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Why History Needs Software Piracy

Des0lar

will learn eventually
http://technologizer.com/2012/01/23/why-history-needs-software-piracy/

...
I’m here to offer a different perspective, at least when it comes to software piracy. While the unauthorized duplication of software no doubt causes some financial losses in the short term, the picture looks a bit different if you take a step back.
When viewed in a historical context, the benefits of software piracy far outweigh its short-term costs. If you care about the history of technology, in fact, you should be thankful that people copy software without permission.

...

Piracy’s preserving effect, while little known, is actually nothing new. Through the centuries, the tablets, scrolls, and books that people copied most often and distributed most widely survived to the present. Libraries everywhere would be devoid of Homer, Beowulf, and even The Bible without unauthorized duplication.
The main difference between then and now is that software decays in a matter of years rather than a matter of centuries, turning preservation through duplication into an illegal act. And that’s a serious problem: thousands of pieces of culturally important digital works are vanishing into thin air as we speak.

...

For the past decade, collectors and archivists have been compiling vast collections of out-of-print software for vintage machines (think Apple II, Commodore 64, and the like) and trading them through file sharing services and on “abandonware” websites. Through this process, they’ve created an underground software library that, despite its relative newness, feels like the lost archives of an ancient digital civilization.

As a journalist and historian, I rely on these collections of pirated software to do my job. I’d rather it not be that way, but there is no legal alternative (more on that in a moment).
The compilation of this underground library–a necessary resource for future historians–is a brave act of civil disobedience that needs to continue if we are to protect our digital heritage. As we’ll see, the greatest threats to software history lie not behind us, but directly ahead of us.

...

Imagine if a publisher of 500,000 different printed book titles suddenly ceased operation and magically rendered all sold copies of its books unreadable. Poof. The information contained in them simply vanished. It would represent a cultural catastrophe on the order of the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria in 48 B.C. In that fire, a majority of the Western world’s cultural history up to that point turned to ash.

Now take a look at the iTunes App Store, a 500,000 app repository of digital culture. It’s controlled by a single company, and when it closes some day (or it stops supporting older apps, like Apple already did with the classic iPod), legal access to those apps will vanish. Purchased apps locked on iDevices will meet their doom when those gadgets stop working, as they are prone to do. Even before then, older apps will fade away as developers decline to pay the $100 a year required to keep their wares listed in the store.

From a historical perspective, we can only hope that hackers and pirates have been quietly making archives of as much as they can grab from download services like the iTunes App Store, the PlayStation Store, the Wii Shop Channel, Xbox Live Arcade, and other online app stores.

...

It is up to us, as a generation, to preserve our cultural history. We must also push for reforms in copyright law that allow software to take its rightful place in historical archives without the need to rely upon the work of pirates.
If you love software, buy it, use it, and reward the people who make it. I do it all the time, and I support the industry’s right to make money from its products. But don’t be afraid to stand up for your cultural rights. If you see strict DRM and copy protection that threatens the preservation of history, fight it: copy the work, keep it safe, and eventually share it so it never disappears.

Some people may think ill of your archival efforts now, but they’re on the wrong side of history: no one living 500 years from now will judge your infringing deeds harshly when they can load up an ancient program and see it for themselves.

Very interesting read. More at the link, this is just some tidbits.

What say you GAF? We already have this problem with old games which rights are in limbo right now. The only way to get them is through illegal downloads... Will this change in future?
 

DiscoJer

Member
What we need is to go back to the original idea of copyright - protection for a limited period, renewable another period, then that's it.

IP laws are designed to balance the good between the creator and society as a whole. But they've been tipped mostly in the favor of the owner, which these days is rarely the creator.

As an example, look at Dracula. Since it went into the public domain, how many movies, books, music, etc has it inspired?

