Self_Destructive
Member
I mean the overall negativity of change. You might end up liking these things much better in the context of the new game.
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New previews for Dark Souls II
- Thread starter ezekial45
- Start date
I mean the overall negativity of change. You might end up liking these things much better in the context of the new game.
I remember complains about movement, parry, backstab, magic, no herbs, checkpoints and no nexus.
Am I missing anything?
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
The Eurogamer preview kind of did for me, as sad as it sounds. The fact that Drangleic is less inventive and detailed than Lordran is pretty damn discouraging. Add the Videogamer 10 mins preview and It just sounds like a game that completely sold it's soul somewhere during development. Hearing someone who loved DS, say that he's basically not sure about DSII after playing it, shouldn't even happen. I mean it's freaking Souls! And yet it happened. Everything we read/heard so far, seems to point towards a less inventive game, with tons of gameplay removals/tradeoffs that don't really pay off.
And I say that as someone who put DSII as his 2nd most anticipated game of the year. I really fear, they dropped the proverbial ball on this.
Yes, you've identified differences between the games. But nothing that compares to respecs and universal FT was in either game. You could sorta say some things like that about the nexus and levels nature of demon's, but the individual levels didn't have a bunch of bonfires you could FT between.
I think respecs is what's really, really grinding my gears.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
That's just mechanical differences. Not removals or extreme modifications. The fact that you can respec means that character builds, and new playthroughs won't be nowhere near as popular as for DS, and that was a large part of the community's lifeblood.
Enemies that stops spawning means, a dead empty world after a few runs. These aren't mere differences. These are soul-crushing alterations, that significantly modify the game.
I don't think every game needs to be super accessible. I think the game being indifferent to the player's needs is fascinating and part of why DS was so great to so many people.
If you want an accessible game, you have options. Try *everywhere* to find games like that.
It happened for the transition between Demon's to Dark, as well. You still have people talking about how DkS is a disappointment. Not exactly a death sentence for the game.
Your analogy to massive multiplayer rpg's was extremely relevant to this series. Think of Dark Souls II as the 3rd expansion of a popular MMO. This is the time when they want to reach out to as many people as they can. Take that as you will.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
Hopefully that's the case. I dearly love both games, albeit I do think DkS is the better one. So I could very well think DSII's alterations are for the better. But it's very fundamentals are seemingly miles apart from it's brethren. So it's just terrifying to me. The changes from Demon's to Dark, where kind of superficial in the grand scheme of things IMO. They were as equally unforgiving and harsh in their own ways, and neither was diluted in any way. I hope this is true of DSII too and that first impressions are simply, well...wrong.
decoyplatypus
Member
Hmm. I'll need to watch the video to give the guy a fair hearing, but it's a pretty unusual reading of Demon's and Dark Souls that overlooks the stat-tweaking, loot farming, and other, traditional game elements. I mean, Demon's Souls has numbered stages with terminal boss fights. It's a pretty classic design. That's not to say the Souls games don't have great atmosphere and a number of unique features, but they're not Journey*: fans tend to praise DS and DkS for their combat as much as their progressive storytelling devices.
EDIT: in the sense that no one ever accused them of not being real games.
We haven't received a full explanation of how respec works, have we? I'll give you that even a restrictive system will still diminish character permanence compared to previous games, but the designers seem to be thinking of other ways of enticing players to play through multiple times.
The fact that certain enemies (we don't know how many yet) will not respawn after you kill them fifteen times does not mean that we're looking at "a dead empty world after a few runs." Besides, there is an item to bring them back (although we don't know exactly how that item works--or how common it is--either).
mickcenary
Member
Right there with you, Jobbs. The immediate fast-travel is an odd and potentially worrisome inclusion. So much of the joy in playing Dark Souls for the first time is venturing into the most decrepit, dangerous places and - after seemingly an eternity of heartache - finding that glorious shortcut. It's indescribably satisfying and something to truly behold in retrospect.
The only way I can see this not hurting the flow and cohesion of the world is if areas follow the same design principle as New Londo Ruins/Ariamis, i.e. only the one bonfire at the beginning of the level. That in itself brings about a lot of problems in terms of balancing and pacing, but I guess I have no choice but to trust From.
SeventhSon
Member
I've had more meaningful and entertaining anonymous interaction with other players in Demon's and Dark Souls than I ever had in Journey.
I also loved to play again with alternate characters, growing up with different specs and playstyles. This feels robbed somehow if I could just respec the same old character. There's a component to this that is really hard to explain, since no one is going to force you to use a respec item or prevent you from rerolling. It just feels wrong. Every decision should feel important to maintain the feel of the game.
