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ponpo · Feb 17, 2015

Tri-daily ISIS thread.

Pretty lengthy but really good article by Graeme Wood. Talks foundations, real religious beliefs, some solutions, and other things.

The Islamic State is no mere collection of psychopaths. It is a religious group with carefully considered beliefs, among them that it is a key agent of the coming apocalypse. Here’s what that means for its strategy—and for how to stop it.

The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.

Muslims can reject the Islamic State; nearly all do. But pretending that it isn’t actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it.

Centuries have passed since the wars of religion ceased in Europe, and since men stopped dying in large numbers because of arcane theological disputes. Hence, perhaps, the incredulity and denial with which Westerners have greeted news of the theology and practices of the Islamic State. Many refuse to believe that this group is as devout as it claims to be, or as backward-looking or apocalyptic as its actions and statements suggest.

Their skepticism is comprehensible. In the past, Westerners who accused Muslims of blindly following ancient scriptures came to deserved grief from academics—notably the late Edward Said—who pointed out that calling Muslims “ancient” was usually just another way to denigrate them. Look instead, these scholars urged, to the conditions in which these ideologies arose—the bad governance, the shifting social mores, the humiliation of living in lands valued only for their oil.

Without acknowledgment of these factors, no explanation of the rise of the Islamic State could be complete. But focusing on them to the exclusion of ideology reflects another kind of Western bias: that if religious ideology doesn’t matter much in Washington or Berlin, surely it must be equally irrelevant in Raqqa or Mosul. When a masked executioner says Allahu akbar while beheading an apostate, sometimes he’s doing so for religious reasons.

Many mainstream Muslim organizations have gone so far as to say the Islamic State is, in fact, un-Islamic. It is, of course, reassuring to know that the vast majority of Muslims have zero interest in replacing Hollywood movies with public executions as evening entertainment. But Muslims who call the Islamic State un-Islamic are typically, as the Princeton scholar Bernard Haykel, the leading expert on the group’s theology, told me, “embarrassed and politically correct, with a cotton-candy view of their own religion” that neglects “what their religion has historically and legally required.” Many denials of the Islamic State’s religious nature, he said, are rooted in an “interfaith-Christian-nonsense tradition.”

One way to un-cast the Islamic State’s spell over its adherents would be to overpower it militarily and occupy the parts of Syria and Iraq now under caliphate rule. Al‑Qaeda is ineradicable because it can survive, cockroach-like, by going underground. The Islamic State cannot. If it loses its grip on its territory in Syria and Iraq, it will cease to be a caliphate. Caliphates cannot exist as underground movements, because territorial authority is a requirement: take away its command of territory, and all those oaths of allegiance are no longer binding. Former pledges could of course continue to attack the West and behead their enemies, as freelancers. But the propaganda value of the caliphate would disappear, and with it the supposed religious duty to immigrate and serve it.

It would be facile, even exculpatory, to call the problem of the Islamic State “a problem with Islam.” The religion allows many interpretations, and Islamic State supporters are morally on the hook for the one they choose. And yet simply denouncing the Islamic State as un-Islamic can be counterproductive, especially if those who hear the message have read the holy texts and seen the endorsement of many of the caliphate’s practices written plainly within them.

Jacob · Feb 17, 2015

I saw this on The Alantic's Facebook page last night. Thought it was an interesting article but he undermines his own credibility by throwing out nonsense like "ISIS rules an area larger than the UK". At least the map accompanying the article was more accurate.

Jonnax · Feb 17, 2015

Musa Cerantonio, an Australian preacher reported to be one of the Islamic States most influential recruiters, believes it is foretold that the caliphate will sack Istanbul before it is beaten back by an army led by the anti-Messiah, whose eventual death when just a few thousand jihadists remainwill usher in the apocalypse.

It's true, for people in the west this is a completely foreign concept.

Wasteman · Feb 17, 2015

Is it a similar situation to some of the extreme Christian views of end times? The one where end times has been on horizon constantly.

Zane · Feb 17, 2015

My god, they want the entire Atlantic ocean?

BocoDragon · Feb 17, 2015

Zane said:
My god, they want the entire Atlantic ocean?

Can't take the Pacific since it's guarded by kaijus.

maquiladora · Feb 17, 2015

Zane said:
My god, they want the entire Atlantic ocean?

10/10

Rentahamster · Feb 17, 2015

Was Mel Gibson in this movie?

ponpo · Feb 17, 2015

Jonnax said:
It's true, for people in the west this is a completely foreign concept.