But if current copyright law was applied, you wouldn't have seen any of that until 1983

But he's right. While he's thinking about software, this also applies to books. There's a huge wealth of material available, but it stops at 1923. E-readers really made me aware of this. A lot of history is just in limbo. Maybe lost, if the copyright people keep extending it.
 

VALIS

Member
Absolutely. The culture of video games has always been a bit neglectful of its history. There are a few books, a few articles now and then, even fewer documentaries, but generally everything old is plowed over to make way for the new (unless someone thinks they can make money off something old).

A lot of sites are preserving thousands of artifacts so they won't just up and disappear. At some point, most old carts will stop working. Most arcade machines will be irreparable. Lots of old DOS games were already hard to find then, never mind 25+ years later.

Although, I wish websites were more selective and not host anything from the last 10 years at any time. Fuck the leeches who just want new games for free.
 

Coxy

Member
What we need is to go back to the original idea of copyright - protection for a limited period, renewable another period, then that's it.

IP laws are designed to balance the good between the creator and society as a whole. But they've been tipped mostly in the favor of the owner, which these days is rarely the creator.

As an example, look at Dracula. Since it went into the public domain, how many movies, books, music, etc has it inspired?

But if current copyright law was applied, you wouldn't have seen any of that until 1983

But he's right. While he's thinking about software, this also applies to books. There's a huge wealth of material available, but it stops at 1923. E-readers really made me aware of this. A lot of history is just in limbo. Maybe lost, if the copyright people keep extending it.

this, we dont need piracy, we need public domain games when games no longer have a publisher
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
The guy is arguing for illegal stashes, not illegal downloads per se. I agree with the general point, of course.

There should be a reasonable timeout for illegality of this sort. I mean, think about it: We're barfing out content at a pace that makes it pointless to talk about the illegality of copying content from like 7 years ago. You might as well make that content freely stashable then (while of course selling it because why the fuck not).

This walling-off of content that doesn't turn a profit anymore is pretty weird, I think. I'm not sure what the point is. It's not like masses of consumers are going to not buy new stuff because there's all that old stuff.

Just look at the margins of old media. There are the occasional extremes, like Star Wars re-releases or whatever, but most stuff is just literally worthless in the monetary sense.

But of course, businesses generally are ignorant of common good considerations. It's a systemic flaw.
 

eshock

Member
Matt Yglesias harps on this a lot. It's not only beneficial for history and culture in the long term, it helps the economy in the short term as well:

Much of the debate about SOPA and PIPA has thus far centered around the entertainment industry’s absurdly inflated claims about the economic harm of copyright infringement. When making these calculations, intellectual property owners tend to assume that every unauthorized download represents a lost sale. This is clearly false. Often people copy a file illegally precisely because they’re unwilling to pay the market price. Were unauthorized copying not an option, they would simply not watch the movie or listen to the album.

Critics of industry estimates have repeatedly made this point and argued against the inflated figures used by SOPA and Protect IP boosters. But an equally large problem is the failure to consider the benefits to illegal downloading. These benefits can be a simple reduction of what economists call “deadweight loss.” Deadweight loss exists any time the profit-maximizing price of a unit of something exceeds the cost of producing an extra unit. In a highly competitive market in which many sellers are offering largely undifferentiated goods, profit margins are low and deadweight loss is tiny. But the whole point of copyright is that the owner of the rights to, say, Breaking Bad has a monopoly on sales of new episodes of the show. At the same time, producing an extra copy of a Breaking Bad episode is nearly free. So when the powers that be decide that the profit-maximizing strategy is to charge more than $100 to download all four seasons of Breaking Bad from iTunes, they’re creating a situation in which lots of people who’d gain $15 or $85 worth of enjoyment from watching the show can’t watch it. This is “deadweight loss,” and to the extent that copyright infringement reduces it, infringement is a boon to society.

My favorite line:

Online piracy is like fouling in basketball. You want to penalize it to prevent it from getting out of control, but any effort to actually eliminate it would be a cure much worse than the disease.

http://www.slate.com/articles/busin...would_be_a_social_and_economic_disaster_.html
 

Dead Man

Member
What we need is to go back to the original idea of copyright - protection for a limited period, renewable another period, then that's it.

