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Misogyny, sexism & why RPS isn't shutting up

Lime

Member
RPS just published an article about the constant opposition and denial of the problems of sexism in the games industry. It's pretty disheartening to read about the amount of opposition and name-calling that John Walker has received for covering the issues the games industry has in terms of gender imbalance, inequality, and discrimination. Most importantly, Walker provides convincing reasons for why this is an important issue and that constantly deflecting it is simply not acceptable.

I imagine some people on GAF are tired of this issue, but it is an important one and people need to be aware of that people are actively harmed and/or marginalized in our culture and industry, and that all should strive to completely reduce it. I think RPS's piece should be sufficiently convincing.

Why the topic matters:
Women are mistreated and misrepresented in and by the games industry. It’s not a matter of opinion, a political position, or claim made to reinforce previous bias. It’s the demonstrable, sad truth. Ask women in the games industry – find out. That you may not perceive it does not mean it doesn’t exist. That you may not perpetuate it doesn’t mean it isn’t relevant to you. Whether you are male or female or identify anywhere between does not exclude you nor repudiate you from the matter. The amount to which you think it doesn’t exist is directly proportional to the amount to which you do not care that it exists. If you don’t care that it exists, I hope you are willing to be open-minded enough to try to empathise with others that do – at least give that a go. And if you care passionately about it, and feel offended by the tone of this piece as if it doesn’t acknowledge you, then I apologise, and hope you understand why.

About the opposition RPS has received when covering it:
In having written about the subject of women and games over the years, I’ve received a significant amount of abuse. (I’m not going to fret about saying, “But of course not as bad as…”, because of course it’s not as bad as…) Most of the abuse I receive is lazy insults, and until recently I tended to assume them fairly innocuous. Some has been extreme, such as forum threads dedicated to associating my name with acts of child molestation to skew Google results, personal threats, and deeply personal insults. All of it has one purpose: to intimidate. Whether the purpose of the intimidation is because the person wants to read about new screenshots for a game and not gender politics, or because they are violently defending their privilege, it’s always about intimidation.

It can fit into a variety of categories, but there’s always just that one intent. While a lot has been extreme, the majority just want the discussion to go away, and angrily tell me why I need to stop talking about it. And indeed the vast majority of the non-hostile communication takes the form of, “I just wish you’d stop talking about this.” But the thing is, that’s not okay, either.

About the things people should NOT write or respond to when it comes to the topics of sexism in the games industry. If you want to read why you shouldn't use these types of responses, read the article.

  • “Why are you writing about feminism on a GAMING site?”
  • “What happened to this site? You used to write about GAMES.”
  • “You’re just trying to be a white knight/get laid.”
  • “Why don’t you talk about men’s issues?”
  • “I know a girl who thinks X, so you are wrong.”
  • “People are exaggerating on both sides.”
  • “It’s just a bit of fun.”
These replies are all false and should not be echoed again and again each time the issue of sexism is talked about. I've seen the same fallacies come up on GAF on numerous occasions, so it would be great if people would realize the wrongness of invoking them and cease negating the issue. For reasons why, check the article itself.

Conclusion
We do not believe that in any resulting greater equality anyone will suffer. Gamers will not lose out. Call Of Duty will still be released every November, with angry soldier men shouting “FUCK!” as they shoot down a helicopter. That isn’t going to go away. Instead we fight for greater variety in those resulting games. And we fight for safer, more friendly spaces in which they can be created. And we fight for a media that celebrates equality, and discourages cruelty and inequality. When anything gets in the way of that, we’re going to say so.
 

Haunted

Member
I admit, I was a bit disappointed by some of the reactions in the RPS community/comments section. One of the better ones around, usually, but I've seen the same kind of responses like on other, lesser sites. Shame, really.

Good on RPS for keeping it up.

I just wish we'd stop talking about this.
I don't.
 

Boss Man

Member
Ok, I give up my privilege.

Where do I hand it in?


It's just... too much. Sexism is a thing and it's bad, but sometimes the Intenet will latch onto something and make it completely relevant and irrelevant and the same time. You can't have an actual discussion about it right now because it's that thing. Especially in the context of video games. I wonder why it seems to garner so much attention from the gaming crowd?

That's why I'm focusing my efforts on KONY 2013 instead.
 
I just wish we'd stop talking about this.

Yeah, there are much more worthwhile topics to dicscuss about the industry.
Like who just owned who on twitter, or when the first leaked details of a popular game series whose entries exceed 5 might come out.
 

Herla

Member
Covering episodes of sexism in the game industry is totally fine.
Accusing developers/trailers of sexism/misogyny for no reason in articles that aren't about sexism/misogyny is not. And, sadly, RPS seems to do that a bit too frequently for my tastes.
 

