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Crossing Eden · Oct 24, 2016

It seems every time we have a thread talking about exposing people for being racists or racists facing the consequences of their actions, we get a slew of disengenous people

A)suddenly worried about the well being of the racist and /their families

B)saying that we should just try to have a nice polite discussion with people who think minorities like myself are lesser than them simply due to our skin color

C)trying to downplay the severity of racism as some small offense or normalize it with phrases like this:Well you see everyone is racist behind closed doors

D)Try to imply that being irate and direct is just as bad or "both sides are the same"

The pattern here is that these people immediately stop to think about how a racist may or may not feel about a situation, how their families may feel, how THEIR lives might be ruined, they don't stop to think about the true victims of racism, people who were born with a different skin color. And honestly, the above arguments make no sense whatsoever when you apply any sort of critical thought and context to the racism that we face every day of our lives in society today.

So I wanted to highlight this post as it perfectly highlights the issues with the mindset that racists deserve some sort of sympathy or coddling or polite education instead of being called out and/or exposed for an incredibly outdated as mindset that has NO place in our society and in fact, I consider the above arguments just as harmful as the overt racism because they downplay the severity of it, which in some ways is way worse than overt racism as a moderate stance has just as many consequences for minorities, like "he was no angel" in the face of a killing.

royalan said:
Yep.

And here's the unfortunate thing, the inconvenient thing, that people hide from when they prop up their "it's better to educate" arguments:

(and I'll preface this by saying that, obviously, I don't speak for all black people. Just myself and a lot of the black people I know).

But here it is, bombshell y'all.

Black people don't want to educate the racists. We don't feel that we should have to. We don't want that burden. We just want to live.

There it is.

Because the point blank period here is that it's 2016. It's fucking 2016. Black people are here, y'all. Fuck, we've BEEN here. All up in your society. All up in your history, your music, your culture, your very way of life. We literally built this shit. Died for this shit. And then there's our homegirl Google, everyone's ride-or-die chick. You can look us up.

The thing that people like to ignore about racists is that, in 2016, if you're STILL racist after everything we've gone through as a society, then there's nothing I can say to you. There's nothing any one black person can say, no one conversation, that will make you less racist. If Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. couldn't cure this country of racism, then there's nothing that my ineloquent ass can do that he couldn't.

But I can judge you.
I can laugh at you.
I can read you for filth.
I can point out your logical fallacies in a way that makes you question the very air you are breathing.
I can warn the people who have to associate with you.
I can report you to HR if we work together.
I can refuse to coddle you or shield you from the results of your ignorance.

And that's what I will do. Because it's not my job, responsibility, or burden to educate you. And frankly, I don't care if being confronted and called out for what you are somehow makes you more racist; all that means is that you never had any desire to be educated in the first place, so thank god I didn't waste my time. You can stay a racist until the day you die. All I care about is that you get the fuck up out my face with it. That you face the consequences for it.

And I know a lot of black people who feel the same way.

So no, whenever we have a discussion with racists we're not going to coddle them, we're not going to try not to hurt their widdle feelings, we're not going to tip toe around the issues, we're going to be irate, direct, and succinct and call them what they are.

Bubba T · Oct 24, 2016

Maybe if the old people took their own advice and read a book they would learn something.

Crossing Eden · Oct 24, 2016

Bubba T said:
Maybe if the old people took their own advice and read a book they would learn something.

It's not just old people who make these arguments. In fact, it could be argued that a lot younger people stop and try to use these as legitimate responses to the idea that racism should be directly called out and confronted. As overt racism, "kill all niggers" is a lot less common in today's society than the downplaying and moderate stances.

Cabbagehead · Oct 24, 2016

Crossing Eden with the education thread. ;p

Massive Duck. C.M. · Oct 24, 2016

I think the main source for the line of thought that minorities (let's be real here, black people) are responsible for re-educating racists is that any meaningful chipping away at institutionalized racism means a net loss for white people and white passing/passable minorities to some degree. From a purely pragmatic view the only people who might benefit are minorities.

That said, the kind of racists that can actually be accessed by your average joe are like the hairs on the toe of the million legged beast of institutional racism. The heads that actually keep it going are the ostensibly educated and well off members of American society. People like Daryl Davis and Matthew Stevenson are real ones for risking their lives and sanity in trying to reach out to people but your everyday head is just trying to live and take care of themselves and/or their families while being put through the strainer.

