Pancakes R Us
Member
Apples Maps is free. Not sure what would happen there, you have other options.
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UK: Digital Content Consumer Rights Legislation comes in effect from TODAY.
- Thread starter The Cowboy
- Start date
dr_octagon
Banned
Digital goods weren't fully covered, even though it should have applied (a physical copy probably would have been easier to get a refund for). But they've recognised and fixed the gap that existed and it's good news for customers.
No it won't and it applies to all companies selling digital goods. Why shouldn't games be treated like other consumer goods? And unlike Apple (for example), there is no goodwill or good customer service provided with some services like Steam. In those situations, consumer protection is even more important because people should have confidence in exercising their rights (even if they are told they do not apply).
Edit - And like The Cowboy said, if it means a better release for Europe, that's a good thing because people should not pay for a broken game
thesuperfunk
Member
Hopefully this will spice things up a bit.
I was thinking about the section about failed software causing damage or material loss - a failed maps app could cause such a situation.
Wasn't there an iOS or PS FW update that bricked a few phones or consoles a while back?
Chû Totoro
Member
edit : seems that DLC and F2P are not exactly the type of digital products shit practices that this law covers... sad but at least a broken game like BF 4 won't be sold anymore
The Cowboy
Member
A reasonable time in terms such as is generally what a non biased reasonable person would consider OK, this isn't really a flaw and is a common thing in sales laws when dealing with fixing faults etc (as you can't really have a blanket timeframe to fix over different products).
I'd say (at least in the UK), a reasonable time would be considered a few weeks to perhaps a month (perhaps even 2 in the case of digital games), the only way a company themselves would be able to determine a timeframe for "reasonable" would be to let it go to court - this is something no company would want as the last thing they need is a legal precedent stating (for example) they only have 14 days exactly to fix something before they need to issue replacements/refunds.
93xfan
Banned
Haha, so true!
Someone I follow on Twitter was talking about Drakengard 3 today, it piqued my interest so I went to research it. I found out that it was a digital only release in Europe but that some of the DLC was broken. I remembered there being something about a new law about that sort of thing and I came across this website which goes into more detail about the UK implementation.
So it seems like the UK version at least would apply to DLC as well as the main product itself.
So it seems like the UK version at least would apply to DLC as well as the main product itself.
Only if it wasn't mentioned in the description that it's really buggy, I think? So for example if it's labelled as Early Access you probably wouldn't get a refund.
EDIT: also obviously I am not a lawyer so do not take my advice as gospel
dr_octagon
Banned
It depends. They would have the opportunity to fix it or provide an alternative / working version. You can always ask for a refund and it would probably be the quickest solution but it's not the only option.
So BF4 would fall under this then!~
How would they replace it?
The article doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
So if a game sucks, the company will try fix it or replace it? Then they can return some of the money? Or they can return all of the money?
I'm guessing Valve can't replace a game. Either they'll give you a refund or do nothing.
The article doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
So if a game sucks, the company will try fix it or replace it? Then they can return some of the money? Or they can return all of the money?
I'm guessing Valve can't replace a game. Either they'll give you a refund or do nothing.
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
"This legislation is just another step towards Obama's socialist vision for America where job creators are stifled in promoting the recovery of our economy and where consumers will be forced to pay more. Jesus. 9/11. Benghazi. Obamacare. God bless America."
dr_octagon
Banned
If a game doesn't work down the line or there are issues with online mode, a full refund may not be offered. There is no fixed answer because it depends on the game, the issue, price paid etc.
A refund is probably the quickest approach (if they offer credit / alternative game - someone may take that instead). The point is that they are given a chance to sort out the problem (which may not be immediately) but this won't compromise your rights. You can always argue that a full refund is the only option if they refuse (eg. you can't play the game from the outset and there's no fix after 2 weeks).
