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Goodstyle · May 30, 2015

Ever hear of the phrase "White Feminism"? I wasn't aware of it until recently, but apparently feminism as a whole is a worryingly white-centric movement. Something that is meant to be about all women finding equality seems to be centred around only white women doing so.

A lot of what I read on this subject came from the backlash against the Emma Watson speach that until just recently I thought everyone loved. Really had me thinking about the feminist movement as a whole, and I think I agree with the fact that it may be too concerned with educated upper-class white women.

Fascinating statistics like the fact that white women make more than black and hispanic men do on the hour but most conversations about wage gaps seem to be about white men and white women came up. Same deal with how sexual assault is an issue heavily entrenched with black women yet most discussion about it seems to be by and for white women. All of this is really blowing my mind tbh.

Here's a couple of articles about this subject:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...n-more-divided-by-race-than-you-think/281175/

http://uncsiren.com/emma-watson-gave-lesson-basic-white-feminism-bored/

The Technomancer · May 30, 2015

It is a large concern. Its why "intersectional feminism" came about.

kirblar · May 30, 2015

A lot of what I read on this subject came from the backlash against the Emma Watson speach that until just recently I thought everyone loved. Really had me thinking about the feminist movement as a whole, and I think I agree with the fact that it may be too concerned with educated upper-class white women.

It should be pointed out that this isn't limited to feminism- politics in general are warped around the upper-middle class and higher because they have the free time and money to worry about such things. It's what leads to things like the mortgage interest tax deduction existing, despite it being an economic negative.

Slayven · May 30, 2015

The Technomancer said:
It is a large concern. Its why "intersectional feminism" came about.

bingo

Marauder Shields · May 30, 2015

Thanks for the thread, was very interesting to read.

The Technomancer · May 30, 2015

In some ways this does come down to a generational thing as well, in my experience older feminist groups tend to be more segregating while "millennial feminism" is more concerned with intersectionality.

entremet · May 30, 2015

From an observational point of view, many women of color just don't relate with modern feminism, although they have reaped benefits from it.

Even online, its seems mostly a debate among white people.

There are black feminists, but they're not too prominent honestly.

richiek · May 30, 2015

entrement said:
From an observational point of view, many women of color just don't relate with modern feminism, although they have reaped benefits from it.

Even online, its seems mostly a debate among white people.

There are black feminists, but they're not too prominent honestly.

I've heard that people of color also tend to be marginalized in the LGBT movement as well.

travisbickle · May 30, 2015

Is an abstract concept interpreted differently by different people actually another abstract concept interpreted differently by different people?

Also is racism feminist?

Peru · May 30, 2015

\Modern Feminism\ is a lot of things. White people in general have a tendency to focus on their issues above all and no, that's no good. But those issues are also worthy issues. A gender wage gap is an important issue in a place where an ethnicity wage gap also exists. It's possible to have two thoughts in your head at once. But it's true that feminism needs to be all-inclusive.

Your thread title makes no sense though, and is like asking "is anti-racism sexist?"

excelsiorlef · May 30, 2015

Is there a racist prob;em within feminism, uh yeah duh. Again what other said that's what inter-sectional feminism is for.

To extrapolate that to Modern feminism is racist is too vitriolic.

Mrs. Manky · May 30, 2015

The Technomancer said:
It is a large concern. Its why "intersectional feminism" came about.

Yup. The OP should also look up the fallout from Patricia Arquette's comments after the Oscars.

The women that are considered the mothers of the feminist movement here in the States tended to be well educated and/or well to do white women. When a person hears the word 'feminist', the image, positive or negative, is probably of a white woman. So the women of color, and the transwomen, in the movement tend to be ignored. And their concerns tend to be ignored.

One example of the split is the Slutwalks. Many white feminists were down with the Slutwalks as an empowering way to embrace their sexuality and take power away from the male gaze by calling themselves 'sluts'. But there were feminists of color who didn't like the slutwalks because they are already considered by society to be loose, easy, and exotic because of the race/gender combo, as per this letter: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/susan-brison/slutwalk-black-women_b_980215.html

captive · May 30, 2015

What was the Emma Watson speech?

Does some of this have to do with other cultures and women's role in the family and society?

entremet · May 30, 2015

Mrs. Manky said:
Yup. The OP should also look up the fallout from Patricia Arquette's comments after the Oscars.