NoblesseOblige · Oct 24, 2016

Anything short of violence a bigot has coming to them as far as I'm concerned. They shouldn't be coddled or treated with respect by being given 'the benefit of the doubt'. And if they remain ignorant it's on them.

The Lamp · Oct 24, 2016

There's a good message behind what you're saying, but psychological research shows that the only way to convince people to look past their prejudices is to slowly and patiently confront them with neutral facts and truth over time--not insult them, not get angry or taunt them, which will make them dig deeper into their prejudices and grudges. I learned about this in the prejudice lecture of a social psychology course lol.

So while it feels really nice to tell a racist to fuck off, your best chance of reeducating them and defeating their mindset is exposing them to truth repeatedly over time.

And you're right, it's not your responsibility to educate a racist, but here we are, with racists, because our society has failed to educate them on this properly, and either they will remain the way they are and ruin more lives, or change for the better. You, whoever you are, can be the key to that change.

Somnid · Oct 24, 2016

It's nobody's responsibility and that's why it's slow moving.

Crossing Eden · Oct 24, 2016

The Lamp said:
There's a good message behind what you're saying, but psychological research shows that the only way to convince people to look past their prejudices is to slowly and patiently confront them with neutral facts and truth over time--not insult them, not get angry or taunt them, which will make them dig deeper into their prejudices and grudges. I learned about this in the prejudice lecture of a social psychology course lol.

So while it feels really nice to tell a racist to fuck off, your best chance of reeducating them and defeating their mindset is exposing them to truth repeatedly over time.

And you're right, it's not your responsibility to educate a racist, but here we are, with racists, and either they will remain the way they are and ruin more lives, or change for the better. You, whoever you are, can be the key to that change.

Again, if me telling them off somehow makes them more racist, they undoubtedly weren't looking to change in the first place. Rarely have I seen a racist magically change their mindset once they've had a polite discussion about it. Me personally, i'm usually directly and sternly using facts. It's not my job to do so, and if me just being direct with them makes them hate me even more, then they can really just fuck off. I'm not gonna give them special treatment, they get enough of that already based on their skin color.

David H Wong · Oct 24, 2016

The Lamp said:
There's a good message behind what you're saying, but psychological research shows that the only way to convince people to look past their prejudices is to slowly and patiently confront them with neutral facts and truth over time--not insult them, not get angry or taunt them, which will make them dig deeper into their prejudices and grudges. I learned about this in the prejudice lecture of a social psychology course lol.

So while it feels really nice to tell a racist to fuck off, your best chance of reeducating them and defeating their mindset is exposing them to truth repeatedly over time.

And you're right, it's not your responsibility to educate a racist, but here we are, with racists, because our society has failed to educate them on this properly, and either they will remain the way they are and ruin more lives, or change for the better. You, whoever you are, can be the key to that change.

Yep, it's all based on whether you actually want the world to get better, or just make yourself feel better by insulting people you don't like.

Hate feels good; when you see somebody else being hateful, there's nothing better than hating them right back. I certainly can't blame anyone for it. But don't pretend you're fixing hatred that way - you're just adding to it.

Aaronrules380 · Oct 24, 2016

I don't agree, because I feel this arguement is built more on an ideal fantasy notion that what you want actually matters in combating a problem. The world won't act the way you want it to just because you want it to. If you want change, you have to make an effort. The effort isn't fun. It isn't easy. But it is necessary. I think calling out racists is important, but I think how you do it is also important. Whether racism should have a place in our society is irrelevant (it shouldn't) because right now it is a part. You can't just sit back and expect change to happen. Is it fair? Of course not. Life isn't fair. But people benefitting from systemic racism by and large aren't going to go out of their way to educate themselves or try to learn, because they have no real reason to. If you want change to happen you need to make it happen yourself

Racism is a severe problem. But just because it's hard, and probably won't achieve anything is a horrible excuse to just give up trying. Figuring out ways to effectively cause change is important. Just being right and lashing out isn't necessarily going to help. It might even hurt. That's reality.

