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[LiquidMetal14]

What's the point of anything we've created then? That's an incredibly narrow mind view.

Yeah, not really sure where he's going with that.

Nothing is that important but then it is at the same time. Games are no different than movies in their value. At least to me they are the same.

 

[captmorgan]

You never ditributed your product openly, did you? So no one will force you to archive it. Once you put your game on your homepage or in some indie bundle, yes then there is reason to archive it since a lot of people might have played it.

So there`s a threshold on how many people must play your game, read your book or watch your movie before it must be archived? I wonder what that number is.

 

[KevinCow]

I doubt anybody making the copies of these games is doing it specifically for these historical purposes. That would be naive. They're not philanthropists. They're people who want free games and want to help other people get free games.

But the archives of old games are a nice side effect of all that.

It's nice, to me, to know that even if Nintendo went out of business tomorrow, refused to sell the rights to any of their stuff, and every piece of hardware they'd ever made eventually stopped working, I'll still be able to show my grandchildren Super Mario Bros. in 50 years. I'd prefer to have the option to give Nintendo money for it, but I know there's a backup source if I can't.

 

[Postman]

1. the op is more about application tools not games.
2. its all retarded "trying to justify" criminal behavior so they don't fill guilty.

 

[Garcia]

Fantastic OP, and a wonderful approach to the value of videogames as a means of human expression.

 

[wolfmat]

So there`s a threshold on how many people must play your game, read your book or watch your movie before it must be archived? I wonder what that number is.

Of course there's no specific threshold. And nothing must be archived.

If you asked a historian, then yes, EVERYTHING would have to be archived. If they had their way, you'd splice your genes and collect your shit.

If you asked a company like Ubisoft right now, then nothing is to be archived. The product is only supposed to exist as long as it can generate profit, and everything beyond that is optimally illegal, because otherwise, the argument goes, it could've turned up more profit, and by not doing that, it is the same as stealing money.

The point is that by the current letter of the law, nothing outside of original media is to be archived. And that's just not going to work out in the end. Software preservation is pointless without the appropriate means to run it. If it's even usable.

Ideally though, we'd archive everything in such a manner that it would be available, runnable, forever.

Pirates are still dicks, of course, but they're helping in the effort, albeit unwillingly. Pirates do not seed torrents to help historians, obviously. They want to show off their e-peen or something like that.

Again, if you look at these hosted illegal copies from the viewpoint of a historian though, then it's great that the games are readily available, playable, you can analyze them thoroughly and so forth, all that without having to rely on a perfect preservation effort from companies, who really aren't willing to help out there anyway. (Costs money, right? So no. That's the classic profit-oriented argument.)

We're lucky in that regard that there are so many console hardware enthusiasts out there. Specifically emulator writers are very important people in that sense. Without them, good luck in finding all the pristine SNESes you'd need for the different versions of games, for example.

If you're saying, "but why give a shit?", then you're just arguing against historians in general. You could do that, I however applaud their efforts. For example, I find reading about the crazy stuff the Romans did very entertaining. I find reading reviews of the Red Scare very insightful. This will of course expand to video game media of the 1970s-2010s eventually, we just don't really get it because we're still in the thick of it, and because we grew up with it and are so intimately familiar with the most intricate details. That'll pass though. I hope someone can connect the dots generations later and relive this crazy nerd nonsense, set it in relation to general social movements at our times, make smart remarks about all that, and if it's done because someone torrented Megadrive games like a madman, then so be it.

In a sense, this is something that goes parallel to the first archaeologists blatantly stealing from Egyptian graves, then hoarding the treasures in museums of oppressing countries. Sure, at the time, it was a horrible thing to do. Now, the treasure hasn't rotten away because of it.

Not ideal, yes. And piracy sucks. That's why I argue for a concerted effort by the game industry to consciously preserve everything in an open digital format, preferrably in a manner that doesn't make it trivial to distribute that collection for profit. But for that to happen, they'd have to organize somehow in the first place.

Too bad that these kinds of efforts require that an industry matures. Because the weirdest stuff is usually in the early, unorganized years.

Amusingly, DRM itself will be subject to historical review eventually. So we need to preserve that as well!