The women that are considered the mothers of the feminist movement here in the States tended to be well educated and/or well to do white women. When a person hears the word 'feminist', the image, positive or negative, is probably of a white woman. So the women of color, and the transwomen, in the movement tend to be ignored. And their concerns tend to be ignored.

One example of the split is the Slutwalks. Many white feminists were down with the Slutwalks as an empowering way to embrace their sexuality and take power away from the male gaze by calling themselves 'sluts'. But there were feminists of color who didn't like the slutwalks because they are already considered by society to be loose, easy, and exotic because of the race/gender combo, as per this letter: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/susan-brison/slutwalk-black-women_b_980215.html

Yeah. There are vast cultural differences at play here which leads to the conflict. It's also why feminism itself should avoid being this catchall movement where everyone must step in line completely. The world is too nuanced for that.

RastaMentality · May 30, 2015

Wow I always felt like this was the case, but I never knew there were stats to back it up.

DoktorEvil · May 30, 2015

Modern Feminism as an ideal and as a group is lost on me.

I mean, I am all for Suffrage movements and pro-labor and fighting for fair rights to equalize a chauvinistic world, but most of the stuff that's posted on social media as feminist movements seem petty at best.

Also, that thread title is confusing as all hell.

captive said:
What was the Emma Watson speech?

Does some of this have to do with other cultures and women's role in the family and society?

Last year or so Emma Watson gave a speech at the UN regarding feminism. Its worth a watch. Really moving speech.

NoblesseOblige · May 30, 2015

I feel like women of color feel the pressure of racism before the effects of sexism, so it would make sense that they would focus on racial issues before sex and gender. That said, every feminist I know personally is just as conscious of institutionalized racism as they are sexism, and they work to ending both.

Hipster Cthulhu · May 30, 2015

Racism implies some sort of intentional exclusion, while the reality is that these social groups wildly differ in what they consider important social issues and what feminism stands for.

Agent Gibbs · May 30, 2015

DoktorEvil said:
Modern Feminism as an ideal and as a group is lost on me.

I mean, I am all for Suffrage movements and pro-labor and fighting for fair rights to equalize a chauvinistic world, but most of the stuff that's posted on social media as feminist movements seem petty at best.

Also, that thread title is confusing as all hell.

Last year or so Emma Watson gave a speech at the UN regarding feminism. Its worth a watch. Really moving speech.

I'm with you on all of that, at my heart i want equality for all regardless of skin colour or gender, but modern feminism or the most extremes that gets the most press is just an alien concept that seems to selectively discriminate and at its worst want a complete subjugation or eradication of one of the sexes

So the fact that its considered that a branch of feminism is racist doesn't surprise me one bit, Feminism is very fractured as a movement in general though

Hipster Cthulhu said:
Racism implies some sort of intentional exclusion, while the reality is that these social groups wildly differ in what they consider important social issues and what feminism stands for.

but this is a very good point that is often ignored (unintentionally and intentionally out of fear of causing offense), some social and ethinics groups have very different cultures where what is a major issue for one, may be something of nothing for another

akira28 · May 30, 2015

Feminism in 19th and 20th century America was pretty intentionally exclusive.

It was intended to be a conversation between white men and white women. Everyone else was still locked in their particular corners.

BreezyLimbo · May 30, 2015

RastaMentality said:
Wow I always felt like this was the case, but I never knew there were stats to back it up.

I figured as much with those stats. And the speech given at the oscars was just embarrassing in hindsight.

Alienous · May 30, 2015

Hipster Cthulhu said:
Racism implies some sort of intentional exclusion, while the reality is that these social groups wildly differ in what they consider important social issues and what feminism stands for.

Does it?

It think it's more implicative of an inherent bias that leads to accidental ostracising. 'Institutional' rather than intentional.

Social issues that are definitely issues of equality (particularly between men and women) but aren't being addressed in 'modern feminism', perhaps due to the affiliation of those issues with certain social groups, is the kind of racism by proxy that could lead this notion of "white feminism".

biggersmaller · May 30, 2015

Implying feminists are racist or feminism is white-centered is absurd if the conclusion is based around what seems to be to white liberal guilt run amok. I'm a feminist. I know a lot of feminists. I've taken women studies courses. I've been employed by inner-city women's organizations. I've read feminist literature.

