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[Oriel]

No, this is what happens when you have a power hungry mad man in charge who refuses to relinquish power. The protesters having guns would not solve anything, it would only lead to more bloodshed and the Russian army rolling in.

Revolutions can happen without the revolutionaries being armed.
For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Ceausescu#Revolution

No, but the army were, who were responsible for overthrowing and executing Ceausescu and his wife after a swift "trial".

 

[LanceVance]

You could say the country is having a meltdown... Wouldn't be the first time!! haha

This is totally the wrong time to be making jokes like that

 

[Kinan]

CNN, which is a neutral source states that "It's unclear what prompted the gunfire. But CNN crews at the scene reported that as security forces were moving away from the area, a group of protesters pursued them, throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails."

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/20/world/europe/ukraine-protests/index.html?iref=allsearch

Yea, and AK74 magically appeared in the hands of Berkut as they were running away from angry protesters so they could return the fire. A miracle, since Berkut didn't have any real guns all these months, according to the officials.

According to protesters, Berkut tried to set Philharmony on fire the same way they did with the trade union building last night. The protesters chased them away only to be met by a gun fire. Fits the CNN's description, if they arrived at this time point.

More deputies are leaving the Party of Regions after todays events. Most importantly, the temporary major of Kiev made a strong statement, left the party and ordered to open the metro again.

The government is doing everything to stop the political decision. The deputies that arrived to the Rada at this morning found it closed, even though the session was planned for today. Now opposition and a sane part of the Party of Regions has gathered there and broke in, but they will not be able to gather 300 voices for the constitutional changes and even if they would, the president would not sign anything limiting his power.

 

[dapperbandit]

In the recent footage the government forces seem to be wearing yellow armbands. What do they represent, I don't recall seeing them worn before.

 

[Jackpot]

Thanks for the clarification. Still seems rather overkill, if you pardon such an expression.

Think that's bad, in the UK armed police are allowed to use hollow-points and most forces have it as their default.

 

[Oriel]

Three border crossings linking Ukraine with Poland have been blocked, unclear if by protesters or the regime.

Meanwhile, according to the Guardian:

“The city centre now belongs to the opposition. For now it’s quiet, and there’s an absolute frenzy of barricade building, involving young and old, men and women.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/bl...-crisis-new-clashes-strain-truce-live-updates

 

[E92 M3]

Think that's bad, in the UK armed police are allowed to use hollow-points and most forces have it as their default.

Really? I am genuinely shocked.

 

[Oriel]

Irena Taranyuk from the BBC's Ukrainian Service says the authorities have "lost control" of the west of the country.

"Local protestors have not only taken control of local authorities but they have torched security services headquarters," she told the BBC World Service's Newshour programme.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26269221

 

[Kinan]

In the recent footage the government forces seem to be wearing yellow armbands. What do they represent, I don't recall seeing them worn before.

Gov-hired thugs (so called "titushki") were spotted wearing those yellow bands last night. Some kind of mark to avoid shooting on your "friends", since titushki are dressing themself similar to the protesters.

 

[Oriel]

Think that's bad, in the UK armed police are allowed to use hollow-points and most forces have it as their default.

To be fair the British police will rarely resort to live ammo if at all. During the London riots two years ago the police didn't even have water cannons, and there was a major debate about whether they should be deployed or not. Only one force uses water cannon, police in Northern Ireland, where rioting is an established way of life there.

 

[Kinan]

 

[Oriel]

Councillors in Ukraine's western Transcarpathia Region have voted to declare the region "free of Yanukovych rule" - UNIAN news agency via BBC Monitoring.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26269221

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Think that's bad, in the UK armed police are allowed to use hollow-points and most forces have it as their default.

Really? I am genuinely shocked.

It's the most common ammo for civilians and police forces the world over. Especially important to use if you don't want the bullets over-penetrating your target and accidentally hitting the person standing behind them. They're banned for military use, but honestly it's one of the sillier bans in force.