Yep. Comparing ISIS to Al-Qaeda based on their text interpretations just shows how much ISIS is trying to adhere to certain practices

"If al-Qaeda wanted to revive slavery, it never said so. And why would it? Silence on slavery probably reflected strategic thinking, with public sympathies in mind: when the Islamic State began enslaving people, even some of its supporters balked. Nonetheless, the caliphate has continued to embrace slavery and crucifixion without apology. “We will conquer your Rome, break your crosses, and enslave your women,” Adnani, the spokesman, promised in one of his periodic valentines to the West. “If we do not reach that time, then our children and grandchildren will reach it, and they will sell your sons as slaves at the slave market.”"

Wasteman said:
Is it a similar situation to some of the extreme Christian views of end times? The one where end times has been on horizon constantly.

If by similar situation you mean taking the religious texts too literally then I think so.

Zane said:
My god, they want the entire Atlantic ocean?

lol

fallengorn · Feb 17, 2015

BocoDragon said:
Can't take the Pacific since it's guarded by kaijus.

Let them fight.

LX_Theo · Feb 17, 2015

Zane said:
My god, they want the entire Atlantic ocean?

Give them the ocean. They can live on rafts.

xbhaskarx · Feb 17, 2015

The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.
...
Muslims can reject the Islamic State; nearly all do. But pretending that it isnt actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it.
...
But focusing on them to the exclusion of ideology reflects another kind of Western bias: that if religious ideology doesnt matter much in Washington or Berlin, surely it must be equally irrelevant in Raqqa or Mosul. When a masked executioner says Allahu akbar while beheading an apostate, sometimes hes doing so for religious reasons.
...
But Muslims who call the Islamic State un-Islamic are typically, as the Princeton scholar Bernard Haykel, the leading expert on the groups theology, told me, embarrassed and politically correct, with a cotton-candy view of their own religion that neglects what their religion has historically and legally required.

Saved for every future ISIS thread....

Damerman · Feb 17, 2015

ponpo said:
Yep. Comparing ISIS to Al-Qaeda based on their text interpretations just shows how much ISIS is trying to adhere to certain practices

"If al-Qaeda wanted to revive slavery, it never said so. And why would it? Silence on slavery probably reflected strategic thinking, with public sympathies in mind: when the Islamic State began enslaving people, even some of its supporters balked. Nonetheless, the caliphate has continued to embrace slavery and crucifixion without apology. We will conquer your Rome, break your crosses, and enslave your women, Adnani, the spokesman, promised in one of his periodic valentines to the West. If we do not reach that time, then our children and grandchildren will reach it, and they will sell your sons as slaves at the slave market."

Pyrokai · Feb 17, 2015

Zane said:
My god, they want the entire Atlantic ocean?

I paused for a moment....and then I laughed REALLY loudly.

PeskyToaster · Feb 17, 2015

Interesting. I see some posting on if Christians today are similar and I would say probably in some areas but in the West they may have similar beliefs but nothing would ever come of them. Like you wouldn't see a Christian State of Indiana and Ohio sprout up and go Biblical on some heretics. But put Christianity in a volatile region and I think similar things would happen with an extremist Christian flavor.

Stereogatari · Feb 17, 2015

Musa Cerantonio, an Australian preacher reported to be one of the Islamic States most influential recruiters, believes it is foretold that the caliphate will sack Istanbul

To repeat a Turkish internet comment mocking such claims: "They may cut off heads, but we cut off balls". I find their pipedream of invading Turkey hilarious. A wannabe Caliphate declaring Jihad on the nation that is the successor to the actual Caliphate, a nation that is historically well versed in Jihad themselves. The only thing that will be foretold in such a scenario is ISIS getting well and truly wrecked.

ponpo · Feb 17, 2015

Stereogatari said:
To repeat a Turkish internet comment mocking such claims: "They may cut off heads, but we cut off balls". I find their pipedream of invading Turkey hilarious. A wannabe Caliphate declaring Jihad on the nation that is the successor to the actual Caliphate, a nation that is historically well versed in Jihad themselves. The only thing that will be foretold in such a scenario is ISIS getting well and truly wrecked.

I guess it fits their Rome prophecies nicely.

The Prophetic narration that foretells the Dabiq battle refers to the enemy as Rome. Who Rome is, now that the pope has no army, remains a matter of debate. But Cerantonio makes a case that Rome meant the Eastern Roman empire, which had its capital in what is now Istanbul. We should think of Rome as the Republic of Turkeythe same republic that ended the last self-identified caliphate, 90 years ago. Other Islamic State sources suggest that Rome might mean any infidel army, and the Americans will do nicely.