 

[Des0lar]

So there`s a threshold on how many people must play your game, read your book or watch your movie before it must be archived? I wonder what that number is.

There is a difference between making something for yourself or for a friend, or making something for the public, for everyone. Don't you see that?

 

[Postman]

There is a difference between making something for yourself or for a friend, or making something for the public, for everyone. Don't you see that?

you forgot "and making something to sell for a profit."

 

[BruiserBear]

I doubt anybody making the copies of these games is doing it specifically for these historical purposes. That would be naive. They're not philanthropists. They're people who want free games and want to help other people get free games.

But the archives of old games are a nice side effect of all that.

It's nice, to me, to know that even if Nintendo went out of business tomorrow, refused to sell the rights to any of their stuff, and every piece of hardware they'd ever made eventually stopped working, I'll still be able to show my grandchildren Super Mario Bros. in 50 years. I'd prefer to have the option to give Nintendo money for it, but I know there's a backup source if I can't.

This.

 

[MC Safety]

I think pirates will use any excuse, any rationalization to make them feel better about what they're doing.

And I'm not sure why it's okay to apply this rationalization to old games but not, say, new games. Because you can preserve new games for history, too, can't you? I mean, it's not really stealing games -- you're doing it for a very noble cause.

 

[Jake Tower]

Of course there's no specific threshold. And nothing must be archived.

If you asked a historian, then yes, EVERYTHING would have to be archived. If they had their way, you'd splice your genes and collect your shit.

If you asked a company like Ubisoft right now, then nothing is to be archived. The product is only supposed to exist as long as it can generate profit, and everything beyond that is optimally illegal, because otherwise, the argument goes, it could've turned up more profit, and by not doing that, it is the same as stealing money.

The point is that by the current letter of the law, nothing outside of original media is to be archived. And that's just not going to work out in the end. Software preservation is pointless without the appropriate means to run it. If it's even usable.

Ideally though, we'd archive everything in such a manner that it would be available, runnable, forever.

Pirates are still dicks, of course, but they're helping in the effort, albeit unwillingly. Pirates do not seed torrents to help historians, obviously. They want to show off their e-peen or something like that.

Again, if you look at these hosted illegal copies from the viewpoint of a historian though, then it's great that the games are readily available, playable, you can analyze them thoroughly and so forth, all that without having to rely on a perfect preservation effort from companies, who really aren't willing to help out there anyway. (Costs money, right? So no. That's the classic profit-oriented argument.)

We're lucky in that regard that there are so many console hardware enthusiasts out there. Specifically emulator writers are very important people in that sense. Without them, good luck in finding all the pristine SNESes you'd need for the different versions of games, for example.

If you're saying, "but why give a shit?", then you're just arguing against historians in general. You could do that, I however applaud their efforts. For example, I find reading about the crazy stuff the Romans did very entertaining. I find reading reviews of the Red Scare very insightful. This will of course expand to video game media of the 1970s-2010s eventually, we just don't really get it because we're still in the thick of it, and because we grew up with it and are so intimately familiar with the most intricate details. That'll pass though. I hope someone can connect the dots generations later and relive this crazy nerd nonsense, set it in relation to general social movements at our times, make smart remarks about all that, and if it's done because someone torrented Megadrive games like a madman, then so be it.

In a sense, this is something that goes parallel to the first archaeologists blatantly stealing from Egyptian graves, then hoarding the treasures in museums of oppressing countries. Sure, at the time, it was a horrible thing to do. Now, the treasure hasn't rotten away because of it.

Not ideal, yes. And piracy sucks. That's why I argue for a concerted effort by the game industry to consciously preserve everything in an open digital format, preferrably in a manner that doesn't make it trivial to distribute that collection for profit. But for that to happen, they'd have to organize somehow in the first place.

Too bad that these kinds of efforts require that an industry matures. Because the weirdest stuff is usually in the early, unorganized years.

Amusingly, DRM itself will be subject to historical review eventually. So we need to preserve that as well!

Fantastic post!

 

[The Technomancer]

I agree with a lot of the posts raised in this thread, but I cringe every time this subject comes up because I know there are people (more in the 4chan kind of crowd then on here) who use stuff like this to say to themselves "yeah...I'm actually almost doing something good" while they have sixteen torrents seeding in the background.

