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[Wafflecakes]

Marriage equality didn't come from education, it came because we brought it to the supreme Court and they FORCED change. It's not my job to make a bigoted pastor not be a bigot.

The SCOTUS would NEVER have made that change if a large portion of America had not supported it.

There is a reason why that occurred in 2014 rather than 2004.

 

[Slayven]

Marriage equality didn't come from education, it came because we brought it to the supreme Court and they FORCED change. It's not my job to make a bigoted pastor not be a bigot.

Neither did the voting rights act or the civil rights act.

 

[bobbychalkers]

Damn...I heard church organs while reading royalan's post

 

[MHWilliams]

Marriage equality didn't come from education, it came because we brought it to the supreme Court and they FORCED change. It's not my job to make a bigoted pastor not be a bigot.

Ding ding ding.

The SCOTUS would NEVER have made that change if a large portion of America had not supported it.

There is a reason why that occurred in 2014 rather than 2004.

Do you believe that is because of the soft touch, or because LGBT fought hard for their ability to be seen as people?

 

[Aaronrules380]

We're talking about basic human decency. We're not talking about a "change" like single payer healthcare.

It is not on minorities to fix White people when all minorities want is to not be treated differently or unfairly. If anything, it should be the burden of other White folks.

It's the burden of everyone who wants change, white or black or asian or latino or whatever else they might be. I agree it's basic human decency. But the fact is that regardless of whether it "should" be a matter of course, the reality is that right now it isn't. Yes it's not a change like universal healthcare, but that doesn't necessarily mean the principles behind obtaining change are that different

 

[Heckler456]

Marriage equality didn't come from education, it came because we brought it to the supreme Court and they FORCED change. It's not my job to make a bigoted pastor not be a bigot.

Ehm... I'm relatively certain that marriage equality exists today thanks to a growing undercurrent over the course of decades.

 

[Baki]

They've been educated that "being loudly racist is harmful," not that "racism is bad." A guy who gets fired for ranting about Muslims doesn't realize that he's being bigoted, and he's not going to lay the blame on himself. He's going to go hide in a hole and surround himself with like-minded bigots, but he's still going to tell his friends about his persecution, and teach his children to hate brown people.

Racism is a bleeding wound on modern society. You can slap a band-aid on it (by shouting people down and running them out of business), but that's not going to fix things, and they're not going to fix themselves. So yeah, ultimately, if you're a progressive-minded person who wants to fight against racism, it's your responsibility to educate people and not fight them.

The bolded is where I pointedly disagree.

It is & never should be the responsibility of the victim to educate the fucking oppressor. It's the same victim blaming bullshit people use on rape victims. Fuck that.

Now on your point on how to enact change most effectively, I don't completely disagree, it's just the "burden" of responsibility of which you are attributing to POCs is wrong.

If anything, the burden should be on white people who have benefited from generations of wealth created by people of colour who built their wealth in the United States.

 

[entremet]

Do you feel that black people or other ethnic minorities have gotten to the power base that your second statement is true?

Or are you preemptively aiming at the oppressed to head off some potential issue in the future?



The advocacy is already coming from minorities. All that happens in discussions like this is attempting to push that advocacy on all.

Do you feel that advocacy isn't already happening in minority communities? I can give you a dozen situations to prove that idea wrong.

We don't disagree, but I include advocacy in the OP definition of educating bigots.

What else is it?

It may not be as hamfisted and direct, but it's using education, persuasion, and reason to further aims and lessen bigotry and it's effects.

 

[Frozenprince]

The SCOTUS would NEVER have made that change if a large portion of America had not supported it.

Lol what? Polls are dead split. Plus that ignores state level supreme courts.

It was an enforcement of equality under the legality of the equal protections act and those added to the Constitution. Added, might I add, through legal maneuvering not protesting and education.

Bigots will always do whatever they need do to continue to be bigots and justify their bigotry to themselves. I know this firsthand. I'm gonna venture a guess and say damn near all minorities know this.

 

[EdibleKnife]

The SCOTUS would NEVER have made that change if a large portion of America had not supported it.

There is a reason why that occurred in 2014 rather than 2004.

A portion is not everyone and those that didn't support it still seek to dismantle it at this very moment.

 

[Aaronrules380]

The SCOTUS would NEVER have made that change if a large portion of America had not supported it.

There is a reason why that occurred in 2014 rather than 2004.