The Cowboy
Member
As it states in the rules, not exactly - but it can lead to something similar. A strait up refund is only applied if the product was not meant to be sold to you (see the 3rd bolded rule), however due to rule 1 and 2 you can get it replaced (likely with another game) or get a price reduction up to the full amount, the price reduction is basically a refund in all but name as if you got a price reduction of 100% you'd get all your money back.
Yes and no, they can offer you an amount BUT you don't have to accept that amount, you can argue that it isn't enough if you don't think it is. This is where it becomes tricky though (as with any faulty/refunding sales laws), the only true way to determine the correct amount is via a court order, BUT most companies will never really want this to happen as any court order would set a legal precedent and could cause them a massive issue - unfortunately its very hard for any sales laws to put in set amounts as all cases are different, and you can't really blanket statement everything under 1 rule of you need to refund 75% (an example) because in some cases it would be blatantly unfair to either side.
As my earlier example showed with Titanfall, despite the laws not being fully in effect I argued that the game I purchased was no longer the product I had (this was at the time they removed CTF and PH playlists) as 2 of the modes I bought the game for where basically gone (in effect under these laws, it was no longer of satisfactory quality due to removed content - this is what I stated to EA). EA agreed with me after I argued my case with them (it took a week via 2 chats and 1 email) and they offered me any EA game on the store as a replacement (bolded rule 1), for this replacement I was allowed anything at all even pre-orders and digital deluxe versions, as such I took the DD version of PvZ GW.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Doesn't mean anything. UK law over rides any kind of EULA type bullshit. No company can declare your rights void, the only case where there may be exceptions made is for Steam early access where the buyer knowingly purchases an unfinished product. Otherwise if it is sold as a finished product Nintendo, Sony, MS and others can force you to agree to get butt-fucked every hour on the hour but it doesn't mean anything under UK law.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Yup, they typically use that BS to try and fool people into thinking they don't have any rights to a refund.
Retail stores used to do something similar where they would try to force people to the manufacturer if there was a fault, even if the product had been bought hours earlier and they had to, by law, replace the item or issue a refund.
The reason the language is couched like that is because it's based on existing consumer law regarding actual physical products. Obviously the game company can't "fix or replace" it, but the language has to be there to allow them the option.
And has done for some time but companies and strongly worded EULA's have nicely strong armed people into forgetting that. As far as UK law is concerned the only value any EULA has is for light reading while on the toilet.
BibiMaghoo
Member
Not really worth a thread, but it looks like Sony have altered the UK store for this, in order to wave a cool down period for the purchase. I had to agree to updated terms, likely to reflect this.
Not really worth a thread, but it looks like Sony have altered the UK store for this, in order to wave a cool down period for the purchase. I had to agree to updated terms, likely to reflect this.
Looks like it gets them out of following the legislation to some degree?
Should be thread-worthy.
BibiMaghoo
Member
Looks that way, though I have no knowledge of what specifically was changed in the terms, only that I have never seen that blurb before, and that it used to be just purchase on the confirm button.
Vlodril
Member
i don't think they can get out of following the legislation with that otherwise wouldn't eula's be legally binding too?
The Red Wizard
Member
Bingo. This just looks like something to catch the uninformed which seems a bit redundant because the people who know about the new legislation are likely to already know that a person can't wilfully give away the rights granted to him/her by legislation.
KoopaPoopa
Neo Member
So the thing just happened that I've laughed at other people for lots of times.
My baby got hold of the PlayStation 4 controller, I received an email thanking me for purchasing Watch Dogs Deluxe Edition, and Battlefield 4. I'm not interested in either game. I've pulled the lead out of the ps4, and there's no way either downloaded in the time that I noticed. £92! I was convinced I had the tick box checked that checked my password before purchases, I guess not.
Sony are refusing to give me a refund. What can I do?