IP laws are designed to balance the good between the creator and society as a whole. But they've been tipped mostly in the favor of the owner, which these days is rarely the creator.

As an example, look at Dracula. Since it went into the public domain, how many movies, books, music, etc has it inspired?

But if current copyright law was applied, you wouldn't have seen any of that until 1983

But he's right. While he's thinking about software, this also applies to books. There's a huge wealth of material available, but it stops at 1923. E-readers really made me aware of this. A lot of history is just in limbo. Maybe lost, if the copyright people keep extending it.

Yep. In terms of the current law, piracy may be the only option to archive software. That does not mean it hsould be seen as an acceptable solution. Fixing copyright is a better solution, but will take a long time, if it happens at all.
 
I see no reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to download an obscure game that has been out of print for 15 years and isn't available on any DD service.

If you can't buy it legally, there's no room to complain when people download it.
 

Dunan

Member
One more vote for old-style 14-year or 28-year copyrights.

Until the 1950s, each generation got to enjoy the creative works of their parents' generation without these restrictions. Today, however, a time will soon come when no living person ever sees anything they've enjoyed come into the public domain. How many people do you know who have vivid memories of the years before 1923? And such people are becoming fewer and fewer every year.
 

Des0lar

will learn eventually
One more vote for old-style 14-year or 28-year copyrights.

Until the 1950s, each generation got to enjoy the creative works of their parents' generation without these restrictions. Today, however, a time will soon come when no living person ever sees anything they've enjoyed come into the public domain. How many people do you know who have vivid memories of the years before 1923? And such people are becoming fewer and fewer every year.

This is something that I find shocking and sad.
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
I see no reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to download an obscure game that has been out of print for 15 years and isn't available on any DD service.

If you can't buy it legally, there's no room to complain when people download it.

Well, the point being made is that to make this work, the game has to be copied illegally. You can't stash a game if it's on Steam, for instance. Steam could be gone in 15 years. So the game would be gone. You have to crack it in some way.

It's even worse for cartridge-based consoles — the hardware literally dies with time, so at some point, the games can't be played anymore without emulation and ROM rips. Also, as soon as all hardware is dead, for emulation purposes, all that is left is illegally distributed BIOSes.

Also, DLC just vanishes, especially for consoles.

It's a question with only illegal answers right now. There are no legal initiatives with the idea of preserving video games reliably, no matter what the method is.


This extends to all kinds of software, or data, of course. Sometimes, legality isn't even the issue. For example, there are a lot of mid-80s demos I'd like to rewatch, but it's either impossible to find them, or the emulators can't pull the quirks off that are used in the demos. Or the timing is off. And so forth.

This has already been an issue often enough to seriously attempt to get some sort of concentrated initiative going. For example, the UK National Archives are trying to get this into view often. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6265976.stm
 
What we need is to go back to the original idea of copyright - protection for a limited period, renewable another period, then that's it.

IP laws are designed to balance the good between the creator and society as a whole. But they've been tipped mostly in the favor of the owner, which these days is rarely the creator.

As an example, look at Dracula. Since it went into the public domain, how many movies, books, music, etc has it inspired?

But if current copyright law was applied, you wouldn't have seen any of that until 1983

But he's right. While he's thinking about software, this also applies to books. There's a huge wealth of material available, but it stops at 1923. E-readers really made me aware of this. A lot of history is just in limbo. Maybe lost, if the copyright people keep extending it.

IP laws deal with more than just copyright. It also is about trademarks, patents, and trade secrets.

But to the subject, copyright law is very large and deals with different mediums and distributions. But anyways... What is really dealt with, is distribution. The fight against piracy is not about the copying but about the distribution afterwards.

None of these companies are going after people for making a personal backup of their software despite the article implying as such.