 

[linkboy]

A perfect example of what the author is talking about is the film Nosferatu. When it was made in 1922, it was made without permission from Stoker's estate (the film is a total ripoff of Dracula).

Stoker's widow sued for copyright infringement and won and one of the rulings from the case was that all copies of the film were to be destroyed.

The only reason why the film still exists today is because people went and made copies of it.

 

[Agent X]

Several years ago, I posted here about the Commodore 64 Direct-to-TV, an excellent self-contained video game machine featuring an updated recreation of the Commodore 64 chipset and 30 games. Although all of the included games on the C64DTV were licensed from the IP holders, I had read somewhere that for a few of the games, the designers of the C64DTV resorted to replicating pirated copies, because the originals were difficult to obtain and/or had copy protection that was difficult to crack. Adapting the pirated copies saved them a great deal of time and effort in the creation of this new, fully licensed product.

 

[phisheep]

You might have a historian as a friend, but you are certainly not a historian. We don't need data being missing to have a "job", our job is to analyze the material we have. And the more data is preserved, the better. Yes, even your breakfast habits!

Oh, certainly. But given that I don't see there is any crying need to encourage historians any more.

 

[JWong]

Uuuh why not archive through legitimate ways?

Movies and Books are archived legitimately.

A dumb argument imo.

 

[Postman]

A perfect example of what the author is talking about is the film Nosferatu. When it was made in 1922, it was made without permission from Stoker's estate (the film is a total ripoff of Dracula).

Stoker's widow sued for copyright infringement and won and one of the rulings from the case was that all copies of the film were to be destroyed.

The only reason why the film still exists today is because people went and made copies of it.

Yeah that is exactly what is happening today. :/ People are preserving stolen software because it is all getting destroyed .. gotcha.

 

[XOMTOR]

Thanks to GAF, I was introduced to the No One Lives Forever games. Well after looking around the web, I came to realize that they're not available digitally anywhere. You also can't purchase them at retail as they're out of print. Luckily, you can still snag used copies on eBay so I did. Sounds great right? Unfortunately, they're no longer playable on modern Windows systems without some very creative maneuvering. In the end I did manage to get them working but it's not something the average Joe is going to undertake.

It appears that the IP is owned by Warner but for some reason they're just sitting on them, probably because they're not games that would bring in enough profit to bother with. So for now they remain as abandonware which is a damn shame.

 

[Pureauthor]

Uuuh why not archive through legitimate ways?

Legitimate ways... such as?

 

[Postman]

Thanks to GAF, I was introduced to the No One Lives Forever games. Well after looking around the web, I came to realize that they're not available digitally anywhere. You also can't purchase them at retail as they're out of print. Luckily, you can still snag used copies on eBay so I did. Sounds great right? Unfortunately, they're no longer playable on modern Windows systems without some very creative maneuvering. In the end I did manage to get them working but it's not something the average Joe is going to undertake.

It appears that the IP is owned by Warner but for some reason they're just sitting on them, probably because they're not games that would bring in enough profit to bother with. So for now they remain as abandonware which is a damn shame.

So that gives people to right to steal them? If I had an old mustang rotting in my backyard does that mean anyone can just come and take it?

 

[Theonik]

Uuuh why not archive through legitimate ways?

Movies and Books are archived legitimately.

A dumb argument imo.

The nature of books allows them to be so. With games things get a lot more complicated.
Also there is a reason why digital book archives exist, to do the same thing with games you basically need the efforts of pirates. With the current situation piracy is a necessary evil in this regard.

Yeah that is exactly what is happening today. :/ People are preserving stolen software because it is all getting destroyed .. gotcha.

In a way yes. Working copies of older games and the machines to run them are only getting more scarce. Of course I would like to stress that I'm not saying the main reason piracy exists is this or that it's not harmful for developers, that is beyond the point here.

So that gives people to right to steal them? If I had an old mustang rottingin my backyard does that mean anyone can just come and take it?

If I could make a copy of your Mustang sure.

 

[Des0lar]

So that gives people to right to steal them? If I had an old mustang rotting in my backyard does that mean anyone can just come and take it?

