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The Cowboy · Jun 13, 2014

Major Edit.
Turns out this isn't just for the UK, but for all 28 EU member states.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-655_en.htm?locale=en
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jun/13/consumer-rights-shakeup-online-shoppers-protection
---
I hope this is OK to post (i think it should be).

Just thought i would post about this as i can't seem to find any place posting about it, as some may or may not no most places don't actually have proper sales laws covering digital content purchases (online game downloads, disk based games etc), this changed for all 28 EU member states today. Despite what some may have thought, previous legislation for most places in the EU didn't cover non tangible goods (digital goods) and as such sales laws on things purchased online weren't covered - today this changed with the new Consumer Rights Legislations coming into effect,

Please read below for information on digital contents laws that are now in effect.
http://discuss.bis.gov.uk/consumerr...r-the-draft-bill-when-buying-digital-content/
http://www.twobirds.com/en/news/articles/2014/uk/upcoming-changes-to-consumer-rights-legislation
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-contracts-regulations

Rights and remedies digital content.

Under the current law there is potentially a wide discrepancy in the treatment of digital content, depending on whether it is downloaded or provided in tangible form. The Bill differentiates digital content from goods and services, and sets out a separate regime of rights and remedies. These will apply both to paid-for content (including where paid for with 'virtual' currencies) and content that is provided free with paid for goods, services or other digital content.

The Bill proposes that certain terms should be implied in any contract with a consumer for the supply of digital content, including:
it is of satisfactory quality
it is fit for a particular purpose notified in advance by the consumer
it meets any given description
the trader has the right to supply the content.

If digital content does not satisfy these requirements, a consumer will not have the right to reject it but instead will have:
the right to repair or replacement of the content (although, as with the rules for goods, this right is subject to proportionality qualifications to take into account the value and significance of the digital content compared to the costs to repair or replace it). Unlike with the rules on goods, the trader is not limited to one attempt to repair or replace the content, provided it can do so within a reasonable time and without causing significant inconvenience to the consumer;

the right to a price reduction of an appropriate amount up to the full price paid if repair or replacement is not possible, or the trader has failed to repair or replace the content within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience; or

the right of a refund, but only in cases where the trader is in breach of the statutory warranty that it has the right to provide the content.

The Bill also contains an additional compensation mechanism where digital content causes damage to a device or other digital content owned by a consumer (e.g. through a virus). If that damage would not have occurred had reasonable care and skill been exercised by the trader in the provision of the digital content, the trader must either repair the damage (within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience) or failing that pay compensation - this payment would be required to cover the cost of replacing the device and/or any digital content that is damaged.

The main part to read in regards to services such as Steam/Origin or any other digital download provider is bolded, as it explains with a buggy/faulty game you aren't immediately eligible for a refund but you are covered in other ways and things do move onto refunds over time (if things aren't fixed in the end).

So EU people, we are now covered...

The Cowboy · Jun 13, 2014

WraithBringer said:
And this article is up at 4am in Britain.

... Hmm, so am I..

Insomnia matey, i just came across it whilst browsing and wanted something to do - if needs be I'll bumpy it up tomorrow at a more appropriate time

The Cowboy · Jun 13, 2014

WraithBringer said:
I wonder if that means they'll patch my digital copy of PayDay 2 so I don't disconnect from every game with my perfectly fine and stable internet connection??

My guess is it would likely only cover things purchased from today onwards (like i said, just guessing), unfortunately it doesn't quite make it clear if purchases before the date are covered.

Regardless, its certainly going to be interesting when someone tries to use these new rules on a DD game provider ala Steam/Origin.

Karthaugh · Jun 13, 2014

Not so much a case of being up at 5 am, as it is of going to bed at 8 am xD.

OT: good stuff, been looking through it and it seems fairly reasonable, happy we have this!

iMax · Jun 13, 2014

Does this mean I can get a refund for Battlefield 4?

cjp · Jun 13, 2014

iMax said:
Does this mean I can get a refund for Battlefield 4?

