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Are the console GPUs this cycle really underpowered?

artist

Banned
So there is a common misconception here on GAF (and probably else where too) that the previous generation of consoles were some sort of super-duper computers or power houses of some sort compared to their PC brethren, so I went together putting some simple performance numbers for the GPUs specifically.

Keep in mind that this is a basic comparison and isn’t comprehensive. Also keep in mind that due to different architectural reasons the comparison can never be 100% alike. With that out of the way, this is how the Xenos compared to a PC GPU from the same period. The graphs are normalized with Xenos as a baseline.

2aulupl.png


So really, the Xenos wasn’t some monster. Sure it had the Unified Shader Architecture and 10MB EDRAM but it was some technological leap in raw processing power. Keep in mind that for G70, I calculated the flops based on Nvidia’s documentation and not the BS figure of 400GFlops of the RSX/G71.

Now let’s take a look at the PS4 GPU. Again, the graphs are normalized with PS4 GPU as a baseline.

2burubt.png


So the overall picture isn’t much different from the previous generation. The two major areas lacking is the Texel fill and the overall Flops. Despite Flops being a more usable metric now compared to the previous cycle, the Titan isn’t really 2.5x as fast.

This comparison is purely in vacuum. Let’s look at the TDP of PC GPUs since 2005
(For the sake of simplicity, I haven’t charted every GPU. This is just to illustrate that power consumption of PC GPUs has grown significantly over the years)

2bdzum6.png


In simple words, it’s a 2.5x increase since 2005. This is not considering anamolies such as the GT200 and some other GPUs which were closer to the 300W mark. Even though there aren’t accurate TDP numbers for Xenos/RSX out there, for the sake of discussion let’s consider them to be 75W. A similar increase would mean a 190W console GPU!

But we know that things like that (an open and expanding standard) for PCs don’t work in the console segment. So the consoles are limited by their TDP budgets severely. So let’s break down the same comparison but with per watt metric.

3k8umr.png


4g5usf.png


Tables turned on the PC GPUs? Not really, this view is only if the PC GPUs had similar TDP constraints but it still gives you an idea of how Microsoft/Sony are maximizing the raw power given their TDP budgets. It also highlights how inefficient Xenos was (TDP perspective), mainly because at that time there was more room in the TDP budget. Just look at which two GPUs are the top performers in the performance/watt category;http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_Titan/28.html

I’d also like to ask people that scoff at the 18CU GPU in the PS4, what GPU realistically do you think Microsoft/Sony should have gone with instead?
TITAN

Feel free to criticize and add your own comparisons.
 

StevieP

Banned
The Pitcairn-like GPU in the PS4 is just about the best you can ask for within a console TDP range considering the TDP of video cards today. The issue isn't with the GPU being weaker than the mid-high/higher-end PC segment. It's the expectations that many people on GAF had (and frankly, some continue to have) that consoles could defy the laws of physics and produce results superior to parts that greatly supersede it. Or nowadays it's the ram will make it more powerful than a GPU that has twice the processing power or something.
 

Sorral

Member
A bit of an applorange here. But still probably one of the best comparisons I have seen around.

I am surprised that the PS4's GPU is that close to Tahiti's and Kepler's pixel fill rate. Texture's fill though... god
 
Only the gpu in ps4 (well the 2tf higher clocked equivalent in laptops...) was measured at 65W power consumption....

That leaves a lot of wiggle room (understatement of the year here or what?) between that and a 300W gpu eh...
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
which g70? bearing in mind that the 7800gtx was the absolute top end card upon the 360s release.
 

Eideka

Banned
I wonder how well the PS4 GPU will fare compared to the 8000 and the GTX770/780.

That's weird, I genuinely expected the PS4 to rival high-end PCs back in 2010....That's nowhere near the case.
 
Doesn't this chart disprove the title? 360 had Unified shader architecture 1 YEAR before PC, and according to your chart the flops are basically the same. Whereas now PS4 is 40% the flops and no before their time changes except 4Gb GDDR5 chips.
 

injurai

Banned
Does it matter when you got all dat RAM?