Firstly, the comparison would be that someone is studying your mustang and making a copy of it, not stealing it.

Also, it seems to me you don't get the point the author was making. Yes piracy is bad bla bla we all know it. But the industry in it's current form NEEDS someone to pirate stuff so that it doesn't disappear in the future.
Is the one guy who plays his pirated copy of CoD a hero then? No. His just a pirate. But the ones who crack open the code and make it possible to play games that would be unavailable by any other means are not filthy pirates but are preserving stuff that would be lost otherwise (see the discussion about Panzer Dragoon Saga)

This also goes for books and movies. What if in my country a certain movie is banned, or otherwise unavailable? Pirates are the ones who make it possible for me to watch it then.
There is more to piracy than just black and white. I am strictly FOR supporting the company that is producing the goods you desire, but when there is no way for you to get it legally, I don't see the big problem there.

 

[Postman]

Firstly, the comparison would be that someone is studying your mustang and making a copy of it, not stealing it.

Just another BS justifying comment. Pirating is like counterfeiting money. You can make a bill that looks just like another bill with out stealing from anyone directly but in the end its lessens the overall value of everyone's money. In pirating case it is just going to cause the prices of games to go up or content to go down and be sold as addons digitally.

Not pointed at Des0lar just in general...

And that leads to the number 2 BS comment. " They would not have bought it anyway, its not a lost sale". First of all not wanting to buy something does not give you any rights to have it. Secondly if you think piracy never equals lost sales then you are crazy.

There is no excuses. PERIOD. no grand historical values .. no grand "FIGHTING THE MAN" concepts.

 

[Des0lar]

Just another BS justifying comment. Pirating is like counterfeiting money. You can make a bill that looks just like another bill with out stealing from anyone directly but in the end its lessens the overall value of everyone's money. In pirating case it is just going to cause the prices of games to go up or content to go down and be sold as addons digitally.

Not pointed at Des0lar just in general...

And that leads to the number 2 BS comment. " They would not have bought it anyway, its not a lost sale". First of all not wanting to buy something does not give you any rights to have it. Secondly if you think piracy never equals lost sales then you are crazy.

There is no excuses. PERIOD. no grand historical values .. no grand "FIGHTING THE MAN" concepts.

As I said, downloading something that would be readily available to you is something I cannot support. But there are a lot of cases where it is simply impossible to get the product if it weren't for pirates who upload it to the net.
And nobody in here thinks that piracy never equals a lost sale, because it's not true. But is every downloaded copy a lost sale? Certainly not.

Also, directed at the first part: counterfeiting money is still not stealing is it? It's forbidden by law but there are other punishments dished out for stealing and for counterfeiting right?

 

[KevinCow]

Yeah that is exactly what is happening today. :/ People are preserving stolen software because it is all getting destroyed .. gotcha.

Tell me how you'll play, say, Goldeneye after all the original carts have stopped working. It'll almost certainly never be rereleased, given the clusterfuck of its licensing issues. Should the game just cease to exist? Nobody should ever be able to play it again?

 

[Theonik]

I think I'll just leave this link here.

 

[Zaptruder]

Hey guys, my best friend is a historian (17th century naval specialist)!

But even so, I'm not convinced that 'preserving things for future historians' is a rational reason for doing - well anything really. The future will be what it will be, and if it doesn't have like total archives of what happened in the early 21st century then I can't see that it is necessarily going to be worse off in terms of anything that's actually important. For example, we muddle along quite nicely now despite not having the complete works of Heraclitus.

Like your point about early movies Dead Man, but would we really be any worse off if we didn't have those archives? I don't think so - something else would fill the gap.

phisheep, the world will continue muddling along with or without a great many things that we think are necessary to society.

So while yes, a complete collection of the works of our 20th and 21st centuries are relative niceties in the grand scheme of things, their value is nonetheless of great value and interest in the overall social/cultural fabric of humanity.

At some point, you need to stop and simply ask yourself; why are the laws the way they are? Should we not be concerned with laws that provide society with the greatest efficacy? We encourage and reward producers, because their production has great benefits on society. But is it necessarily the most effective use of human resources to slant things only in the favour of producers? Is monetary incentive the only reason for the production of great works?

