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Sound Issues: PS4 Linear PCM outputting 7.1 to 5.1 receivers in games?

Awntawn

Member
I made a post in the inFamous thread about how I was getting a deadzone in the back of my 5.1 setup even with all of the ingame and system settings set properly.

The problem is fairly easy to identify in an open world game like inFamous. The best way to tell is in segments where you have an NPC in the area with you talking to you. If you spin your camera around, you'll notice that the voice practically disappears as the source pans directly behind you, and reappears on the other side when you get there.

The solution proposed was to switch over to DTS, which has effectively solved the problem. However, I'm not one for just sweeping problems under the rug, so a friend and I ran some tests.

The problem pops up in MGSV Ground Zeroes as well. Stand with a flagpole behind your camera and move the camera around in LPCM mode. Set it to DTS and try again. It's a world of difference.

The results seem to vary depending on the game. AC4 Black Flag, for example, works just fine. I even had an NPC conveniently start to whistle for me to help me with my test. On the other hand, my friend reports that the problem is present in NFS Rivals; you don't hear the honking directly behind you in LPCM.

The best guess that I can come up with is that, in LPCM mode, the PS4 is not discerning between 7.1 and 5.1, and will output 7.1 as long as the game supports it, no matter what it's plugged into. As a result, if you have a 5.1 setup, it sounds as if you're missing two speakers behind you. With games that only support up to 5.1, it works just fine. I'm not an expert and I don't really know how these things work, so this is just a hypothesis at best. However, there definitely seems to be an issue with the output of 5.1 via LPCM for many games on the PS4.

If you have your PS4 plugged into a 5.1 setup and are running with LPCM, please try it out and report back if you have the same issues. It's a very specific problem that's hard to notice since it's so conditional based off of your setup and settings, so there hasn't been very much noise made (no pun intended) about the situation, but hopefully, assuming there really is a problem, we can raise some awareness and get Sony to do something about it.

Update for more specificity on the issue:
I can't imagine it being intentional. To me it seems like a major oversight in terms of the PS4-side down mixing, or lack thereof. Here are the projected scenarios:

Receiver supports 7.1, 7.1 speakers attached -> PS4 sends 7.1 signal, No problems
Receiver supports 7.1, 5.1 speakers attached -> PS4 sends 7.1 signal, receiver down mixes to 5.1. No problems
Receiver does not support 7.1 but accepts 7.1 input -> PS4 sends 7.1 signal, receiver down mixes to 5.1. No problems
Receiver does not support 7.1 and does not accept 7.1 input -> PS4 cuts off last 2 channels rather than down mixing properly, sends 5.1 signal with missing channels. Problems.
 

burgerdog

Member
If it wasn't for infamous making this problem extremely obvious I would have probably gone through the entire gen missing surround left+right audio. Hell, I didn't even know cars honked at you in NFS until Awntawn brought this up and I switched to DTS.
 

LegoDad

Member
Sony knows about issues with the auto detection from PS4 to receivers. It is also a problem on blu-rays.They need to implement the PS3 audio selection instead of relying on the auto detection. There are far too many audio setups for auto to get it right every time.
 

Awntawn

Member
Sony knows about issues with the auto detection from PS4 to receivers. It is also a problem on blu-rays.They need to implement the PS3 audio selection instead of relying on the auto detection. There are far too many audio setups for auto to get it right every time.
Is it on their to-do list at least? However long it would actually take them to get to it notwithstanding. The interesting thing is that the receiver does detect a 5.1 LPCM signal as evidenced by the display, but the actual sound just seems to be missing channels.
Turn it off and turn it back on? (Quality IT advice)
Nope, completely repeatable problem that's there every time without fail.
 

NekoFever

Member
I think it always outputting 7.1 is exactly the issue. I have a 7.1 receiver with only 5.1 speakers attached, and the receiver always gets a 7.1 signal from the PS4. DTS is limited to 5.1 so sidesteps the problem.

Funnily enough I was testing this yesterday when I was watching an in-game TV news report and spinning the camera to hear it moving around me. I didn't notice any particular gaps in the sound, but I guess different receivers will map a 7.1 signal to 5.1 speakers in different ways.

Mine's a Denon if anyone wants to compare.
 

Awntawn

Member
I think it always outputting 7.1 is exactly the issue. I have a 7.1 receiver with only 5.1 speakers attached, and the receiver always gets a 7.1 signal from the PS4. DTS is limited to 5.1 so sidesteps the problem.