Yep. You can't force issues like these until a large majority are in favor of it. That's why education is important. Because while there are many people you can't change, you need to change enough that the public opinion is sufficiently tilted to your side

 

[TheSpoiler]

Marriage equality didn't come from education, it came because we brought it to the supreme Court and they FORCED change. It's not my job to make a bigoted pastor not be a bigot.

Thank you.

I know people are so worried and scared that racism and bigotry is going to just be scuffled under the rug, but once you put some societal structure in place, the bigger problem areas get dealt with. You'll always have people unwilling to change, and that's their choice, (which is funny, because the same people won't be educated no matter how much time you spend with them) but we can mitigate the damage spent on minorities at the very least. That's a net positive, I would think.

Of course, these societal structures introduce more information into the fold and make things commonly known instead of hiding things. Back in highschool, we skipped over a lot of black history, and now my cousin's textbook spends black history month really going into it. People think that punishment is like the only form of societal change. It's not.

 

[Slayven]

You would never tell a domestic abuse or rape victim to sit down and explain to abuser why the shit they did is wrong

 

[Crossing Eden]

Some racism is not as extreme as your example, it can be stereotype like thinking Chinese are generally greedy, good at math, cheap, communist, willing to work for low wages, rude tourist etc.

Racism in general, in 2016, is inherently extreme.

 

[gutter_trash]

Marriage equality didn't come from education, it came because we brought it to the supreme Court and they FORCED change. It's not my job to make a bigoted pastor not be a bigot.

Neither did the voting rights act or the civil rights act.

this is why I am against Referendums or what you guys call Ballot Box Initiatives when it comes to individual rights.

the tyranny of the majority should never ever reign in on the rights of the minority

 

[Cabbagehead]

Lol what? Polls are dead split. Plus that ignores state level supreme courts.

It was an enforcement of equality under the legality of the equal protections act and those added to the Constitution. Added, might I add, through legal maneuvering not protesting and education.

Bigots will always do whatever they need do to continue to be bigots and justify their bigotry to themselves. I know this firsthand. I'm gonna venture a guess and say damn near all minorities know this.

Hell to the fuck yes. Case in point the reaction and response to Cap's stance in the NFL. The rage and anger from people getting a reality check was disgusting.

 

[Frozenprince]

You would never tell a domestic abuse or rape victim to sit down and explain to abuser why the shit they did is wrong

Am I supposed to sit with the guys that knocked my top teeth out that they were just perpetuating a cycle of hate? No?

Huh.

 

[TheSpoiler]

You would never tell a domestic abuse or rape victim to sit down and explain to abuser why the shit they did is wrong

According to some people here, you'd be a hypocrite for being mean to them!

 

[Via Purifico]

Blacks have been fighting for their rights for generations, it's someone else's turn to pick up the slack fuck coddling.

 

[theWB27]

Yep. You can't force issues like these until a large majority are in favor of it. That's why education is important. Because while there are many people you can't change, you need to change enough that the public opinion is sufficiently tilted to your side

I keep asking you what more do you want us to educate a racist on if all the education they need is right there. You're putting the onus on us to make them look at their racism and tip toe around until they hopefully see the light. When you know change won't happen without some kind of impact.

Do you not see how crazy that is.

 

[entremet]

Lol what? Polls are dead split. Plus that ignores state level supreme courts.

It was an enforcement of equality under the legality of the equal protections act and those added to the Constitution. Added, might I add, through legal maneuvering not protesting and education.

Bigots will always do whatever they need do to continue to be bigots and justify their bigotry to themselves. I know this firsthand. I'm gonna venture a guess and say damn near all minorities know this.

The Supreme Court is made of people. People who rejected the centuries old dogma regarding the prospect of gay marriage. Moreover, the cases that brought the case up the Supreme Court was due to active advocacy over decades.

 

[rjinaz]

Neither did the voting rights act or the civil rights act.

No. You must educate. What you need to do is, in a calm matter, tell the individual that just told you they think you inferior or want you to die because of the color of your skin that they need education and that you are willing to provide it to them. At this point the racist will be so overcome with appreciation they will then be very attentive to every word you say and will listen, and will learn.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Don't you know minorities were out on Earth to help racists be the best people they can be!

 

[Aaronrules380]

A portion is not everyone and those that didn't support it still seek to dismantle it at this very moment.

The fact that it can still be dismantled is a big reason why continued education and getting more and more of the public on our side is important. In a democracy, the way the majority opinion falls can and does have a major effect on what decisions are made and how long they last. Even an appointed for life office like the supreme court will be affected to some extent by popular opinion

 

[Wafflecakes]

Do you believe that is because of the soft touch, or because LGBT fought hard for their ability to be seen as people?

