Have to give it to get it.
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Seriously, It's Not The Responsibility of Minorities to Educate or Coddle Racists.
- Thread starter Crossing Eden
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Have to give it to get it.
EdibleKnife
Member
When you don't experience or ignore the depth and damage of oppression, the idea of "put on a happy face" becomes easier to sling. People underestimate how much effort it already takes for minorities not to constantly scream into the ether for the BS they have to deal with historically let alone from day to day
Frozenprince
Banned
On my phone so while I'd like to go into details I'm just gonna cliff notes it. I can't tell you the amount of times I've had too, as a gay man, explain that my sexuality does not define nor encompass me. And that I shouldn't need to explain it to an idiot and detail my personal life to those same idiots.
It's not the responsibility of the oppressed to make their oppressors understand and empathize with them. It's the oppressors job to change.
It's not the responsibility of the oppressed to make their oppressors understand and empathize with them. It's the oppressors job to change.
Aaronrules380
Member
I'm not expecting black people to be saints. I get that there are going to be times where you're going to snap. I'm saying that people should TRY their best to limit how often that happens. TRY to approach situations rationally and calmly even if the other side is clearly in the wrong and is a bunch of assholes. It's hard. But it's the best way to actually get change. I get that not everybody will be up to this. But giving in to rage, however justified, will usually not be the best way to get change.
MHWilliams
Member
Empathy for whom is the question?
Honestly, I'm frankly tired of having to soft-step on "I'm a person with equal rights and ability".
If you feel that's wrong, I have no energy left to give.
Aizen.S.Kennedy
Banned
Fuck outta here with that "your just adding to the hatred " nonsense Jason. Not treating someone like a child because they clearly HATE me due to no fault of my own isn't adding to anything. There was a time when black ppl only said nice things and had the upmost respect for racist. Guess what? Didn't change anything. I know u relate more to the racist due to your up bringing but that's sum bullshit. Always with that be the change you wanna see noise. Why is it always on the oppressor? Where are all the David Wong novels about racism and how it's bad 🤔🤔😑. You wanna see the change too correct ?
entremet
Member
Can't say I agree, OP.
But it really depends on what you mean by responsibility here. But the backbone of progressive thought has been an education campaign, from labor rights to Civil Rights, to the environmental movement, to helping the oppressed.
Does random minority X need to post articles ad naseum to their FB feed? No, of course not.
But this fight is an intellectual one and shrinking back and letting bigots dominate the conversation is silly.
But it really depends on what you mean by responsibility here. But the backbone of progressive thought has been an education campaign, from labor rights to Civil Rights, to the environmental movement, to helping the oppressed.
Does random minority X need to post articles ad naseum to their FB feed? No, of course not.
But this fight is an intellectual one and shrinking back and letting bigots dominate the conversation is silly.
This exact approach is why that white racist dude has the power to exercise his racism however he sees fit.
And if that racist doesn't feel like being a racist impacts their life negatively...they have very little reason to change. Most of the time...it's a repercussion of one's actions that start them on the path to change. Because that person that accepts talking and education as help means they see their error and are willing to accept it.
Heckler456
Banned
I'm actually reminded of an article I read recently of Daryl Davis, a black jazz-musician, befriending a bunch of KKK members and subsequently dismantling its division in Maryland. That seems like the way to go to enact lasting change. But yeah, it's an inordinate amount of effort. I wouldn't blame anyone if they'd just call the person out and be done with him/her.
Vicetrailia
Member
In reality, they already limit it greatly, and don't snap enough. The best way to change is for a racist to have a breakthrough, and that is not about being polite, it's about opportunity.
What is going on here?
oops nvm misread
Also, the "backbone of progressive thought" was war, blood and tears.
Cabbagehead
Member
That CAN'T BE THE TRUTH!!
TheSpoiler
Member
Here. I'll solve all the little contrarianism posts about how minorities should deal with racism.
I'll welcome anyone to real discussion. Anyone. They can come sit at my table any time they feel like it. But they have to be willing to listen, and have to be willing to change. They have to be willing to put in the work. I'm going to allow them to speak, and if they happen to actually want to reform, I'll be more than glad to assist in that.
