If Take-Two closed them down for financial reasons, then why would Levine still work for them now? That just don't make sense. It exactly shows that the studio closure have nothing to do with anything but Levine's decision to have fresh start and pursuse his artistic vision. The fact that he can closed a big studio like Irrational Games and still working with Take-Two very much proved how powerful and resourceful he is as a creative person that Take-Two prefer Irrational Games to be taken down than losing Levine.
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Irrational Games shutting down, 2K takes over BioShock, KL in new 15 person DD studio
- Thread starter Quentyn
- Start date
If Take-Two closed them down for financial reasons, then why would Levine still work for them now? That just don't make sense. It exactly shows that the studio closure have nothing to do with anything but Levine's decision to have fresh start and pursuse his artistic vision. The fact that he can closed a big studio like Irrational Games and still working with Take-Two very much proved how powerful and resourceful he is as a creative person that Take-Two prefer Irrational Games to be taken down than losing Levine.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Best way of going out in a blaze of glory: make the best Vita game (that doesn't sell at all, RIP Tearaway).
It could've been something special, shame they didn't get someone else to do it before today. Oh well.
Nah, I think that's only half right. They know he's a valued individual and so are his choice of top team members, but it's clear that if he's going to blow through years in development he should at least be doing it with a smaller budget and perhaps a smaller, more mobile staff. But they probably don't want to throw him a big budget again and have no use for the studio with the head chopped off and put in a jar as it were, so they fire them.
Though it probably IS true he wanted to work on something smaller too, but I have to assume one way or the other the fact the game didn't do as well as they'd like means they'd rather shut the studio down than put someone else in charge.
funkystudent
Member
On the plus side I think we can guess what that new 2k SF studio is working on now.
Do you know the antithesis of Ken Levine guys? It's Hideo Kojima. He trapped for almost 20 years working on the same series over and over because he can't cut off his emotional connection to it. He already stated it somewhere in an interview on how he have many ideas for new games, how want to make movie and so on. But he can't because of MGS hold him back from doing anything related to creative work.
element
Member
There seems to be some confusion what 'profitable' means on a game like this.
Take 2 isn't looking at making a couple million dollars on a game like this. They are looking at making tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars in PROFIT.
Even selling 4.5 million copies at $40 going to Take 2 which is a generous rate considering the breakdown of a retail game, and that the price dropped quickly, your revenue is only $180m.
Typographenia
Member
Absolutely did not see that coming.
NullPointer
Member
So why didn't they cancel it? There's no way they were ever going to hit crazy outer space numbers. Why in the world would they hold to those expectations?
Or did they expect to be able to better leverage the world and assets after Infinite released? Put all that development hell to some kind of long term use?
Or was it just crack smoking all around?
gray_fox224
Junior Member
All the best to you, Shawn.
speculawyer
Member
Yeah, this is an interesting question. What happened here? Bioshock Infinite did sell millions and won many GOTY selections. So how is it that the studio is closing? I guess it didn't sell enough to warrant a sequel? It was a great game, it sold well, but not well enough to be profitable?
Levine is more creative person than a business person. Closing his 17 years old studio down just because one flop that isn't flop at all considering it still sell mettrick of cash and critically acclaimed and not meeting sales graph target will make him very bitter against Take-Two. Of course it is plausible that Infinite is still not make any profit at this point, but Take-Two could trim Irrational Games staff down, or only give A or AA budget instead closing them down completely if they want him to do smaller projects. Levine is well known within core gamer community. His name alone will sell if he go to indie route, but in the end still work with Take-Two.
Guess they should have stuck with splash pages for cut-scenes.
17 Years A Free Dev.
*walks away*
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
It's pretty simple. Irrational was Ken Levine. That's gone. I'd be interested to know how many people get scooped up into other TT divisions.
I'm pretty certain that Bioshock will continue on. That's a decent franchise by name alone and I personally enjoyed what they did with Bioshock 2 and Minerva's Den which was done without Irrational.
BUNTING1243
Banned
I really don't know where they could go with the Bioshock IP from here. Infinite basically destroyed any potential for a sequel with the whole
lighthouse idea.
Take Two must take most of the blame in this, they're the ones who indulged Ken's ridiculous development cycles. All that studio needed was a producer with orders from the top to get a game out in two to three years instead of six and if certain egos couldn't handle that, show them the door. Despite this being Ken's failure he's the one sitting pretty with a new studio and creative freedom to do what he wants with a handpicked crew while everyone else is out of a job.
All the best to those affected, I hope you find new work quickly.
All the best to those affected, I hope you find new work quickly.
EmptySpace
Banned
so no more bioshock? should i buy infinite now on ps3? it has the first bioshock with it as well, right?
i was thinking of holding off and waiting for the next-gen bioshock.
i was thinking of holding off and waiting for the next-gen bioshock.