Not sure, as the game would have been bought before the legislation came into being?

I'd still advise you to go for it though, I've been arguing with Playstation for a good 3 months now regarding a refund and I won't give in.

Skele7on · Jun 13, 2014

iMax said:
Does this mean I can get a refund for Battlefield 4?

welp good luck hardline.....

figadapaura · Jun 13, 2014

Now this makes going all digital a little easier to stomach. Prices still need to be sorted out though.

Sickbean · Jun 13, 2014

UK legislation doing some good for a change. Nice.

LordBaztion · Jun 13, 2014

Games being released lately in the UK incoming?
So, I have a 10% buggy game (to give some random number) and I plan to release during the most important week of holidays but, to avoid problems with UK regulation, I preffer to wait for all patches to be in order before the release in this specific territory.

The Cowboy · Jun 13, 2014

iMax said:
Does this mean I can get a refund for Battlefield 4?

As said, most times rules like these apply for purchases made from the date the law came into effect and not before, with the issues BF4 had/has if it had been purchased today and the issues it had/has remained in place weeks from now it would indeed be eligible easily for the 1st 2 options (a replacement or a price reduction/partial refund up to the full amount).

You could give it a shot via support to see what you can get regardless of your purchase date, explain to support about the new laws that came into effect and see what you can get (its not like they could deny the BF4 issues - they're pretty well known).

I would try because, a few weeks ago when Titanfall removed the CTF/Pilot Hunter option from the PC version of the game i contacted support (before these rules came into effect) and argued that it was misspelling a product as it was now changed from what i purchased (as it had removed the game mode i bought the game for), i got offered option 1 (a replacement) and was allowed to take any EA game of the store (even pre-orders) and also to keep Ttitanfall- as such i now own PvZ:GW Digital Deluxe edition.

Dredd97 · Jun 13, 2014

ooooh and on Friday the 13th too...

lol

frankie_baby · Jun 13, 2014

iMax said:
Does this mean I can get a refund for Battlefield 4?

No but anyone that buys it now probably could

Miles Quaritch · Jun 13, 2014

Fantastic news, but I'm sure there's more than a few loopholes for publishers/developers to abuse.

The Cowboy · Jun 13, 2014

Miles Quaritch said:
Fantastic news, but I'm sure there's more than a few loopholes for publishers/developers to abuse.

Most likely, its just nice to have some actual laws written in that cover digital content to at least give DD buyers a chance at refunds/replacements (as said, before today there wasn't any at all) - its only taken years and years

.

I'm gonna find it pretty interesting to see how many gaming news/review sites post articles about this change, its actually a hugely significant change and so far i haven't seen any.

Gipsy Danger · Jun 13, 2014

LordBaztion said:
Games being released lately in the UK incoming?
So, I have a 10% buggy game (to give some random number) and I plan to release during the most important week of holidays but, to avoid problems with UK regulation, I preffer to wait for all patches to be in order before the release in this specific territory.

Doesn't all of this also apply to physical products though? And game's come out on time at retail so I can't imagine this being the case. It just means that consumers can now exercise their right to companies providing sufficient quality in their products. I would imagine.

The Cowboy · Jun 13, 2014

Gipsy Danger said:
Doesn't all of this also apply to physical products though? And game's come out on time at retail so I can't imagine this being the case. It just means that consumers can now exercise their right to companies providing sufficient quality in their products. I would imagine.

As weird as this sounds, before the rule change even disk based games weren't properly covered. When it came to a disk based game only the disk itself and the box it came in was covered and not the digital content on the disk.

So if the game was buggy or had issues it wasn't actually covered in the UK on the old rules, however if the disk was scratched/damaged or the box was it was covered in the UK by the old rules.
-
Reading the new rules again, i really like the bottom one - in that if digital content damages other parts of your system (be it hardware or software) via bugs/viruses, the provider of the content that did it now has to compensate you for it.

