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Tomb Raider writer on female & LGBT characters and ludonarrative dissonance

L

Lime

Member
In lieu of EA's Full Spectrum conference, Kill Screen did an interview with Rhianna Pratchett, writer of the new Tomb Raider. She is also known for Heavenly Sword, Overlord and Mirror's Edge. In the full interview, she talks about the inclusion of female and LGBT characters within games, and also about the challenges of writing a story that supports the gameplay (in this case, a story about the player character killing loads of human beings while trying to be empathetic). There's more at the link:http://killscreendaily.com/articles...first-and-why-she-wanted-make-lara-croft-gay/

On female and LGBT characters:

Like I said, getting more diverse protagonists is important, and just getting them in there will be the first step. But I do think it is a bit disingenuous to have a gay character and then not speak to that. It’s kind of like having a straight character who happens to like people of the same gender. Exploring something about what it means to be a gay character, bisexual character, transgender character, in games, that would create some interesting stories. I’m not sure we’re there yet. But I think getting those representations into games is the first step. Once we’re more comfortable with that, actually speaking to those issues a little more broadly will be possible.

But also getting more writers in the process, and people that aren’t afraid to write about characters who aren’t them. That’s what writers do! You’re always exploring people who aren’t you. Once you get your head around it, you can feel comfortable in that space. So I think that once more writers and narrative professionals get involved, the more comfortable they will be to write different and diverse characters.

And like I said, from a narrative standpoint we didn’t completely ignore that Lara is female. But we didn’t sort of yell it out either. It wasn’t all about that—being female. But we did bring it in, because it’s part of who she is. She is a young woman, so we wanted her to feel like a real young woman. That was one of the problems in the past with old Lara. It became all about her gender, particularly about her boobs. There is more to gender than what you have on the front of your chest. [laughs]

I’d love to see more of that. It’s a shame that developers don’t do this. Are they just really nervous about doing anything that’s not men? So I think: Ok, this is where writers can help. Because we have to! Otherwise it would be Mary Sues as far as the eye can see. But like I said, first step: getting them in. Second step: exploring that more once we’ve got them. Ideally if we get that in, we can explore it more. But it has to be right for the game and the experience.
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Yeah, we need to be braver about these things in general, really. In that same “Woman Warrior” article, the writer was talking to the art director on Gears of War, who was saying that it would be very difficult putting a female up front and center because female-lead games do not sell as well as male-lead games. But they’re not given the marketing support that male-lead games are. I certainly hope that Tomb Raider will turn the tide on that, and get people thinking about characters more.
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On supporting the large amount of killing through the game's narrative:

It is very difficult. I think it is all about the suspension of disbelief that you have when going into a game. It’s very difficult to keep that good affable character when they’re having to slaughter loads of people. But what we tried to do with Lara was at least halve the first death count. As you say, she’s uncomfortable with having to do what she needs to do. Those feelings start to bubble to the surface, and she does sort of push them away because she knows she can’t think about what she’s doing. It will incapacitate her if does.

But, you know, it does bubble up. Mathias refers to it as well at the end. So what we tried to do there is give her a knowing-ness about what she’s doing. Certainly with the first kill having a lot of impact. She went quite a long time without having a weapon. Then there was the bow, and then quite a long time without a gun. There is lots of kills after that. But you can’t play the same card over and over again. Every kill cannot be like the first kill.
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It’s about balancing the needs of gameplay with the needs of narrative. The needs of narrative don’t always trump the needs of gameplay. In fact, it’s usually the other way around. And so I’d say from a narrative perspective, we would have liked the ramp-up to be a bit slower. But, you know, there are other factors to be considered! When players get a gun, they generally want to use the gun. We were brave in going such a long time without giving players a gun in a game where you end up doing a lot of shooting. We tried to innovate a little bit, but narrative can’t always win. Ideally if you can find a sweet spot, that’s great. But sometimes combat, or gameplay or whatever, has to win out.
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S

spuit*11

Banned
They completely failed to mitigate the disconnect between the whining and yelping story-Lara and stonecold brutal serialkiller gameplay-Lara.
 