In my view; As long as the market is able to incentivize the production of new and innovative things - the ability to get those experiences out to as many people as possible is the best way of maximizing the efficacy of said works. The work provides greater cultural influence, it provides more discussion and consideration.

 

[Postman]

Tell me how you'll play, say, Goldeneye after all the original carts have stopped working. It'll almost certainly never be rereleased, given the clusterfuck of its licensing issues. Should the game just cease to exist? Nobody should ever be able to play it again?

If I own golden eye IP and I didn't want it copied or preserved. Then yes. It is not up to you what I should do with my property.

 

[Des0lar]

If I own golden eye IP and I didn't want it copied or preserved. Then yes. It is not up to you what I should do with my property.

The idea is though, that you can't just release something to the public and then take it away from them.
Imagine doing that with a book. The world today doesn't work in that way.

And by blocking the Golden Eye IP but doing nothing to preserve it you are effectivly destroying information. You wouldn't force people to burn their books right?

 

[MC Safety]

Also, directed at the first part: counterfeiting money is still not stealing is it? It's forbidden by law but there are other punishments dished out for stealing and for counterfeiting right?

Counterfeiting is a crime. As is piracy. The argument here is that piracy is not theft, but rather copyright infringement. Because you're not physically stealing anything, but making a copy.

It's a logic jumble pirates use to justify their behavior. But, really, no matter how you try and wrap your head around it, it's something for nothing.

The analogy is sound with counterfeiting. There is no physical theft involved, but rather a criminal act that devalues a product or currency or license, etc.

 

[Des0lar]

Counterfeiting is a crime. As is piracy. The argument here is that piracy is not theft, but rather copyright infringement. Because you're not physically stealing anything, but making a copy.

It's a logic jumble pirates use to justify their behavior. But, really, no matter how you try and wrap your head around it, it's something for nothing.

The analogy is sound with counterfeiting. There is no physical theft involved, but rather a criminal act that devalues a product or currency or license, etc.

Well, I agreed with his analogy... so I don't know.. Are you agreeing with me? Sorry I don't get it.

Yes the analogy is valid. But the difference is that piracy can have positive impacts on the game/gaming as a whole, while counterfeiting has none except for the one who does it.

 

[Theonik]

If I own golden eye IP and I didn't want it copied or preserved. Then yes. It is not up to you what I should do with my property.

By the merit of the purpose copyright laws were actually founded on no. Anything which is created should eventually go out in the public domain to be available for everyone. The reason copyright even exists is to grant the people that create these IPs a temporary monopoly over their creations to allow them to be able to make money on these IPs as an incentive to stimulate cultural growth. It is for the better of society that these works are preserved for future generations to study and enjoy. I personally would hate a world where upcoming game developers and gamers alike were not able to experience goldeneye. Now the cultural impact each game may have is up for debate but the point still stands.

 

[XOMTOR]

So that gives people to right to steal them? If I had an old mustang rotting in my backyard does that mean anyone can just come and take it?

I never said anything about "stealing", I was just providing an example of really great games that are quickly being relegated to the dustbin of history.

BTW, is there anyway to contact GOG to make suggestions for games that we'd like to see available? It'd be nice to have these games available there.

The analogy is sound with counterfeiting. There is no physical theft involved, but rather a criminal act that devalues a product or currency or license, etc.

Actually, in the case of abandonware, wouldn't a better analogy be counterfeiting old currency that is no longer legal tender?

 

[MC Safety]

Well, I agreed with his analogy... so I don't know.. Are you agreeing with me? Sorry I don't get it.

Yes the analogy is valid. But the difference is that piracy can have positive impacts on the game/gaming as a whole, while counterfeiting has none except for the one who does it.

I'm sure game developers and publishers would disagree with your assessment.

And I was just pointing out that "piracy isn't theft" is a big mantra for people who don't want to pay for stuff.

Actually, in the case of abandonware, wouldn't a better analogy be counterfeiting old currency that is no longer legal tender?

I'm not sure how to qualify abandonware. I know sometimes the intellectual property is held by a group that simply doesn't exist anymore. But more and more companies are reviving old games in compilations and for downloadable content. So it's not always defunct currency, as it were.