Miles Quaritch · Jun 13, 2014

The Cowboy said:
Most likely, its just nice to have some actual laws written in that cover digital content to at least give DD buyers a chance at refunds/replacements (as said, before today there wasn't any at all) - its only taken years and years .

I'm gonna find it pretty interesting to see how many gaming news/review sites post articles about this change, its actually a hugely significant change and so far i haven't seen any.

Yeah, it's a good step in the right direction and I'm definitely happy to see some movement on addressing digital content and consumer rights.

I just hope it stands up when people start to demand refunds, etc. I guess we'll find out soon enough, shouldn't be too long until someone tries to get a refund, etc.

Starwolf_UK · Jun 13, 2014

There was something on the today program (Radio 4) regarding a 14 day cool-off period (unless you consent to immediate delivery and break this). Was that referring to this or something that already exists.

In any case for the past few weeks( at least) on Nintendo services whenever you make a purchase a prompt comes up along the lines of "I give consent that purchases are non-refundable" (don't remember exact wording).

I'd imagine this counts as a loophole but for how long?

The Cowboy · Jun 13, 2014

Starwolf_UK said:
There was something on the today program (Radio 4) regarding a 14 day cool-off period (unless you consent to immediate delivery and break this). Was that referring to this or something that already exists.

In any case for the past few weeks( at least) on Nintendo services whenever you make a purchase a prompt comes up along the lines of "I give consent that purchases are non-refundable" (don't remember exact wording).

I'd imagine this counts as a loophole but for how long?

Yeah the cooling off period is part of this, so for example if you bought a game via Steam/Origin and didn't start the download (or you bought a sealed game in a store) your covered for 14 days, as soon as you start the download (or open the sealed game) your agreeing to waive the 14 day cooling off period.

•For distance and off-premises contracts, the requirements for the consumer's cancellation right will be different dependent upon whether the content is downloaded or provided on a tangible medium. If the content is downloaded, the Regulations provide that the trader must obtain the express consent from the consumer to waive the cancellation right. If this consent is not obtained, the trader should not enable the consumer to download the software until the end of the 14 day cooling-off period. If the software is provided on a CD or other tangible medium the cancellation period usually ends at the end of 14 days after the day on which the goods come into the physical possession of the consumer. However, there is an exemption which applies to contracts for the supply of sealed content (such as audio or video recordings or computer software). Here, the cancellation right will be lost if the consumer unseals the goods after delivery.

Cancelling digital downloads.
The Consumer Contracts Regulations contain specific provisions for digital content.
Retailers mustn’t supply digital content, such as music or software downloads, within the 14 day cancellation period, unless the consumer has given their express consent to this happening.
The consumer must also acknowledge that once the download starts they will lose their right to cancel.
If a consumer doesn’t give their consent, they have to wait until the cancellation period has ended before they can download the digital content.
This is to ensure the digital content is what you want before downloading it.

As for Nintendo stating "purchases are non refundable" before today that was fine, now however its not - no matter what they say, until you begin actually downloading the content your covered as rules like these can't override your statutory rights.

Dangoesforth · Jun 13, 2014

The law governing most goods before was set up under the Sale of Goods Act 1979, which covered sale of description and quality. Good to see that digital rights are covered, but I think we will have to wait for the first case, (and it will have to be a big one as the cost of bringing a case to court is so high) so that there is a precedent for Steam, PSN and XBL to follow as to what an appropriate remedy will be.
There is a large scope of what is appropriate and generally it will be small.
This would have been useful if it arose just before that Zombie game came out on steam last year.

Delusibeta · Jun 13, 2014

Gipsy Danger said:
Doesn't all of this also apply to physical products though? And game's come out on time at retail so I can't imagine this being the case. It just means that consumers can now exercise their right to companies providing sufficient quality in their products. I would imagine.

As The Cowboy pointed out, the old rules only applied to the physical product (i.e. literally just the disc/box, and not what's on the disc). The new rules applies that what's on the disc in addition to the state of the disc itself.