Zefiro

Banned
One day i was going through my gaming sites to ceck out news and what's not, that day the homepage of RPS was something like 4-5 femminist propaganda articles and just a couple videogames related news.

And that was the day when i swapped out RPS with PC gamers from my gaming tabs.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
“Why are you writing about feminism on a GAMING site?”
“What happened to this site? You used to write about GAMES.”
“You’re just trying to be a white knight/get laid.”
“Why don’t you talk about men’s issues?”
“I know a girl who thinks X, so you are wrong.”
“People are exaggerating on both sides.”
“It’s just a bit of fun.”

These reasons are such bullshit, and such a terrible way to opt out of the issue. I mean, those people are not obligated to freaking read it.

I just wish we'd stop talking about this.

And this is what I'm talking about. You're not obligated to enter the thread to discuss the issue, but if you really need to contribute, at least help people to realize that this is an actual problem in the industry that needs to be fixed.
 

Lime

Member
I just wish we'd stop talking about this.

You don't think this matter? You are implicitly telling the people who feel discriminated against when engaging with games that we shouldn't talk about it?

These reasons are such bullshit, and such a terrible way to opt out of the issue. I mean, those people are not obligated to freaking read it.

You'd be surprised how many times those replies are brought up on GAF.
 

The_Monk

Member
I never gave much thought about this but when fellow GAFfers posted some articles in here saying that a company stated that "putting a girl/woman as a main character could be bad business/would not sell" or some even refused to publish a game based on this is pretty sad.

I can't believe there's still sexism even in the gaming industry. I loved all the Tomb Raider games and I'm playing Gravity Rush for the first time and I'm 100% loving it. More games should have more lead females, it could even bring more women to playing videogames? I have no idea but the idea that a game does/might not sell based on the gender of the main character confuses me... Maybe because I'm not fully educated on their business but I can only say that I do not agree. And Marketing is my area of "expertise" so if anyone is blaming Marketeers I would love to be one of those that can to the good deeds.
 

EscoBlades

Ubisoft Marketing
Good on RPS. They should continue to talk about it till we are blue in the face/ attitudes change.

Would love for the same sort of strength when it comes to the issue of racism in the industry....but that is for another time/ thread.
 

Atomski

Member
I just wish we'd stop talking about this.

Why? these discussions make it feel like the medium is actually starting to grow up. Sexism has been discussed tons in any other form of entertainment why should videogames be immune to it?
 
This is not a political forum to push ones own agendas?

"Political"? "Agenda"? Like there's some other valid side to this cogently arguing that women should just deal with harassment , rape threats and a glass ceiling?

"Hey man, it's like, just my opinion. Let's leave politics out of this." SMH
 

pixlexic

Banned
"Political"? "Agenda"? Like there's some other valid side to this cogently arguing that women should just deal with harassment , rape threats and a glass ceiling?

"Hey man, it's like, just my opinion. Let's leave politics out of this." SMH

if it were just about those you would be correct.
 

hey_it's_that_dog

benevolent sexism
All these people making all these threads are doing is turning a serious matter into a circus/annoying subject that people will quickly dismiss.

You're right, not talking about a serious matter is much more productive.

pushing ones opinion on what meets said gender equality and what doesn't.. is.

Forums are essentially about pushing one's opinion to one degree or another. You can easily ignore threads about this topic if you need to.
 
Yeah, because we have so many more important things to talk about.

The redundancy isn't a reason in itself to quell the discussion. It's more reason the discussion needs to happen.

Give me discussion threads like these over another graphics argument any day.
 

Lime

Member
I'm aware of the situation by now

What am I supposed to do as a gamer to help?

  1. Be open and listen to when a marginalized group has something to say about them feeling discriminated against.
  2. Call out and condemn blatant examples of sexism/racism/homophobia, so that people know that such acts simply aren't acceptable. Whether it is within a game, in an online match, in a professional tournament, in a game developer company, in hiring contexts, in big public conventions, at E3, on forums, in comments sections, etc.
  3. Criticize games that reproduce or actively discriminates an already marginalized minority
  4. Tell people who don't think we should listen to women/non-Whites/LBGT that they are wrong and that all should listen to what they have to say
  5. Read up on the more unconscious ideals that also contribute to inequalities between social groups. There are a lot of hidden beliefs like "pink = girls" and "blue = boys" that contribute to marginalization. E.g. "a woman does not by nature like programming" or "a woman would not like male-oriented games like Call of Duty" and shit like that.
 

pixlexic

Banned
Yeah, seriously. It should be everyone's agenda.