Rushersauce
Banned
ahahahahahaha good one, guys. April's fool.... *checks calendar* Fuck...
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
What do you mean? They literally have an infinite amount of stories that they could tell.
The dlc was their "Get out of Jail Free" card. She found and killed one in that instance.
Hari Seldon
Member
Have these type narrative first games ever sold more than 4-5 million? Why would anyone expect any more? The market for people willing to spend money for this type of game is pretty much capped. Tomb Raider, Naughty Dog, etc. all are around this number of sales.
Seems like if you want to be the head of a studio and you want to craft games via "sculpting", you better understand the economics of redoing pointless shit like the art for the fucking shanty town.
Seems like if you want to be the head of a studio and you want to craft games via "sculpting", you better understand the economics of redoing pointless shit like the art for the fucking shanty town.
So BioShock Infinite had a team of around 200, was in development hell for ~5 years, is estimated to have cost around $100 million to develop plus another ~$100 in marketing costs, has sold at least 4 million copies plus DLC, and I'm sure will continue to do well during Steam sales and other events along those lines. The BioShock franchise has generated over half a billion dollars in retail revenue, won acclaim across the board, and showed few signs of slowing down in terms of either sales or recognition. But BioShock 2, although still profitable, sold less than the 5 million expected, and Infinite - a much more ambitious, and also troubled, title - has also sold less than that. Somehow, a team that seems very talented, that has generated significant revenue over the years, that doesn't even seem particularly large or unwieldy, and that was working with a critically and commercially rich franchise could not thrive in this environment, with this business model, making these particular games.
What happened? What's wrong with the environment, what was wrong with the business model? Was it really necessary to shut down the entire developer, or is it more that the other options (Ken Levine forms a small team, BioShock brand given to another team) were just that much more attractive? I mean, regardless of the answer to that latter question, it is revealing that the path of least resistance lead to a place where Irrational Games would no longer exist. It makes sense in retrospect, but at the same time, that this company of all companies had to go says so much about AAA development today.
Good luck to the many, many people who suddenly find themselves jobless. I hope BioShock is in good hands, and I'm also looking forward to seeing what Ken Levine and his team come up with. I'm sure Levine played a role in this decision, but I wouldn't blame him for this happening, either.
What happened? What's wrong with the environment, what was wrong with the business model? Was it really necessary to shut down the entire developer, or is it more that the other options (Ken Levine forms a small team, BioShock brand given to another team) were just that much more attractive? I mean, regardless of the answer to that latter question, it is revealing that the path of least resistance lead to a place where Irrational Games would no longer exist. It makes sense in retrospect, but at the same time, that this company of all companies had to go says so much about AAA development today.
Good luck to the many, many people who suddenly find themselves jobless. I hope BioShock is in good hands, and I'm also looking forward to seeing what Ken Levine and his team come up with. I'm sure Levine played a role in this decision, but I wouldn't blame him for this happening, either.
Its not simple since this guy isn't listing examples but its not exactly news that certain people think Levine is hard to work with.
Actionman1995
Neo Member
Shame the studio is closing, but maybe this is for the best. Being at one studio for 17 they must have felt rather 'type-casted'.
Honestly, I think this is more an indictment of post-release DLC practices than it is the production of the base games. I think we're seeing the breaking point on that stuff, the ubiquity of post-release expansions has been steadily poisoning the well for everyone for awhile now.
-Season Passes mean publishers have to commit up-front to further development on a game before they're even sure the game's sales and reception are a solid ground to build on.
-Tie ratios for DLC were never particularly amazing to begin with, but now that so many games do it, they're all eating each others' lunches. Customers only have so much money, they're lucky to go in for $10-30 of additional content on one game they buy this year, let alone several.
-A generational shift without backwards compatability means we're seeing a lot of people forced to reflect on their digital purchases' mortality. They're taking that long, hard look at the money they sunk into DLC this past gen versus the use they got from it, and I don't think a lot of people are coming away feeling particularly satisfied with their findings.
Stuff like Burial at Sea would almost assuredly find much better success as standalone games spun out naturally from a main game's production, rather than game-reliant DLC. The other DLC padding out the Season Pass justifications is, generally, better off not existing at all. The industry needs more Blood Dragons and less Game That Was Dead Online Two Weeks After Release: Map Pack #2s.
-Season Passes mean publishers have to commit up-front to further development on a game before they're even sure the game's sales and reception are a solid ground to build on.
-Tie ratios for DLC were never particularly amazing to begin with, but now that so many games do it, they're all eating each others' lunches. Customers only have so much money, they're lucky to go in for $10-30 of additional content on one game they buy this year, let alone several.
-A generational shift without backwards compatability means we're seeing a lot of people forced to reflect on their digital purchases' mortality. They're taking that long, hard look at the money they sunk into DLC this past gen versus the use they got from it, and I don't think a lot of people are coming away feeling particularly satisfied with their findings.