Funnily enough I was testing this yesterday when I was watching an in-game TV news report and spinning the camera to hear it moving around me. I didn't notice any particular gaps in the sound, but I guess different receivers will map a 7.1 signal to 5.1 speakers in different ways.

Mine's a Denon if anyone wants to compare.

burgerdog and I are both using Onkyo, mine specifically is the HT-S3500
 
I think it always outputting 7.1 is exactly the issue. I have a 7.1 receiver with only 5.1 speakers attached, and the receiver always gets a 7.1 signal from the PS4. DTS is limited to 5.1 so sidesteps the problem.

Funnily enough I was testing this yesterday when I was watching an in-game TV news report and spinning the camera to hear it moving around me. I didn't notice any particular gaps in the sound, but I guess different receivers will map a 7.1 signal to 5.1 speakers in different ways.

Mine's a Denon if anyone wants to compare.

Exact same scenario as me except mines a Pioneer. I figure the receiver is doing some magic to turn the 7.1 to 5.1 but I'd rather not worry about it and have left it on DTS for now.
 

Awntawn

Member
Exact same scenario as me except mines a Pioneer. I figure the receiver is doing some magic to turn the 7.1 to 5.1 but I'd rather not worry about it and have left it on DTS for now.
Problem is, correct me if I'm wrong about this, I believe games only output in regular DTS, not DTSHD, which is a significant step down from LPCM. Movies seem to output in DTSHD so it's not really any difference there.
 

LegoDad

Member
Is it on their to-do list at least? However long it would actually take them to get to it notwithstanding. The interesting thing is that the receiver does detect a 5.1 LPCM signal as evidenced by the display, but the actual sound just seems to be missing channels.

Nope, completely repeatable problem that's there every time without fail.

It has been submitted and they are looking into it. I'll add this thread to the submission. Hoping they would touch base on this in the upcoming update.
 

alr1ght

bish gets all the credit :)
Yes it is an issue. I set mine to LPCM (auto) or whatever the setting is called. Because my switch says it's 7.1 compatible, I simply can't listen via headphones to games that have a 7.1 track (KZSF) because a bunch of the channels are blanked out (no reload sound for instance). Have to resort to using the controller audio.

PS3 did not have this issue because you could set your number of speakers in the options.
 
Problem is, correct me if I'm wrong about this, I believe games only output in regular DTS, not DTSHD, which is a significant step down from LPCM. Movies seem to output in DTSHD so it's not really any difference there.

This is true to my knowledge also. I'd like to have it set to LPCM but don't want to miss out on sound more importantly.
 
PS4 doesn't let you select your speaker configuration, PS3 did. By default it always outputs at the highest number of channels your receiver reports it supports. Most receivers will report they support 7.1 because they do, even if you physically only have 5.1 connected to it. This is apparently working as intended, because 7.1 can be downmixed to 5.1 and your receiver will be doing this and no sound is lost. If they fix this and the problem with HDMI Full Range I'll be happy obviously.
 

Awntawn

Member
This is true to my knowledge also. I'd like to have it set to LPCM but don't want to miss out on sound more importantly.

Upon further testing, I don't think the PS4 outputs DTSHD via bitstream at all. Movies jump down to normal DTS when I switch to Bitstream (options button during playback), whereas it displays DTSHD-MA when using LPCM (which it defaults to even with DTS selected in the PS4 audio settings)
 

Awntawn

Member
PS4 doesn't let you select your speaker configuration, PS3 did. By default it always outputs at the highest number of channels your receiver reports it supports. Most receivers will report they support 7.1 because they do, even if you physically only have 5.1 connected to it. This is apparently working as intended, because 7.1 can be downmixed to 5.1 and your receiver will be doing this and no sound is lost.
I believe the problem is for receivers that can't receive 7.1. The PS4 seems to be cutting off two channels in order to output 5.1.
 

murgo

Member
I just tried it out.. my PS4 was always set to Linear PCM and I never noticed anything weird. Booted up Infamous, went to a group of protesters and kept panning the camera around. When they're directly behind me their voices come out of both back satellites just fine.

I'm using an Onkyo TX-NR414 btw, which is 5.1 only.
 

TronLight

Everybody is Mikkelsexual
Mmm, this topic made me go check my PS3 and my receiver. And know I don't know what to do. :lol

My receiver supports 7.1, but I have a 5.1 configuration. If I the the PS3 on "Auto", it will select all the 7.1 options, and if I play a game (I used TLOU) the receiver tells me that is outputting 7.1 sound... If I deselect all the 7.1 option, leaving the LPCM 5.1 and the others, I'll get strange results. In LPCM 5,1 the receiver tells me its now outputting multichannel Pro Logic IIX Cinema, DTS is DTS, Dolby Digital 5.1 is Dolby Digital and Pro Logic II is just Pro Logic II (not multichannel altough it sounds like it is?).
With a BluRay, which I guess doesn't support 7.1 audio, si telling me multichannel Pro Logic IIX Cinema.