The issue here is that being irate and super confrontational won't help most of the time. Is it as bad? Of course not. But just because it's easy and feels good short term doesn't mean it'll get you the end result you desire

I also think you're combining multiple unrelated issues. Downplaying racism is bad. Racism is bad wherever it happens and however it happens. But that doesn't mean taking any approach to confront it will be helpful

There's an important thing called foot in the door technique when it comes to negotiations. Basically you're more likely to get big change by asking for a smaller, more incosequential change first, and gradually increasing your requests. Keep asking for small concessions and you'll find that you get big concessions quicker than if you ask for major change all at once.

TL;DR: Regardless of being right or being fair, the burden of change will always fall onto those who want it (In this case, minorities as well as sympathetic whites). Regardless of whether they should or not, racists are pretty much never going to try to educate themselves, so if you want them to be educated, you need to do it yourself

KO Traveling Hobo · Oct 24, 2016

I have always been one of those people, but it's never been out of concern for the racist.

My concern is that if you let racists continue to be racists, then how will conditions improve? Leave it up to white people to sort themselves out?

Lumination · Oct 24, 2016

The Lamp said:
There's a good message behind what you're saying, but psychological research shows that the only way to convince people to look past their prejudices is to slowly and patiently confront them with neutral facts and truth over time--not insult them, not get angry or taunt them, which will make them dig deeper into their prejudices and grudges. I learned about this in the prejudice lecture of a social psychology course lol.

So while it feels really nice to tell a racist to fuck off, your best chance of reeducating them and defeating their mindset is exposing them to truth repeatedly over time.

And you're right, it's not your responsibility to educate a racist, but here we are, with racists, because our society has failed to educate them on this properly, and either they will remain the way they are and ruin more lives, or change for the better. You, whoever you are, can be the key to that change.

Yeah this.

Neither side wants to budge, I get that. But history shows that if you want any progress, it's the minorities that need to take that step. Are we holding you responsible to do so? No, but the hate has to stop somewhere and the racists ain't stopping first.

Crossing Eden said:
Again, if me telling them off somehow makes them more racist, they undoubtedly weren't looking to change in the first place. Rarely have I seen a racist magically change their mindset once they've had a polite discussion about it. Me personally, i'm usually directly and sternly using facts. It's not my job to do so, and if me just being direct with them makes them hate me even more, then they can really just fuck off. I'm not gonna give them special treatment, they get enough of that already based on their skin color.

It doesn't happen "magically". It takes months, years, generations. You're right it's not your job, but don't encourage that mindset with others. It does nothing but hurt the cause.

The Lamp · Oct 24, 2016

Crossing Eden said:
Again, if me telling them off somehow makes them more racist, they undoubtedly weren't looking to change in the first place. Rarely have I seen a racist magically change their mindset once they've had a polite discussion about it. Me personally, i'm usually directly and sternly using facts. It's not my job to do so, and if me just being direct with them makes them hate me even more, then they can really just fuck off.

Depends on what you mean by "telling off," as it's unclear whether you're saying you're neutral and direct or insulting and direct. Insulting someone with the intention of belittling instead of approaching with a truthful, neutral mindset will likely make them double down on their grudges, research shows this with racial prejudice.

"Rarely you've seen" doesn't really matter. Like I said, it's a gradual thing over time.

A good example is homophobic parents. Sometimes it takes years of coping with facts and humanizing the gay person in their mind before they drop their prejudices.

NoblesseOblige · Oct 24, 2016

The Lamp said:
So while it feels really nice to tell a racist to fuck off, your best chance of reeducating them and defeating their mindset is exposing them to truth repeatedly over time.

For most I presume the efforts are better aimed at getting those in power who will help neuter the consequences of racists, while simultaneously encouraging better education in the next generations. Bigoted adults are a lost cause nine times out of ten. Easier to nullify their ideology with a regulatory body that cares about minorities than it is to pretend we can change their minds.

EMT0 · Oct 24, 2016

The Lamp said:
There's a good message behind what you're saying, but psychological research shows that the only way to convince people to look past their prejudices is to slowly and patiently confront them with neutral facts and truth over time--not insult them, not get angry or taunt them, which will make them dig deeper into their prejudices and grudges. I learned about this in the prejudice lecture of a social psychology course lol.

So while it feels really nice to tell a racist to fuck off, your best chance of reeducating them and defeating their mindset is exposing them to truth repeatedly over time.

And you're right, it's not your responsibility to educate a racist, but here we are, with racists, because our society has failed to educate them on this properly, and either they will remain the way they are and ruin more lives, or change for the better. You, whoever you are, can be the key to that change.