Nilaul · Jun 13, 2014

cjp said:
Not sure, as the game would have been bought before the legislation came into being?

I'd still advise you to go for it though, I've been arguing with Playstation for a good 3 months now regarding a refund and I won't give in.

Try again; say this time its the law and quote the law and then report back to us.

Bojanglez · Jun 13, 2014

This is great news. I was recently involved in a dispute with Sony Entertainment Network over Music Unlimited subscription that they had wrongly taken payment for (based on their product description). Whilst accepting that the product description was misleading they refused to refund and just kept pointing to their terms and conditions (which did not support their argument).

The problem was because this legislation didn't exist at that time I was completely at their discretion. It seemed that if I lived in Germany I would have been entitled to a refund.

Regardless of the law I was disgusted by the tone and handling of the situation by Sony's customer support. I don't know how any company intends to build a loyal digital consumer market when they are so obnoxious to deal with. I have spend hundreds of £s on SEN over the last couple of years, but they have made it very hard for me to justify doing so any more.

They should look at Amazon, their customer support is spot on they start every conversation with trying to satisfy the customer, not actively antagonise them.

/rant

Nilaul · Jun 13, 2014

Starwolf_UK said:
There was something on the today program (Radio 4) regarding a 14 day cool-off period (unless you consent to immediate delivery and break this). Was that referring to this or something that already exists.

In any case for the past few weeks( at least) on Nintendo services whenever you make a purchase a prompt comes up along the lines of "I give consent that purchases are non-refundable" (don't remember exact wording).

I'd imagine this counts as a loophole but for how long?

I suppose even if you agree but the game is glitched all they way to hell and beyond they will have to refund it upon request.

I kinda view that consent as a no exchange or change of mind policy, but I don't think it would override the refund if broken rule.

Bojanglez · Jun 13, 2014

cjp said:
Not sure, as the game would have been bought before the legislation came into being?

I'd still advise you to go for it though, I've been arguing with Playstation for a good 3 months now regarding a refund and I won't give in.

I feel your pain. My dispute with them was only over a £5.99 payment they took without my permission. They would not budge, no matter how clear I was showing them that the wording on their website was completely misrepresentative. It is impossible to speak to an intelligent human at SEN/Playstation billing support.

I took solace in the fact that my numerous email exchanges with them probably cost them as a company far more than the £5.99 I was requesting to be refunded.

I have had to deal with them 3 times now for the following reasons:

Movie I purchased didn't work on my PS4
Unsolicited payment taken for Music Unlimited
Watchdogs purchase didn't unlock at launch

I couldn't have had a worse customer experience if I tried, impossible to speak to a human, constantly fobbed off by email. The mere mention of a refund sends them running and hiding behind their T&Cs.

The Cowboy · Jun 13, 2014

I've just checked every gaming site (CVG, IGN etc) and not 1 has a story on this, its really quite surprising. It may not be considered big for some people (those not in the UK) but this is a heck of a landmark in regulations for digital content in the UK, for the 1st time ever in the UK games buyers (be they disk based or digital store based) have proper consumer rights regarding buggy/broken games and getting money back/compensation/replacement games.

You'd think games sites would be wanting to let all UK gamers know about this ASAP, hopefully some stories appear soon.

Nevasleep · Jun 13, 2014

Hmmmm I think publishers have a way out with that reasonable time to repair....the sim city launch for example.
It would take somebody going to court to set a precedent for what is a reasonable timescale?

Samurai_Heart · Jun 13, 2014

Is this why all the purchases from Nintendo eShop, in the UK at least, asks you to agree that your statutory rights are void if you are buying =/

The Cowboy · Jun 13, 2014

Nevasleep said:
Hmmmm I think publishers have a way out with that reasonable time to repair....the sim city launch for example.
It would take somebody going to court to set a precedent for what is a reasonable timescale?