It is about distribution and the control of distribution. If the company folds, then who is left to go after you? If the Software is not created anymore, on what ground are they going after you for? Unless the company still exists and they plan on selling the same software again, then it would be a non issue.

Matt Yglesias harps on this a lot. It's not only beneficial for history and culture in the long term, it helps the economy in the short term as well:

It doesn't matter what the rights holders decide to charge. As long as they are still around as a company to provide the content then they retain the right to charge whatever they want. Relative assumptions about the value of a product is NOT an ok excuse to pirate something.
 

Dead Man

Member
IP laws deal with more than just copyright. It also is about trademarks, patents, and trade secrets.

But to the subject, copyright law is very large and deals with different mediums and distributions. But anyways... What is really dealt with, is distribution. The fight against piracy is not about the copying but about the distribution afterwards.

None of these companies are going after people for making a personal backup of their software despite the article implying as such.

It is about distribution and the control of distribution. If the company folds, then who is left to go after you? If the Software is not created anymore, on what ground are they going after you for? Unless the company still exists and they plan on selling the same software again, then it would be a non issue.

So you believe bad laws are okay since they are not enforced? And that no company that goes under ever gets its catalogue of IP's bought by another who just sits on them?
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
None of these companies are going after people for making a personal backup of their software despite the article implying as such.
The point is not moral, but factual. Whether or not illegal distribution is supposed to be addressed with proprietary formats and copy protection doesn't matter when the effect in 15 years is that the software is inaccessible.

And this really happens. All the time.
 

Yagharek

Member
Its a perfectly acceptable argument.

Piracy for archiving purposes need never conflict with the right of extant publishers to make money. Its not about getting a game for free when its in its sale period; its about ensuring it can be obtained at all.

This is especially important for games where history seems to be consigned to oblivion every five years.
 
What we need is to go back to the original idea of copyright - protection for a limited period, renewable another period, then that's it.

IP laws are designed to balance the good between the creator and society as a whole. But they've been tipped mostly in the favor of the owner, which these days is rarely the creator.

As an example, look at Dracula. Since it went into the public domain, how many movies, books, music, etc has it inspired?

But if current copyright law was applied, you wouldn't have seen any of that until 1983

But he's right. While he's thinking about software, this also applies to books. There's a huge wealth of material available, but it stops at 1923. E-readers really made me aware of this. A lot of history is just in limbo. Maybe lost, if the copyright people keep extending it.

Gotta extract that rent.
 

maus

Member
Do we really need an archive of every itunes app store game?

Pretty much everything worthy of archival is saved and stored in at least 100 places. The gaming community is pretty on top of this stuff, which this article seems to be unaware of.
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
Do we really need an archive of every itunes app store game?

Pretty much everything worthy of archival is saved and stored in at least 100 places. The gaming community is pretty on top of this stuff, which this article seems to be unaware of.

You can't prejudge this. It's impossible to know what is and isn't in need of an archive in the future.

One scenario where even the shittiest iTunes app matters is when everything else is gone. Think Sumerian records.
 

Des0lar

will learn eventually
IP laws deal with more than just copyright. It also is about trademarks, patents, and trade secrets.

But to the subject, copyright law is very large and deals with different mediums and distributions. But anyways... What is really dealt with, is distribution. The fight against piracy is not about the copying but about the distribution afterwards.

None of these companies are going after people for making a personal backup of their software despite the article implying as such.

It is about distribution and the control of distribution. If the company folds, then who is left to go after you? If the Software is not created anymore, on what ground are they going after you for? Unless the company still exists and they plan on selling the same software again, then it would be a non issue.




It doesn't matter what the rights holders decide to charge. As long as they are still around as a company to provide the content then they retain the right to charge whatever they want. Relative assumptions about the value of a product is NOT an ok excuse to pirate something.

Problem is there are cases where companies could very well sue you because they still own the rights, but they aren't doing anything with them. They just sit on old (in this case) games that no one is able to legally distribute or buy. Stupid practice.
 