Never have I seen race addressed, other than to support minorities. Why must the truly well intentioned liberal side of the race debates have to constantly splinter and turn on themselves by making everyone a racist? Eventually the term loses the impact it needs for those who truly deserve it.

NoblesseOblige · May 30, 2015

I'm also super confused as to what the hell people mean when they say "modern feminism"? Is it a less-than-genuine generalization of 'feminism' based upon social media? Because that's silly and if someone spent 5 minutes with academic feminists they'd know that.

PK Gaming · May 30, 2015

Your thread title was a bad idea. Should have put "white-centred" or something else.

The Technomancer · May 30, 2015

NoblesseOblige said:
I'm also super confused as to what the hell people mean when they say "modern feminism"? Is it a less-than-genuine generalization of 'feminism' based upon social media? Because that's silly and if someone spent 5 minutes with academic feminists they'd know that.

It would be much more accurate to say that feminism has historically always had issues with race and class. Its not at all unique to modern feminism, and modern feminism is the most aware to it its ever been

Transhuman · May 30, 2015

NoblesseOblige said:
I'm also super confused as to what the hell people mean when they say "modern feminism"? Is it a less-than-genuine generalization of 'feminism' based upon social media? Because that's silly and if someone spent 5 minutes with academic feminists they'd know that.

The academic feminists can be even worse. At least the online "flash-in-the-pan" stuff comes from ignorance. It goes way deeper than that for the kinds of radical feminists who hate trans-women on the basis that they're claiming a right to oppression they don't deserve and who claim they aren't in fact women.

Mrs. Manky · May 30, 2015

NoblesseOblige said:
I'm also super confused as to what the hell people mean when they say "modern feminism"? Is it a less-than-genuine generalization of 'feminism' based upon social media? Because that's silly and if someone spent 5 minutes with academic feminists they'd know that.

This may be a reference to the different 'waves' of feminism. What Susan B. Anthony was striving for was slightly different from the goals of Gloria Steinem. So 'modern feminism' is the newest wave.

And there are plenty of white feminists who understand and talk about intersectionality. Devolution was one of them.

ItWasMeantToBe19 · May 30, 2015

I don't think White Feminism is really the most modern feminism. White Feminism has been around since the suffrage movement.

Infinite · May 30, 2015

PK Gaming said:
Your thread title was a bad idea. Should have put "white-centred" or something else.

Mainly because people get unreasonably defensive whenever the word is invoked even when it fits.

deli2000 · May 30, 2015

Infinite said:
Mainly because people get unreasonably defensive whenever the word is invoked even when it fits.

Which is part of the problem, many people just straight up refuse to acknowledge this as an issue because they feel personally attacked.

Chichikov · May 30, 2015

Feminists can be racists, though most of them aren't.
With that being said, some well meaning feminists focus only on gender while ignoring other axes of oppression/domination (which do not end at race by the way). That's a problem.
Though many feminist thinkers address that very issue; I would start with Patricia Hill Collins.

DoktorEvil said:
Modern Feminism as an ideal and as a group is lost on me.

I mean, I am all for Suffrage movements and pro-labor and fighting for fair rights to equalize a chauvinistic world, but most of the stuff that's posted on social media as feminist movements seem petty at best.

Also, that thread title is confusing as all hell.

Social media does not represent modern feminism as an ideal.
Thanks god for that.

theJohann · May 30, 2015

Mrs. Manky said:
Devolution was one of them.

Out of curiosity, why has she stopped posting?

Infinite · May 30, 2015

theJohann said:
Out of curiosity, why has she stopped posting?

I can't answer this question but Devo got a lot if toxic shit here and elsewhere just for being matter of fact about her opinions on such issues. That and probably real life taking over.

Transhuman · May 30, 2015

PK Gaming said:
Your thread title was a bad idea. Should have put "white-centred" or something else.

A failure to be inclusive of many races is racist.

Goodstyle · May 30, 2015

PK Gaming said:
Your thread title was a bad idea. Should have put "white-centred" or something else.

Ya my bad. I sound really click baity here.

biggersmaller · May 30, 2015

Infinite said:
Mainly because people get unreasonably defensive whenever the word is invoked even when it fits.

People become defensive when a group they identify with is being mislabeled as a racist movement.