You can say that but my point is... what is the goal?

That is where you guys lose me. Who is to say what is the standard for equality? Should developers be forced to alter their stories ?

Why cant I like to play certain games and not have to feel bad about it?
 
4chan users send death threats to anyone they disagree with, because, the average person on 4chan is incapable of genuine human interaction or they're just trolling.
 

JudgeN

Member
I kind of feel like this issue would get more interest if it was about all minorities instead of just women. I"m black and all my characters tend to be our stereotypical pimps, gangster, and sports athletes but no seems to have a problem with this for some reason. I understand that women are treated unfairly but so are alot of other Ethnicity/races/genders if you see were I'm coming from.
 

Famassu

Member
One day i was going through my gaming sites to ceck out news and what's not, that day the homepage of RPS was something like 4-5 femminist propaganda articles and just a couple videogames related news.

And that was the day when i swapped out RPS with PC gamers from my gaming tabs.
Sorry if real life problems are too hard for you to take. And what exactly makes it feminist "propaganda"? Are you one of those sad little men who think feminism is a threat against their manhood or something?

How is covering news of the often horribly sexist working conditions in the gaming industry NOT video game related news?

I guess some immature people just want to keep their heads in their asses.
 

Espada

Member
On one hand I support equality, but on the other I really feel like John Walker should route this discussion to websites focused on the feminist movement. Discussion would be a lot more nuanced and in a space designed for it, plus there would be feminist resources if folks are interested in diving deeper. People are understandably annoyed that politics is invading a recreational pursuit.
 

RedStep

Member
I think it's a valid thought, but goddamn am I tired of the yelling from soapboxes, followed by more yelling when somebody yells back at your soapbox.

If you want to promote equality and change in games, DO IT. Promote those things by covering them and showing people what they're missing.

If you want to promote equality and change in journalism, DO IT. Provide the example. Provide the diversity of opinion that makes people notice.

But stop fucking screaming "you're wrong" over and over. Nobody's listening, that doesn't actually make a change. It draws a line and makes people angry (either because they're against you, or because they're for you and others are not). This is not a public movement. Politicians and the world are not forced to listen. It's a nerd fight, and it's embarrassing.
 

aeolist

Banned
I kind of feel like this issue would get more interest if it was about all minorities instead of just women. I"m black and all my characters tend to be our stereotypical pimps, gangster, and sports athletes but no seems to have a problem with this for some reason. I understand that women are treated unfairly but so are alot of other Ethnicity/races/genders if you see were I'm coming from.

avatarquote.jpg
 

Gattsu25

Banned
Still reading this but he tackles the bullshit behind "white knight" accusations, too.

Good read so far

edit:

“You’re just trying to be a white knight/get laid.”

I go a lot more into this response in my personal thoughts above, but the short version is: er, no. Personally, I’m happily married thanks. And I see no damsels to rescue. I just have the bare dregs of empathy for human suffering. And that’s apparently some kind of problem?

This particular response is designed to undermine the writer, not only suggesting that caring about equality is something inherently driven by a desire for sex/validation, but that the very idea of caring at all is so unrealistic. Either the accuser cannot conceive of the notion of caring about another’s rights independently of one’s own gratification, or they are so fearful of the potential of equality that they’re driven to undermine those who argue for it. Either way, if you’re typing the words “white knight”, you’re revealing more about your own peculiar understanding of how humans interact than anything else.
 
4chan users send death threats to anyone they disagree with, because, the average person on 4chan is incapable of genuine human interaction or they're just trolling.

It's not even about 4chan. I don't think anyone is thinking about that level of gamer when they bring up this issue. Scumbags will be scumbags.

It's more about people within the industry.
 

Zefiro

Banned
Sorry if real life problems are too hard for you to take. And what exactly makes it feminist "propaganda"? Are you one of those sad little men who think feminism is a threat against their manhood or something?

How is covering news of the often horribly sexist working conditions in the gaming industry NOT video game related news?

I guess some immature people just want to keep their heads in their asses.

I just like to get videogame news from my videogames sites, whats the matter?
From what high ground are you calling me immature?

I've played games for most of my 30 year life, i like a good story, i love good gameplay and i dont care if my character is white, black, male, female the only thing i care for is if the game is any good.


Also talking about horribly sexist working conditions in the industry:

http://www.giantbomb.com/videos/gdc-2013-after-hours-livestream-spectacular-part-0/2300-7205/

There skip for the last set of guests, 2 successfull industry woman talking about how the industry actually work, but i guess you'd rater give attention to some god blessed femminist on youtube with 0 experience of the matter or help the RPS crew get laid by joining their white knight crusade.
 
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