L

Lime

Member
The first part of the interview also has some interesting observations in regards to writing vs. game design:

Sometimes they say “narrative professionals,” which sounds a bit highfalutin. But actually the term “writer” doesn’t really sum up what games writers need to do, or the way they should be used when they’re being used to the best of their ability. That’s something more akin to: part cinematographer, part set dresser, part casting agent, part director, part scene-builder. It’s not just the word bits. It’s not just the writing that you need to build the world. You need to utilize everything to tell the story! The game mechanics, the animation, the art, everything feeds into the narrative.
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Of course if you’re involved in the development process, you don’t have a lot of choice but to go in and actually see what’s there to try to pull it all together and work a story around it. Whereas, what I think we need to do is get writers in earlier so they can help bring that logic in early and not just retrofit a story around what’s been developed without a story necessarily in mind. I’ve had stories like that, and it’s not ideal because you’re not making the most of the story. You never know what narrative ideas could have come up with a better level or a better area or a better premise or something like that…but the narrative team wasn’t in the room!

You get projects like that, and they can work. But, really, it is about being a world creator as well. I always talk about it like building an iceberg. You have to build the whole body of the iceberg—the iceberg being the narrative of the world. That includes everything from the backstories of the characters to the relationships web, even down to what they eat and what their pets are called. The narrative mechanics, the environmental storytelling, you’ve got to build that kind of iceberg. Especially when it comes to building characters. You’ve got to know so much about them. Even if the player only sees the tip of the iceberg, you’ve got to make sure everything else is there, because that makes whatever sticks up above the surface that much more real.
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G

Gully State

Member
spuit*11 said:
They completely failed to mitigate the disconnect between the whining and yelping story-Lara and stonecold brutal serialkiller gameplay-Lara.
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Nah...Lara has been rebooted as an adventurer suffering from bipolar disorder with no access to medication. Not only is the disconnect explained away, but now she's also the first bipolar heroine in video games. Truly groundbreaking stuff..
 
spandexmonkey

spandexmonkey

Banned
spuit*11 said:
They completely failed to mitigate the disconnect between the whining and yelping story-Lara and stonecold brutal serialkiller gameplay-Lara.
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Did you just not finish the game? By the end she was pretty hardened and fierce.

I do agrew with Rhianna that right now the real hurdle seems to be just getting more female leads in games period then focusing on quality.
 
I

Incendiary

Banned
We were brave in going such a long time without giving players a gun in a game where you end up doing a lot of shooting. We tried to innovate a little bit, but narrative can’t always win. Ideally if you can find a sweet spot, that’s great. But sometimes combat, or gameplay or whatever, has to win out.
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But this isn't really true at all. I wouldn't really consider it brave. It takes about 2 hours to get to the part where Lara kills somebody, where you first get a gun I'd say. And since the game is about 15-16 hours long, I'd say 2 hours isn't brave OR a "long time" to go without shooting. Brave, honestly, would be having half the game without shooting. Or designing an entire game where killing is minimal.

It's also a shame saying "narrative can't always win." I'd much rather have a strong narrative with less action-oriented gameplay that is in balance with the story they're trying to tell, instead of gun-shooty gameplay with narrative dissonance.
 
S

sleepykyo

Member
I just thought: “I’d love to make Lara gay!” That’s probably going to be your headline.
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Yuriryuriyuriyuri. nosebleed death.

Ideally if you can find a sweet spot, that’s great. But sometimes combat, or gameplay or whatever, has to win out.
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Guess I can settle for sometimes.
 
M

Mesoian

Member
I mean...I agree with her, but it all sort of boils down to TL:DR - We need better writers. I agree, but we've known this.
 
P

Pau

Member
If narrative can't win over gameplay, then the narrative has to be changed. You're not making a separate movies out of those cutscenes, which is what most video games feel like. The narrative should serve the gameplay, not hinder it.
 
C

calder

Member
Mesoian said:
I mean...I agree with her, but it all sort of boils down to TL:DR - We need better writers. I agree, but we've known this.
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I disagree, I think the whole thing boils down to "the gameplay requirement of any game in this genre makes truly good storytelling almost impossible". See also: Uncharted.

Great characters, solid plotting and well written banter are all fine and good, but ultimately if your lead character is going to end the game with a death toll in the hundreds (and they actually do need to), then it's going to be an awkward fit no matter what. I'm mostly ok with the disconnnect because I don't see many alternatives, I like these narrative heavy games with compelling characters but there's only so many times you can build a story around a sociopathic protagonist. GTA4 struggled with it and frankly kind of failed, and that's the one series where they should have been able to pull it off.
 
L

Lime

Member
It's kind of weird that people think Lara and Sam had a romantic relationship. It's like two women can't be good friends without people assuming they are lesbians.