Well they will probably learn to fill that RAM pretty fast.

Truth of the matter that many people are ignoring. The hardware is specced as such to avoid complete financial turmoil from offsetting console costs.

This gen needs to be about healing the industry, or at the very least stop scraping the scabs that this current gen has created.
 

TheExodu5

Banned
In terms of sheer absolute performance relative to high end PCs? This generation of consoles is a far cry from the previous generation. You're not even comparing to the top end here. Comparisons to Titan would be even more absurd. Of course, PCs don't really have much of an upper TDP limit, so the gap is a given.
 

Eideka

Banned
In terms of sheer absolute performance relative to high end PCs? This generation of consoles is a far cry from the previous generation.

It's funny how console fanboys are trying to spin this as a positive thing and you are considered a "PC elitist" for pointing that out.

Fun times ahead. :)
 

artist

Banned
Majanew, the graphs are normalized (against Xenos and PS4).

The Pitcairn-like GPU in the PS4 is just about the best you can ask for within a console TDP range considering the TDP of video cards today. The issue isn't with the GPU being weaker than the mid-high/higher-end PC segment. It's the expectations that many people on GAF had (and frankly, some continue to have) that consoles could defy the laws of physics and produce results superior to parts that greatly supersede it. Or nowadays it's the ram will make it more powerful than a GPU that has twice the processing power or something.
Yup.

Does it matter when you got all dat RAM?
It does.

A bit of an applorange here. But still probably one of the best comparisons I have seen around.

I am surprised that the PS4's GPU is that close to Tahiti's and Kepler's pixel fill rate. Texture's fill though... god
Yeah, the comparison is always applorange but is inevitable.

Only the gpu in ps4 (well the 2tf higher clocked equivalent in laptops...) was measured at 65W power consumption....

That leaves a lot of wiggle room (understatement of the year here or what?) between that and a 300W gpu eh...
That's the mobile variant. I havent used mobile GPUs because it added complexity, tried to keep it as simple as possible.

which g70? bearing in mind that the 7800gtx was the absolute top end card upon the 360s release.
7800GTX 512.

Doesn't this chart disprove the title? 360 had Unified shader architecture 1 YEAR before PC, and according to your chart the flops are basically the same. Whereas now PS4 is 40% the flops and no before their time changes except 4Gb GDDR5 chips.
The PS4 & Durango GPU are probably based on newer architectures as well. And Flops isnt the only metric to gauge raw power, especially last cycle there was a huge discrepancy between flops and actual raw powers of the GPUs.

It's funny how console fanboys are trying to spin this as a positive thing and you are considered a "PC elitist" for pointing that out.

Fun times ahead. :)
I posed a question in the end for people like you. Answer it like an adult rather than throwing the fanboy term around.

And I'm a PC Gamer.

In terms of sheer absolute performance relative to high end PCs? This generation of consoles is a far cry from the previous generation. You're not even comparing to the top end here. Comparisons to Titan would be even more absurd. Of course, PCs don't really have much of an upper TDP limit, so the gap is a given.
Not comparing to the top end? Titan is there or did you mean Quad-SLI Titan setups?
 

TheExodu5

Banned
It's funny how console fanboys are trying to spin this as a positive thing and you are considered a "PC elitist" for pointing that out.

Fun times ahead. :)

To be fair I think the console manufacturers are being smart this generation for making affordable systems with a reasonable TDP.

I'm not throwing my arguments in favor of either model. High end PCs have their place, as do reasonably designed consoles.
 

joesiv

Member
It's an interesting take, and I'm sure you're numbers are accurate, however I keep on thinking, how dual, tri, quad SLI isn't being taken into account.

Frankly, if you're building a gaming rig, that's always an option on the PC, and so single card numbers don't exactly tell the whole story. Back in 2005 SLI was just making it's re-emergance, and with it many limitations (in hardware as well as software).
 