What do I do gaf.

By looking at the istruction manual, there is a table, "Input Signal > Surround mode". To "LPCM multi channel" correspond both Multichannel + Pro Logic IIX and Multichannel 7.1... So I guess I'm still hearing LPCM 5.1 audio, right?
 
No issues for me. I have a Denon 7.1 receiver with only 5.1 plugged in and it sounds fine. I can pan the camera around and I don't seem to be missing anything. Still, having the actual options like with the PS3 would be nice.
 

LilJoka

Member
Sounds like the PS4 is not mixing the rear 2 channels from a 7.1 output to a 5.1 output. This could be intentional, but im sure a decent receiver will automatically down mix the missing channels into your rear side speakers.

Havent got a PS4, but might run some tests in Windows.

Can people state their receiver models so we get a better idea if its the PS4 or Receiver issue.
 

Rainy Dog

Member
I'm playing Infamous at the moment and LPCM seems to be fine on my 5.1 only Marantz NR1504. Not noticed anything untoward on any other games either. The option to output in 5.1 at system level needs to return like it was on the PS3 however.
 

Awntawn

Member
Sounds like the PS4 is not mixing the rear 2 channels from a 7.1 output to a 5.1 output. This could be intentional, but im sure a decent receiver will automatically down mix the missing channels into your rear side speakers.
I can't imagine it being intentional. To me it seems like a major oversight in terms of the PS4-side down mixing, or lack thereof. Here are the projected scenarios:

Receiver supports 7.1, 7.1 speakers attached -> PS4 sends 7.1 signal, No problems
Receiver supports 7.1, 5.1 speakers attached -> PS4 sends 7.1 signal, receiver down mixes to 5.1. No problems
Receiver does not support 7.1 but accepts 7.1 input -> PS4 sends 7.1 signal, receiver down mixes to 5.1. No problems
Receiver does not support 7.1 and does not accept 7.1 input -> PS4 cuts off last 2 channels rather than down mixing properly, sends 5.1 signal with missing channels. Problems.
Can't receivers be set to downmix from 7.1 to 5.1?
Apparently not all of them, which seems to be the problem. The PS4 doesn't seem to account for these.
 

LilJoka

Member
I can't imagine it being intentional. To me it seems like a major oversight in terms of the PS4-side down mixing, or lack thereof. Here are the projected scenarios:

Receiver supports 7.1, 7.1 speakers attached -> PS4 sends 7.1 signal, No problems
Receiver supports 7.1, 5.1 speakers attached -> PS4 sends 7.1 signal, receiver down mixes to 5.1. No problems
Receiver does not support 7.1 but accepts 7.1 input -> PS4 sends 7.1 signal, receiver down mixes to 5.1. No problems
Receiver does not support 7.1 and does not accept 7.1 input -> PS4 cuts off last 2 channels rather than down mixing properly, sends 5.1 signal with missing channels. Problems.

Ah didnt think about last one, thought you meant a 7.1 receiver with 5.1 speaker setup.
But yes, seems like an issue on the PS4 side then if they dont even have a 5.1 output option, sounds like they had trouble downmixing the rear into the side speakers. Hopefully they fix that in an update.

And yes, ive not seen an option on my Yamaha RX-A1010 reciever to downmix LPCM 7.1 or even DTS-HD 7.1 to 5.1, i beleive it does it automatically, but never tested as ive never had a source that didnt allow me to output 5.1.
 

Minions

Member
Seems like it is an issue with older receivers. Most in the past 3-5 years will properly covert 7.1 to 5.1. Sucks, but I wonder what percentage of receivers this actually affects.
 

Awntawn

Member
Seems like it is an issue with older receivers. Most in the past 3-5 years will properly covert 7.1 to 5.1. Sucks, but I wonder what percentage of receivers this actually affects.
Unfortunately, I fear that it's in that uncomfortable grey area between big enough that it needs to be fixed, and not big enough to put any pressure on them to actually do anything about it.

Reminds me of the PS3 1080i TV issue where the PS3 couldn't upscale and would only output 720p games in 480p on TVs that supported 1080i/1080p but not 720p. Although this seems like a much easier fix.