Also lol this part. Needs a Hollywood adaptation.

After its battle in Dabiq, Cerantonio said, the caliphate will expand and sack Istanbul. Some believe it will then cover the entire Earth, but Cerantonio suggested its tide may never reach beyond the Bosporus. An anti-Messiah, known in Muslim apocalyptic literature as Dajjal, will come from the Khorasan region of eastern Iran and kill a vast number of the caliphates fighters, until just 5,000 remain, cornered in Jerusalem. Just as Dajjal prepares to finish them off, Jesusthe second-most-revered prophet in Islamwill return to Earth, spear Dajjal, and lead the Muslims to victory.

ZiZ · Feb 17, 2015

PeskyToaster said:
Interesting. I see some posting on if Christians today are similar and I would say probably in some areas but in the West they may have similar beliefs but nothing would ever come of them. Like you wouldn't see a Christian State of Indiana and Ohio sprout up and go Biblical on some heretics. But put Christianity in a volatile region and I think similar things would happen with an extremist Christian flavor.

they might if the region suffered from decades of war.

PeskyToaster · Feb 17, 2015

ZiZ said:
they might if the region suffered from decades of war.

That's what I'm saying.

ponpo · Feb 17, 2015

PeskyToaster said:
Interesting. I see some posting on if Christians today are similar and I would say probably in some areas but in the West they may have similar beliefs but nothing would ever come of them. Like you wouldn't see a Christian State of Indiana and Ohio sprout up and go Biblical on some heretics. But put Christianity in a volatile region and I think similar things would happen with an extremist Christian flavor.

ZiZ said:
they might if the region suffered from decades of war.

They might or they might not. You have Iraqi, Syrian, et al. Christians in the region. Are there calls among these communities to implement Old Testament law?

BannedEpisode · Feb 17, 2015

ponpo said:
Yep. Comparing ISIS to Al-Qaeda based on their text interpretations just shows how much ISIS is trying to adhere to certain practices

"If al-Qaeda wanted to revive slavery, it never said so. And why would it? Silence on slavery probably reflected strategic thinking, with public sympathies in mind: when the Islamic State began enslaving people, even some of its supporters balked. Nonetheless, the caliphate has continued to embrace slavery and crucifixion without apology. We will conquer your Rome, break your crosses, and enslave your women, Adnani, the spokesman, promised in one of his periodic valentines to the West. If we do not reach that time, then our children and grandchildren will reach it, and they will sell your sons as slaves at the slave market."

What the fuck.

Maninthemirror · Feb 17, 2015

xbhaskarx said:
Saved for every future ISIS thread....

Earth being flat was is also a learned interptetation by some still todays most educated as well.

Daesh have a delusion of being right. They know they are right and islamophobes who support their interpretation want them to be right. One kills, one use the killing to sideline the muslims who say islam is peaceful when they act peacefully by living peacrfully in western nations

It's like saying learned and educated creationists really think esrth came about 6000 years ago despite facts

Baraka in the White House · Feb 17, 2015

It continues to blow my mind that we've had actual ISIS defenders on this forum. Not many, but still...

jerry1594 · Feb 17, 2015

Wasteman said:
Is it a similar situation to some of the extreme Christian views of end times? The one where end times has been on horizon constantly.

I doubt it since Christians have a new date every couple years that is wrong so the apocalypse is TBA. It seems they think they will trigger the apocalypse in a more proactive way.

DonasaurusRex · Feb 17, 2015

PeskyToaster said:
Interesting. I see some posting on if Christians today are similar and I would say probably in some areas but in the West they may have similar beliefs but nothing would ever come of them. Like you wouldn't see a Christian State of Indiana and Ohio sprout up and go Biblical on some heretics. But put Christianity in a volatile region and I think similar things would happen with an extremist Christian flavor.

theres just the small issue of comparing the founders of the two theologies....one actually did ride to war and has blood on his hands and one does not. One is in contrast with what is taught from the founder when being violent, one is imitating their founder by using violence and force.

So besides the evolutionary grouping of Islam and Christianity , they aren't very similar at all except to the untrained or ignorant of what they two theologies say. They contradict in almost every important doctrinal way.

but yes they do belong in the mono theistic category....beyond that....