TheExodu5

Banned
I wonder how well the PS4 GPU will fare compared to the 8000 and the GTX770/780.

That's weird, I genuinely expected the PS4 to rival high-end PCs back in 2010....That's nowhere near the case.

I never expected it to be the case again. Microsoft paid the price last generation by designing hardware that was too difficult to cool. Sony designed hardware that could not be sold for profit. Systems with lower power requirements were to be expected this generation.

During the past 4 or 5 years, PCs have been pushing even more TDP. It's not unreasonable to build a single GPU PC that uses upwards of 500W under load. Consoles simply cannot compete with that.
 

Eideka

Banned
I posed a question in the end for people like you. Answer it like an adult rather than throwing the fanboy term around.

And I'm a PC Gamer.
My point still stands. People like you love to twist facts so they suit their agenda, but tangible facts say otherwise and the meltdowns are entertaining. I'm more upset by this situation than anything else, I really wanted next-gen consoles to top high end PCs.

That said it does not change the fact that this hardware will produce better results than what is found in the PC space.
This is what excites me the most. :)

As I said I'm eager to see where the GTX770/780 and the new 89XX fit in all of this, because that's going to be a major talking point for PC folks given how demanding next-gen multiplats are likely to be.
 

TheExodu5

Banned
It's an interesting take, and I'm sure you're numbers are accurate, however I keep on thinking, how dual, tri, quad SLI isn't being taken into account.

Frankly, if you're building a gaming rig, that's always an option on the PC, and so single card numbers don't exactly tell the whole story. Back in 2005 SLI was just making it's re-emergance, and with it many limitations (in hardware as well as software).

There isn't much of a limit in terms of what we might take into account on the PC side of things. If we were to compare the PS4 against a liquid nitrogen cooled quad-SLI GTX Titan system, the gap would be enormous. But that's the thing...PCs can push things far beyond what consoles ever could because they have such high TDP limits by comparison.

My point still stands. People like you love to twist facts so they suit their agenda, but tangible facts say otherwise and the meltdowns are entertaining. I'm more upset by this situation than anything else, I really wanted next-gen consoles to top high end PCs.

That said it does not change the fact that this hardware will produce better results than what is found in the PC space.
This is what excites me the most. :)

Considering the posts you made over the PS4 reveal week, I'm surprised you're accusing anyone of having an agenda.
 

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
What does "Bandwidth" and "VRAM" mean when you are talking about architectures and not specific hardware?

Some of these architectures support different configurations of memory, including speed and amount.
 

mr2xxx

Banned
The Pitcairn-like GPU in the PS4 is just about the best you can ask for within a console TDP range considering the TDP of video cards today. The issue isn't with the GPU being weaker than the mid-high/higher-end PC segment. It's the expectations that many people on GAF had (and frankly, some continue to have) that consoles could defy the laws of physics and produce results superior to parts that greatly supersede it. Or nowadays it's the ram will make it more powerful than a GPU that has twice the processing power or something.

The issue is that you can't really compare the the PS4 GPU to anything in the PC market. TFlops wise it would be equal to a 7850 but there is more to it than just that. An advanced version of GCN, unified memory, no driver issues, coding to the metal, among a few things. So would it be comparable to a 7870 or 7950? It definitely is debatable and not an easy apples to apples comparison.
 

Eideka

Banned
Considering the posts you made over the PS4 reveal week, I'm surprised you're accusing anyone of having an agenda.

I don't have any, I'm a console and PC gamer. I like consoles, they introduced me to gaming after all.
I don't have a horse in the race, I'm here for the fun. :D I'm already sure I will buy a PS4/720 down the line when enough exclusives have released to make the purchase worth my while.

That, and throwing the fanboy term around a lot.
I don't feel uncomfortable with the idea of calling people fanboy if their ultimate goal is just to berate a platform, which is not my case of course. I'm too reasonable for that.
 

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Considering the posts you made over the PS4 reveal week, I'm surprised you're accusing anyone of having an agenda.