Or, if ostracized and confronted enough, they sit in their own ever shrinking bubble of shame and suffer the consequences for their own actions without putting any form of load on society to do anything but reject them, rather than putting the onus on the persecuted to help the persecutor.

Sai-kun · Oct 24, 2016

I thought I read that when confronted with facts, racists and other ignorant folks tended to dig their heels in deeper? :thinking:

Aaronrules380 · Oct 24, 2016

Crossing Eden said:
Again, if me telling them off somehow makes them more racist, they undoubtedly weren't looking to change in the first place. Rarely have I seen a racist magically change their mindset once they've had a polite discussion about it. Me personally, i'm usually directly and sternly using facts. It's not my job to do so, and if me just being direct with them makes them hate me even more, then they can really just fuck off. I'm not gonna give them special treatment, they get enough of that already based on their skin color.

Correct. This is the reality. Most racists are not looking to change. They have no reason to. The people who want change are the ones who have to put in the effort. It's not fair, but LIFE ISN'T FAIR. This is a basic fact. It sucks, but its the people who want change who have to put in the effort, not the assholes that don't. If you sit around hoping the world will change because you want it to, but don't feel its right that you have to put in the effort, than you'll never get what you want

royalan · Oct 24, 2016

The Lamp said:
There's a good message behind what you're saying, but psychological research shows that the only way to convince people to look past their prejudices is to slowly and patiently confront them with neutral facts and truth over time--not insult them, not get angry or taunt them, which will make them dig deeper into their prejudices and grudges. I learned about this in the prejudice lecture of a social psychology course lol.

So while it feels really nice to tell a racist to fuck off, your best chance of reeducating them and defeating their mindset is exposing them to truth repeatedly over time.

And you're right, it's not your responsibility to educate a racist, but here we are, with racists, because our society has failed to educate them on this properly, and either they will remain the way they are and ruin more lives, or change for the better. You, whoever you are, can be the key to that change.

The problem is that getting people to look past their prejudices isn't what I, or a lot of black people, think about when we wake up every morning. It's not what our burden should be.

If there's less racism in the world because racists learn to confront their prejudices and modify their thinking, or because they fear the social repercussions of their thinking, the result is the same.

Obviously, I would personally love for the world to become less racist because people learn to become more tolerant, accepting, and willing to embrace different people FOR their differences. But, short of that happening, I can at least pressure you to shut the fuck up with your racism by making it something that socially hurts you.

Bounceounce · Oct 24, 2016

No one says it's your responsibility, so why do you get so defensive when someone praises that approach or talks about practicing it?

MHWilliams · Oct 24, 2016

I'm out, so I can't respond to this in detail, but for those talking about the soft touch...

The notable part is "over time". That requires a great deal of effort and time that is not a burden to lay on black people en masse. If you wish to take on the burden, by all means.

But do not fault someone else for taking a more cathartic way forward.

Bounceounce said:
No one says it's your responsibility, so why do you get so defensive when someone praises that approach or talks about practicing it?

Praising the approach is fine. Saying it should be the norm? Lay that burden equally on the racist, not just their potential victims.

Quixzlizx · Oct 24, 2016

EMT0 said:
Or, if ostracized and confronted enough, they sit in their own ever shrinking bubble of shame and suffer the consequences for their own actions without putting any form of load on society to do anything but reject them, rather than putting the onus on the persecuted to help the persecutor.

It doesn't help the persecutor, it helps the persecuted.

Lumination · Oct 24, 2016

EMT0 said:
Or, if ostracized and confronted enough, they sit in their own ever shrinking bubble of shame and suffer the consequences for their own actions without putting any form of load on society to do anything but reject them, rather than putting the onus on the persecuted to help the persecutor.

This is not what happens. The alt-right movement was born because these people who were supposedly shamed found one another and feed off of each other.

4 is a cutie · Oct 24, 2016

As a minority, I TOTALLY get being tired of reality but ultimately you have to "be the change you wish to see" and all that

It's not easy nor is it fair but what's the point in not being active for the benefit of your ideal future? I don't condone coddling anyone but what do I gain from not educating an ignorant person on race when I am able to?

edit: And yeah no one should be shamed for not having the energy to fight the "good fight" every day

Aaronrules380 · Oct 24, 2016

royalan said:
The problem is that getting people to look past their prejudices isn't what I, or a lot of black people, think about when we wake up every morning. It's not what our burden should be.