In any refund/replacement policy "reasonable time" is usually considered what a normal average unbiased person would consider reasonable, i would recon in games to fix major bugs it would likely be a few weeks maybe perhaps a month or 2.

I don't think any replacement/refund request would ever end up in court, as you say a precedent would be set and i would wager no DD store would ever want one in place dictating an exact "you have 2 weeks" (for example) to fix the game.

Samurai_Heart said:
Is this why all the purchases from Nintendo eShop, in the UK at least, asks you to agree that your statutory rights are void if you are buying =/

This was likely for the old rules (as before today you didn't really have any rights at all), with these new rules they can't make you sign away your statuary rights on faulty products after you download your game, no matter what they say at the start regarding signing away your right- if the product you buy is faulty, you still have these rights in place.

iMax · Jun 13, 2014

Samurai_Heart said:
Is this why all the purchases from Nintendo eShop, in the UK at least, asks you to agree that your statutory rights are void if you are buying =/

The Cowboy said:
Pretty much yes (as before today you didn't really have any at all), with these new rules they can't make you sign away your statuary rights on faulty products after you download, no matter what they say at the start regarding signing away your right- if the product you buy is faulty, you still have these rights in place.

I'm pretty certain it's impossible for someone to 'sign away' their statutory rights. That's why they're statutory.

The Cowboy · Jun 13, 2014

iMax said:
I'm pretty certain it's impossible for someone to 'sign away' their statutory rights. That's why they're statutory.

Correct, in fact its illegal to tell people they are signing away statutory rights to refunds on things like faulty products etc.

As said in my post (i slightly adjusted the start), the reason they could get away with this before was because digital goods had no rights in place, as of today if Nintendo carry on telling people they are signing away their statutory rights and they don't follow these rules in regards to faulty products - they could get into some big trouble.

They can still tell people "as soon as you download the game, you wave your statutory rights to a refund on a non faulty product" (the new laws do state this - you open your game or download it = no refund if not faulty), but they can't tell people "as soon as you download the game, you wave your statutory rights to a refund no matter what" because faulty products are still covered.

Samurai_Heart · Jun 13, 2014

Ah that's good to know, at least anything I've downloaded hasn't been faulty as far as I know. But good to know that we're covered, by law, on them.

The Cowboy · Jun 13, 2014

Made a change to the title (if a mod reads this, could you change the main title please?) and the 1st post, this isn't just the UK, its the entire EU that now has these rules - so better rules for even more people

.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jun/13/consumer-rights-shakeup-online-shoppers-protection

IvorB · Jun 13, 2014

This is great. Consumer protection is pretty strong in UK already but many people do not take advantage of it.

Gipsy Danger · Jun 13, 2014

The Cowboy said:
Made a change to the title (if a mod reads this, could you change the main title please?) and the 1st post, this isn't just the UK, its the entire EU that now has these rules - so better rules for even more people .

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jun/13/consumer-rights-shakeup-online-shoppers-protection

EU master race!

Please don't vote Scottish Independence. I like the EU

VibratingDonkey · Jun 13, 2014

Will be interesting to see how this affects things in practice.

PairOfFilthySocks · Jun 13, 2014

I wonder what this means for early access games?

Yoday · Jun 14, 2014

The Cowboy said:
Yeah the cooling off period is part of this, so for example if you bought a game via Steam/Origin and didn't start the download (or you bought a sealed game in a store) your covered for 14 days, as soon as you start the download (or open the sealed game) your agreeing to waive the 14 day cooling off period.

As for Nintendo stating "purchases are non refundable" before today that was fine, now however its not - no matter what they say, until you begin actually downloading the content your covered as rules like these can't override your statutory rights.

This would explain the major change in the description of games that you can pre-order on PSN. It now says "CANCELLATIONS AND REFUNDS ARE NOT AVAILABLE EXCEPT WHERE REQUIRED BY LAW". This must be in reference to the new EU laws. If only the US regulators cared about consumer rights.

The Cowboy · Jun 14, 2014

PairOfFilthySocks said:
I wonder what this means for early access games?