 

[Des0lar]

I'm sure game developers and publishers would disagree with your assessment.

And I was just pointing out that "piracy isn't theft" is a big mantra for people who don't want to pay for stuff.



I'm not sure how to qualify abandonware. I know sometimes the intellectual property is held by a group that simply doesn't exist anymore. But more and more companies are reviving old games in compilations and for downloadable content. So it's not always defunct currency, as it were.

Yeah but this thrad is exactly about this kind of stuff. Programs that do not get published in certain countries at all, programs where the rights are lost in limbo.... The only ones that make it possible to still have access to those are pirates.

 

[TheExodu5]

Can't disagree with that. Piracy is a lawless act that brings with it some pros to the industry at large (along with many cons, obviously). You could also argue that services like Steam have become what they are because of piracy. When you're competing with free, suddenly ease of access and additional customer benefits become good selling points.

Also, note that most DRM in games is not there to prevent piracy, but to prevent sharing. At least, that's all it accomplishes. If piracy was less prominent, DRM would not vanish.

 

[KevinCow]

If I own golden eye IP and I didn't want it copied or preserved. Then yes. It is not up to you what I should do with my property.

Well, I think that's bullshit. Once you release something to the public, you can't just say, "No, I don't want you to have access to that anymore." It doesn't work like that. Copyright law is there to make sure the original creators get their proper payment. If they're just sitting on something and have stopped trying to profit off of it, then I don't see why they should be able to fight for its copyright. That's the point of public domain laws.

Nevermind that you completely missed the point of why I used Goldeneye as an example. It doesn't have just one owner who's refusing to rerelease it, it has several owners of different parts of it who are unlikely to ever work together due to being direct competitors. You think it's totally fine for a game that was reasonably significant to the development of the FPS as we know it today to just disappear forever due to some legal bullshit?

 

[aeolist]

By the merit of the purpose copyright laws were actually founded on no. Anything which is created should eventually go out in the public domain to be available for everyone. The reason copyright even exists is to grant the people that create these IPs a temporary monopoly over their creations to allow them to be able to make money on these IPs as an incentive to stimulate cultural growth. It is for the better of society that these works are preserved for future generations to study and enjoy. I personally would hate a world where upcoming game developers and gamers alike were not able to experience goldeneye. Now the cultural impact each game may have is up for debate but the point still stands.

It really saddens me that corporations have been so successful at spreading the idea that copyright is some sort of inherent, inviolable, and eternal monopoly. People need to remember the original reason the Copyright Clause was added to the Constitution.

 

[charlequin]

What we need is to go back to the original idea of copyright - protection for a limited period, renewable another period, then that's it.

IP laws are designed to balance the good between the creator and society as a whole. But they've been tipped mostly in the favor of the owner, which these days is rarely the creator.

Well put.

Unlike physical property, which is held under US law and that of many other places to be a natural right, copyright has no inherent basis. Instead, it is an invented right, granted through conscious choice by the apparatus of the state, to serve a specific goal. And that goal is not to "protect creators of content." Rather, it is to maximize the amount of content created and available to the public. Copyright's protection of creators is part of a bargain: we use the force of the state to make sure your competitors don't rip off your work, and in exchange you create a constant flow of new works that can enter the public domain with relative swiftness (and we will grant a wide range of acceptable use exceptions to individual citizens.)

This arrangement has been perverted with recent international copyright law into one that effectively eliminates the public domain and drastically curtailed fair use, and one of the consequences is exactly this problem of archival: valuable, relevant copyrighted works are being lost because the companies that hold their rights don't maintain them in a responsible way and consumers are unable to do so.

Video games really are a great example: people who have dumped old cartridges have ensured that there's millions of duplicated copies of the software on every old NES/SNES/etc. cartridge floating around the internet and that it's therefore quite unlikely that any of that software will be lost. Conversely, platforms that haven't received the same level of attention are in very real danger of being lost to history.

In general, copyright terms were already absurd as soon as Disney got their hands on the levers, and they're far more so now in an era where "life + 70 years" will encompass such unimaginable technological and cultural change. Moreso than ever, copyright durations should be drastically shortened now so that content can become public domain while it's still relevant and it's still being preserved.