LegendofJoe · Feb 17, 2015

ponpo said:
Yep. Comparing ISIS to Al-Qaeda based on their text interpretations just shows how much ISIS is trying to adhere to certain practices

"If al-Qaeda wanted to revive slavery, it never said so. And why would it? Silence on slavery probably reflected strategic thinking, with public sympathies in mind: when the Islamic State began enslaving people, even some of its supporters balked. Nonetheless, the caliphate has continued to embrace slavery and crucifixion without apology. “We will conquer your Rome, break your crosses, and enslave your women,” Adnani, the spokesman, promised in one of his periodic valentines to the West. “If we do not reach that time, then our children and grandchildren will reach it, and they will sell your sons as slaves at the slave market.”"

This sounds like interesting fiction to me. This guy chose the wrong profession, he should have been a writer.

speculawyer · Feb 17, 2015

Yeah, I was reading this today. Great article. Scary stuff.

Azih · Feb 17, 2015

Huh, so the Professor in the article has appointed himself final arbiter of what Islam actually is.

Stereogatari · Feb 17, 2015

DonasaurusRex said:
theres just the small issue of comparing the founders of the two theologies....one actually did ride to war and has blood on his hands and one does not. One is in contrast with what is taught from the founder when being violent, one is imitating their founder by using violence and force.

So besides the evolutionary grouping of Islam and Christianity , they aren't very similar at all except to the untrained or ignorant of what they two theologies say. They contradict in almost every important doctrinal way.

but yes they do belong in the mono theistic category....beyond that....

The Christian text is as grim reading as the Islamic text. Can't get much more similar than that.

This Jesus was meek and Mohamad was a menance trope is getting boring. I see it repeated a lot. So fucking what? The Bible and Quran are both full of violent and illogical crap.

Christianity is the way it is because Europe went through strong Secularisation and modernisation over time organically, a luxury that the Muslim world beyond Turkey and a few other spots didn't get. Not because Jesus was a hippie and Mohamad was a warlord.

Maninthemirror · Feb 17, 2015

Azih said:
Huh, so the Professor in the article has appointed himself final arbiter of what Islam actually is.

That's how he views islam is in his view. Which makes this an Op Ed as his view not facts

speculawyer · Feb 17, 2015

Rentahamster said:
Was Mel Gibson in this movie?

Kevin Costner

speculawyer · Feb 17, 2015

Maninthemirror said:
That's how he views islam is in his view. Which makes this an op Ed

Just like every one of your posts.

Except the Professor has more credentials, education, and authority.

Azih · Feb 17, 2015

speculawyer said:
Just like every one of your posts.

Except the Professor has more credentials, education, and authority.

The Prof has no authority over what my faith is.

speculawyer · Feb 17, 2015

PeskyToaster said:
Interesting. I see some posting on if Christians today are similar and I would say probably in some areas but in the West they may have similar beliefs but nothing would ever come of them. Like you wouldn't see a Christian State of Indiana and Ohio sprout up and go Biblical on some heretics. But put Christianity in a volatile region and I think similar things would happen with an extremist Christian flavor.

Lord's Resistance Army. (Joseph Kony and his crazy gang)

Dennis · Feb 17, 2015

Stereogatari said:
The Christian text is as grim reading as the Islamic text. Can't get much more similar than that.

This Jesus was meek and Mohamad was a menance trope is getting boring. I see it repeated a lot. So fucking what? The Bible and Quran are both full of violent and illogical crap.

The New Testament - you know the one with Jesus actually in it - is a lot different than the Old Testament.

Jesus was meek according to the New Testament and Muhammed was a warlord that conquered cities according to the Quran.

Pretending that Jesus and Muhammed preached the same message is just bizarre. And I say that as an atheist.

Battersea Power Station · Feb 17, 2015

Azih said:
Huh, so the Professor in the article has appointed himself final arbiter of what Islam actually is.

source? He repeatedly says that there are many interpretation is Islam, the majority of which reject the Islamic State's view. He never says their beliefs are representative of Islam. He says that their followers are true believers, and to ignore that is to miscalculate the strategy in engaging them.

Maninthemirror · Feb 17, 2015

speculawyer said:
Just like every one of your posts.

Except the Professor has more credentials, education, and authority.

Boy you really are the flag bearer of his view and Daesh view arent you

Stereogatari · Feb 17, 2015

Dennis said:
The New Testament - you know the one with Jesus actually in it - is a lot different than the Old Testament.

Jesus was meek according to the New Testament and Muhammed was a warlord that conquered cities according to the Quran.

I admittedly have never read either Testament, but have read the Quran. I was under the impression that both testaments are crucial to Christianity? Whereas only the old is to Jews?