Rodney McKay
Member
I feel completely the opposite actually. If you enjoy a game, just keep enjoying the game the way you want to! If you want to do a playthrough as a tank, go for it! Then do a playthrough as a mage, rouge, whatever else you were going to do if there wasn't going to be respecs.The only difference to me is that in one case the game FORCES you to play it that way, and the other case is that you as the player CHOOSES to play it that way.
If a game suffers from poor spec balancing as a result of having easy respecs (something like Borderlands 2 comes to mind at higher difficulties), or if the fast travel is the only efficient way of getting anywhere in a non-dull manner (Skyrim for example) then that would definitely suck, but I don't feel it's a fault of the feature itself, it's a fault on the developers for using them as a crutch. In Dark Souls 1 you eventually get the ability to fast travel, but because the game was designed so well around the HUB area, I rarely felt the need to use it except to return to the hub after some of the end bosses. If DS2 is still designed well to have areas loop back around and unlock shortcuts, then fast travel wont be an issue for me in it.
As long as the areas are still fun to traverse and as long as whatever build I decide to choose can still let me beat the game, Dark Souls 2 can have these features without it ever effecting me.
decoyplatypus
Member
I have too. I would never dismiss what the Souls games do on the art/atmosphere front. And I didn't intend that comment as praise of Journey (which never did it for me). I was just using it as an example of game that minimizes traditional gameplay elements in pursuit of other objectives. Unlike Journey, no one ever accused the Souls games of not being real games.
Self_Destructive
Member
Umbassa
People might think that making these changes takes away from what makes Dark Souls so good, but what if, just what if, Dark Souls 2 gives us new experiences and ideas that make the changes seem not only good, but necessary?
ENB said Dark Souls 2 was better than Demon's Souls... that leads me to believe the Lore and World are great and connected
Vaati says the game is amazing
Brandon (Oroboro) says the game is fucking amazing and his time with the game put all his fears about difficulty to rest
Many of the Soulbrant community that also got to go and play the game all said it was amazing and that after playing it the wait is harder than ever
I'm confident that Dark Souls 2 will be what Dark Souls was to Demon's Souls. To some people better, to some people worse, and to most everyone different but awesome in its own way.
Saw this and thought about all the doom and gloom in this thread regarding how the next game will turn out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZPwqK2C2Fc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZPwqK2C2Fc
This. So much this. We've all had our doubts, because naturally we're passionate about the series and want it to succeed, but gradually From and BN have done a good job of putting those fears to rest. ENB was probably my most trusted "videologger" on all things Dark Souls, so his verdict was icing on the cake.
Sometimes I get the impression that people are just fearmongering for want of anything better to do. We have this great internet thing where we can vent frustrations or bond in excitement, but if we're not careful everything can spiral out of control. All the negativity feeds off itself and people work themselves into a state over incomplete information, or even misinformation.
I would like to think that most of us are mature, sensible adults with above-average knowledge of the industry and sound reasoning for our purchasing decisions. However, sometimes it feels like people just want to get mad to prove a point, or want to hate on publishers and "what's to become of games" out of principle, when really they have very little understanding.
It's just one example, but if "Instant Fast Travel" (and everything it encompasses that has been garnered from limited knowledge about this feature at this point) goes against everything Dark Souls means to you, then that's unfortunate, but you should really consider how such a decision might be intrinsic to this new game and its new systems.
If you asked me what I wanted from a Dark Souls sequel, I'd say leave the formula alone. Don't tinker with what's not broken. Adding all this fast travel and respeccing and voice chat is very much tinkering with what's not broken. Could it still turn out to be awesome? Yes, and it probably is awesome, but cmon. When you tinker with and change core, defining things about the game it's pretty damn natural as a hardcore fan to be pretty nervous.
The_Hitcher89
Member
By universal fast-travel, do you guys mean I could travel to any bonfire in the game from the beginning, whether I've been there before or not?
99% you can travel in any bonfire you've already finded.
Self_Destructive
Member
Only after you've lit them. You still have to explore the world and find the bonfires.
As one hardcore fan to another, I respect you and your concerns.
But just to address these things that keep coming up:
1. Fast Travel
We're assuming this means you can freely warp between bonfires you've found and sat at. This might not be free at all. You might only be able to warp back to a "safe haven" (even if it's not a hub map like in Demon's). You might not have this ability throughout the whole game. You might miss out on things if you simply warp everywhere. There's so much one can speculate without actually playing through the game and seeing how it works in context.