Goodstyle · May 30, 2015

Transhuman said:
A failure to be inclusive of many races is racist.

Or I was right from the start! I don't know, this is a really complex issue and I feel like I need to get more educated on it.

Zaraki_Kenpachi · May 30, 2015

Peru said:
Modern Feminism is a lot of things. White people in general have a tendency to focus on their issues above all and no, that's no good. But those issues are also worthy issues. A gender wage gap is an important issue in a place where an ethnicity wage gap also exists. It's possible to have two thoughts in your head at once. But it's true that feminism needs to be all-inclusive.

Your thread title makes no sense though, and is like asking "is anti-racism sexist?"

:lol at this being some disgusting white thing. EVERY group focuses on themselves first. Black's aren't speaking out on Hispanics treatment and vice versa. Of course groups on themselves first and others second.

Kite · May 30, 2015

Whats also pretty racist is how Asians, the forgotten minority, are always left out of the conversation.

Mumei · May 30, 2015

The Technomancer said:
It would be much more accurate to say that feminism has historically always had issues with race and class. Its not at all unique to modern feminism, and modern feminism is the most aware to it its ever been

Mm.
1. There's an abolitionist movement that women play a principal role.
2. Through this activity, women participants become more conscious of their own social constraints.
3. There's a nascent women's movement, which has a great deal of class and race biases
4. Black women have a sort of dilemma: In the movement for racial equality, they are faced with sexism and their concerns as black women are given short thrift; in the women's movement they are faced with the racism and classism of their compatriots within that movement.

And then we saw the same basic pattern (movement for racial equality -> women are participants -> women create their own movement for equality -> black women don't get their concerns addressed by either group) in the 1960s. So, it's no wonder that intersectionality was a contribution of black feminist thought.

Goodstyle:

It's from 1983, but it's a good overview of the history of the movements, and specifically how racism and classism has limited feminist movements and resulted in deep betrayals (for instance, the response of the women's movement to lynching is beyond atrocious).

Sch1sm · May 30, 2015

Kite said:
Whats also pretty racist is how Asians, the forgotten minority, are always left out of the conversation.

That may be because they're a bit of an anomaly in terms of non-whites earnings. Wrong as it is, of course. They're probably focusing more on Caucasians instead of Asians simply because people have this idea that the Asian population worked really hard and overcame plenty to get there. Not that it's an impossible reason or anything, but it is stupid.

petran79 · May 30, 2015

"Racist" is not the appropriate word.
Rather failure to address the cultural, religious, linguistic, social etc peculiarities of minorities or non-Western European or North American countries. Does not apply only to feminism per se though. It could be described as cultural hegemony.

Eg a judging oppression of women in Islamic countries through Western eyes, while not taking into account how women there address the issue

RandyBobandy · May 30, 2015

People like that college counsellor (?) who was tweeting shit like "kill all men" certainly was

She was the one who made that group, but prohibited only white males or some shit

Can't find the story on her

Valhelm · May 30, 2015

Feminist is probably the least racist it's ever been, but like most modern Western institutions it was created by white people with white people in mind.

ItWasMeantToBe19 · May 30, 2015

excelsiorlef · May 30, 2015

RandyBobandy said:
People like that college counsellor (?) who was tweeting shit like "kill all men" certainly was

She was the one who made that group, but prohibited only white males or some shit

Can't find the story on her

It was one meeting out of a series of meetings, it's not ridiculous to think racial minorities might want to occasionally just meet among themselves. And she was a student.

And they tried to get her fired and it didn't work because yeah overblown by MRAs and anti-feminists.

soco · May 30, 2015

i guess i shouldn't be surprised about the reaction in the OP and the thread. sad.

Infinite · May 30, 2015

biggersmaller said:
People become defensive when a group they identify with is being mislabeled as a racist movement.

I don't think that's what's going here. Modern feminism has been the least racists it ever has been but there's nothing of grave concern when analyzing that a movement that was started by upper middle class white women for upper middle class white women is ignoring the issues of minority women whether that is intentional or unintentional. See partricia Arquette.

Dice · May 30, 2015

kirblar said:
It should be pointed out that this isn't limited to feminism- politics in general are warped around the upper-middle class and higher because they have the free time and money to worry about such things.

Many people don't think about this. So much political action is from the people who can most afford to be politically active, and maybe the people who need the most action on their behalf just can't.

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