My baby got hold of the PlayStation 4 controller, I received an email thanking me for purchasing Watch Dogs Deluxe Edition, and Battlefield 4. I'm not interested in either game. I've pulled the lead out of the ps4, and there's no way either downloaded in the time that I noticed. £92! I was convinced I had the tick box checked that checked my password before purchases, I guess not.
Sony are refusing to give me a refund. What can I do?
Bony Manifesto
Member
Other than explaining that they were bought in error and emphasising that you've neither downloaded nor played them, there's not really much you can do outside of requesting a chargeback from your bank (which will almost certainly get you permanently banned from PSN).
KoopaPoopa
Neo Member
Thanks, I'll keep trying I guess.
I was under the impression that this is included in the new legislation:
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/consumer-marketing/files/crd_arc2014_factsheet-consumer_en.pdf
I don't see how this is in their interests really. If I don't get my money back, I'm removing my card details and not buying anything else from them. I could quite easily return my PS4 too, I got it less than 14 days ago. On the other hand I could stay a customer, I have been for 20 years now.
I was under the impression that this is included in the new legislation:
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/consumer-marketing/files/crd_arc2014_factsheet-consumer_en.pdf
I don't see how this is in their interests really. If I don't get my money back, I'm removing my card details and not buying anything else from them. I could quite easily return my PS4 too, I got it less than 14 days ago. On the other hand I could stay a customer, I have been for 20 years now.
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/buy-sell-online/rights-e-commerce/index_en.htm
According to this, once the download has started, it's over. But the law was clearly made with streaming in mind, and I would say is unfair for content that you can't use until the download is complete. Your best chance now is to cry over Sony's helpdesk, or try to get a judge to agree with us. An analogous situation is that the 14 days start at the reception of the ordered good, not its shipment from the seller.
KoopaPoopa
Neo Member
Yeah, one of them is 33GB, and the other is 20GB. There's no way the first finished if they did start downloading (I'm going to turn off the router and plug the PS4 back in when I'm home to check). I'm on standard ADSL, and it was unplugged minutes after getting the email.
Nothing can supersede European rights. Member States and private companies are being fined regularly for their lack of compliance.
What you can check also is if the download process starts immediately and automatically after your payment, which would mean they don't give the consumer a chance to withdraw from their purchase, adding more weight to your legal balance. But again, that means you will have to face Sony in a tribunal, or at least threatens them to.
Can depend a bit from rule to rule. Some articles of legislation and rules can be contracted around, others can not. In the area of consumer protection though, most of the EU law (and national equivalent) cannot be damaged or lessened by contract.
Zomba13
Member
Sony won't do anything. I had something similar happen (though rather than a child it was a hacker or someone who gained unauthorised access to my PSN account) and Sony told me they won't do anything about it and they aren't obligated to refund me or investigate it. Only way is to file a charge back with your bank which will get you the money back but leave your PSN account banned (you can make another one though).
Miles Quaritch
Member
There are a number of Sony MVPs on here, ask one or more of them to elevate your complaint?
That might get some results.
That might get some results.
KoopaPoopa
Neo Member
That would be gutting. I've been a plus subscriber for years.
That's the thing, I was there day one for the PS1. I've owned every system they've made, I am a loyal customer. I have a sony phone too. This just feels harsh. They'd make that money back in not that much time at all, but it would be things that I'd actually want.
KoopaPoopa
Neo Member
Wow, I wouldn't know who to approach. If that's something that could happen though I would be incredibly grateful
Miles Quaritch
Member
There's no guarantee of results, but here's a couple MVPs that you might want to contact.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/member.php?u=49998
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/member.php?u=28993
In Service
Member
True but in this case the legistlation provides for contracting out - otherwise you would all have to wait 30 days to download software. How we would all laugh if that was the intent of the EU!
The basic rule is that a trader must not begin the supply of digital content not on a tangible medium before the end of the cancellation period, unless the consumer has consented to this and has acknowledged he will lose his cancellation right and the trader has confirmed this consent and acknowledgement to the consumer.
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