As a gay person, imo the initial push was definitely a hard fight to get to the point where a gay person could live as publicly gay. However, at no point did I see an attitude of "fuck everyone who dislikes gay people", because that was the vast majority for a long time and it was counter productive.

The push for marriage equality was way more of a waiting game though. We just reached a critical mass where a large enough proportion of the population had met or knew someone who was gay and realized that they weren't hellspawn imo.

 

[Sapientas]

It's not insane; institutionalized racism is motivated by financial gain and lust for power. Any reduction of institutionalized racism means a financial and power loss for many people.

Regarding compromise: what do we have left to compromise on?

It's insane that institutional racism is kept alive for political and economic reasons. I guess it's not that strange though considering how fucked up the world is.

Explaining my point again since it came out badly. I understand and agree with the OP. It's absolutely legitimate to not want to educate racists that continue to spout harmful ideas in this day and age. It's well in your rights to tell these people to go die off somewhere else. But I believe that's not the best message we should be spreading. I believe it's more effective to find a common ground and work on it, just like The Lamp said in his post. For me the compromise comes from just that, having to handle racism because most white people are way too deep in their asses.

 

[Nabs]

Having to argue with racists is tiring on every level. Having to explain why you should be allowed to just exist is painful. To some people on the internet, this back and forth is fun and doesn't actually mean anything to their everyday lives. It's a waste of time.

I agree with this:

Additionally, if you yourself are not willing to take time to educate you shouldn't be shitting on others for not doing it either.

That happens A LOT.

To be honest I feel like the pendulum is swinging back, and that if this were the 1800s a lot of posters would be hiding under hay throwing pebbles at slave traders and rocks at abolitionists.

If you want to help, start there. Instead of telling us to be more like MLK, why don't you give it a try.

 

[Cabbagehead]

No. You must educate. What you need to do is, in a calm matter, tell the individual that just told you they think you inferior or want you to die because of the color of your skin that they need education and that you are willing to provide it to them. At this point the racist will be so overcome with appreciation they will then be very attentive to every word you say and will listen, and will learn.

Q, lots of yelling and the n word.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I keep asking you what more do you want us to educate a racist on if all the education they need is right there. You're putting the onus on us to make them look at their racism and tip toe around until they hopefully see the light. When you know change won't happen without some kind of impact.

Do you not see how crazy that is.

I'm not saying not to confront people about their racism, or to just ignore it. I'm saying it's important to consider how we confront these situations. Being silent isn't the answer, but neither is being overly agressive

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

We will wait for them to die off or shoved in their own bubble of irrelvance. Black people know patience. 400 years of hard petience.

It is not like we are not putting in the work BLM, etc. White people are just mad we are not doing in a way they can ignore or feel good about.

I'm not opposed to this strategy on a conceptual level. I just worry that it won't work.

 

[Crossing Eden]

No. You must educate. What you need to do is, in a calm matter, tell the individual that just told you they think you inferior or want you to die because of the color of your skin that they need education and that you are willing to provide it to them. At this point the racist will be so overcome with appreciation they will then be very attentive to every word you say and will listen, and will learn.

Hell, we should be appreciative that they gave us the privilege of being their educators. /s

 

[The Kree]

No bully I ever encountered in school stopped dissing and hitting me because I gave him my life story. I had to hit that motherfucker harder than he hit me, and sometimes that even meant using weapons if they were bigger and stronger.

If you never went through anything like that, you probably wouldn't understand why telling a victim of abuse and discrimination to be nice to their tormentors is insulting.

 

[rjinaz]

Don't you know minorities were out on Earth to help racists be the best people they can be!

Doing God's work. The little angel sitting on my shoulder, making sure I am making the morally correct choices. I'd probably be a monster if not for you minorities providing me my education. Thank you.

 

[kirblar]

I'm not opposed to this strategy on a conceptual level. I just worry that it won't work.

It's working.

Past a certain age, you're not going to fix most people.

 

[Cabbagehead]

Hell, we should be appreciative that they gave us the privilege of being their educators. /s

Right, once again down that oh so narrow nose.

 

[Slayven]

I'm not saying not to confront people about their racism, or to just ignore it. I'm saying it's important to consider how we confront these situations. Being silent isn't the answer, but neither is being overly agressive

Are you a minority?

if so have you had some one say some crazy stuff at work or whatever?
Then you must know if you confront that one person you will be doing nothing but correcting people. And that shit is physically and mentally tiring. Not mention being labeled as "one of those"

 

[theWB27]

I'm not saying not to confront people about their racism, or to just ignore it. I'm saying it's important to consider how we confront these situations. Being silent isn't the answer, but neither is being overly agressive

I'm asking you why when the racism is itself overly aggressive. You're not really presenting real measures. If we aren't passive nor aggressive then we aren't doing anything at all.