That, and throwing the fanboy term around a lot.

You know what they say about tall poppys. :p
 

Biggzy

Member
PS4 was running UE4, Agnis Philosophy, and Panta Rhei (Deep Down)... doesn't look underpowered.

It's only under powered if you compare it to the high-end graphics cards we have at the moment. But, as has been noted, PC's operate on a whole different TDP limit to consoles and there is only so much Sony can do with the PS4.
 
The issue is that you can't really compare the the PS4 GPU to anything in the PC market. TFlops wise it would be equal to a 7850 but there is more to it than just that. An advanced version of GCN, unified memory, no driver issues, coding to the metal, among a few things. So would it be comparable to a 7870 or 7950? It definitely is debatable and not an easy comparison apples to apples comparison.

I think the comparison here is between what was available last gen and what is available this gen. The difference between console and PC GPUs last gen and the difference now and whether the difference is wider out of the gate this generation. The fixed hardware advantages existed last gen for consoles, the question here, I think, is the hardware situation significantly different this time around?
 

StevieP

Banned
The issue is that you can't really compare the the PS4 GPU to anything in the PC market. TFlops wise it would be equal to a 7850 but there is more to it than just that. An advanced version of GCN, unified memory, no driver issues, coding to the metal, among a few things. So would it be comparable to a 7870 or 7950? It definitely is debatable and not an easy comparison apples to apples comparison.

It's more like Granny Smith to a McIntosh. Sure it's not exactly the same, but they are both still apples.
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
I don't have any, I'm a console and PC gamer. I like consoles, they introduced me to gaming after all.
Of course you can have an agenda, despite owning consoles.
Vice versa is also possible, as you accuse the OP of having so why couldn't you have one?

Are we getting a scoop here and you're the new infallible pope?
 
PS4 was running UE4, Agnis Philosophy, and Panta Rhei (Deep Down)... doesn't look underpowered.
Have you seen the UE4 comparison? It doesn't exactly look like the demo they showed last year. It's obviously early and they were working with "target hardware", but what Epic showed running on PS4 was kinda... ugly.

Also, we're only discussing the power of the PS4's GPU relative to current high-end PC hardware. Discussing the graphical improvements would be a completely different thing as this console generation was a lot longer than the previous few. If we compare the 7850-esque graphics card powering the PS4 to cards from 2 or 3 years ago the story would be different.
 

dr_rus

Member
So the overall picture isn’t much different from the previous generation. The two major areas lacking is the Texel fill and the overall Flops. Despite Flops being a more usable metric now compared to the previous cycle, the Titan isn’t really 2.5x as fast.
Still the Flops metric clearly shows that while in this generation consoles got GPUs that was on the same level or even faster in Flops than the best PC GPUs of the same time, in the next generation this isn't so - PS4 got the GPU which has two times less Flops than even Tahiti.

You may do whatever perf/watt comparisons you want but 680/7970 cost exactly the same now as X1800/7800GTX did back then (actually, their prices was even higher than 7970 and 680 cost now) - and that's the only metric that matters when you compare two products in retail. Current PC GPUs draw much more power than R520/G70 did, sure, but who cares? It's the result per dollar - the Flops, the fps, resolutions, shader complexity - that matter.

As for the Titan not being 2.5x as fast as Pitcairn (which is actually faster than PS4 GPU) have a look at this for example:

53362.png


I'm not saying that this is an indication of how they compare going just from their Flops number, but this proves that Titan can indeed be 2.5x faster than Pitcairn/7870. And that's something that simply wasn't the case between G70 and RSX or R520 and Xenos.
 

TheExodu5

Banned
I don't have any, I'm a console and PC gamer. I like consoles, they introduced me to gaming after all.
I don't have a horse in the race, I'm here for the fun. :D I'm already sure I will buy a PS4/720 down the line when enough exclusives have released to make the purchase worth my while.