 

[Des0lar]

In general, copyright terms were already absurd as soon as Disney got their hands on the levers, and they're far more so now in an era where "life + 70 years" will encompass such unimaginable technological and cultural change. Moreso than ever, copyright durations should be drastically shortened now so that content can become public domain while it's still relevant and it's still being preserved.

Yes that is something that is really important to know. Such immense long periods of copyrights on games serve no one in the end.

 

[MC Safety]

Yeah but this thrad is exactly about this kind of stuff. Programs that do not get published in certain countries at all, programs where the rights are lost in limbo.... The only ones that make it possible to still have access to those are pirates.

I don't have unlimited access to lots of properties across the world, nor do I think I have an inalienable right to them just because they weren't published in the United States.

Again, I don't know about abandonware because oftentimes what you take as abandonware really isn't. And, really, tying piracy to some noble cause like historical archiving is just another attempt to justify the behavior.

 

[Theonik]

Well put.

Unlike physical property, which is held under US law and that of many other places to be a natural right, copyright has no inherent basis. Instead, it is an invented right, granted through conscious choice by the apparatus of the state, to serve a specific goal. And that goal is not to "protect creators of content." Rather, it is to maximize the amount of content created and available to the public. Copyright's protection of creators is part of a bargain: we use the force of the state to make sure your competitors don't rip off your work, and in exchange you create a constant flow of new works that can enter the public domain with relative swiftness (and we will grant a wide range of acceptable use exceptions to individual citizens.)

This arrangement has been perverted with recent international copyright law into one that effectively eliminates the public domain and drastically curtailed fair use, and one of the consequences is exactly this problem of archival: valuable, relevant copyrighted works are being lost because the companies that hold their rights don't maintain them in a responsible way and consumers are unable to do so.

Video games really are a great example: people who have dumped old cartridges have ensured that there's millions of duplicated copies of the software on every old NES/SNES/etc. cartridge floating around the internet and that it's therefore quite unlikely that any of that software will be lost. Conversely, platforms that haven't received the same level of attention are in very real danger of being lost to history.

In general, copyright terms were already absurd as soon as Disney got their hands on the levers, and they're far more so now in an era where "life + 70 years" will encompass such unimaginable technological and cultural change. Moreso than ever, copyright durations should be drastically shortened now so that content can become public domain while it's still relevant and it's still being preserved.

Nail meet head imo.

 

[Branduil]

Well put.

Unlike physical property, which is held under US law and that of many other places to be a natural right, copyright has no inherent basis. Instead, it is an invented right, granted through conscious choice by the apparatus of the state, to serve a specific goal. And that goal is not to "protect creators of content." Rather, it is to maximize the amount of content created and available to the public. Copyright's protection of creators is part of a bargain: we use the force of the state to make sure your competitors don't rip off your work, and in exchange you create a constant flow of new works that can enter the public domain with relative swiftness (and we will grant a wide range of acceptable use exceptions to individual citizens.)

This arrangement has been perverted with recent international copyright law into one that effectively eliminates the public domain and drastically curtailed fair use, and one of the consequences is exactly this problem of archival: valuable, relevant copyrighted works are being lost because the companies that hold their rights don't maintain them in a responsible way and consumers are unable to do so.

Video games really are a great example: people who have dumped old cartridges have ensured that there's millions of duplicated copies of the software on every old NES/SNES/etc. cartridge floating around the internet and that it's therefore quite unlikely that any of that software will be lost. Conversely, platforms that haven't received the same level of attention are in very real danger of being lost to history.

In general, copyright terms were already absurd as soon as Disney got their hands on the levers, and they're far more so now in an era where "life + 70 years" will encompass such unimaginable technological and cultural change. Moreso than ever, copyright durations should be drastically shortened now so that content can become public domain while it's still relevant and it's still being preserved.

I agree with everything in this post.

 

[Des0lar]

I don't have unlimited access to lots of properties across the world, nor do I think I have an inalienable right to them just because they weren't published in the United States.

Again, I don't know about abandonware because oftentimes what you take as abandonware really isn't. And, really, tying piracy to some noble cause like historical archiving is just another attempt to justify the behavior.