It feels aggressive as hell when me, a black man with NO record, still feels nervous when a cop gets behind on my way to work.

 

[Cabbagehead]

Are you a minority?

if so have you had some one say some crazy stuff at work or whatever?
Then you much know if you confront that one person you will be doing nothing but correcting people. And that shit is physically and mentally tiring. Not mention being labeled as "one of those"

The trouble starter, the aggressor and the argumentative black or minority person .

 

[KRod-57]

I think the main source for the line of thought that minorities (let's be real here, black people) are responsible for re-educating racists is that any meaningful chipping away at institutionalized racism means a net loss for white people and white passing/passable minorities to some degree. From a purely pragmatic view the only people who might benefit are minorities.

That said, the kind of racists that can actually be accessed by your average joe are like the hairs on the toe of the million legged beast of institutional racism. The heads that actually keep it going are the ostensibly educated and well off members of American society. People like Daryl Davis and Matthew Stevenson are real ones for risking their lives and sanity in trying to reach out to people but your everyday head is just trying to live and take care of themselves and/or their families while being put through the strainer.

I do not find the first part of this post true at all.. unless you are referring specifically to the belief that reducing systemic racism is to white peoples' expense. Reducing disparities that exist through institutionalized racism is not to white peoples' expense. That is, if you were to reduce the poverty rate and incarcerations among black people, that would not mean poverty and incarcerations for white people would by default or natural effect go up.

In regards to the second paragraph of your post, I couldn't have said it any better. Ultimately I believe it is the people on top that fear change who play the biggest role in maintaining systemic racism.

In regards to education, I think people ultimately need to educate themselves. There's an old joke among people who work in mental health "How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? Just one, but the light bulb has to really want to change"

The point is, changing the hearts and minds of people is only effective when the individuals are willing to make that change. While I carry some admiration for the people who are willing to reach out and try to change peoples' hearts and minds, I do not find it practical to assume that responsibility onto people who are just trying to live their life, and as the OP expressed, racists do not need to be coddled.

 

[jdstorm]

Are you mad that I'm calling racists and bigots idiots? That's the whole discussion right there.

No. Ultimately how you decide to interact with people is your choice. However it does indicate a lack of compassion that could potentially escalate the situation in a negative way.

I also understand what its like to have to explain myself to people almost constantly.

Spoiler

in my situation its that i dont drink alcahol due to depression.

Its annoying, frustrating and often explaining yourself isolates you from various social interactions and causes people to treat you differently in a negative way. Yet the goal of the interaction is for people to treat you the same as they would treat you if they didnt know anything about you.

However for me its worth it because occasionally someone will become less ignorant and start to treat people better then they previously would have. Something that usually benefits me.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Lol what? Polls are dead split. Plus that ignores state level supreme courts.

It was an enforcement of equality under the legality of the equal protections act and those added to the Constitution. Added, might I add, through legal maneuvering not protesting and education.

Bigots will always do whatever they need do to continue to be bigots and justify their bigotry to themselves. I know this firsthand. I'm gonna venture a guess and say damn near all minorities know this.

Your ignorance of history is showing.

1. Poll are not a dead split. Last one early this years was a 61-37 split.

2. The polls had been showing a majority supporting marriage equality for a couple years prior to the decision.

3. State Supreme courts are a hot mess all the time, and they had little to nothing to say in most of the gay marriage cases.

4. Of course it is an Equal Protects (clause.... not act) issue, but my point still stands that if the courts were really the answer to all ills, and we don't need to convince bigots, then they would have done it in 04, or 84, or 64.... but that is not what happened.

The supreme court is very careful to avoid making decisions that are so unpopular that they might be ignored by the president/country. Popular opinion DOES matter, because such an event would mean the end of the SCOTUS.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Having to argue with racists is tiring on every level. Having to explain why you should be allowed to just exist is painful. To some people on the internet, this back and forth is fun and doesn't actually mean anything to their everyday lives. It's a waste of time.

I agree with this:



If you want to help, start there. Instead of telling us to be more like MLK, why don't you give it a try.