If there's less racism in the world because racists learn to confront their prejudices and modify their thinking, or because they fear the social repercussions of their thinking, the result is the same.

Obviously, I would personally love for the world to become less racist because people learn to become more tolerant, accepting, and willing to embrace different people FOR their differences. But, short of that happening, I can at least pressure you to shut the fuck up with your racism by making it something that socially hurts you.

I agree. But whether it should be or shouldn't be is irrelevant to what the reality of the situation is. Change is a long and hard process. It sucks, but that's the way life works. Complaining that it shouldn't be that way won't help you

theWB27 · Oct 24, 2016

David H Wong said:
Yep, it's all based on whether you actually want the world to get better, or just make yourself feel better by insulting people you don't like.

Hate feels good; when you see somebody else being hateful, there's nothing better than hating them right back. I certainly can't blame anyone for it. But don't pretend you're fixing hatred that way - you're just adding to it.

Isn't this what Eden is saying? You're making us, the minority, feel bad because we don't wanna play nice and act like we can teach you something when the post in the OP sums it up. We here...that's enough for that racist to not be racist. We do enough for you not to look at us the way racists do.

We aren't adding to hate. We don't have to coddle it either. Our disdain for being treated like shit doesn't add anything.

KO Traveling Hobo said:
I have always been one of those people, but it's never been out of concern for the racist.

My concern is that if you let racists continue to be racists, then how will conditions improve? Leave it up to white people to sort themselves out?

This is only true if you pretend we haven't had avenues for the racists to learn about us.

Man God said:
Nope, it's the job of everyone to do it...which is why it is so glacially slow.

No it's not. It's the burden for the racist to educate themselves if they truly want to.

Man God · Oct 24, 2016

Nope, it's the job of everyone to do it...which is why it is so glacially slow.

Polari · Oct 24, 2016

David H Wong said:
Yep, it's all based on whether you actually want the world to get better, or just make yourself feel better by insulting people you don't like.

Hate feels good; when you see somebody else being hateful, there's nothing better than hating them right back. I certainly can't blame anyone for it. But don't pretend you're fixing hatred that way - you're just adding to it.

Bingo.

The Lamp · Oct 24, 2016

MHWilliams said:
I'm out, so I can't respond to this in detail, but for those talking about the soft touch...

The notable part is "over time". That requires a great deal of effort and time that is not a burden to lay on black people en masse. If you wish to take on the burden, by all means.

But do not fault someone else for taking a more cathartic way forward.

I agree. That's the key. I don't blame minorities for demanding respect because they are fatigued in waiting for racists to come around.

As a bisexual, I straddle the line on occasion between trying to convince people around me to legitimize and accept my same sex relationship, and simply not giving a fuck and telling people who oppress me to leave me alone and that they're being bigoted.

For those of us who do want to contribute to changing a mindset, I think we can consider the approach we take in addressing this issue around racists to make our rhetoric most effective in changing their thinking over time.

Massive Duck. C.M. · Oct 24, 2016

Additionally, if you yourself are not willing to take time to educate you shouldn't be shitting on others for not doing it either.

That happens A LOT.

To be honest I feel like the pendulum is swinging back, and that if this were the 1800s a lot of posters would be hiding under hay throwing pebbles at slave traders and rocks at abolitionists.

MHWilliams · Oct 24, 2016

What the backlash is saying: It's not enough to struggle with racism in your direction, you must also struggle with the burden of teaching that racism is wrong.

To which I ask: those who are willing to take on that burden, take on the additional burden of those who don't wish to suffer educating others for their simple livelihood. It's hard, but is that not what is being espoused? Don't talk against those who will not take up the burden. Instead take up that additional weigh yourself.

The Lamp said:
I agree. That's the key. I don't blame minorities for demanding respect because they are fatigued in waiting for racists to come around.

As a bisexual, I straddle the line on occasion between trying to convince people around me to legitimize and accept my same sex relationship, and simply not giving a fuck and telling people who oppress me to leave me alone and that they're being bigoted.

For those of us who do want to contribute to changing a mindset, I think we can consider the approach we take in addressing this issue around racists to make our rhetoric most effective in changing their thinking over time.