I updated the OP a little bit, maybe I'll try tweeting it to Yoshida or something
 

NekoFever

Member
Mmm, this topic made me go check my PS3 and my receiver. And know I don't know what to do. :lol

My receiver supports 7.1, but I have a 5.1 configuration. If I the the PS3 on "Auto", it will select all the 7.1 options, and if I play a game (I used TLOU) the receiver tells me that is outputting 7.1 sound... If I deselect all the 7.1 option, leaving the LPCM 5.1 and the others, I'll get strange results. In LPCM 5,1 the receiver tells me its now outputting multichannel Pro Logic IIX Cinema, DTS is DTS, Dolby Digital 5.1 is Dolby Digital and Pro Logic II is just Pro Logic II (not multichannel altough it sounds like it is?).
With a BluRay, which I guess doesn't support 7.1 audio, si telling me multichannel Pro Logic IIX Cinema.

What do I do gaf.

By looking at the istruction manual, there is a table, "Input Signal > Surround mode". To "LPCM multi channel" correspond both Multichannel + Pro Logic IIX and Multichannel 7.1... So I guess I'm still hearing LPCM 5.1 audio, right?

Pro Logic IIx takes a 5.1 signal and converts it to 6.1 or 7.1, and Pro Logic II is the older system for making a surround signal (5.0) from a stereo or mono source. You're not losing anything if your receiver is applying it but you can probably turn it off if you want to, like how you can force a stereo signal to play in stereo rather than fake surround. How you do that depends on your model of receiver.
 

burgerdog

Member
Unfortunately, I fear that it's in that uncomfortable grey area between big enough that it needs to be fixed, and not big enough to put any pressure on them to actually do anything about it.

Reminds me of the PS3 1080i TV issue where the PS3 couldn't upscale and would only output 720p games in 480p on TVs that supported 1080i/1080p but not 720p. Although this seems like a much easier fix.

I updated the OP a little bit, maybe I'll try tweeting it to Yoshida or something

That reminds me of Alex Ward's(I think) "almost HDTV" comment when they patched burnout to upscale to 1080i.
 

LegoDad

Member
I submitted this as another ticket separate from the other issues to hopefully bring more light to the situation.
 

TheGrue

Member
I have a Denon receiver that is capable of outputting 7.1, but I only have a 5.1 setup. If I put it on LPCM, the whole system is very quiet and I have to turn it up super loud to get decent sound in the front and rear speakers. If I look at the front panel, it seems to indicate that it is taking in 7.1 and outputting 5.1, but the sound is just so quiet. I turn it to DTS or Dolby on the PS4 and the sound is much better. I don't have to turn it up very much and can hear things great in the front and rear speakers.
 

TheGrue

Member
Actually, turns out there was a better way for me to fix this that I found out about in the 1.7 thread. If you select HDMI again as the Audio Output, it tells you that it detected a 7.1 capable system but then lets you check a box to force 5.1. So I was able to change back to LPCM doing this and have it be in 5.1.
 
I have a PS4 and Samsung HT-C6930W (7.1 receiver with 7.1 speakers attached), but my PS4 outputs 5.1 only. There is no option to select 7.1. My PS4 has 1.75 firmware installed and I use HDMI/LPCM audio.

TLOU Remastered doesn't allow me to select 7.1 either. What's strange is that when I turn on my Sony Wireless 7.1 headset, it switches to 7.1 automatically.

Can someone help me?
 

RedAssedApe

Banned
Sorry to bump this post. But prior to 2.0 wasn't there an option in audio settings to force 5.1? I can't find it anymore. Or is it doing everything automatically now and should be a non-issue?
 

Riptwo

Member
You can find the 5.1 option by re-selecting your audio output (I.e HDMI). It appears after you choose the output type.
 
I hate that Sony went full on simple with the OS settings as compared to PS3. If people want to do auto then let them, but give the rest of us options.
 
I hate that Sony went full on simple with the OS settings as compared to PS3. If people want to do auto then let them, but give the rest of us options.
Agreed. I understand the "appeal" of having a dumbed-down UI for casuals, but it wouldn't hurt to also have manual/advanced options.

Just imagine if DHCP was the only option to set up your network connection and there was no static IP setting. :\
 
If anyone's interested, Dr. HDMI has solved my audio woes. Now I'm able to have 7.1 LPCM at all times.

It's not that simple/plug'n'play though, since I had to make a custom EDID profile.

Still though, the PS4 should be able to support manual audio settings (like the PS3 does)...
 
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