 

[Oriel]

One RT "documentary" on the Maiden protests now interviewing a Berkut thug who confidently claims if the order came his men could clear the square within an hour. Obviously this programme was filmed some time back because the Berkut and police got their asses handed to them last night and this morning when they tried to do just that.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Now The Guardian starts quoting Russia Today. What is going on.

 

[Oriel]

Independence Square, sans police and barricades being restored.

 

[Jburton]

I have the feeling that the President tries to end this bloody.

When does Sochi finish?

 

[maquiladora]

CNN Breaking News ‏@cnnbrk 1m

Protesters' medical chief: About 100 killed in today's Ukraine clashes; no govt. confirmation

.

 

[Majine]

Jesus, 100 killed today.

 

[maquiladora]

 

[Nivash]

More evidence of a split within the Ukrainian government, this was posted on the foreign ministry's Facebook page half an hour ago (Google translated):

"At a time when the eyes of the world turned to Ukraine , when the streets of Ukrainian cities killed our brothers and sisters, Ukrainian diplomats can not stay away .

In these circumstances, their primary mission , we see a true and impartial informing the international community about the situation in our country, protect the interests of Ukraine , all the Ukrainian people , every Ukrainian citizen.

We are always out and let go of the basic principles - independence of the State, through diplomatic means to ensure its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Under these conditions we can not respond to complaints, reaching both inside and outside of a possible split our country. We strongly condemn such statements and advocate for Ukraine as a single, unitary European state.

We believe that now is the time for compromise. We urge all parties to do everything to ensure that our country has ceased to pour blood.

In times of conflict remember that unifying each Ukrainian citizen is a common European values. Therefore believe that the Association Agreement with the EU, with the support of which , in fact, started Yevromaydan can unite us all."

 

[NYCmetsfan]

:-/

More evidence of a split within the Ukrainian government, this was posted on the foreign ministry's Facebook page half an hour ago (Google translated):

Can't that just be one rogue guy with access to the Facebook?

 

[Overdoziz]

Fuck, this video is pretty horrid. Shooting AK-47 into a crowd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8

Jesus

 

[Nivash]

:-/



Can't that just be one rouge guy with access to the Facebook?

A possibility, I suppose. But in that case we should see the post taken down soon or the ministry issue a formal denial.

 

[Agnostic]

It's going to get really nasty if the government falls and then the different political groups protesting start fighting each other for power.

/captain obvious

 

[NYCmetsfan]

http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/video/25270710.html

Video of a supposed police sniper

 

[NYCmetsfan]

A possibility, I suppose. But in that case we should see the post taken down soon or the ministry issue a formal denial.

I supposed but I wouldn't take a facebook post as proof of much.

Also wow at this Before and After

 

[Mondy]

Fuck, this video is pretty horrid. Shooting AK-47 into a crowd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8

This isn't a riot anymore. It's a civil war.

 

[Kinyou]

Fuck, this video is pretty horrid. Shooting AK-47 into a crowd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8

What the fuck....

 

[Ravensmash]

Now The Guardian starts quoting Russia Today. What is going on.

I think it's fine if they're balancing it with a variety of other sources. Trustworthy or not, RT's coverage is a fascinating source considering the wider political situations.

 

[NorthWind]

This isn't a riot anymore. It's a civil war.

Yet we still have people that honestly believe a disarmed population is the prefered scenario. Better that the government is able to gun down any opposition with impunity, because reasons.

 

[Kinan]

This isn't a riot anymore. It's a civil war.

Civil war is when 2 parts of the nations are at war, not when government is fighting its own people. This is a revolt.

Always hated to read Lenin when it was forced upon us in the Soviet times, but now I recall many things he said, and damn, that guy knew how to prepare a revolution. What happens now reminds more failed 1905 attempt than 1917, sadly. Neither opposition nor civil organisation were ready for this.

 

[Oriel]

More evidence of a split within the Ukrainian government, this was posted on the foreign ministry's Facebook page half an hour ago (Google translated):

Megaton!

...Or more likely a hacked account or some civil servants in Foreign Ministry doing a solo run.

 

[Oriel]

Police sniper shoots young medic in the neck.

