Lowlander2
Banned
I approve that this message at least gets passed around. The only reason I don't really say more on this is because I have little to add. I don't know what I could say beyond what has been said.
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Misogyny, sexism & why RPS isn't shutting up
- Thread starter Lime
- Start date
That's actually kind of a sexist thing to say.
Nobody is doing the things you say they are doing. Every one of your posts here has been arguing with a strawman.
So you're mad about a strawman.
This topic makes me feel so tired, so exhausted.
All of the shouting and accusations and back and forth bullshit is never going to get anyone anywhere.
You're wrong.
No, YOU'RE wrong.
No! YOU'RE WRONG-ER!
SEXIST! MISOGYNIST! EVILDOER!
Screaming, crying, lashing out. At video games. It started when Anita decided she was going to take advantage of whiny neckbeards and white knights all at once when she realized she could capitalize on the audience of her fucked up Bayonetta video, and has continued to spiral out of control ever since.
Twitter, Tumblr, reddit, and GAF itself have all fallen into this rut of faux-heroism over social justice in the land of video games. Making yourself look "good" over everyone else by being hyper-sensitive, hyper-critical, and as loud as possible does nothing but hurt any actual, positive cause. And it's always the same people.
All of the shouting and accusations and back and forth bullshit is never going to get anyone anywhere.
You're wrong.
No, YOU'RE wrong.
No! YOU'RE WRONG-ER!
SEXIST! MISOGYNIST! EVILDOER!
Screaming, crying, lashing out. At video games. It started when Anita decided she was going to take advantage of whiny neckbeards and white knights all at once when she realized she could capitalize on the audience of her fucked up Bayonetta video, and has continued to spiral out of control ever since.
Twitter, Tumblr, reddit, and GAF itself have all fallen into this rut of faux-heroism over social justice in the land of video games. Making yourself look "good" over everyone else by being hyper-sensitive, hyper-critical, and as loud as possible does nothing but hurt any actual, positive cause. And it's always the same people.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
The article is specifically directed at people that flat out deny that there is sexism in gaming. There's a difference between completely denying a problem and recognizing a problem and working towards a future where that problem is stifled and everything is equal.
"Equal" doesn't mean we need to get rid of what you already like, it means that there needs to be something to counter it to broaden the horizons of the medium. Because as it is right now, it's extremely repetitive and desperately needs parity.
You are projecting too much into the whole topic.
It is not about guilt.
It is not about apologizing (although it wouldn't hurt
).It is about being made aware of mistakes and/or parts of reality that you weren't aware of beforehand, and then from then on acting on this new "knowledge". Avoid being sexist/racist/homophobic. Listen to what people have to say. Then try to create games, talk with other people, visit conventions, respond to articles, etc. *without* repeating the same mistakes you one made before when you weren't aware of the consequences of them.
Tummi Gummi
Member
The "standard for equality" for people like John Walker is when games are fashioned entirely in line with the tenets of his ideology. You're talking about someone who devoted an entire article to browbeating a game aimed at the tween girl demographic for having the audacity to revolve around cute boys and pink dresses. If a game isn't promoting gender-neutral portrayals of women, he's not going to be satisfied. If you buy pink things for girls and blue things for boys, John Walker has a problem with you. If you like seeing fake women with fake boobs in your games, John Walker has a problem with you. If you don't care that a modern manshoot uses arabs or russians as cannon fodder, John Walker has a problem with you.
It's why I mentioned in another thread that there's no argument to be had with him or his articles. They pander to people who share John Walker's opinions on things. So the reasonable action would be to simply ignore them. Would you walk into a gardening class and go "gee guys, don't you ever talk about something other than potted plants?"
The problem with RPS is that it got to a point where John Walker's vaguely-gaming-related articles were beginning to make up a significant chunk of the blog's output on a given day. Why would John Walker be doing a WiT on Medal of Honor in the first place, when he quite predictably spent much of the article complaining about how it was racist and disrespectful to women? I remember laughing out loud during Doritosgate when he used the Totilo-esque defense of "well it's not even really to do with gaming, so I left it on my blog", because the first thing that popped into my head was an RPS interview with some singer who had nothing to do with games beyond mentioning them in her lyrics.
