I expected this to be some stupid internet rant that barely made sense but... well that's exactly what I got.
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Rab Florence Piece on Industry Vets Killing Kickstarter
- Thread starter Gowans
- Start date
I expected this to be some stupid internet rant that barely made sense but... well that's exactly what I got.
SpaceDrake
Member
Rab Florence rather fundamentally misunderstands the current dynamic of games publishing.
If these men could actually secure funding for these projects through "traditional" means, they would have done so long ago.
I also fail to see how this will kill Kickstarter, unless things like DFA and Eternity completely fail to deliver. Hell, if they DO deliver, if anything KS will be strengthened.
This is especially sad because Florence had a pretty good point with the journalism article.
If these men could actually secure funding for these projects through "traditional" means, they would have done so long ago.
I also fail to see how this will kill Kickstarter, unless things like DFA and Eternity completely fail to deliver. Hell, if they DO deliver, if anything KS will be strengthened.
This is especially sad because Florence had a pretty good point with the journalism article.
I'm as big a Jeff Minter fan as there is, but not really feeling this. Didn't the Peter thing bomb? Most of these kickstarter seem to be from big names from the past who got discarded cause their genre's "died". As far as I'm concerned, Kickstarter feels pretty democratic to me. If people want to put their money where their mouth is and revive something, that's a good thing. And if you can't get support, if people don't want something revived, it's probably a good idea not to waste money making it.
Google - Image Search - Jeff Minter
I think the answer will quickly become apparent.
May be P. M can't find funding through traditional avenues because publishers are like the rest of us wary he over promises and under delivers? Perhaps that's why he's on KS. Still, if he's so passionate about his project, why doesn't he fund it from his own money? Where is his risk in this?
Of course the only reason they even involved Obsidian in that is because publishers know that people aren't going to give to someone unless they have some indie cred. So maybe backers aren't as dumb and easily exploited as they think.
Someone has to take a risk for any game to get made. But many people will knowingly take a $20 risk, before one will gamble a half million of their own dollars.
Think of that game you've wanted more than anything for so long that just won't happen because of circumstance (let's call it Shenmue III, but fill in your own game). If you could pay $50 for a 50/50 chance of getting that game, but that chance was the only way you'd ever get it... wouldn't you take that gamble? For THAT game?
Everyone has those sentimental projects that are just worth that (relatively small) financial gamble to them, and I think that's what Kickstarter is. It's not people getting taken advantage of, it's splitting that risk up into very small pieces and letting the people who really care pick it up.
CecilRousso
Member
If Peter Molyneux set out to do games on the level of Jeff Minters games, I would also question him if he asked for this kind of money on kickstarter, but we can pretty sure that he´s aiming higher. And if your an entrepreneur, you will always try to find the required funding for your idea instead of compromising the idea until you absolutely have to.
There are lot a of argument already in thread for both sides, those who think that he can and should, and those who feel that´s asking to much of him. A good start is to read those posts here.
There are lot a of argument already in thread for both sides, those who think that he can and should, and those who feel that´s asking to much of him. A good start is to read those posts here.
I think the Kickstarter route is a much more direct relationship between the customer and the creator. You could have other ways of funding your project through publishers or other avenues but now you are giving away a huge chunk of your profits (if any) to this other entity. Kickstarter is a more efficient relationship between creators and consumers.
However, Molyneux can get lost. All he produces now are promises that are later broken.
However, Molyneux can get lost. All he produces now are promises that are later broken.
Haunted
Member
Haunted
Member
The only protection is the diligence of the backers before they pledge to a project. Do your research. If you don't think the people doing the project are professional or trustworthy, don't back them.
A couple scam projects (concept art stolen from deviantart posed as their own work; citing a company and developers that flat out didn't exist; overpromising without a clear plan or strategy to actually develop anything) have been exposed by the community already and subsequently had to shut down.
But no, Kickstarter itself has basically no legal safeguards for abusing the system in that way.
Hmm... just starting out indie developer here.
It would be more accurate if the line read "Rab Florence will destroy kickstarter.*" But apparently referring to yourself in the third person these days makes you seem "crazy" or something... Anyway, unresearched, vague outrage like this will easily be grasped as ammunition by the people who have had some kind hereditary allergic reaction to kickstarter from the very beginning (still don't get people like that -- what's up with you guys?)