Linked due to graphic nature:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images...5e37-9763-40cc-8b2e-69c32dc33500-460x276.jpeg

 

[Oriel]

Draft communique from EU foreign ministers on sanctions:

In light of the deteriorating situation, the EU has decided as a matter of urgency on targeted measures against those responsible for violence and use of excessive force...

At the same time, member states have decided to implement an arms embargo and a ban on equipment used for internal repression ...

Any further escalation, including the introduction of a state of emergency, or the use of the armed forces against protesters must be avoided.

 

[CitizenVectron]

Yet we still have people that honestly believe a disarmed population is the prefered scenario. Better that the government is able to gun down any opposition with impunity, because reasons.

And let's keep American political issues out of this thread please!

Also, the Ukrainian banking system appears to be on the verge of collapse. People are unable to withdraw their money. This is also affecting neighbouring Poland and Russia (and others), as the ruble has hit an all-time low against the Euro.

 

[Nivash]

Megaton!

...Or more likely a hacked account or some civil servants in Foreign Ministry doing a solo run.

Some further development on the FB post, from the BBC Live Feed:

Kommersant newspaper correspondent in Kiev Serhiy Sydorenko says that a call for compromise with protesters on the foreign ministry's Facebook page is a "mutiny" by diplomats and the statement has not been agreed with the foreign minister.

Not sure how reliable Kommersant is (it's a Russian daily paper) but that probably puts the truth somewhere in the middle - not a hack or a lone rogue civil servant but not representative of the entire ministry or the foreign minister.

 

[The Omega Man]

I wonder, those policemen shooting unarmed fellow citizens, do they feel guilty? can't they refuse? they probably have family members in the crowds, or are they soulless SOBs?

I couldn't live anymore if I had to shoot at innocent people, at my fellow country men, so sad.

 

[NorthWind]

And let's keep American political issues out of this thread please!

This is not just an American political issue. It's an issue for every nation that deliberately choose to suppress its citizens.

Also I'm not American, so American politics is hardly an issue for me. Human rights issues is a problem for me, and disarming your citizens, and proceed to gun them down with impunity when they revolt, is certainly a human rights issue.

 

[CitizenVectron]

I wonder, those policemen shooting unarmed fellow citizens, do they feel guilty? can't they refuse? they probably have family members in the crowds, or are they soulless SOBs?

I could live anymore if I had to shoot at innocent people, at my fellow country men, so sad.

Some of them are berkut, the special forces/swat of Ukraine. They would feel no remorse (or little). Some, however, are regular police or even interior ministry forces. The latter are 18-19-year olds who are conscripted for a year to serve in a sort of national guard. They would not like this situation. However, they are also kept isolated and can't get news of the larger events.

 

[Oriel]

Some further development on the FB post, from the BBC Live Feed:



Not sure how reliable Kommersant is (it's a Russian daily paper) but that probably puts the truth somewhere in the middle - not a hack or a lone rogue civil servant but not representative of the entire ministry or the foreign minister.

Likely the start of a split within the government, not good news for Yanukovych. Watch the behaviour and response of police and army units and see how they act, it will be quite interesting. Because if Yanukovych loses the support of the security services he's finished.

 

[E92 M3]

Police sniper shoots young medic in the neck.

Linked due to graphic nature:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images...5e37-9763-40cc-8b2e-69c32dc33500-460x276.jpeg

Man, that is brutal. I don't see a stop to this craziness. Violence will only keep escalating.

It's the most common ammo for civilians and police forces the world over. Especially important to use if you don't want the bullets over-penetrating your target and accidentally hitting the person standing behind them. They're banned for military use, but honestly it's one of the sillier bans in force.

I am surprised they are commonly used. Aren't they designed for maximum organ damage?

 

[NorthWind]

I am surprised they are commonly used. Aren't they designed for maximum organ damage?

"maximum organ damage". Lol.

They made to expend the most energy into the target as possible. So yes, they're generally more lethal against unarmored targets. But there's also the security argument which is completely reasonable. They're less likely to overpenetrate and hit innocents etc.