C.Dark.DN

Banned
Pretty much. In 10 years if something was never released on home video or in HD for example you're gonna hope to god someone archived it.

But in present times I do see the issues.
 

Sectus

Member
He has a very good point, and I think there's another huge obstacle regarding this, which is how it's becoming more and more common for games to rely on servers to function properly.

For instance: xbox 1 live going down meant that ALL xbox 1 games are now impossible to play online. That's never gonna return (unless someone manages to recreate the matchmaking servers for xbox live). Almost every MMO (many get private servers, but they are rarely like the real thing). EA loves to tie multiplayer to matchmaking servers, and they're already taking them down after a couple of years, and many of these don't support LAN or direct ip which means it's impossible to access the multiplayer anymore.

I think publishers shoulder consider this when releasing games. It seems like there's no good solution when it comes to console games or MMOs, but when releasing ordinary PC games I wish they'd consider adding support for direct ip for multiplayer. That way they're ensuring the games will be playable practically forever.
 
You can't prejudge this. It's impossible to know what is and isn't in need of an archive in the future.

That's true, many games that were deemed not worthy of note at the time of release have interest if the programmer went on to create better culturally significant games.

Nobody cares about Girls Garden on the SG100 but they do care about Yuji Naka's first game.
 

alstein

Member
It's going to take some judge claiming the profit is so small or nonexistant that the copyright holder lacks "Standing to sue" and throws the case out to set a precedent.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
As a justification for piracy, it is a rubbish argument. If a future historian wants to research ancient video games do you think he is going to turn up at your great-grandchild's house and ask if they have any? (EDIT: plus, I bet your great-grandchild threw them all out last time they moved house.) Besides, I can think of nothing worse than a whole generation or two of - probably publically funded - historians spending their time playing old videogames. Even worse, they'd probably make study of it compulsory in schools and turn children off gaming for life. And history.

He has better arguments later on in the article, there's no reason to not set up a law requiring the deposit of copyrighted software in copyright libraries (in a non-DRM platform-neutral form) - after all, we've had pretty much the same thing with copyright libraries for books for ages.

History is selective: historians depend for their living on data being missing, unreliable, obscure, speculative. If everything was known and everything preserved historians would be out of business and we'd just have a whole load of archivists. That's no fun at all.

Besides, if it is mandatory to preserve stuff for future historians, we'd better all start recording what we had for breakfast every day, because HISTORY NEEDS IT.
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
History is selective: historians depend for their living on data being missing, unreliable, obscure, speculative. If everything was known and everything preserved historians would be out of business and we'd just have a whole load of archivists. That's no fun at all.

This is not necessarily true. For instance, my uncle is currently involved in an effort to date ceramic vessels from a specific period. They have insane amounts of data, the work he's doing though needs to correlate the data. There's still going to be some sort of paper coming out of this, and it'll be filed under "History-related".

Also, generally, historians really ARE, more often than not, archivists.
 
I believe that when something has been out for 3-5+ years, they really don't care about the piracy anymore. they know their target public is already gone already. Maybe a few scattered sales, but not really making a huge profit like the launch and short term sales mean to them. That's the moment it really pisses them off, with a valid reason.

And to the mention of Dracula and public domain. They just have to pay them royalties, which is what they prefer not to do to make it cheaper for them. Let's look at a huge amount of IP in a game: Kingdom Hearts. If all the Disney characters were public domain, the only difference would be that square would've been able to do it without paying them a dime for it.
 

maus

Member
As a justification for piracy, it is a rubbish argument. If a future historian wants to research ancient video games do you think he is going to turn up at your great-grandchild's house and ask if they have any? (EDIT: plus, I bet your great-grandchild threw them all out last time they moved house.) Besides, I can think of nothing worse than a whole generation or two of - probably publically funded - historians spending their time playing old videogames. Even worse, they'd probably make study of it compulsory in schools and turn children off gaming for life. And history.