Ninjimbo said:
Cop out of what?
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From the narrative's lack of commenting on or treating the matter of Lara killing an incredible amount of people.
 
N

Net_Wrecker

Member
If "narrative can't always win," stop shoving it in my face every 5 minutes. If you, as a developer, decide to make a self-serious, story heavy game, the onus is on the director/lead designer + writing team to make all the pieces fit. Tomb Raider could've easily dropped the whole "becoming a warrior" plot line, and the piles of dead bodies left in Lara's path wouldn't have clashed with the narrative. It would then be exactly what the game is; a violent action movie. On the other hand, they could've played up stealth, survival, hunting, small brutal encounters, very little but extremely dramatic human conflict, etc. if they wanted gameplay to fit the story they attempted to tell.

Yeah, making a great game narrative is hard, but if you want to go in the "cinematic game" direction, you can't separate narrative vs. gameplay so that one "wins out" over the other. They have to exist together, in sync. Either that or keep the story lean, and just make a great shooter. Be honest.
 
I

injurai

Banned
Lime said:
It's kind of weird that people think Lara and Sam had a romantic relationship. It's like two women can't be good friends without people assuming they are lesbians.
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which is interesting because now bromances are all the rage. Tables have kinda turned in the social sphere as of late.
 
S

Salaadin

Member
Lime said:
It's kind of weird that people think Lara and Sam had a romantic relationship. It's like two women can't be good friends without people assuming they are lesbians.
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Im not even sure why her sexual orientation matters.


Lime said:
From the narrative's lack of commenting on or treating the matter of Lara killing an incredible amount of people.
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While I agree that they didnt do a great job with it and that there was a pretty bad disconnect between the story and the gameplay, Im still not sure how else they could have handled it.

It was briefly discussed in the Weekend Confirmed thread that the enemies have a shoot first mentality and that she also adopts this mindset to protect herself but it was noted that not all of the enemies were the crazy cult members and that Lara didnt even attempt to reason with anybody. This could have been an interesting route to take in the story that would make Laras hatred of killing hold more weight. In that case, she would have at least tried to not kill people.

The story wasnt perfect but I did find myself giving more of a shit about Lara than I do most game characters. More of a shit than I ever did with old Lara Croft. I just really wish they perfected the other aspects of the story...like her murder frenzy.
 
M

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
Lime said:
It's kind of weird that people think Lara and Sam had a romantic relationship. It's like two women can't be good friends without people assuming they are lesbians.
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Eh, part of the game narrative is the repeated hammering of points to stress its importance, in this case, Lara's strong connection with Sam spanning back several years being one of the huge driving forces of her actions.

In that regard of motivation, there's some possible subtext, but I'd certainly agree that it's not overt at all. It doesn't just happen with women, though. A quick deviantart check with Gears of War shows some visualization of Dom paired with Marcus, even with Dom's wife being a huge plot point in 2 as well as Anya for Marcus as a support/semi-interest in 1 and 2. Not sure how it's addressed in 3 since I never got around to it.

I'm sure romantic subtext/undertones of 'bromance' games have been around, just not as realized or brought into the social sphere of gaming due to the nature of many male gamers mentally eschewing it.

On the main topic (which is a fascinating read), I do agree that the writing process has to integrate better with the concept of a 'game' from an earlier time frame. The problems arises when there's some level of disconnect in what you think should be possible to do going by the narrative of the story/universe and what the game actually allows you to do, which is something that Ken Levine touched on in his Giantbomb interview.

As soon as a player/set piece/part of the story is limited by the game's overall limitations and goes contrary to what the player perceives as the rules of the universe, the story loses focus/value when the player hits that invisible wall of narrative/action discord compared to the continuous gameplay focus.
 
G

.GqueB.

Banned
The needs of narrative don’t always trump the needs of gameplay. In fact, it’s usually the other way around. And so I’d say from a narrative perspective, we would have liked the ramp-up to be a bit slower. But, you know, there are other factors to be considered! When players get a gun, they generally want to use the gun
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I disagree with this notion. If you make other aspects of your gameplay compelling enough then not many people are going to care about the lack of shooting. I remember in Uncharted how annoyed I got toward the end when I had to face yet another hoard of enemies. Especially when it happened in places they didn't even belong in the first place.