A simple grasp of statistics and a visit to kickstarter's own blog will reveal the huge positive effect Double Fine had on ALL kickstarters getting funded, including indie ones. Big names being on kickstarter doesn't "take away from those who need it" any more than famous game developers making games hurts new indie developers because people don't have time to play every game that comes out. Which, I hope we can all agree, would be an absurd complaint, and a complete distortion of the truth.
Hmm, maybe outrage-fueled journalism isn't always the best way of sorting things out after all? Who would have thought...
* Yes, this too is hyperbole.
It would be more accurate if the line read "Rab Florence will destroy kickstarter.*" But apparently referring to yourself in the third person these days makes you seem "crazy" or something... Anyway, unresearched, vague outrage like this will easily be grasped as ammunition by the people who have had some kind hereditary allergic reaction to kickstarter from the very beginning (still don't get people like that -- what's up with you guys?)
A simple grasp of statistics and a visit to kickstarter's own blog will reveal the huge positive effect Double Fine had on ALL kickstarters getting funded, including indie ones. Big names being on kickstarter doesn't "take away from those who need it" any more than famous game developers making games hurts new indie developers because people don't have time to play every game that comes out. Which, I hope we can all agree, would be an absurd complaint, and a complete distortion of the truth.
Hmm, maybe outrage-fueled journalism isn't always the best way of sorting things out after all? Who would have thought...
* Yes, this too is hyperbole.
But he wasn't having a go at all seasoned developers, was he? Just ones who had the appearance of just using it to get extra funding and take the risk out of developing, not ones who genuinely knew that they had a product that publishers wouldn't touch.
The problem with the Molyneux thing is that it seems far more feasible that it'd be a game a publisher would be happy to sell (look at From Dust, as it was cited earlier), especially cashing in on such a classic IP. The difference with Double Fine (that they could in no way have known about) was just how many people wanted a solid adventure game. The publishers certainly didn't know, which was why it appeared on Kickstarter in the first place.
The problem with the Molyneux thing is that it seems far more feasible that it'd be a game a publisher would be happy to sell (look at From Dust, as it was cited earlier), especially cashing in on such a classic IP. The difference with Double Fine (that they could in no way have known about) was just how many people wanted a solid adventure game. The publishers certainly didn't know, which was why it appeared on Kickstarter in the first place.
He was quite clearly having a go at all established developers.
Does it matter? There's nothing in Kickstarter's mission statement that says it should only be used as a last resort. There is no hierarchy of funding that puts publishers above or below crowd funding, they're all just ways to bring money and projects together.
Kickstarter is a very poor choice for localization. The cost is mainly in rights negotiation, so even barring the social faux pas of telling people "we believe your game will bomb, and we'll only get behind it if we can make someone else fund it", when you come to the table with your kickstartered $100k, that just sets a hard bottom limit for how much you'll pay.
Now, if the rightsholders kickstarter their own version, then it has potential. But then it plays into exactly what Rab's pointing out here.
I'd argue that crowdfunding is *all about* taking the risk out of developing, no matter what the project is; the difference is the *scale* of risk - relative to the person behind the idea being kickstarted. I think it's a dangerous game to start talking about whether one level of risk is 'acceptable' and another is 'not', and barring the latter from Kickstarter - because different people are going to have different opinions on that. Better to allow people to form their own opinions and fund accordingly.
Maybe I've not played enough of it, but what I have played of From Dust didn't actually *feel* all that much like Populous. Sure, they're both 'God games', but Populous very much uses that in a strategic form while From Dust was a lot more puzzly and structured.
If anything, From Dust felt closer to Lemmings for me. Okay, with a *bit* more intelligence in your people!
No, and in fact the tradition of stretch goals and putting the whole amount raised into the budget is just that: tradition, started by Double Fine. If a game goes $2 million over its goal, they can just develop the game as originally planned and pocket that money. Or, like you said, part of their budget can be to pay themselves 90% of the money.
I thought so, too. It was a multiplayer mode (even a vs computer mode) away from being a real God game. But his point is still probably valid, From Dust was sold as a God game.
Remember when Peter Molyneaux paid Jeff Minter to make a game for like 3 years, which he never delivered? Because I do.
CecilRousso
Member
No, I never heard about that, but that´s sounds interesting. Jeff Minter is really out on a limb with his twitter comments if that´s true.
Obviously making it a formal part of the Kickstarter rules has some serious issues, but as it's a supremely risky vis-a-vis reward "investment" method, Kickstarter backers will learn to be very picky either through being yelled at or through the entire mess going to pot. Hence why some of us yell at them!