The problem is the thought that one cannot want the change without also taking the long term effort of reeducation.

This is why people frequently decry such statements.

"This is the only way to counteract racism."

Incorrect. Counteracting any social situation includes not only reeducation, but also social stigma. The toolbox is wide and many want people to believe there's only a single tool.

The umbrage comes from this idea that you cannot live your life free from racism. Instead, you must hedge, soften, and dodge in the way that will best lead to that life. And god forbid, it may not happen in your lifetime.

Damerman · Oct 24, 2016

I'm gonna have to agree with this even though i've always been a person to sympathize with people who didn't know better. at this point it seems as though white america would rather not have a real conversation about race. so when they stumble on themselves with their racism and harmful generalizations, i can't sympathize anymore. and when i say white america, i'm not talking about white people, but rather the antithesis of racial progressiveness... new jim crow mother fuckers who hate that a black family moved into their neighborhood because their home equity is no longer appreciating.

trump and the support for him is a very clear, yet tacit statement... America doesn't want to talk about race, they just want to use dog whistle phrases and take it back to the "good old days". not wanting to learn about it is an active effort at this point.

Crossing Eden · Oct 24, 2016

The Lamp said:
Depends on what you mean by "telling off," as it's unclear whether you're saying your neutral and direct or insulting and direct. Insulting someone with the intention of belittling instead of approaching with a truthful, neutral mindset will likely make them double down on their grudges, research shows this with racial prejudice.

"Rarely you've seen" doesn't really matter. Like I said, it's a gradual thing over time.

A good example is homophobic parents. Sometimes it takes years of coping with facts and humanizing the gay person in their mind before they drop their prejudices.

I tell it like it is, if I see something racist happening, i'll call it out, i'm not going to sugarcoat it or attempt to be kind and gentle, i'm telling them directly what it is and why it's wrong, many times people like to argue that doing that is going to far and only makes it worse, then fuck it. They have the responsibility to educate themselves about why black people are not less than them in this era.

Aaronrules380 said:
Correct. This is the reality. Most racists are not looking to change. They have no reason to. The people who want change are the ones who have to put in the effort. It's not fair, but LIFE ISN'T FAIR. This is a basic fact. It sucks, but its the people who want change who have to put in the effort, not the assholes that don't. If you sit around hoping the world will change because you want it to, but don't feel its right that you have to put in the effort, than you'll never get what you want

I don't feel that it's right that minorities have the SOLE responsibility in putting in the effort otherwise "that's just the way it is."

Bounceounce said:
No one says it's your responsibility, so why do you get so defensive when someone praises that approach or talks about practicing it?

Because those people do absolutely nothing to help the situation themselves and would rather tell minorities how they should handle their own oppression. Basically a "fuck you got mine" mindset as well as adding to the already ingrained racism by standing by and doing nothing but telling me that I should be more respectful to racist people.

NoblesseOblige · Oct 24, 2016

David H Wong said:
Yep, it's all based on whether you actually want the world to get better, or just make yourself feel better by insulting people you don't like.

Hate feels good; when you see somebody else being hateful, there's nothing better than hating them right back. I certainly can't blame anyone for it. But don't pretend you're fixing hatred that way - you're just adding to it.

Hating people for doing you wrong is completely different than hating someone because of their skin color as far as I am concerned. I'm sure plenty of people who hate racists will stop hating racists when the racists stop being racist. Meanwhile if a minority person stops hating a racist the racist ain't going to stop hating them.

And no, hate doesn't feel good, for anybody. If it feels good to you then I suggest seeking counseling.

EdibleKnife · Oct 24, 2016

Man God said:
Nope, it's the job of everyone to do it...which is why it is so glacially slow.

Minorities have already put in their efforts. They've sacrificed, bled, fought and played nice for centuries. They haven't spent the same amount of time lazing around, ignoring and accepting oppression that those in privilege have. At some point, if you actually know history, it's time to realize that only the marginalized pull the bulk of the weight towards progress while dealing with all of the oppression

Sapientas · Oct 24, 2016

The Lamp said:
There's a good message behind what you're saying, but psychological research shows that the only way to convince people to look past their prejudices is to slowly and patiently confront them with neutral facts and truth over time--not insult them, not get angry or taunt them, which will make them dig deeper into their prejudices and grudges. I learned about this in the prejudice lecture of a social psychology course lol.