Thankfully the shooting in Tomb Raider was fun but I would've liked better puzzles and more Tomb Raiding. I haven't played many of these games but I LOVED Underworld for that sense of exploration. With that said, I loved the new Tomb Raider but I think a balance can be struck. Just because I have a gun doesn't mean I want to kill kill kill.

Salaadin said:
While I agree that they didnt do a great job with it and that there was a pretty bad disconnect between the story and the gameplay, Im still not sure how else they could have handled it.
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They kind of did when you think about it. The only reason Lara became super violent was because of the upgrades you chose to get as the player. Not choosing them would leave you with a character that was simply defending herself. Not to mention there were sections that were doable without killing. Perhaps they could've played that up more and given the player opportunities to be non-violent.

I don't know, it's tough.
 
D

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
Lime said:
It's kind of weird that people think Lara and Sam had a romantic relationship. It's like two women can't be good friends without people assuming they are lesbians.
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It's kind of weird that people think a woman can't grow an attraction for another woman who saved her life. That they have to be good friends rather than something more.

Chie and Yukiko are good friends in Persona 4, but people who think they're lesbians are pushing for something that doesn't exist. Where as there is all kinds of reasoning for Sam and Lara, psychologically even.
 
K

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Net_Wrecker said:
If "narrative can't always win," stop shoving it in my face every 5 minutes. If you, as a developer, decide to make a self-serious, story heavy game, the onus is on the director/lead designer + writing team to make all the pieces fit. Tomb Raider could've easily dropped the whole "becoming a warrior" plot line, and the piles of dead bodies left in Lara's path wouldn't have clashed with the narrative. It would then be exactly what the game is; a violent action movie. On the other hand, they could've played up stealth, survival, hunting, small brutal encounters, very little but extremely dramatic human conflict, etc. if they wanted gameplay to fit the story they attempted to tell.

Yeah, making a great game narrative is hard, but if you want to go in the "cinematic game" direction, you can't separate narrative vs. gameplay so that one "wins out" over the other. They have to exist together, in sync. Either that or keep the story lean, and just make a great shooter. Be honest.
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This seems close to the root of the problem. The more photo-realistic, the more cinematic your game, the more lifelike and naturalistic your characters, the more conflict between gameplay and packaging arises. It's perhaps one of the consequences of abandoning abstraction in games.

At a certain point you simply cannot indulge the player's desire to, say, shoot a crapload of people with a gun, while simultaneously portraying your lifelike protagonist as anything other than a popcorn movie character.

In a more abstract game motif, you can get away with raw game mechanics not making the characters appear unnatural or insincere.
 
XOMTOR

XOMTOR

Member
Salaadin said:
While I agree that they didnt do a great job with it and that there was a pretty bad disconnect between the story and the gameplay, Im still not sure how else they could have handled it.
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They could have forgone chasing the Uncharted crowd and made the gameplay have a bigger focus on survival, stealth, silent kills etc.; perhaps simply knocking out or stunning as opposed to full out combat/killing.

What they came up with is a young girl who is forced to kill in a terrible situation, feels bad about it and then proceeds to become Rambo's daughter in no time flat.
 
S

Salaadin

Member
XOMTOR said:
They could have forgone chasing the Uncharted crowd and made the gameplay have a bigger focus on survival, stealth, silent kills etc.; perhaps simply knocking out or stunning as opposed to full out combat/killing.

What they came up with is a young girl who is forced to kill in a terrible situation, feels bad about it and then proceeds to become Rambo's daughter in no time flat.
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Stealth is a good option. I like the bits of stealth they have in this game and making every encounter like that would work in a way because once the enemy sees her and starts shooting, she DOES have to defend herself. So it would kinda make more sense than what we got.

Stunning enemies is something Im iffy on. Most games these days tackle stunning the same way they tackle killing. You knock out the enemy and they lay there, knocked out, never to get up again. Its no different from killing except that you use darts instead of bullets. If they ever take this approach, then id like to see a Metal Gear-esque approach where the enemies do wake up after time so they become a threat if you hang around an area for too long or are still there when you return later.

EDIT: I cant spell
 
A

Asriel

Member
calder said:
I disagree, I think the whole thing boils down to "the gameplay requirement of any game in this genre makes truly good storytelling almost impossible". See also: Uncharted.