Sorry, but tell me how someone other than the ROM modders would preserve something like a cartridge based game of which the source code was lost.

Also why should it be possible for publishers to release videos to the Internet (e.g.) Youtube and then say that I am not allowed to view this because I live in another country. I am sorry but no explanation can justify that imo. Why do you put it there in the first place if you don't want people to see it. They are hurting their own business by not adapting to the internet. Why can't I legally purchase a series from the publisher? Why can't I watch a DVD that I bought in the US on my European DVD player? Why have lost far too many consumer rights in that regard all because of copyright laws. I don't like this one bit. And I don't like that pirates more often than not get the better product for free than what I have bought with my money.

 

[Dreamwriter]

The point is that by the current letter of the law, nothing outside of original media is to be archived. And that's just not going to work out in the end. Software preservation is pointless without the appropriate means to run it. If it's even usable.

You're wrong, as I already said, the DMCA clearly states that digital copies are legal for non-profit archives and libraries. If you started a non-profit videogame museum or research archive or some such, as long as you followed the rules you could legally keep a collection of digital copies of any games you wanted. No original media needed.

Sorry, but tell me how someone other than the ROM modders would preserve something like a cartridge based game of which the source code was lost.

What does source code have to do with anything? Do you think Nintendo needs source code for their Virtual Console games? No, they just throw the ROM up and call it a day, which is why so few games get changes, and when a game does get a change, it's very small (they are "hacking" the ROM). And XBLA versions of classics are recreated from scratch, no source code used at all (which is why they are often not 100% accurate, like Frogger having different music).

 

[The Hermit]

Thanks to the magic of internet I´ve played Super Metroid and Chrono Trigger , and my mom watched an old ballet movie she watched as a kid.

Btw, do you think any kind of legal digital distribution ( VC/Wiiware, Xbla, PSN) would exist if there wasn't emulation before it?

 

[Postman]

You guys are forgetting or ignoring the recent trend of reselling old games digitally.

So is ok to pirate super mario 3 when nintendo is still selling it?

Or even better how 5-6 years ago. When they were not selling it. Just because you thought its old enough that it was ok to pirate? Even though time proved other wise.

 

[aeolist]

You're wrong, as I already said, the DMCA clearly states that digital copies are legal for non-profit archives and libraries. If you started a non-profit videogame museum or research archive or some such, as long as you followed the rules you could legally keep a collection of digital copies of any games you wanted. No original media needed.

No university or library is going to have the expertise, time, or budget to circumvent the DRM on the original media or code a near-perfect emulator for old hardware.

Pirates do all of this for free in their own time, and this facilitates archiving and preservation. They don't do it for those reasons but it's a beneficial side-effect of piracy. That's the whole point of the OP.

 

[Postman]

No university or library is going to have the expertise, time, or budget to circumvent the DRM on the original media or code a near-perfect emulator for old hardware.

Pirates do all of this for free in their own time, and this facilitates archiving and preservation. They don't do it for those reasons but it's a beneficial side-effect of piracy. That's the whole point of the OP.

There are no gamers that work in libraries or at a university?

 

[Des0lar]

You guys are forgetting or ignoring the recent trend of reselling old games digitally.

So is ok to pirate super mario 3 when nintendo is still selling it?

Or even better how 5-6 years ago. When they were not selling it. Just because you thought its old enough that it was ok to pirate? Even though time proved other wise.

You keep ignoring the main point of this thread because your eyes are so fixed on the word piracy.

When the IP is in limbo, when a publisher leaves the business, what to do with the stuff? If it wasn't for uploaders people would never be able to play it.
Super Mario Bros. 3 is still owned by Nintendo and Nintendo has a service called virtual console so nobody here is arguing that you should pirate SMB3.
But what about GoldenEye, what about the countless games that are forgotten right in this moment? What about all the cartridge games that will be forgotten and unusable. There needs to be at least someone that uploads this stuff so that it doesn't get lost.

There are no gamers that work in libraries or at a university?

Show me a library that employs people to circumvent DRM in games to make them archivable. Or people that make ROMs of old cartridge games. Please do it.