He has better arguments later on in the article, there's no reason to not set up a law requiring the deposit of copyrighted software in copyright libraries (in a non-DRM platform-neutral form) - after all, we've had pretty much the same thing with copyright libraries for books for ages.

History is selective: historians depend for their living on data being missing, unreliable, obscure, speculative. If everything was known and everything preserved historians would be out of business and we'd just have a whole load of archivists. That's no fun at all.

Besides, if it is mandatory to preserve stuff for future historians, we'd better all start recording what we had for breakfast every day, because HISTORY NEEDS IT.

good post
 

Zaptruder

Banned
As a justification for piracy, it is a rubbish argument. If a future historian wants to research ancient video games do you think he is going to turn up at your great-grandchild's house and ask if they have any? (EDIT: plus, I bet your great-grandchild threw them all out last time they moved house.) Besides, I can think of nothing worse than a whole generation or two of - probably publically funded - historians spending their time playing old videogames. Even worse, they'd probably make study of it compulsory in schools and turn children off gaming for life. And history.

He has better arguments later on in the article, there's no reason to not set up a law requiring the deposit of copyrighted software in copyright libraries (in a non-DRM platform-neutral form) - after all, we've had pretty much the same thing with copyright libraries for books for ages.

History is selective: historians depend for their living on data being missing, unreliable, obscure, speculative. If everything was known and everything preserved historians would be out of business and we'd just have a whole load of archivists. That's no fun at all.

Besides, if it is mandatory to preserve stuff for future historians, we'd better all start recording what we had for breakfast every day, because HISTORY NEEDS IT.

These seem more like reaching arguments - a scattershot to foil the general idea of piracy.

If you can, why not preserve it? Also, even with all the data available today - journalists are still required to 'paint a portrait' from the mountain of data - and that job will continue on, even as new information and data is added - at some point, the job transitions from journalists to historians.

Moreover, there's much utility and social value to precariously balancing the rights and incentives of creators with the value and instruction that their creations provide society.
 

wilflare

Member
just the guy i'm looking for, would love to interview him.
we all heard alot about war historians, etc.
but a historian that specializes in history of video games? that's rare
 

Dead Man

Member
As a justification for piracy, it is a rubbish argument. If a future historian wants to research ancient video games do you think he is going to turn up at your great-grandchild's house and ask if they have any? (EDIT: plus, I bet your great-grandchild threw them all out last time they moved house.) Besides, I can think of nothing worse than a whole generation or two of - probably publically funded - historians spending their time playing old videogames. Even worse, they'd probably make study of it compulsory in schools and turn children off gaming for life. And history.

He has better arguments later on in the article, there's no reason to not set up a law requiring the deposit of copyrighted software in copyright libraries (in a non-DRM platform-neutral form) - after all, we've had pretty much the same thing with copyright libraries for books for ages.

History is selective: historians depend for their living on data being missing, unreliable, obscure, speculative. If everything was known and everything preserved historians would be out of business and we'd just have a whole load of archivists. That's no fun at all.

Besides, if it is mandatory to preserve stuff for future historians, we'd better all start recording what we had for breakfast every day, because HISTORY NEEDS IT.
I think you have missded a couple things here. If there is no legal way to archive something, then archiving it is an act of piracy. Of course people are not going to go around to Johhnys house to see what he downloaded off the torrents. But if a researcher makes an archive of protected works, that could easily be piracy too.

Secondly, your argument against having better records reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what a historian does. They don't just archive what happened, they try to explain why it happened and how.

Thirdly, I think a lot of people would have made a similar argument about films in the early 1900's. Not wanting a bunch of historians sitting around on the publics dollar watching movies. It was silly then, and it is silly now.
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
I think it has to be pointed out that the author is applauding the meticulousness and methodology of the cracking and piracy scene, not the intent. And he's of course aware that his benefit is a lucky side effect.