So while it feels really nice to tell a racist to fuck off, your best chance of reeducating them and defeating their mindset is exposing them to truth repeatedly over time.

And you're right, it's not your responsibility to educate a racist, but here we are, with racists, because our society has failed to educate them on this properly, and either they will remain the way they are and ruin more lives, or change for the better. You, whoever you are, can be the key to that change.

Great post. Like OP said, it's absolutely insane how racism is still so alive in 2016. It's inexcusable.
It's clear now that ending racism is still a long way from here, and I feel the quickest way for it is through reconciliation. Unfortunately that is not easy, specially in this case when the historically oppresed need to compromise, but it's still the best way, in my opinion.
Who am I to say all that though? Never felt any of that oppresion.

Man God · Oct 24, 2016

theWB27 said:
No it's not. It's the burden for the racist to educate themselves if they truly want to.

People (for the most part) suck at teaching themselves anything.

Plus you're forgetting that this shit is cumulative. Racist parents raise racist children, and only massive peer pressure and education does anything to stem the tide. Same with any other abuse. The cycle of violence is real and it takes work to break.

Aaronrules380 · Oct 24, 2016

theWB27 said:
Isn't this what Eden is saying? You're making us, the minority, feel bad because we don't wanna play nice and act like we can teach you something when the post in the OP sums it up. We here...that's enough for that racist to not be racist. We do enough for you not to look at us the way racists do.

We aren't adding to hate. We don't have to coddle it either. Our disdain for being treated like shit doesn't add anything.

It's one thing to complain and vent in private places with friends. You absolutely can and should fume about problems and racism when you're with people you know and trust to be sympathetic. But the unfortunate reality is that in public people do need to play nice and polite. This goes for both black people, and white people who are outraged at the injustices. I'm not telling you this to make you feel bad, or think you're just as bad or whatever. I'm telling you this because I genuinely want to see things become better for minorities, and I think it's important to consider if whether the way things are being handled is really the best way. I think in any situation having someone sympathetic on the outside can help you get a certain perspective that's hard to obtain in an issue where being on the "inside" is a deeply emotional thing. Being on the outside definitely makes you miss a lot of things and not know a lot of things that only people on the inside would understand. But being on the inside can make the issue a lot more personal and emotional, which can hurt judgement if you're not careful. This goes for anything, not just racism

riotous · Oct 24, 2016

David H Wong said:
Yep, it's all based on whether you actually want the world to get better, or just make yourself feel better by insulting people you don't like.

Give me a break; insulting racists isn't just about "not liking them." Racism actively makes the world worse in an incredibly unfair way; every person of color would love for less racism to exist... you completely miss the entire point of this thread. It shouldn't be the victim's responsibility to make things better.

Slayven · Oct 24, 2016

Lumination said:
Yeah this.

Neither side wants to budge, I get that. But history shows that if you want any progress, it's the minorities that need to take that step. Are we holding you responsible to do so? No, but the hate has to stop somewhere and the racists ain't stopping first.

It doesn't happen "magically". It takes months, years, generations. You're right it's not your job, but don't encourage that mindset with others. It does nothing but hurt the cause.

That is the problem right there, when is minorities' humanity up to debate? There is no sides either you see me as a human being worthy of basic respect. or you a racist asshole that deserves all the bad things to happen to you and only you.

Pick where you stand and be judged accordingly

royalan · Oct 24, 2016

Aaronrules380 said:
I agree. But whether it should be or shouldn't be is irrelevant to what the reality of the situation is. Change is a long and hard process. It sucks, but that's the way life works. Complaining that it shouldn't be that way won't help you

Who said anything about complaining? I'm certainly not complaining; that post quoted in the OP is mine.

If anyone's complaining, it's the folks upset that every black person doesn't have the patience of Dr. King mixed with a little bit of Jesus.

I don't waste a single breath of my day educating grown ass individuals who aught to know better and KNOW that. That's not my calling. I shame the fuck out of racism when I'm confronted with it and move on. And people like me play definitely play a role in a civil society. Shame is a powerful motivator. I may not be able to change your mind, dear racist (not you, poster that I'm quoting), but that isn't my point or my goal.