Stuff like Burial at Sea would almost assuredly find much better success as standalone games spun out naturally from a main game's production, rather than game-reliant DLC. The other DLC padding out the Season Pass justifications is, generally, better off not existing at all. The industry needs more Blood Dragons and less Game That Was Dead Online Two Weeks After Release: Map Pack #2s.
That's kind of disrespectful to all the other people that worked there.
cj_iwakura
Member
I loved Infinite, so this makes me sad.
And yet I'm relieved that my favorite devs run off of small teams for this very reason(From, Atlus).
And yet I'm relieved that my favorite devs run off of small teams for this very reason(From, Atlus).
infiniteheteroskdasticity
Member
Curious. I seriously doubt it was anything to do with the performance of Infinite. The game sold well enough to be a money maker for Take Two regardless of its extended development cycle. I believe they even mentioned its profitability on an earnings call last year. My best guess is Ken Levine just decided he wanted to do something else - notably Telltale style narrative focused games. Its probably a better fit. For all the amazing worldbuilding and storytelling the gameplay bits of Infinite were mediocre.
Without him, keeping irrational on makes very little sense. Even with the ip still at Take Two I'd be surprised if they'd want to do anything with it without him. Maybe they try and find some dupe to sell the ip on to.
Without him, keeping irrational on makes very little sense. Even with the ip still at Take Two I'd be surprised if they'd want to do anything with it without him. Maybe they try and find some dupe to sell the ip on to.
At the very least the next time he spends over half a decade churning out an unprofitable mediocre FPS, only 14 people will have to lose their jobs
I kind of expect/hope that with a lower budget comes lower demands to hit very large demographics, meaning maybe he really DOES get to create something more like a System Shock 3, especially since I wouldn't be surprised if they expanded that to like 30 to 50 people, enough to build a somewhat ambitious game but not a proper AAA game. Maybe more like big Kickstarter or something (which is probably part of why they kept him around, hoping to sell that kind of game without him avoiding them entirely.)
At a minimum if he continues those kind of creative whims it'll be way less costly and time consuming to start a section over again or something.
JasonUresti
Member
Infinite's performance and the costs of running the studio have a 100 percent chance of having something to do with it. A large video game corporation does not sack hundreds of people close a high profile studio because Ken Levine wants to work on smaller games.
Irrational and Bioshock being high profile, and the specific workings of Levine's contract with 2k have made this a little of an unusual closing by video game industry standards, but this is what it is. A studio wasn't justifying it's expenses, and so it got cut.
Exactly it doesn't make sense to give a game like this (or any game really) such a massive budget and seemingly no deadline.
2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXtEAED3zgo
2011: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WUt5dEMt_Y
2012: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9m6kJNeuk
Look at all the things that were culled from the final game, things that look perfectly good. This is a game that could have and should have come out at least two years sooner than it did were it not for this "sculpting" silliness.
Andrew Korenchkin
Member
SenjutsuSage
Banned
What's next, Amazon buys 2K?
putting aside the passive aggressive snark, I suspect 2k offered him continued employ because they're totally willing to publish whatever it is he chisels out, so he'll probably get a full team of people.
Heck, some might be people that have been let go here. Who can say?
Those never looked like actual gameplay to me and I have a hard time believing that any of it was ever in a playable state. I don't think it was culled from the final game so much as they were never able to figure out how to turn the ideas they scripted out into playable game mechanics.
I loved Bioshock 1 and Infinite, even if they took awhile to come out, but so many people losing their jobs absolutely sucks. It sucks even more if (correct me if I'm wrong, please) that Ken Levine wanted to work on a smaller scale so he/2K fired 135+ people to keep him and his select few with the publisher. It's stupid and whoever is responsible, be it Levine or 2K are dicks. The studio could have been passed off to another person unless Levine is taking ALL its senior staff, but in that case his new smaller studio would have too many chiefs and not enough Indians. Instead they fire everyone to keep the big name.
NullPointer
Member
*eye twitch*
Femmeworth
Banned
If the Bioshock 2 team make the next game in the series, I'd be happy.
Wind's Howling
Member
This was bound to happen whether you think so or not. KL probably had the option to completely abandon the scenery or take home a few gaming brains and start a whole new company. KL has so much ambition, but he was not the one paying the 135+ employees. It is not like Infinite was mighty profitable for a game that took over 5 years of development time.
phantomspiker
Member
2k Marin went under last year.
Ban Puncher
Member
Ken Levine and The Night of the Long Knives
F2P coming to iOS this summer
Femmeworth
Banned
Fuck.
Barakov
Member
Really puts some things in perspective.
The Bureau: XCOM Declassified killed them.
Ban Puncher
Member
Gearbox presents Bioshock: Colonial 2kMarin's
Matrix XII
Member
I can't believe this.
What terrible news
What terrible news
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