I believe you, but you give off a very different impression. You need to step away from the hyperbolic posts you keep making...they give off the impression that you harbor an agenda even if that may not be the case. Enough "Crysis 3 looks like a GameBoy game compared to Killzone" and enough with the fanboy accusations. People will take you more seriously if you make reasonable posts, minus the hyperbole and antagonism.

Fanboy is not a term that should be thrown around on GAF. Respond to specific arguments, and stop it with the fanboy strawman.
 

Eideka

Banned
Of course you can have an agenda, despite owning consoles.
Vice versa is also possible, as you accuse the OP of having so why couldn't you have one?
Why would I have one ? It's counterproductive when you think about it. The only console I can't see myself getting is a Wii U.

believe you, but you give off a very different impression. You need to step away from the hyperbolic posts you keep making...they give off the impression that you harbor an agenda even if that may not be the case. Enough "Crysis 3 looks like a GameBoy game compared to Killzone" and enough with the fanboy accusations. People will take you more seriously if you make reasonable posts, minus the hyperbole and antagonism.
Oh yes, that was completely hyperbolic I allow. I was really impressed with KZ Shadow Fall and I still think Crysis 3 is not on par, even at very high settings.
That lends credence to the API being an obstacle on PC, to some degree. I knew that already but it's still interesting to see what kind of results you can come up with when you are allowed access to the hardware itself.
 

nasos_333

Member
PS4 was running UE4, Agnis Philosophy, and Panta Rhei (Deep Down)... doesn't look underpowered.

Indeed and that is only pre-release graphics and on lower than PS4 target specs

The actual optimization comes after 2-3 years working on the hardware

Watching these games makes all that power talk seem so boring and meaningless
 

TheExodu5

Banned
Oh yes, that was completely hyperbolic I allow. I was really impressed with KZ Shadow Fall and I still think Crysis 3 is not on par, even at very high settings.
That lends credence to the API being a obstacle on PC, to some degree. I knew that already but it's still interesting to see what kind of results you can come up with when you are allowed access to the hardware itself.

Definitely. What PCs lack in efficiency, they make up in sheer brute strength. Despite the relatively low end hardware, I do think we will see some pretty amazing visuals to come out of the PS4/Durango (with the usual console IQ pitfalls).
 

Portugeezer

Member
One more thing.

Wasn't the PS3 meant to be considerably more powerful (in FLOPS) compared to the 360? Ultimately we never saw a big difference between them.

Maybe someone could confirm, I googled a bit and seems PS3 was double the flops of the 360?
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
The actual optimization comes after 2-3 years working on the hardware
While this is true, if history is any indication desktop hardware is also not going to be standing still.

There will be an arms race between squeezing the very last out of the devices on the console side and the natural progression of hardware.

PS4 GPU is 1.84 TFs, not 1 TF.
The OP is well aware of this and doesn't make a statement to the contrary.
 

Eideka

Banned
Definitely. What PCs lack in efficiency, they make up in sheer brute strength. Despite the relatively low end hardware, I do think we will see some pretty amazing visuals to come out of the PS4/Durango (with the usual console IQ pitfalls).

There never was any doubt, not when Uncharted 3 or Halo 4 run on those old consoles.

Sadly, the PC does not have this kind of budget. Star Citizen is on the horizon though but it's clear that it's not a market big enough to warrant such costs.

With regard to the OP, I'm sorry if you felt accused of anything, that was not my intention at all.
 

onQ123

Member
I just want to see what happens when someone use over 1TFLOPS for Software Based Rendering in a game.

even if it's just a Pool Game.
 

RetroStu

Banned
The next gen consoles are the usual 8-10x power jump over last gen (even EA said they were 10x more powerful), the only reason why this time they are behind top of the line PC's is because of the 3 year longer generation we have had this time.
The consoles are the usual jump up so thats all that i care about, i don't care whether they are as good as top PC's and its academic anyway as which PC games make use of all that power anyway?, hell which PC games look better than the Killzone demo?, exactly.
 
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