Capitalism is never particularly good at handling tragedies of the commons without an educated consumer class, and Kickstarter efforts trade off potential and developer goodwill, but also Kickstarter's goodwill. Burning away the second is a poor idea for the developer (though I guess it hasn't hurt Molyneux over the past 20 years), burning the third is bad for everyone involved. It's actually a far better argument for a walled garden approach than the console or Steam models at this point.
Yeah, it was called Unity, and it was being developed by Minter for Lionhead on the GameCube back in like '03 or '04.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkejaSuR7pg
AuthenticM
Member
So this guy seems to think that because the Internets had his back a month ago he can now write the most scathing articles without anyone calling him on his bullshit ? Yeah. This new article of his may be true in its content, but he needs to work on his presentation. He sounds like a fucking 12 year-old.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
With Choice A, the game will still be published by Konami. Konami will still make buckloads of money off of it. Why need the publisher then?
Wiktor
Member
Got any proof of that? Because barely anyone cared about Kickstarter before the big devs appeared on them. Without them, those indie devs wouldn't be getting anywhere near as money as they do now. It's huge devs that brings users in and then those people often support smaller project.
Also, your posts reeks of "I should be the one deciding what people spend their own money on". I know it's propably no the case, but that's the impressions you give.
Castor Krieg
Banned
No. These people could've done it multiple times in the past. Molyneux street cred is still pretty high. The fact is they are not interested in working on Indie titles if they have to take any sort of a risk. Again: example of Molyneux. Last 10 years he was making Fable, which had financial and advertisement backing from Microsoft. There was literally no risk involved.
CecilRousso
Member
Here´s a good piece about kickstarters:
http://www.merseyremakes.co.uk/gibber/2012/11/on-kickstarter/
In short: We don´t have to side with all big kickstarters, or be against them all. But we should always ask questions.
The problem though, IMHO, is too many are so sure about the answer already when they ask the questions.
http://www.merseyremakes.co.uk/gibber/2012/11/on-kickstarter/
In short: We don´t have to side with all big kickstarters, or be against them all. But we should always ask questions.
The problem though, IMHO, is too many are so sure about the answer already when they ask the questions.
Completely agree. If you cant possibly fund it anyway else then KS is an option. If you don´t have faith in your product and don´t want to take the risk just do something else.
Only two games I could ever see myself supporting through KS is Road Rash and Desert/Jungle Strike remakes. So if anyone is reading this and can make that happen I have at the very least 50 sitting here for you.
Only two games I could ever see myself supporting through KS is Road Rash and Desert/Jungle Strike remakes. So if anyone is reading this and can make that happen I have at the very least 50 sitting here for you.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
"This Fucking Amusement Arcade is a blackly comic web series about video games and video gamers and age and love and sex and death and food and ghosts.
It launches in December.
This blog is the fictional personal blog featured in the show."
It's not his personal blog. It likely reflects his opinions, but it's in the style of his personality in his "dark" comedy show. The title of the show/blog alone sets the tone.
CecilRousso
Member
We should ask why they´re not putting up the money themselves, but maybe we shouldn´t be that certain about the answers from start.
Wiktor
Member
Actually, it's been attempted and this KS failed. Probably because it was console-centric KS and they've asked for quite big sum.
I would want to see how PC-centric localization Kickstarter would fare in comparison with something like Trials in the Sky or Magna Carta.
If Project Eternity turns out like that than great but out of any of the projects I've backed that's the one, I am leary of.
I also think it's a big test for Obsidian and they need to hit it out of the park if they do or especially if they don't than that says alot about them.
i've listened to both sides and it's not something i can find a hard line on. if established publishers with means are going to piggyback on this whole "we're going to make a game that isn't shit, just like you remember" phenomenon, at least it's a redirection of talent away from the rat race. any sort of power shift from publishers to developers can only be a good thing, even if it means a shift of kickstarter's alignment from /r/gaming vanguard to chaotic neutral.
i will say that totalbiscuit is a humourless sneering cunt who can't make a salient point without shitting his pants and smearing the deposit over everyone involved: "it's a shame that in leaving eurogamer, rab florence has also left his journalistic integrity". he's like some alpha bitch in the world's most venomous knitting circle.
i will say that totalbiscuit is a humourless sneering cunt who can't make a salient point without shitting his pants and smearing the deposit over everyone involved: "it's a shame that in leaving eurogamer, rab florence has also left his journalistic integrity". he's like some alpha bitch in the world's most venomous knitting circle.
Massive Nights
Member
Can this be posted on every page in this thread?