Otherwise, they are human, they have the access and means (usually) to curb what is a horrible and frankly illogical thought process that really shouldn't need a goddamn Google search. Not going out of my way to spend time with someone who can switch on or off how they feel and act around my people, and I don't expect anyone else to do the same.
I'll welcome anyone to real discussion. Anyone. They can come sit at my table any time they feel like it. But they have to be willing to listen, and have to be willing to change. They have to be willing to put in the work. I'm going to allow them to speak, and if they happen to actually want to reform, I'll be more than glad to assist in that.
Otherwise, they are human, they have the access and means (usually) to curb what is a horrible and frankly illogical thought process that really shouldn't need a goddamn Google search. Not going out of my way to spend time with someone who can switch on or off how they feel and act around my people, and I don't expect anyone else to do the same.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Not the sole responsibility, or the responsibility to be kind and polite about it.
"Black people are less than me because of my skin color. Black people are inherently more violent. He was no angel. Etc. of dumbass racist bullshit"
"The president is literally black, his wife has done a shit ton for this country, and so did he when faced with the biggest challenges a president has had to deal with in our day and age. There are black people ingraiend in society everywhere, your mindset is incredibly outdated, and if you have a problem with it, life is only gonna get harder for you going forward. And i'm not gonna apologize for that whatsoever, so either get over your incredibly simplistic mindset, or there's the door."
"I'd have considered your viewpoints if you were kinder to me...stop hurting my feelings, think of my family."
Aaronrules380
Member
Change is a long slow process. It's hard and results are almost never instantaneous. I can totally see why it's easy to become disenchanted with these methods when they're hard, painful, and rarely have any visible results. But it's still ultimately the most effective way. Whether you're right or you're wrong, it's the people who want change that need to make it happen. This isn't just black people. I also try to educate people when I hear people say things that I think are wrong or unfair. But you can't expect the racists to just stop being racist because they're wrong. That will never work
Frozenprince
Banned
People that live within the palace of their privilege can ever fully understand those of us who are forced to wallow in fear of their oppression. Never have to know the constraints placed upon us and the fields of play being wholly unequal.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Why should I feel sorry for people who barely think of me as human thanks to my skin color? Why should i have empathy for those who shoot people with the same skin color as me even if they're complying with everything that's being said, why should I have empathy for people who defend racist shit on a daily basis? What have they done to even deserve empathy in the first place?
Damerman
Member
how is it that i have to educate you on how to treat other people how you would like to be treated? do you not see how asinine that is?
MHWilliams
Member
Ah, but again social stigma is a rather strong and useful tool.
Is your assertion that reeducation is the only tool of social change? Hell, do you believe it's even the strongest tool? I ask this of everyone. Look back on history and tell me if reeducation is the only fulcrum of change,
Actually it is. The opressed have the incentive to want change. The opressors seemingly haven't no incentive to change a system that benefits them. As people we cant expect others to change their situation to benefit people other then themselves.
Incidently. By asking you all these annoying questions these "idiots" as you so kindly call them are clearly trying to change. So its pretty hypocritical to expect others to change to make your life more comfortable and then be unwilling to assist in a change that ultimately benefits you
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Exactly. It's incredibly infuriating.
Frozenprince
Banned
I have no interest in being preached at by those who stand in the Ivory tower of their privilege.
Aaronrules380
Member
Except that time and time again we've seen that shaming people and the like don't help, at least not without a substantial majority backing the shaming. All it does is push these people further into their bubble, make them more extreme, and give birth to things like the alt-right movement. Obviously we need to raise awareness, and call people out on issues where they're wrong. But I still maintain there is a right and a wrong way to call people out in order to enact change
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Yes we can. That's what being a society is all about. I, as a white person, gain nothing myself from minorities being on equal footing. If anything I increase competition in my own life for things like my career. But it's the right thing to do, because they are people all the same as I.