2. Respec
Again, we don't know the exact details here. We can assume it'll cost a handsome amount of souls, and at this point it reminds me of absolving sin in Dark Souls - something you couldn't do in Demon's - which didn't break the formula or make the game any easier. Savvy pros used the Bottomless Box glitch to "respec" in Dark Souls, but this was abused horribly by less legitimate users. Many of us will still be content starting characters from scratch and trying new builds the old fashioned way, while pros and hardcore players with plenty of souls to spare will be using this new feature to fine-tune their favourite builds or create clever and unique variations that will add to the community (especially important to PvP).
3. Voice chat
Face it, this is just something that thousands of fans (hardcore and casual alike) wanted. Currently, people use Skype and stuff to chat privately, and that won't change. It's been mentioned that you'll need to equip an item/ring in order to use this, so it comes at a cost for those who are desperate for it early on (I actually think it would be a clever idea for a starting gift...) Still, it's another completely optional feature that has no bearing on how you personally wish to enjoy the game at your own pace.
On some levels, I agree with your "if it ain't broke..." mentality. However, it's quite a stretch to say that these things are core to the experience and define the game. The problem is that so many people are looking at what other games have that Dark Souls doesn't, and using that to define the core. You need to try and look at what Dark Souls has that other games don't; then maybe you'll have a better appreciation for its design and what's really important here.
The_Hitcher89
Member
Phew
Don't really see the problem with travelling to any bonfire already found, as long as you still have to explore properly the first time through.
Respec will lower down replay value, to start the game from beginning.
Also I feel some kind of dread from the 'voice chat', like the players breaking down the games immersion...or worse (spamming or abusing, especially during invasions).
33-Hit-Combo
Member
Are FS gonna mess with players who get the game early again? Worried my preorder might come early and I'll wind up getting chased by max lvl phantoms!
Dont think you can use voice chat with the person you are invading or vice versa. Voice chat only works in coorperate play from what I have read.
IIRC voice chat only works in with coop partners who have the ring too. So you cant smack talk invaders.
I wonder what will happen, when I don't use the ring and a blue does.
Will I hear "Hey, use the voice ring, use the voice ring, here use the voice ring"?
Or will there be a "blue uses voice ring, activate yours if you want to get voice chat" message on the screen?
Any of those would seriouly get on my nerves.
Hopefully there is just nothing. But then I bet that I will get PSN messages a la "you fuckhead, use the voice chat ring"
sublimit
Banned
I don't think FS has become stupid and decided to completely disrespect their fan base (and their own games).
Still if i was FS i wouldn't have included voice chat even for co-op.It goes against the nature of the game but probably Bamco pressed them to include it in order to expand the fanbase.
You'd still cut out the whole backtracking part which was an essential reason for the incredible sense of place DkS developed. Also, backtracking was meaningful in DkS. Up until you got the Lordvessel, long journeys to certain places always meant struggle and risk, but embarking on these journeys through the world and and eventually arriving also felt extremely satisfying. Traversing the world was part of DkS's incredibly motivating risk/reward principle basically. Futhermore, there were many places that you struggled to escape from because they were so gross and intimidating. You felt trapped in a shithole - and it was great. Those kind of experiences were a big part of my DkS enjoyment and it just wouldn't have been the same if I could've just warped back to the hub at any time. I feel the Lordvessel solution, the point of time you received it because the world got bigger, was perfect. Also, receiving the Lordvessel itself was satisfying as well in terms of progression. It was that incredible new power that changed the pace of the game. So there's another potential "hooray!" moment gone from DkS2.
I can already see people who will make constant use of bonfire warping claiming that the world in DkS2 doesn't feel as coherent to them. The sense of scale and familiarity with the layout will be gone. And it most likely won't be the fault of the world design but of the disjointed nature of warp-travelling through it right from the beginning. Having to explore it once just doesn't cut it. The sense of place in DkS was building up slowly. The more often you traversed the world, the better you understood it and the more breathtaking it became.
Let some the players abuse it and find roundabout ways to do that stuff. I don't care. As most players, I assume, I always play by the rules of the game and there is a huge difference between a subset of players using external ways or exploits to accomplish such things and making it an outright feature of the game - because in that case it affects everyone. I want to feel that my decisions have consequences and for that the game has to impose those rules on me. I don't care if other people break them somehow, but I need them. The external item selling in Diablo 2 vs. the included auction house in Diablo 3 is a good example of a once external mechanic being included in the game and ruining it. And speaking of Diablo 3, that game's respeccing was also one of the various aspects that ruined it for me.
In general, I think games often lose their appeal when they are developed increasingly for the "don't have time, want more comfort" audience. It often results in shallow game mechanics and in watering down the crucial risk/reward principle (often to the point where it doesn't really exist anymore). Especially the latter was the staple of the Souls games and the great differentiator from basically all other modern games out there. Most modern games just don't have any "highs" and "lows" anymore, just a constant, average simmer that makes them more uninteresting and less motivating in the end. And unfortunately it seems the watering down has begun here too. Of course, this isn't a judgement yet, these are just concerns that are based on more than 20 years of gaming experience.
