing prices OR starting at a low price to avoid devaluation.
 
General thought about indie pricing :) This kind of dirty exploitation has become very common these days.
I never understand this rationale. Most people won't pay even a few bucks for a game on mobile. Thus you get this race the bottom pricing of $3, $1, free.

Why should an indie dev who moves to PC remain confined by that ass-backwards consumer mentality? If a game on IOS is $1 and the PC port is $5, the devs are being greedy?
 

nynt9

Member
I never understand this rationale. Most people won't pay even a few bucks for a game on mobile. Thus you get this race the bottom pricing of $3, $1, free.

Why should an indie dev who moves to PC remained confined by that ass-backwards consumer mentality? If a game on IOS is $1 and the PC port is $5, the devs are being greedy?

Agreed. It's like saying "AAA games cost $20 in Russia so the $60 price in the west is price gouging"

Different markets have different entry points.
 
Although the article is well written and has some good points, I disagree with his conclusions.

The last step is two-fold. First, set a price that you feel is really worth it. If your game is better (for the people you think will be interested in buying your game!) than Titanfall, The Order: 1886, or Destiny – and you can convince people of this – then let those prices be your bar. Don’t necessarily feel constrained by what other indies are doing. (Again, this has been debated ad nauseam, but the term “indie” has lost a lot of its meaning. It can mean anything from hobbyist learning how to program to Double Fine. So why try to fit to such a wide range of games?)

I think this is seriously flawed for two big reasons.

1 - As the developer, you're inherently biased in favor of your game's quality & worth. What you feel your game is really worth is almost guaranteed to be more than what your average potential buyer feels its worth.

2 - Best case scenario here is that you set your game for what you think it's really worth, customers agree with you, and your pricing has no positive or negative effect on sales. That's a weak best case outcome. Pricing should have a positive effect on sales.

Instead, I think you should set your game's price at what you think would be a good deal for the game. This helps to counter-act your own bias and it also makes the game's good price another point in the game's favor for prospective buyers.

A few other issues with the article:

Yes, with proper marketing, you can make the expected value of your game higher. Unfortunately, the only way you can reliably do this for mainstream customers is through the kind of marketing that indie developers just don't have access to. And hey, this explains why AAA productions can easily get away with charging $60 for a game (regardless of quality) whereas the best game made by a small indie team is going to be scrutinized if they go as high as $20. Articles, interviews, and conference appearances are valuable for getting the word out to the diehards and in turn, increasing your chance of being covered by reviewers, but they do little towards your mainstream visibility.

And bringing up Nintendo is irrelevant to an indie game pricing discussion. Nintendo has spent hundreds of millions of dollars over the course of decades cultivating an image of a developer who creates must-play, high quality games that often retain price.
 

Duster

Member
I agree with the part about letting people know about plans for futures sales and more specifically if it will be on PS+.

I've been annoyed when buying an indy game at a launch that gets added to PS+ within a few months and that's stopped me from buying a few recently. If there was something from the developer saying a game won't be added to the service for at least a year I'd be more likely to buy at launch.
I'm sure there are many others that feel the same about sales.

Also personally speaking I have a limit of what I'm willing to spend on a digital product.
 

danowat

Banned
That's not how I read it at all. He's saying if you keep feeding the race to the bottom you're only digging yourself in deeper. Did you read the whole section? Not really sure how you came to that conclusion. It's entirely about not reducing prices OR starting at a low price to avoid devaluation.

The same goes with price promotions. (I&#8217;ll avoid calling them sales so as not to confuse the term with sales of the game.) When sales have slowed down, the rational thing to do is to reduce your price. Each game that does this makes a lot of money &#8211; in fact the majority of their money &#8211; doing this. Gabe Newell famously told the world in 2011 that when they reduced their price by 75% their revenue went up by 40x!

That statement says the following things.

1) Sales will slowdown regardless of your price point
2) Prices will be reduced when sales slow down
3) Revenue increases when the price is reduced, infact the majority of revenue comes from a price reduction.

To me, it makes sense to release your work right at the top end of what you think it viable, so when the obligatory price cut comes, your revenue will increase more than if you'd priced at a more viable price point.
 

SerTapTap

Member
Instead, I think you should set your game's price at what you think would be a good deal for the game. This helps to counter-act your own bias and it also makes the game's good price another point in the game's favor for prospective buyers.

I don't think this is any less inherently biased than "what you think it's worth". If you price it at $15 which is a good deal to you, you can still be way disconnected from what your fans consider a good deal. The difference between "worth it" and "good deal" varies a lot between person to person too. A lot of people only buy games if they think they're a "good deal" so for them they may in fact be basically the same. I don't think there's any simple way to determine either good deal or "just barely worth it".

I never understand this rationale. Most people won't pay even a few bucks for a game on mobile. Thus you get this race the bottom pricing of $3, $1, free.

Why should an indie dev who moves to PC remain confined by that ass-backwards consumer mentality? If a game on IOS is $1 and the PC port is $5, the devs are being greedy?

Mobile pricing is ass-backwards indeed, but they have already priced the exact same product with the exact same features in a market I can easily access, I think it's plenty fair to judge their PC price based on that. If you want to fight shitty pricing IMO you should go whole hog, not just do it where you think you can get away with it. Honestly my problem is more with the mobile price than the PC price, but I think trying to have it both ways is a bit iffy. It's certainly not going to endear me to the dev.

That statement says the following things.

1) Sales will slowdown regardless of your price point
2) Prices will be reduced when sales slow down
3) Revenue increases when the price is reduced, infact the majority of revenue comes from a price reduction.

To me, it makes sense to release your work right at the top end of what you think it viable, so when the obligatory price cut comes, your revenue will increase more than if you'd priced at a more viable price point.

The immediately following paragraph shows why he's not super bullish on deep frequent sales though. I think the point is more if extreme, constant sale prices weren't the norm, lifelong AND launch sales at higher prices would be better. I think the "no sales for 6 months", explicitly stated is the best way to go. Even if they do have a sale, you had advanced warning but you can buy in confidence that you won't be made a fool of by the game being 50% off just a couple months later.
 

Timeaisis

Member
I have no problem with indie devs charging more for their games.

Games are expensive to make. I will gladly pay $20 for an enjoyable experience. I will also, gladly pay $60 for an enjoyable, long-lasting experience. I hope indie games get more expensive. They deserve a realistic revenue model, and not the shitty race to the bottom we have now.
 
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