Great characters, solid plotting and well written banter are all fine and good, but ultimately if your lead character is going to end the game with a death toll in the hundreds (and they actually do need to), then it's going to be an awkward fit no matter what. I'm mostly ok with the disconnnect because I don't see many alternatives, I like these narrative heavy games with compelling characters but there's only so many times you can build a story around a sociopathic protagonist. GTA4 struggled with it and frankly kind of failed, and that's the one series where they should have been able to pull it off.
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Agree 100%. This is why I never bought the criticism of Lara seeming bipolar, or undergoing a transformation too quickly.
 
R

radioheadrule83

Banned
It is very difficult. I think it is all about the suspension of disbelief that you have when going into a game. It’s very difficult to keep that good affable character when they’re having to slaughter loads of people. But what we tried to do with Lara was at least halve the first death count. As you say, she’s uncomfortable with having to do what she needs to do.
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I get what she's saying here, I'm sure it is difficult to square that box -- but I've just started the game, and I found it kind of hilarious how quickly Lara went from contemplating the horror of killing to.... bow and arrowing people in the face
 
G

.GqueB.

Banned
Salaadin said:
Stealth is a good option. I like the bits of stealth they have in this game and making ever encounter like that would work in a way because once the enemy sees her and starts shooting, she DOES have to defend herself. So it would kinda make more sense than what we got.

Stunning enemies is something Im iffy on. Most games these days tackle stunning the same way they tackle killing. You knock out the enemy and they lay there, knocked out, never to get up again. Its no different from killing except that you use darts instead of bullets. If they ever take this approach, then id like to see a Metal Gear-esque approach where the enemies do wake up after time so they become a thread if you hang around an area for too long or are still there when you return later.
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Agreed. If the stealth has no consequences then it doesn't make much sense to even take that approach.
 
B

Bulzeeb

Member
Dragonzord said:
It's kind of weird that people think a woman can't grow an attraction for another woman who saved her life. That they have to be good friends rather than something more.

Chie and Yukiko are good friends in Persona 4, but people who think they're lesbians are pushing for something that doesn't exist. Where as there is all kinds of reasoning for Sam and Lara, psychologically even.
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more like its kind of weird that people can't see 2 characters get along (any genre) without adding some sexual tension to the mix, seriously now days the concept of friendship has really changed imo
 
XOMTOR

XOMTOR

Member
Salaadin said:
Stealth is a good option. I like the bits of stealth they have in this game and making ever encounter like that would work in a way because once the enemy sees her and starts shooting, she DOES have to defend herself. So it would kinda make more sense than what we got.
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I enjoyed the stealthy bits in the game as well and agree that once you're spotted you do need to defend yourself to some degree. Of course, realistically if you're spotted by five or six armed guys, it's pretty much a death sentence for all but the most hardened combatants. So basically, the onus is to not get spotted and be punished when you do.

Stunning enemies is something Im iffy on. Most games these days tackle stunning the same way they tackle killing. You knock out the enemy and they lay there, knocked out, never to get up again. Its no different from killing except that you use darts instead of bullets. If they ever take this approach, then id like to see a Metal Gear-esque approach where the enemies do wake up after time so they become a thread if you hang around an area for too long or are still there when you return later.
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Yup, nothing wrong with that.

Of course, if it were up to me, I'd just have far fewer enemies in the game but of course that wouldn't be as fun for some.
 
F

Fine Ham Abounds

Member
But also you’ve got a situation where female characters do get scrutinized more than male characters do, and in some ways can be seen as holding a banner up for female characters. A lot gets heaped on their shoulders. Lara Croft gets a lot more scrutiny than Nathan Drake does, as a female. Nobody talks about how well Nathan Drake is representing men, or male characters in games.

--


I see the examples that you’re talking about, these sci-fi movies with strong female leads. But one of the interesting things about games, one of their real creative and artistic possibilities as I’ve always understood it, is their ability to cultivate empathy in the user. From a broader social justice perspective, do you think that just putting marginalized characters in the role of the badass, ass-kicking protagonist is the fullest response to making more diverse games? Or is it some sort of stop-gap solution?

I don’t think it’s the most fulfilling response necessarily. But I think it’s probably the first response. I mean, we’re not even getting too much of the first response! It’s the “male character with boobs” type approach.

Certainly with Lara, I wanted to make a human story. But I never wanted to forget that she was female either. And, I mean, certainly the way she reacts to things could be said to be more female as a reaction. I’m not talking about being scared, or being vulnerable. But the way she interacts with other characters, her friendship with Sam in particular…you wouldn’t see a male character holding the hands of an in-pain male character or hugging a dying male character.
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Just isolating this bit of the interview. I think I'm mostly with the interviewer on this one.