So I think people quite reasonably complained when they felt that a blog devoted to gaming and theoretically immune to the playful inanity of Kotaku was sliding into a place where gaming and gaming mechanics were not the central focus. At this point? I don't know what the correct response to RPS is. You could say "just ignore Walker", but the other writers fall prey to his impulses a bit. Which might not be an issue in itself, but when you're specifically avoiding one writer because of that, and yet still face it in the work of other writers, maybe you should find another blog.
tl;dr *shrug*
Shaming people is a good way of making them oppose you even more and become even less likely to change their ways. I agree that it's a real problem that needs to be discussed, but there has to be better ways of going about it. Although some people will unfortunately never change anyway so I guess it's a moot point.
This is where you are wrong. Just the suggestion that games are all about " white males " and "damsels in distress" instantly makes it issue of " is it wrong to like games with those?
Frankly attitudes like this are possibly worse than openly sexist or racist ones.
You and the silent majority of people like you are enabling everything that's offensive and oppressive about games.
Riposte
Member
People are free to ask for anything they want and go about ways of convincing devs to comply. It is the moral high ground when discussing videogame content that is provoking (i.e. "Your expression/entertainment must be changed to suit my tastes" is in fact a threatening position). It is a completely different issue from something like actual people being discriminated against while working in the videogame industry. Combining these two under a single "sexism in games" argument seems like a fine recipe for alienation and a bunch of needless arguments.
Charoncaori
Member
I think the concept of a game being sexist is pretty abstract and up to personal interpretation. So no one should be telling you to stop enjoying a game because it is sexist. You could give me a thousand reasons why bayonetta is sexist, and I'd disagree with you all day. That's not what we should be fighting about.
We should instead be pushing to include more women in the industry, as workers and consumers. You can change your game to appeal more to women (this really isn't hard to do), or you don't have to. We should try to make women more visible overall, and raise tolerance, especially in certain online communities.
Not short sighted. I don't have much invested into it because I don't really care for it. If anything I find this motion for equality represented for the sexes would hamper an artist's freedom to express himself because of the nagging need to be politically correct. That artists have to fit a specific paradigm written out by the book of political correctness in order to avoid controversial and unwanted attention.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Yes, that definitely needs to happen. To be honest, RPS's discussion feels like a forum debate, an IM conversation; this kind of back-and-forth really shouldn't happen on an editorial level.
My investment in this issue is purely because I want to see a happier industry. The debate iiiiiisn't exactly achieving that so far.
When video games are actually oppressive I'm sure I'll have something to say about it.
Okay, here's a thought experiment for you. You are out walking your dog on the left side of the street. Now imagine that someone comes up to you and calls you an idiot and an asshole for doing that. What's your FIRST reaction? Is it to say, "oh, you are right. I am an asshole for walking my dog on the left side of the street", or is it to get self defensive and angry?
The truth of the matter is that the people who are doing these things do not see them as wrong - and for the more part, many of these behaviors are simply inconsiderate rather than illegal or immoral. Unless they can recognize that their behavior deserves to be changed, you can lob all the insults and vitriol you want and the only damn thing you'll get in return is more of the same.
I don't see how this is relevant. I'm not gay or a minority or a woman, but that doesn't mean that I'm not on their side and that I am incapable of working for their cause. I just think that the current discussion is offputting and likely doing more harm than good.
This is actually an issue I do care about (I have two daughters), but I just don't think the solution is to offend the very people you want to change.
This is a good point. The article is about the industry, but we've already gotten sidetracked.
Your insecurities and fear of not being privileged makes you think the discussion is about that.
The discussion is about having respect for other human beings, enabling their creativity unfettered by oppression, and hopefully generating a wider variety of game experiences than what exists right now.
Having games with white guys shooting people to save a girl is fine. Having basically every single game out there being that is not.
Kelegacy
XBOX - RECORD ME LOVING DOWN MY WOMAN GOOD
That has happened for me. I'm all about equality, but I'm sick of it. At least the approach we've taken. We've all become self haters all of a sudden. I hate the approach the industry has taken regarding males just as much as females.
My problem is, I've stopped caring for the most part which is unfortunate. The industry as a whole is incredibly immature and has more issues than just this. I can't bring myself to worry about this issue more than any other, but it's the one that gets brought up and carted around every day.
I do think both sides of the discussion are filled with idiots, and I just wish it would go away. I hate that this has brought the angry feminists out of the woodwork, which only makes matters even worse.
I think we've shot ourselves in the foot for any serious discussion, and at this point it's almost become a mockery.
You CAN not enter this thread and continue in blissful ignorance of what is affecting a large number people in this industry that produces you these videogames you so desperately want to discuss about. Or you could at least try to sympathize with this issue and at least try to do something small for improving the status quo (like giving RPS a click since they are battling the issue) instead of ignoring it altogether in your small, perfect little world just because you have to read a couple of headlines about the subject.