 

[Nivash]

Some of them are berkut, the special forces/swat of Ukraine. They would feel no remorse (or little). Some, however, are regular police or even interior ministry forces. The latter are 18-19-year olds who are conscripted for a year to serve in a sort of national guard. They would not like this situation. However, they are also kept isolated and can't get news of the larger events.

Describing them as SWAT or specops is actually understating it a bit - they are closer to paramilitary than police, are specialized in crowd control and answer to the Ministry of the Interior rather than the justice department. From what I've gathered they have a pretty nasty reputation and have been implicated in voter intimidation.

EDIT: My bad, they answer to the Ministry for Internal Affairs which is the same agency that governs the regular police forces. My claim of Berkut being closer to paramilitary political shock troops than SWAT still stands though.

 

[Oriel]

Some of them are berkut, the special forces/swat of Ukraine. They would feel no remorse (or little). Some, however, are regular police or even interior ministry forces. The latter are 18-19-year olds who are conscripted for a year to serve in a sort of national guard. They would not like this situation. However, they are also kept isolated and can't get news of the larger events.

Since the beginning of this crisis most of the police units, including the anti riot "Berkut" force has been drafted from the primarily Russian speaking South and East, as well as using hired thugs from the Crimea Autonomous Region, the most heavily Russofied part of Ukraine and home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet. Yanukovych knows it would be a mistake pitting sympathetic Ukrainian speaking officers from the West against their fellow people. A similar tactic was used at Tiananmen Square when the Communist Party brought in army units from outside Beijing as local units apparently refused to fire on their own.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

This is not just an American political issue. It's an issue for every nation that deliberately choose to suppress its citizens.

Also I'm not American, so American politics is hardly an issue for me. Human rights issues is a problem for me, and disarming your citizens, and proceed to gun them down with impunity when they revolt, is certainly a human rights issue.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ffective-than-violence-in-toppling-dictators/

Civil Non-Violent resistence works better than armed resistence

This has been proven time and time again.

 

[dripdripsplash]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ffective-than-violence-in-toppling-dictators/

Civil Non-Violent resistence works better than armed resistence


This has been proven time and time again.

No man, more people needs to be armed because that'll stop the violence!

/s /armchairrevolutionaire.

I know the grave consequences of civil war, we're all spectators to the horrors of Syria. I just don't accept the notion that we must have peace at any cost. The cost of liberty and the strength of the public is non negotiable.

And no you don't know shit about the consequences of a civil war. Imagine Copenhagen in flames and everything you've ever held dear ruined because: "More guns is the problem solver".

You don't accept the notion that we must have peace at any cost ? Geez. No, more guns and more killing is the way huh. You have a distorted view on this "honor of the people" thing or something cheesy like that.

 

[dapperbandit]

No man, more people needs to be armed because that'll stop the violence!

/s /armchairrevolutionaire.



And no you don't know shit about the consequences of a civil war. Imagine Copenhagen in flames and everything you've ever held dear ruined because: "More guns is the problem solver".

You don't accept the notion that we must have peace at any cost ? Geez. No, more guns and more killing is the way huh. You have a distorted view on this "honor of the people" thing or something cheesy like that.

He didn't buy that Che Guevara t-shirt for nothing man

 

[dripdripsplash]

I've been reading around and coming across what might be seen as poor attempts to discredit the protestors but they do have some photographic evidence for some of the things they claim.

Ten pictures that show Ukraine's protests are filled with toxic Neo-Nazi groups

Is there anything to this from any reputable news sources ?

EDIT: Nevermind guys! The guys wearing yellow bands are apparently government thugs according to :

In the recent footage the government forces seem to be wearing yellow armbands. What do they represent, I don't recall seeing them worn before.

Gov-hired thugs (so called "titushki") were spotted wearing those yellow bands last night. Some kind of mark to avoid shooting on your "friends", since titushki are dressing themself similar to the protesters.

 

[Kinyou]

With police killing unarmed protesters, what are the chances of the west actually stepping in, in some way?