Why can't a female character be a "male character with boobs"? Why should that be questioned that way, rather than whether it is simply a good characterization that's appropriate for the narrative?

Certainly there would be the individual biological differences we all have, and I would agree that when a minority is a main character, scrutiny from the outside seems to fall upon how they represent that minority. There seems to be a perception among writers of popular media that if you decide on a female, or a black male, or an asian female, or what-not, you're lugging around this narrative baggage you have to find a place to not just store it, but unpack it and lay it out, even to the extent of showing your hand early or betraying your narrative in order to establish that you are somehow trustworthy for mass consumption.

Part of me wonders if this is why her narrative for Tomb Raider is so chocked full of stereotypes; since she had certain pressures which prevented her expounding on these characters, she just used tropes as filler.

I don't agree that "you wouldn’t see a male character holding the hands of an in-pain male character or hugging a dying male character." Why not? Ultimately, establishing why a character does what they do is the job of the author. Although not exactly the same thing, Drake for instance holds Sully's hand in UC3, and it's a fun little humorous moment. It's perfectly reasonable and completely congruous with the relationship established between the characters. This is simply good characterization. If someone thinks something like that devalues the characters by default because they are both males, doesn't that say more about them than your characters? How different would that have felt if it was a black woman and an asian woman doing that? Should it feel different, especially if their relationship is established as well as Drake and Sully's? Why?

I guess I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but I am saying I disagree with her approach that the things she's describing are fundamental differences that must be considered when creating characterizations. They exist purely because of marketing pressures and cultural expectations, and I think game narratives have a uniquely prime position from which to attack and break through these sorts of expectations.
 
Riposte

Riposte

Member
It sounds like writers are "not in the room" when the game is being made. I have to agree with that seeming like a problem, particularly in cases when you sometimes have artists who get a little crazy with wanting to draw something wild or sexy when it isn't appropriate.

Personally, I'm interested in someone making a game starring a transexual where the player doesn't know their character is trans. It would be interesting particularly in the game has role-playing a la Mass Effect. I think that manipulates the player in a good way.


They could make a game where your bullets only hit enemies in their limbs half the time (which wouldn't be lethal following adventure movie rules) and such instead of brutally killing them every time. Even if you aim for the head, they'll take a shot in the arm (maybe decrease the disconnect this through no "aim down sights" and lots of blindfire) and stumble to the ground and the player won't be given the ability to execute them. Then those same enemies can come back with patched up wounds to be more fodder.

I'm not at all averse to the slaughtering of videogame characters, but I really dislike when it feels like the enemy organization (when inappropriate) has an army of 500 completely disposable idiots. It makes you feel like you've done nothing even if you just utterly destroyed a small army in a dramatic firefight in a badass fashion. Uncharted 3 was the breaking point for me, because there really isn't a good explanation why this secret organization would 1) have this many dudes, 2) be okay with losing this many dudes.
 
M

Messofanego

Banned
"I mean, I didn’t want to just make Lara a male character with boobs. It’s always kind of a…it is a human story at heart. But there things—the language she uses, or the way that she interacts—that could be said to be more feminine. I’m very much not talking about her sense of vulnerability or being scared. That again has been rolled out as: male characters aren’t shown as being scared or vulnerable, why should female characters? Well, just because it hasn’t been done with male characters doesn’t make it wrong! It’s probably more of a problem of the way we depict male characters."

This is true, I'd like more vulnerable male characters too that I can identify with. Surprisingly, Lynch being a psychopath in the K&L series, I still sympathise with his psychological problems and the hardships he's been through. Protagonists like George Stobbart (Broken Sword) or Alan Wake are vulnerable because of their line of work and the situations they face along with the player.

Good articles, both of them. Getting writers or "narrative professionals" sooner into game development is what I've been hearing from many writer interviews and retrospectives which is why I love Spec Ops The Line where it felt the narrative played a big part into the game from in-game storytelling through adaptive dialogue and story-dependent animations to load screens and environment hints.

One detail I liked was how the taunts enemies would shout at you evolved throughout the game. At the beginning they would say, “She’s just a girl!” Then it evolved to something like, “This girl is kicking our asses!”

Barks are always hard. They’re deeply unsexy bits to write [chuckles]. But they’re essential. Showing that the guy is almost impressed by her shows the evolution in skill reflected by the enemies. John Stafford, the narrative designer, worked on a lot of that. Being on-site at Crystal meant that he could work with the level designers on the more moment-to-moment stuff, and also keep me in the loop about what needed to change. And it is about getting people like that involved and talking.
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I didn't know Tomb Raider also does the adaptive barks, might have to check out the game now.
 