This isn't just about characters in gaming, but a wider issue that affects real-life people too. I'm not sure if racism is that big of an issue in many parts of the world (I mean, I see plenty of Asian, black, hispanic etc. people working together) - though I'm sure it does exist and of course is no way less important to fight against than gender inequality - but your proposition that we should discuss about X instead of Y is kind of a stupid one. Just because there are other issues we shouldn't ignore this particular one. If you feel that there's a case to be made of racism in gaming (industry and/or in games themselves), then go ahead, try to bring it into the light of discussion and maybe there's something there we can improve.
But gender inequality is affecting a big portion of about a half of the population of the world, even in our precious not-too-serious hobby of gaming, it's not something that should be brushed aside.
Uhh.. the standard for equality is... equality? That no woman would need to face the kind of sexist treatment they too often do in this and that many other industries and that their work efforts would be appreciated as much as men's do (in the form that it's silly why they get way less pay for the same jobs).
It mostly boils down to lazy storytelling/design in my opinion.
I don't think that developers are being intentionally sexist, but they know their core audience and 'sex sells', or at least they think this is the case. So instead of seeing one-dimensional roided meat heads you see one-dimensional scantly clad eye candy.
Though I find it odd that gamers are now discussing this subject, as it was much worse in the past.
And really, what would people like changed?
I don't think that developers are being intentionally sexist, but they know their core audience and 'sex sells', or at least they think this is the case. So instead of seeing one-dimensional roided meat heads you see one-dimensional scantly clad eye candy.
Though I find it odd that gamers are now discussing this subject, as it was much worse in the past.
And really, what would people like changed?
Charoncaori
Member
Oh for fucks sake, this shit didn't start with the fucking Anita thread. I've gotten into arguments on GAF about this before that happened, and I've been arguing for my place as a female gamer since I picked up a fucking game boy. The fact is that gaming is still treated as a boys' club.
I know it's not what you mean nor am I accusing you of it, but why should people stop being functioning adults the moment they clock out of work?
It's odd because we have so much information, statistics and voices from the industry itself pointing out all these issues and then there will be these huge threads on the forums about how sexism, racism and other minority discrimination in gaming either doesn't exist or isn't that big of a problem.
If more people would just continue to be functioning adults in all parts of their lives then I think we could address these issues so much easier. And I think that's where some of the breakdown with sexism in videogames stems from. Some people, who would probably otherwise speak out if they had to witness it in person at a job, just stop caring there moment their in their living rooms.
Anyway, just want to repeat that I don't think you do this only that your comment made me think of that type of attitude.
The vitriol spewed towards Anita seems like some special kind of hatred. It's startlingly remarkable in that regard. But you are 100% correct that Anita didn't begin this dialogue. I can only assume that she's spread the message much further than it's been?
seriously? you are now declaring personal statements about me as if fact. You are just like what you say you are against.
No, it's not. The tone of the discussion betrays the true intention. Maybe the discussion didn't start there, but it's there now. I think it would benefit us all to dial the contempt back a bit and try to have this discussion without the anger or blame.You are projecting too much into the whole topic.
It is not about guilt.
It is not about apologizing (although it wouldn't hurt
It is about being made aware of mistakes and/or parts of reality that you weren't aware of beforehand, and then from then on acting on this new "knowledge". Avoid being sexist/racist/homophobic. Listen to what people have to say. Then try to create games, talk with other people, visit conventions, respond to articles, etc. *without* repeating the same mistakes you one made before when you weren't aware of the consequences of them.
Are you blanket attributing this tone to all new discussions on this subject? Is this tone present in the article?
No, that actually is fine.
Tummi Gummi
Member
The problem is that it's a John Walker article, and Walker does use those two interchangeably. He's made at least two "Public Announcement"-style articles on RPS telling everyone to stop complaining about the non-gaming or political-browbeating aspects of his gaming-related articles (and shutting down the comments, natch). I ignore all Anita-related threads on neogaf, but this thread is about RPS in particular.
I fail to see how an endeavour of gender equality is idiotic.
The only ones who are shooting themselves in the foot (and dragging the entire discussion down with them) are the people who constantly oppose, negate, or reduce the issue. It blemishes and taints the perception of the games culture, and we cannot move on to discuss how to be more inclusive in the industry and community.