Interesting question, with early access before (before the new rules) they no longer had to offer refunds at the point of purchase (ala regular pre-orders), despite effectively being alpha/beta access while you wait for the full game they are considered fully released (on regular pre-orders with a beta access you could still refund the pre-order because they aren't considered fully released).

Now (with the new rules) however it does pose an interesting issue with early access, they are usually very buggy along with being unfinished so it will be interesting to see how these rules effect them, as the rules state they are allowed a "reasonable time" to fix the game (with more than one attempt) and that reasonable time is usually what a regular non biased person would consider reasonable.

From interpretation of the new rules (and as statutory rights can't be overwritten on faulty goods) you should still be able to request a replacement/partial refund on the game if its buggy after a "reasonable time", so it will be interesting to see what happens if someone goes for it on an early access game.

zmihaie · Jun 14, 2014

about god damn time! "free to play" will get hit hard - fuck yeah!

Skyzard · Jun 14, 2014

Does it cover game services going down after X years in any way?

Servers/DRM.

Stike · Jun 15, 2014

Skyzard said:
Does it cover game services going down after X years in any way?

Servers/DRM.

Very good question.

This is my biggest problem with the current online monetization.
If the provider disables the game after time X, it is not a product that you "purchase" (that you can use forever) but rather a rental or such...

dr_octagon · Jun 21, 2014

This is good news for consumers because (as long as you don't download / install a game) there is parity with physical goods. Steam won't be able to say fuck you when you want to return something and it's not used. Your cancellation rights aren't waived, regardless of what's written or said.

I don't think there will be a guarantee for a server to stay active for more than a few years (or what's considered reasonable). It may also depend on other factors such as the game being online only, how it's advertised, free to play or whether you purchase an online component. Something like Sim City, where you couldn't play due to server issues would probably be covered because you pay to play online (and it's advertised as having online play) and it was soon after launch.

Synless · Jun 21, 2014

All this means is you guys are getting games dead last.

Heavy's Sandvich · Jun 21, 2014

I argued the sales of goods act in trying to get a refund on battlefield 4.

Very cursory look seems like it echoes what's in that already.

malcher · Jun 21, 2014

Does it mean EA will have to finally fix the FIFA (FUT mode) servers? Even though the game may be bought physically, that particular game mode is all about online. Will this cover the situations where EA just refuses to take care of online problems?

The Cowboy · Jun 21, 2014

Synless said:
All this means is you guys are getting games dead last.

Things will remain as they are now, no way would games publishers increase the current time to release games for the entire EU. And even if they did, this would be a good thing IMO - I'd rather have a non buggy (or less buggy) game released later, than a very buggy game released earlier.

malcher said:
Does it mean EA will have to finally fix the FIFA (FUT mode) servers? Even though the game may be bought physically, that particular game mode is all about online. Will this cover the situations where EA just refuses to take care of online problems?

From reading the UK version of the rules, if the game doesn't work as advertised you have grounds to request a repair or a replacement if they don't fix the game within a reasonable timeframe (they don't get to decide how much this timeframe is), you'd also be able to demand a price reduction up to the full amount (basically partial to full refund).

Specifiably with the games issues, it wouldn't meet these requirements - •it is of satisfactory quality (it isn't) •it is fit for a particular purpose notified in advance by the consumer (you can't play a mode properly) •it meets any given description (again, a mode can't be played properly).

I did it with Titanfall myself just before the new rules got put into effect properly (I never said they hadn't came in yet), in doing so I got to replace my game with any other EA game on Origin and got the Digital Deluxe edition of Plant's vs Zombies Garden Warfare.

Pancakes R Us · Jun 21, 2014

Hah, I want to see someone take EA to town for the next time they release buggy shit like Battlefield 4. Refund, please.

kyser73 · Jun 21, 2014

Be interesting to see what happens if something like a Windows or iOS goes wrong, or something like Apple Maps happens again.

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