M

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
Femmeworth said:
I blame the fetishization of lesbianism, homosexuality in general.
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I finally had time to sit down and really read through both articles, and in the 2nd article, Rihanna says the following.

Yeah, I mean…[pause]. Sometimes, though I can’t think of a specific example. I’ve seen a number of threads about Lara’s relationship with Sam that suspect there’s something more going on under the surface. With Faith as well. I’ve seen an entire essay about how I have a “gay agenda.” That was an interesting take on it, and not necessarily something that I’d considered.

There’s part of me that would’ve loved to make Lara gay. I’m not sure Crystal would be ready for it! But we've not spoken about it directly, either. Who knows what the future might hold? It is a bit of a minefield.*
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I just thought: “I’d love to make Lara gay!” That’s probably going to be your headline.

You know, we didn’t actually touch on Lara’s sexuality in the game. She kisses Alex on the cheek. He has a crush on Lara, but it’s actually a sort of respect crush as much as anything else! It’s a sweet crush, which makes that moment more poignant. But people have talked about Lara’s boyfriends and stuff like that, and I’m like, “No, no, I don’t want that to be part of it!” This is about her. I didn’t feel like a boyfriend or that side of things fit into it. But I do like the fact that people speculate about what Lara’s relationship to Sam might have been, or that people speculate about Faith and Celeste. It’s good that people care enough about those characters to think about those sorts of things.
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Obviously there's a difference in fetishization in a pandering/catering sense and caring about the characters enough to continue/imagine the perceived story subtext, but I don't know if I see anything wrong in the latter, especially given the limited amount of good character arcs/visibility the LGBT community has within the video game narrative pool.

From a quick google, Fear Effect 2 is the only game I could find with a bisexual/lesbian (who isn't a blank-slate/avatar) protagonist, which incidentally came under fire for its representation of the relationship in both advertising the game and within the game narrative itself.

Other than that, there have only mainly been hints/inferences in games like Fire Emblem supports or the all-inclusive/bisexual companions in DA:O and DA2.

To be fair, ME3 has Traynor and Cortez, while Juhani from KOTOR is also worth mentioning, though I believe her actual romance arc was bugged in the final product.

Fable 2/3, Dragon's Dogma, and Skyrim (probably more, those were the ones I thought of off the top of my head) also have the 'marry whoever' option, but that's less of a character arc and more of a 'what your relatively blank-slate avatar does to represent your choices' theme since the worlds themselves are generally open to any sort of preference the player decides upon.

Overall, certainly not very many non-token options to really choose from, hence the reading into subtext in games like Tomb Raider.

Unfortunately, we're definitely still a huge ways off from including any LGBT serious themes in a AAA console game by publishers due to risk of not selling due to imagined controversy, lack of interest, etc. But at least stuff like this helps to push for better visibility/representation, or at least not including a token character as comic relief or a a sole attribute of an antagonist. Rihanna puts it better than I could.

Although I never saw Faith as a gay character, I had this sort of underlying thing that Celeste, who was another female character, might possibly be that way. There wasn’t a necessity to explore it in the game. But, again, it’s building the iceberg.
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M

Messofanego

Banned
The Longest Journey back in 1999 had a lesbian couple as your landlords, and it's played with no fanfare. Gay Gamer wrote an article about them. I guess with no fanfare or controversy, most people have forgotten that game?

TLJ%20Fiona%20Mickey.jpg


The game's on GOG and Steam, check it out if you've somehow missed on the most epic adventure series ever.
 
E

Earthpainting

Member
Like I said, getting more diverse protagonists is important, and just getting them in there will be the first step. But I do think it is a bit disingenuous to have a gay character and then not speak to that. It’s kind of like having a straight character who happens to like people of the same gender. Exploring something about what it means to be a gay character, bisexual character, transgender character, in games, that would create some interesting stories. I’m not sure we’re there yet. But I think getting those representations into games is the first step. Once we’re more comfortable with that, actually speaking to those issues a little more broadly will be possible.
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Ugh none of that, please. This is exactly the sort of thing TV shows and movies try to do when they bring up LGBT characters and it usually falls flat and comes off as insultingly stereotypical. I'd rather we focus on showing as LGBT characters as regular people and pay as much or as little to their orientation or gender-identification as our other protagonists would do. It would limit the things they can mess up and it will be a smoother way to adapt for the people whose minds can't wrap around the concept yet. I don't have a whole lot of faith in video game writing in this area when I look at the calibre of these cinematic games.