Cabbagehead
Member
The oppressors will fight teeth and nail not to listen or comprehend the majority of the time until one of their own burst through the roof. Or a potential "threat" with a big enough following gets to big to ignore.
The onus 100% shouldn't be on black people to educate racists. They bear zero responsibility for that. But racists do have to continually be confronted with facts and reason by SOMEBODY. It just needs to be any human being that has respect for a person regardless of what race they are. Nobody should sit idly by and let racists spout hate, nor should people hatefully confront them with insults and ganging up. Nobody responds well to that. Nobody becomes a better person with that. I've never been a fan of combating hate with hate (and that's NOT to say you should "love" them).
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Doesn't that just reinforce my point? Racists will make no effort to learn of their own accord, so if we give up on them and allow them to stagnate, then things will remain as they are, which is to say, fucking awful.
I don't expect the oppressed to educate their oppressors. I don't think it's fair or just for them to have to do that. But the alternatives are mass migration of non-racists, mass deportation of racists, or civil war.
How long is supposed to take Aaron before the tactic is switched up? Slavery ended over 150 years ago. I don't know...you still gonna tell us to keep kicking at it? It' ll happen eventually. Because we still getting killed by the law because our car broke down with nothing happening.
Please...tell me how long we supposed to educate. All the info they need is a google search away. Hell...we still got the south pretending slavery never happened.
Please...tell me how long we need to educate.
How are we giving up on someone who doesn't give a shit about us? There was nothing there to begin with.
Frozenprince
Banned
Are you mad that I'm calling racists and bigots idiots? That's the whole discussion right there.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Bingo.
If it takes losing your job to realize that being an observable racist is a damn problem that's harmful to other people, that's nobody else's problem.
Aizen.S.Kennedy
Banned
Yea but do u think this racist would rather hear he's full of shit from me? Big scary black guy with dreads? Or Jason Pargin successful white American author who is from small town USA and also hates racism. I'm tired of the very ppl who some racist will actually listen to tellin us be the change you wanna see. Just makes me think umm don't you wanna see the change too?
An yea change is slow it's been literally hundreds of years..
DerekOfTheDykes
Member
The burden of societal change OUGHT to be on the ones in the wrong, in this case old racist windbags, but the problem is that these people clearly don't WANT to stop being racist, and will not choose to do so of their own will.
This means we, collectively, need to push back against racism as we see it. It's a really simple concept. People of color don't have a CHOICE to just not deal with racism in their lives, so white people need to make sure they aren't just turning the other way and ignoring it when they see it.
Is confronting racism uncomfortable? Fuck yeah it is. Societal progress isn't always comfortable. A little discomfort is nothing. Call it out among your family and friends. Call it out in the workplace. Call it out in the grocery store. Whatever.
White allies have to share that burden, there isn't an "opt out" function on progress.
This means we, collectively, need to push back against racism as we see it. It's a really simple concept. People of color don't have a CHOICE to just not deal with racism in their lives, so white people need to make sure they aren't just turning the other way and ignoring it when they see it.
Is confronting racism uncomfortable? Fuck yeah it is. Societal progress isn't always comfortable. A little discomfort is nothing. Call it out among your family and friends. Call it out in the workplace. Call it out in the grocery store. Whatever.
White allies have to share that burden, there isn't an "opt out" function on progress.
Aaronrules380
Member
I don't disagree, but I think you have to be careful with how and when you use it as a tool. Pushing to hard with the shaming can contribute to extremism. When someone feels like they have nothing left to lose, they become far more dangerous.If you push too hard, it'll create a backlash as we've seen time and time again
Frozenprince
Banned
then fuck em. I'm tired of this collectivist kumbaya shit.
entremet
Member
I'm thinking more globally. I'm not thinking in terms of one to one interactions.
Structural racism is more than just one on one interactions. If people are ignorant to that, how can you expect them to change?
Again, I'm not saying that individuals have a duty to do this. You don't. But I am a big proponent of advocacy and advocacy is rarely championed by the privileged alone.
Cabbagehead
Member
The good old, this how you do it right routine. If only they did it more quietly....