Noone in here is saying that it's cool to download Crysis 2 for PS3. Neither does the author.
 
I think we can all agree that games are archived. I mean, i'm totally sure companies and even the people who worked on it have the game in compiled and sourcecode form, for sure. I agree though that when one can't find a game anymore there's no harm in "pirating" it. Which is why many games that aren't printed anymore are in steam and the likes.
 

Yagharek

Member
I think it has to be pointed out that the author is applauding the meticulousness and methodology of the cracking and piracy scene, not the intent. And he's of course aware that his benefit is a lucky side effect.

Noone in here is saying that it's cool to download Crysis 2 for PS3. Neither does the author.


Exactly. Phisheep missed this point in his rush to post his facetious last paragraph.

Also, look at a recent classic game as an example: Panzer Dragoon Saga is, relatively speaking, dangerously close to vanishing. I sure hope people out there have archived the game, seeing how Sega didn't.
 

Dead Man

Member
I think we can all agree that games are archived. I mean, i'm totally sure companies and even the people who worked on it have the game in compiled and sourcecode form, for sure. I agree though that when one can't find a game anymore there's no harm in "pirating" it. Which is why many games that aren't printed anymore are in steam and the likes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_Dragoon_Saga

Although the game is frequently requested to be re-released on a modern format, thus far the game remains a Saturn-only release. Team leader Yukio Futatsugi has also confirmed that the original source code for the game has been lost, adding further weight to the unlikelihood of a port. There is now a demand from fans for the source code to be recovered

Don't count on it. Company archives are vulnerable to all sorts of things.
 
I think we can all agree that games are archived. I mean, i'm totally sure companies and even the people who worked on it have the game in compiled and sourcecode form, for sure. I agree though that when one can't find a game anymore there's no harm in "pirating" it. Which is why many games that aren't printed anymore are in steam and the likes.

Companies have lost the source code to entire games before. Like Capcom losing the five GB Mega Man games.
 
I think we can all agree that games are archived. I mean, i'm totally sure companies and even the people who worked on it have the game in compiled and sourcecode form, for sure. I agree though that when one can't find a game anymore there's no harm in "pirating" it. Which is why many games that aren't printed anymore are in steam and the likes.

What? The source for Panzer Dragoon Saga is completely gone, for one example.

edit: beaten
 

Dunan

Member
I think we can all agree that games are archived. I mean, i'm totally sure companies and even the people who worked on it have the game in compiled and sourcecode form, for sure.

Here too, "not sure if serious". The source code has been lost for the original Wipeout games, for example.

In the pre-DLC era I would have thought that public libraries would be a perfect vehicle for making sure every game is archived and made available to the public. But now, with DRMed single-user content becoming the norm, only one person will ever get to experience the content owned by the "Springfield_Public_Library" PSN account, for example.

Given the speed of technology obsolescence, I'd advocate a very short copyright period for electronic media. Basically the problem is that since copyright protection doesn't cost anything, there's no reason for a copyright holder to ever want to relinquish that right. It should cost money, and that cost should go up as the product gets older and the value in society having free access to it comes to outweigh the value to society in the original creator profiting off it. I've seen schemes where copyright fees double with each passing year. Surely something can be worked out.
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
I think we can all agree that games are archived. I mean, i'm totally sure companies and even the people who worked on it have the game in compiled and sourcecode form, for sure.
Nope. That stuff tends to vanish eventually. Like socks in the dryer. Developers aren't necessarily good with that.

It's gotten better with the praxis of using server-based version control software. But it still happens.

And some old games noone gave a shit about are gone for good already. I've got some shareware diskettes from the early Atari ST days that are not recoverable because time eats magnetic data, and I don't know anyone that really ever cared about that stuff enough to redundantly make backups of it. Least of all the developers of those days.