On the whole, the article was an interesting read though.
 
J

Jac_Solar

Member
I also think female characters are badly written in most TV series and movies. They are usually either very annoying, one of a few ridiculous stereotypes, or relies heavily on sex appeal (Not cute, or attractive, but sex appeal. What's the point of that in a TV show or movie when porn exists? Sex scenes and the like make sense, at most, 1% of the time. It's usually completely pointless.).

Male characters also have some of those issues, but not to the degree of female characters -certainly nowhere near the amount.

I've watched a lot of TV shows and movies, and there are exceptionally few shows and movies where the female characters actually feel like real people, are interesting (Based on their characters, that is.), or funny.

"Modern Family" is a very unique show in that it has (Relatively.) incredible writing for the female characters, since none of them are annoying or feel out of place -- all of them are interesting, and all are at least somewhat funny. I think "Arrested Development" had several great female characters as well, but I can't remember the specifics.

I recently watched the TV show "Last Man Standing", and, more or less, the entire female cast of the first season are great. The teen "Mandy" character is also more interesting than any other teen female character I've seen in a TV show, even though it's a ditzy/silly character.

I really like "Modern Family" and "Last Man Standing", but they aren't groundbreaking or "incredible" shows, yet they are one of the very, very few shows where the female characters are all interesting or even funny at times.

There are some random movies or TV show where one, or a few female characters are interesting/somewhat funny, but that isn't common. Jodie Foster's character was very well written in Silence of the Lambs. Alien, Aliens and Terminator 2 (I think 1 as well. I haven't seen it in a long, long time.) had great female characters. The only romantic movie I really enjoyed was "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind".

Another thing is that, Elaine/Dreyfuss was great in Seinfeld for example, but she was written a lot like "one of the guys".
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Playing through the game now and yeah, the ramp up is kinda quick but at the same time not really because of how much game there is and the demands Lara has pressured on her.

I feel like people may have missed the dialogue where I think Roth asks her about how killing someone must've been tough and she said its scary how easy it was. IMO the way that was delivered spoke wonders to both the narrative and gameplay, and it wasn't in a forced way; she was still struggling over the course of the game to come to terms with what she's doing, knowing necessity is what drives her above everything. Combat dialogue, or lack thereof, supports this. As far as I am in the game right now, I think it's pretty reasonable that she would be conditioned to do what she has to do considering the series of events that occur. Also apparent she has immunity to developing mental disorders, but yeah.

That one line kind-of bridged the gap between brutal murderer and the rest of her personality for me. The only thing that is dissonant is how brutal the melee stuff is, but again, I don't see alternatives unless you want to remove melee and executions, which are in for gameplay purposes, and ultimately gameplay comes first.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
spuit*11 said:
They completely failed to mitigate the disconnect between the whining and yelping story-Lara and stonecold brutal serialkiller gameplay-Lara.
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If I'm reading this right, it sounds like Episode III syndrome?

Naive innocent... Naive innocent... Naive innocent... Stone Cold Killer... Stone Cold Killer... Stone Cold Killer...
 
M

Mononoke

Banned
I liked this game. The violence didn't bother me. My issue was more the repetitiveness of the linear action parts. Especially the back half. But in terms of the character and plot, the violence didn't bother me.
 
TGO

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Lime said:
It's kind of weird that people think Lara and Sam had a romantic relationship. It's like two women can't be good friends without people assuming they are lesbians.
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I never once thought that while playing TR and I usually spot those kinda things, I think some where just wishful thinking TBH
 
R

RagnarokX

Member
BocoDragon said:
If I'm reading this right, it sounds like Episode III syndrome?

Naive innocent... Naive innocent... Naive innocent... Stone Cold Killer... Stone Cold Killer... Stone Cold Killer...
Click to expand...

More like: Naive innocent... Stone Cold Killer... Naive innocent... Stone Cold Killer... Stone Cold Killer... Stone Cold Killer... Stone Cold Killer... Stone Cold Killer... Stone Cold Killer... Stone Cold Killer... Stone Cold Killer... Stone Cold Killer... Stone Cold Killer... Stone Cold Killer... Stone Cold Killer...
 
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