If the original vision is misogynistic shit, I see no problem with forcing publishers to alter their "vision".
Forcing means that the public opinion has finally changed so far, that such games won't be bought. Articles like RPS' is a good start.
ahahahahaha ok I'm done talking to you
That statement was meant...in a video game ... like is it equal games with 50% male protagonist 50% women? or is that women can never ever be damsels in distress? what is the goal post?
That was the turning point where it became the in thing. The number one topic to be outraged over. Always outraged. Over culture. Gaming culture.
You know, gaming "culture" is utter shit and every person on this planet should stay the fuck away from it. It's full of dumbasses who just want to be a part of whever is the most popular. Portal, Call of Duty, Skyrim... all great games in their own right but the people who play them and take them out of their own context as GAMES and turn them into this, I don't know, societal item, this plaything, a reference, I don't know. That stuff is not why I'm involved in video games and I'm so damn tired of it being ruined by all of that shit.
So tired.
You can feel the condescending tone and they lose me a bit also. Go play your stupid tits or war game. Lets get real games approved by feminist. That is the vibe I get from this movement. The goal is a good one but less reverse shaming would help quell the backlash.
Honestly in this thread you see people calling others names that are not on this bandwagon. Making crazy accusations like are you scared about your manhood. Such a condescending attitude by some of you.
People in this thread talk about educating yourself to be aware of these issues. Why not have a more inclusive vibe for those that don't align with your points? Take off the feminist glasses long enough to see the flipside of the coin. Your pushing people away that are in the middle and might listen to your points.
My my personal view is everyone should get paid the same wage if you have the talent.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
No it's not. It alienates entire demographics because they feel misrepresented and frankly as a straight white male it's bad because it's fucking boring to play the same person all the time.
Those games shouldn't all go away, but we need different experiences playing as different people so the medium can expand. Because at the moment it's stuck in a stagnant rut.
No, actually it isn't. I'm assuming you're trying to be cute but even cutting out the gender implications of the statement, I wouldn't want every game on the market to be a shooter. Diversity is good and stifling that diversity is a disservice to the industry.
Kelegacy
XBOX - RECORD ME LOVING DOWN MY WOMAN GOOD
If game creation is viewed as art the same way movies and books and music are, who are we to tell artists to change the characters they include in games? If the original vision is for a white guy saving a girl, should we have any say in changing that? I'm a white guy and when I write stories my main character is usually a white man. It's what I relate to. Until more minorities start getting involved in game design and making art their way, I can't really find any fault in it.
I know one of the arguments is that women aren't exactly respected in the industry so how can they make or influence art this way? I think the indie scene is a good start and helps bleed over and influence the industry as a whole. If those are the baby steps we need, so be it.
But demanding artists change their vision to include everyone isn't fair either. They can choose to include or leave out whomever they wish in my opinion.
I know one of the arguments is that women aren't exactly respected in the industry so how can they make or influence art this way? I think the indie scene is a good start and helps bleed over and influence the industry as a whole. If those are the baby steps we need, so be it.
But demanding artists change their vision to include everyone isn't fair either. They can choose to include or leave out whomever they wish in my opinion.
partyphone
Banned
We should probably burn every old great literary work ever made then.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
Sometimes good things have bad elements in them.
Money talks, bullshit walks.
As soon as developers believe there is a viable female-centric base for whom they can cater games to, we'll see a change in the way games are made.
An even more interesting question is why this change hasn't come about yet. According to the studies I've read, the gender gap is closing... So why hasn't this been reflected in the way games are made?
The article is called, "Misogyny, Sexism, And Why RPS Isnt Shutting Up". And the title is probably the least confrontational part of the article.
Portugeezer
Gold Member
Yawn. Just my 2 cents.
Charoncaori
Member
Look. Here's an example. Minecraft is hugely popular, and gameplay is pretty damn gender neutral. It's pretty much Legos. You can skin your character to look like anything you want, male or female. But for a huge part of the beta, when you took damage, your character made a very manly grunting noise.
Presumably, enough girls played the game and were annoyed by this, that Mojang eventually took the sound out and replaced it with a cracking noise. The game suddenly became a lot more gender neutral by simply changing this one sound. Did this compromise their vision? Was it motivated by political correctness? I don't think so.
Someone talking about people "voting with their wallets" is now equivalent to book burnings?
edit: vv Kazerei...diversity isn't even the goal...just to better represent the audience that consumes games
Nobody is asking that old games be destroyed. Just that new games be made more diverse.