I can just look at myself. I wrote text adventures in Omikron BASIC back then (albeit not in a commercial context). They're all gone because noone, me included, gave a shit.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
This is not necessarily true. For instance, my uncle is currently involved in an effort to date ceramic vessels from a specific period. They have insane amounts of data, the work he's doing though needs to correlate the data. There's still going to be some sort of paper coming out of this, and it'll be filed under "History-related".

If you can, why not preserve it? Also, even with all the data available today - journalists are still required to 'paint a portrait' from the mountain of data - and that job will continue on, even as new information and data is added - at some point, the job transitions from journalists to historians.

Moreover, there's much utility and social value to precariously balancing the rights and incentives of creators with the value and instruction that their creations provide society.

Secondly, your argument against having better records reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what a historian does. They don't just archive what happened, they try to explain why it happened and how.

Thirdly, I think a lot of people would have made a similar argument about films in the early 1900's. Not wanting a bunch of historians sitting around on the publics dollar watching movies. It was silly then, and it is silly now.

Hey guys, my best friend is a historian (17th century naval specialist)!

But even so, I'm not convinced that 'preserving things for future historians' is a rational reason for doing - well anything really. The future will be what it will be, and if it doesn't have like total archives of what happened in the early 21st century then I can't see that it is necessarily going to be worse off in terms of anything that's actually important. For example, we muddle along quite nicely now despite not having the complete works of Heraclitus.

Like your point about early movies Dead Man, but would we really be any worse off if we didn't have those archives? I don't think so - something else would fill the gap.
 

maus

Member
I can't believe there are people worried about games "disappearing" just because piracy laws exist

I guarantee there will be a ten thousand petabyte hard drive with every video game known to man buried in the earth somewhere, long after humanity has wiped itself out.
 
Hey guys, my best friend is a historian (17th century naval specialist)!

But even so, I'm not convinced that 'preserving things for future historians' is a rational reason for doing - well anything really. The future will be what it will be, and if it doesn't have like total archives of what happened in the early 21st century then I can't see that it is necessarily going to be worse off in terms of anything that's actually important. For example, we muddle along quite nicely now despite not having the complete works of Heraclitus.

Like your point about early movies Dead Man, but would we really be any worse off if we didn't have those archives? I don't think so - something else would fill the gap.

Good lord.
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
I can't believe there are people worried about games "disappearing" just because piracy laws exist

I guarantee there will be a ten thousand petabyte hard drive with every video game known to man buried in the earth somewhere, long after humanity has wiped itself out.

What if there's a World War in 10 years? Cities burning and all?

You can't guarantee anything, really.

And there is no 5 terabyte hard drive with every video game known to man up to the year 2000 buried in the earth somewhere RIGHT NOW. So that should be an indicator.
 
Hey guys, my best friend is a historian (17th century naval specialist)!

But even so, I'm not convinced that 'preserving things for future historians' is a rational reason for doing - well anything really. The future will be what it will be, and if it doesn't have like total archives of what happened in the early 21st century then I can't see that it is necessarily going to be worse off in terms of anything that's actually important. For example, we muddle along quite nicely now despite not having the complete works of Heraclitus.

Like your point about early movies Dead Man, but would we really be any worse off if we didn't have those archives? I don't think so - something else would fill the gap.

Seriously? You have no problem with old movies or games just being lost forever?

It's not a question of whether or not society will be perfectly fine without them (of course it will). I don't see what's wrong with wanting to preserve these things so that future generations can enjoy them.

I also disagree with the notion that something else will just fill the gap.
 

maus

Member
What if there's a World War in 10 years? Cities burning and all?

You can't guarantee anything, really.

And there is no 5 terabyte hard drive with every video game known to man up to the year 2000 buried in the earth somewhere RIGHT NOW. So that should be an indicator.

Well then I'm loading up a flash drive with my top 5 and burying it in the backyard right now, I suggest you do the same.

No post-apocalyptic civilization will go without experiencing Mario or Sonic. Not on my watch.
 
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