Baki
Member
No it's not.
It's the job of the racist not to be a god-damn motherfucking racist prick.
TheSpoiler
Member
Sure we can. We do it daily. What do you think about gay rights? Civil rights, even? Society is built upon assisting others - that's kind of the entire point and how humans live every single day.
And you are trying to be cute by flipping it and pretending like people asking questions is their format of trying to change, but it's almost always not that for more than a few reason. The most obvious is that offensive questions are better left done in and with the help of Google first. Or do you think asking a black person if they can really jump higher with their extra leg muscles is an innocuous question?
MHWilliams
Member
Do you feel that black people or other ethnic minorities have gotten to the power base that your second statement is true?
Or are you preemptively aiming at the oppressed to head off some potential issue in the future?
The advocacy is already coming from minorities. All that happens in discussions like this is attempting to push that advocacy on all.
Do you feel that advocacy isn't already happening in minority communities? I can give you a dozen situations to prove that idea wrong.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Exactly.
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
Some racism is not as extreme as your example, it can be stereotype like thinking Chinese are generally greedy, good at math, cheap, communist, willing to work for low wages, rude tourist etc.
We're talking about basic human decency. We're not talking about a "change" like single payer healthcare.
It is not on minorities to fix White people when all minorities want is to not be treated differently or unfairly. If anything, it should be the burden of other White folks.
yup, OP. I agree, as a member of several minorities (Bi, Biracial, Atheist, non-monogamous) I'm done trying to educate bigots.
I believe that racism, in 2016 is not true ignorance but willful ignorance. There are so many ways to educate yourself, apart from just trying to be a fucking empathetic, ethical and moral human being. If I know someone is being a bigot, I call them out for it but it's not my job to teach them to not be a piece of shit.
I believe that racism, in 2016 is not true ignorance but willful ignorance. There are so many ways to educate yourself, apart from just trying to be a fucking empathetic, ethical and moral human being. If I know someone is being a bigot, I call them out for it but it's not my job to teach them to not be a piece of shit.
They've been educated that "being loudly racist is harmful," not that "racism is bad." A guy who gets fired for ranting about Muslims doesn't realize that he's being bigoted, and he's not going to lay the blame on himself. He's going to go hide in a hole and surround himself with like-minded bigots, but he's still going to tell his friends about his persecution, and teach his children to hate brown people.
Racism is a bleeding wound on modern society. You can slap a band-aid on it (by shouting people down and running them out of business), but that's not going to fix things, and they're not going to fix themselves. So yeah, ultimately, if you're a progressive-minded person who wants to fight against racism, it's your responsibility to educate people and not fight them.
If you don't want to shoulder that burden, I don't blame you at all - that's a real shitty hand to be dealt. But you shouldn't be pretending that fighting fire with fire will actually do any good.
(And note, I'm talking about, like, "fighting the alt-right movement" rather than "fighting police racism" - the latter can and should be done by sheer force of will. You can change laws that way, but not minds.)
We will wait for them to die off or shoved in their own bubble of irrelvance. Black people know patience. 400 years of hard petience.
It is not like we are not putting in the work BLM, etc. White people are just mad we are not doing in a way they can ignore or feel good about.
Aaronrules380
Member
This is suggesting I'm not putting the burden of change on the sympathetic whites as well. I do. But the honest truth is that people will make other ways of dividing themselves. The successful white author will also get a ton of backlash if they try too forcefully. That's why we see this huge backlash against "PC culture" and why movements like the alt right are anti intellectual as well as anti minority in most cases
Frozenprince
Banned
Marriage equality didn't come from education, it came because we brought it to the supreme Court and they FORCED change. It's not my job to make a bigoted pastor not be a bigot.
EdibleKnife
Member
This. If there's no effort on their part to do better, all I can do is continue to live my life as an average human who happens to be a minority. If that's not enough for them to see me as equal and human, then no amount of extra song and dance on my end will change that. There will always be individuals who create avenues for education and community open to bigots but in no way is that somehow the duty of each and every minority at all times.
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