You're assuming none of the people suggesting these approaches aren't already trying to engage in long rational discussions about these issues. I try and do it whenever I see an opportunity to. I have had long discussions about why affirmative action is a positive thing and is just trying to even a playing field that was never truly merit based to begin with rather than a system that merely rewards race over choosing the best people. I do try to practice the things I'm talking about whenever I can (which isn't as often as I'd like since I don't actually interact with many people outside my family or Neogaf)

 

[royalan]

If you don't want to shoulder that burden, I don't blame you at all - that's a real shitty hand to be dealt. But you shouldn't be pretending that fighting fire with fire will actually do any good.

Ummm, for who? Because as I said in a different thread, fighting fire with fire does a hell of a lot of good for me. Standing up for my own value does a damn lot of good for me.

And it does a lot of good for the youngest among us. Showing them that we live in a society where they are worth something, that they have value, that they are equal, that they deserve to be protected, and that people who challenge that basic dignity have no place in polite society. It reaffirms them in a way that my comforting words can not. Hell, it's the proof behind my comforting words.

Excusing racism, explaining it way. Letting my young cousins, nieces and nephews believe that people who emotionally harm them, who make them feel less-than because of the color of their skin, or their gender, or who they love, can get away with it with just a nice talk. That those innate things about them are not only still on the debate table, but that the burden is on THEM to prove their own worth? Nah bruh...THAT does damage.

The only person you're protecting here is the racist. And fuck that.

 

[Cabbagehead]

No. Ultimately how you decide to interact with people is your choice. However it does indicate a lack of compassion that could potentially escalate the situation in a negative way.

I also understand what its like to have to explain myself to people almost constantly.

Spoiler

in my situation its that i dont drink alcahol due to depression.

Its annoying, frustrating and often explaining yourself isolates you from various social interactions and causes people to treat you differently in a negative way. Yet the goal of the interaction is for people to treat you the same as they would treat you if they didnt know anything about you.

However for me its worth it because occasionally someone will become less ignorant and start to treat people better then they previously would have. Something that usually benefits me.

I get the example and i understand the merit of the underlying meaning of your statements. But these are two fundamentally different spectrums.

 

[The Artisan]

cool thread, it's just too much for me right now

 

[Frozenprince]

No. Ultimately how you decide to interact with people is your choice. However it does indicate a lack of compassion that could potentially escalate the situation in a negative way.

I also understand what its like to have to explain myself to people almost constantly.

Spoiler

in my situation its that i dont drink alcahol due to depression.

Its annoying, frustrating and often explaining yourself isolates you from various social interactions and causes people to treat you differently in a negative way. Yet the goal of the interaction is for people to treat you the same as they would treat you if they didnt know anything about you.

However for me its worth it because occasionally someone will become less ignorant and start to treat people better then they previously would have. Something that usually benefits me.

Nobody has ever broken your bones fire not drinking, though.

That's the difference our situations. Yours is awful, and I appreciate your struggle being someone with clinical depression myself.

But I have neither the time. Patience. Not desire to educate our interact with bigots, because I am intimately familiar with bigotry.

 

[Slayven]

Ummm, for who? Because as I said in a different thread, fighting fire with fire does a hell of a lot of good for me. Standing up for my own value does a damn lot of good for me.

And it does a lot of good for the youngest among us. Showing them that we live in a society where they are worth something, that they have value, that they are equal, that they deserve to be protected, and that people who challenge that basic dignity have no place in polite society. It reaffirms them in a way that my comforting words can not. Hell, it's the proof behind my comforting words.

Excusing racism, explaining it way. Letting my young cousins, nieces and nephews believe that people who emotionally harm them, who make them feel less-than because of the color of their skin, or their gender, or who they love, can get away with it with just a nice talk. That those innate things about them are not only still on the debate table, but that the burden is on THEM to prove their own worth? Nah bruh...THAT does damage.

The only person you're protecting here is the racist. And fuck that.

And let the church say amen.

 

[Cabbagehead]

cool thread, it's just too much for me right now

We got a dodger here get him!!! /s

 

[BrutishMrFish]

Being silent isn't the answer, but neither is being overly agressive

The problem with that mindset is that different things can be seen as being overly aggressive to different people.

The most aggressive thing Black Lives Matter has done is protest in the streets and shopping malls, and that hasn't stopped a whole bunch of people from calling them a hate group for doing nothing more than communicating their desire to live.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Doing God's work. The little angel sitting on my shoulder, making sure I am making the morally correct choices. I'd probably be a monster if not for you minorities providing me my education. Thank you.

It's why we're here. For you. It's our pleasure just to serve you. It gives our lives meaning.