Vicetrailia · Oct 24, 2016

I think it's just better to focus on the next generation as far as education is concerned. Current adults will get some awareness as a factor of living, but they just need to be lucky enough to come upon a situation/circumstance that changes their view. Or if you do come across a racist, be selective in the ones you try to educate.

Aaronrules380 · Oct 24, 2016

Crossing Eden said:
I tell it like it is, if I see something racist happening, i'll call it out, i'm not going to sugarcoat it or attempt to be kind and gentle, i'm telling them directly what it is and why it's wrong, many times people like to argue that doing that is going to far and only makes it worse, then fuck it. They have the responsibility to educate themselves about why black people are not less than them in this era.

I don't feel that it's right that minorities have the SOLE responsibility in putting in the effort otherwise "that's just the way it is."

Because those people do absolutely nothing to help the situation themselves and would rather tell minorities how they should handle their own oppression. Basically a "fuck you got mine" mindset as well as adding to the already ingrained racism by standing by and doing nothing but telling me that I should be more respectful to racist people.

They don't. People who want change have the responsibility. This includes minorities, but it also includes anyone else who is sympathetic to the cause. But the fact is, the burden of change is always going to fall onto the people who want change, not the people who don't. And the people who want change are always going to be mostly made up of the people who stand to gain from it. The best way to make sure change never happens is to put the burden of change on the people who don't care about it, and even more so the people who don't want it.

Lowmelody · Oct 24, 2016

Aaronrules380 said:
It's one thing to complain and vent in private places with friends. You absolutely can and should fume about problems and racism when you're with people you know and trust to be sympathetic. But the unfortunate reality is that in public people do need to play nice and polite

Look at this

just...

How can this be an actual thing said unironically to black people in 2016?

Slime · Oct 24, 2016

If someone's racism blows up in their face and the quality of their life is damaged as a result, congrats, they've just been educated.

There is no blissful ignorance to the effects of racism in 2016.

Quixzlizx · Oct 24, 2016

Crossing Eden said:
I tell it like it is, if I see something racist happening, i'll call it out, i'm not going to sugarcoat it or attempt to be kind and gentle, i'm telling them directly what it is and why it's wrong, many times people like to argue that doing that is going to far and only makes it worse, then fuck it.

I don't feel that it's right that minorities have the SOLE responsibility in putting in the effort otherwise "that's just the way it is."

Because those people do absolutely nothing to help the situation themselves and would rather tell minorities how they should handle their own oppression. Basically a "fuck you got mine" mindset as well as adding to the already ingrained racism by standing by and doing nothing but telling me that I should be more respectful to racist people.

I think you are looking at this wrong. Here is a different example:

"It isn't the GOP's responsibility to convince poor white people to vote for politicians who end up blatantly fucking them over."

Yet they do it anyway, because it benefits them. I specifically chose that example because there is no moral "burden" to dole out there; it's completely amoral and self-interested behavior.

The people you're responding to aren't claiming that it is your moral responsibility to behave a certain way, and that not behaving that way is evidence of a character flaw. It's an objective cost/benefit analysis.

EMT0 · Oct 24, 2016

Lumination said:
This is not what happens. The alt-right movement was born because these people who were supposedly shamed found one another and feed off of each other.

While true, the alt right's continued publicity has tainted Trump to a majority of Americans and it's shown by American opinions on his recent actions. That group of bigots are now inside their clearly defined bubble of those with and those not with them. And as they get crazier and crazier in a drive to reaffirm their existence, people are gonna drop em. At least, that's my hope.

NoblesseOblige · Oct 24, 2016

I'd also like to take the time to remark about how much I absolutely love the overlap of people who say we need to coddle racists with people who say safe places don't belong in the world. Like how can some be so dense?

Massive Duck. C.M. · Oct 24, 2016

Sapientas said:
Great post. Like OP said, it's absolutely insane how racism is still so alive in 2016. It's inexcusable.
It's clear now that ending racism is still a long way from here, and I feel the quickest way for it is through reconciliation. Unfortunately that is not easy, specially in this case when the historically oppresed need to compromise, but it's still the best way, in my opinion.
Who am I to say all that though? Never felt any of that oppresion.

It's not insane; institutionalized racism is motivated by financial gain and lust for power. Any reduction of institutionalized racism means a financial and power loss for many people.

Regarding compromise: what do we have left to compromise on?

Breads · Oct 24, 2016

What happened to empathy :x

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