Dennis said:
Pretending that Jesus and Muhammed preached the same message is just bizarre. And I say that as an atheist.

I'm not saying they preached the same message, but that the fact they preached different messages isn't the reason Christianity today is less threatening than Islam. You probably missed my edit so I'll paste it here:

"Christianity is the way it is because Europe went through strong Secularisation and modernisation over time organically, a luxury that the Muslim world beyond Turkey and a few other spots didn't get. Not because Jesus was a hippie and Mohamad was a warlord."

I'm also an Atheist btw.

nilbog21 · Feb 17, 2015

Baraka in the White House said:
It continues to blow my mind that we've had actual ISIS defenders on this forum. Not many, but still...

no way lol

Maninthemirror · Feb 17, 2015

Battersea Power Station said:
source? He repeatedly says that there are many interpretation is Islam, the majority of which reject the Islamic State's view. He never says their beliefs are representative of Islam. He says that their followers are true believers, and to ignore that is to miscalculate the strategy in engaging them.

Well creationists would also call themselves true believers but do we have views from sane people saying you know maybe they could be right or giving their opinion any weight ?

speculawyer · Feb 17, 2015

Azih said:
The Prof has no authority over what my faith is.

And you have no authority over what 'Islam' is. It is different things to different people. some take things more literally than others. Some ignore parts they find inconvenient but others do not.

oneils · Feb 17, 2015

Azih said:
Huh, so the Professor in the article has appointed himself final arbiter of what Islam actually is.

Isn't he describing his understanding of isis' ideology and not Islam? Haven't read the whole article yet. Going through it now.

speculawyer · Feb 17, 2015

Maninthemirror said:
Well creationists would also call themselves true believers but do we have views from sane people saying you know maybe they could be right or giving their opinion any weight ?

So are you the new Caliphate leader? You get to decide what is right and who is sane? LOL.

Battersea Power Station · Feb 17, 2015

Maninthemirror said:
Well creationists would also call themselves true believers but do we have views from sane people saying you know maybe they could be right or giving their opinion any weight ?

It doesn't matter. This is an article on how to counter these people. If creationists ever start a violent rebellion and manage to amass thousands of followers and important territories, yes, it would help to know the root and method of their beliefs in order to stop people from joining them and to eventually defeat them.

ramuh · Feb 17, 2015

It's scary thinking about how Islam is going so backwards.

Jonnax · Feb 17, 2015

oneils said:
Isn't he describing his understanding of isis' ideology and not Islam? Haven't read the whole article yet. Going through it now.

Yeah. The professor was stating that calling ISIS unislamic is counter-productive because they are adhering to and making direct reference to the text. I don't think he read the article fully because this is a tiny part of it.

Maninthemirror · Feb 17, 2015

speculawyer said:
So are you the new Caliphate leader? You get to decide what is right and who is sane? LOL.

As I said. I have never seen any anti Daesh person ever consider their view as having any weight as you have repeatedly. I wouldn't be surprised if you view Daesh view as the islam you think is actual islam considring you consistently downplay peaceful interpretations as swept under the rug and Daesh view as having a lot of weight in their arguments. It's frankly disturbing

Khrno · Feb 17, 2015

Zane said:
My god, they want the entire Atlantic ocean?

That was my first thought when reading the title.

| Praxis | · Feb 17, 2015

Maninthemirror said:
As I said. I have never seen any anti Daesh person ever consider their view as having any weight as you have repeatedly. I wouldn't be surprised if you view Daesh view as the islam you think is actual islam considring you consistently downplay peaceful interpretations as swept under the rug and Daesh view as having a lot of weight in their arguments. It's frankly disturbing

I don't really see the problem you obviously seem to see. You're putting words and meaning to things that haven't been said, and quite frankly sound insecure.

It's a well made argument in the article and it shouldn't get people's defenses up as much as it is. The fact that it has is just an indication of a more worrying problem.

Maninthemirror · Feb 17, 2015

| Praxis | said:
I don't really see the problem you obviously seem to see. You're putting words and meaning to things that haven't been said, and quite frankly sound insecure.

It's a well made argument in the article and it shouldn't get people's defenses up as much as it is. The fact that it has is just an indication of a more worrying problem.

Oh most muslims are quite secure in their peaceful view as correct view, they are just insecure of others that a few non muslims side with Daesh interpretation as equal footing rather than trying to diminish their view as invalid thus having to constantly being seen as suspicious as do they see us as peaceful of miscreants of society

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