SiegfriedFM
Member
Black Separation Crystal.
I don't think FS has become stupid and decided to completely disrespect their fan base (and their own games).
Still if i was FS i wouldn't have included voice chat even for co-op.It goes against the nature of the game but probably Bamco pressed them to include it in order to expand the fanbase.
Bingo
fluffydelusions
Member
Posted? JP collectors edition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNz-oIViVnI#t=0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNz-oIViVnI#t=0
sublimit
Banned
And it will only get worse.I'm sure in DS3 they will press FS for even more compromises.When it's not your own franchise you don't really care if you have crossed the line as long as you sell more.
I think Sony would have been a much better publisher for the Souls games.Yeah it sucks that DS would have to be exclusive then but Sony has shown that they give complete reign to their studios over their IPs.Even for huge budget games like Infamous SS or The Order they didn't pressed the developers to include some tacked on MP just because coop is a "hot" trend for modern games.
If only Yoshida had judged Demon's Souls quality a bit better back then...:/
Nah. BN is only publisher for outside of Japan. Technically From still owns the rights, and they can do whatever they want. Unless they've signed some kind of contract, I'm sure if BN got too demanding they could easily get another publisher to bring the series over.
KiwiLannister
Member
These changes man :/
I hope the game is still good, but I seriously feel like they're starting to get the wrong idea. It's not ridiculous difficulty that makes us love the games, it's the unforgiving nature of them and the fairness.
Respecs are stupid. Voice chat defeats the purpose of the online, before it was a very lonely experience even with co-op which was really unique, now it's going to be similar to most other coop games. Fast travel shouldn't be too bad but it will almost inevitably hurt the level design. It does in almost every game it's put into.
The level design we've seen looks great. The gameplay looks terrible, but it's hard to tell if it's because they have people literally trying to die (seriously, such a stupid way to promote the game) or if changes to combat mechanics aren't very true to the last games. I think some early gameplay had a player swinging a 2h sword like it was nothing.
Seriously, all it would take is a video of someone playing through a level properly to put some of my fears at rest. Instead they continue with stupid marketing aimed at the cod audience who won't buy the game anyway.
Slight rant. I guess I'm just annoyed with how they are promoting the game, they've done a pretty bad job at convincing me that it's more Dark Souls.
I hope the game is still good, but I seriously feel like they're starting to get the wrong idea. It's not ridiculous difficulty that makes us love the games, it's the unforgiving nature of them and the fairness.
Respecs are stupid. Voice chat defeats the purpose of the online, before it was a very lonely experience even with co-op which was really unique, now it's going to be similar to most other coop games. Fast travel shouldn't be too bad but it will almost inevitably hurt the level design. It does in almost every game it's put into.
The level design we've seen looks great. The gameplay looks terrible, but it's hard to tell if it's because they have people literally trying to die (seriously, such a stupid way to promote the game) or if changes to combat mechanics aren't very true to the last games. I think some early gameplay had a player swinging a 2h sword like it was nothing.
Seriously, all it would take is a video of someone playing through a level properly to put some of my fears at rest. Instead they continue with stupid marketing aimed at the cod audience who won't buy the game anyway.
Slight rant. I guess I'm just annoyed with how they are promoting the game, they've done a pretty bad job at convincing me that it's more Dark Souls.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
They will. Dark Souls was marketed to casuals along with hardcore gamers, and it was a success in both cases.
Let's hope that the "casual" part of the gamers didnt buy the game, died in the cemetery and then start screaming at From Software that the game was hard
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
They did, but they also told their friends how cool and unbelievably hard this game was. Then those friends bought the game.
sublimit
Banned
I don't know man...Namco is investing lots of money to publish and market the game to western audiences...i would've been very suprised if they didn't pressed FS to make some changes.Especially for the online aspects of the game since these are very important to western gamers in general.
floatingcoffins
Member
I don't really like the voice chat option but as I don't even have a microphone, it doesn't really affect me (I liked the communication by gestures). Warping is fine being there at the beginning although it should have been limited to certain bonfires like DaS.
I think that if this had been a new game (Dragon's Souls?!) rather than a numbered sequel, there would maybe be less opposition to the changes.
I think that if this had been a new game (Dragon's Souls?!) rather than a numbered sequel, there would maybe be less opposition to the changes.
Eh, it would be the same. Internet likes to complain a lot.
People really need to get their hands on the game and realize how most of the "negative" changes like voice chat and respec will not affect them in the slightest. Some are probably even going to like them on their subsequent playthroughs.