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Large protests in Ukraine over failure to sign EU trade deal
- Thread starter Mr. RHC
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And barely any of which can be deployed outside of their respective home countries. This goes for all the other responses to my post as well: we do not have the supply or transportation capability to deploy any sizable force that far away. The only country in the world with that capability is the US. Libya was a major undertaking for the EU air forces despite Libya not having an air force in the first place and Italy being a stones throw away.
And calling the Russian Military "decrepit" is an incredibly dangerous mistake, they have plenty of equipment that are a match to ours and in numbers matching ours. This isn't the 90s any longer. Putin have put a ton of money and resources into modernizing the Russian military and this is what has allowed Russia to resume a more aggressive stance these last few years. And again, Russia is just next door - they can deploy almost everything they have. We can't.
True, this isn't the Cold War and Russia isn't a superpower. But it's not as if Europe ever actually had a fighting chance in the Cold War either. It took until the mid 80s before NATO even considered themselves to have a chance at winning a ground war in Europe against the USSR - and this is with heavy US support. Before that the assumption was that we would simply get steamrolled.
So yes, Russia is weaker. We are fairly evenly matched today with neither side being capable of successfully invading the other. But for all intents and purposes, the Ukraine is Russia in this scenario. Make no mistake, we would not stand a chance.
EDIT: And yeah, this will be my two last cents on that matter. No point in risking a thread derail.
No one is suggesting a conflict with the Russian Federation anytime soon. Just pointing out we're more than capable of defending ourselves from Russian aggression without the need for US assistance, as it should be.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I'm on the road so I can't browse the internet that easily, but I'm wondering:
There have to be like a thousand experts, talking about what might happen and how all of this will develop right? Is there any consensus about how all of this might end?
There have to be like a thousand experts, talking about what might happen and how all of this will develop right? Is there any consensus about how all of this might end?
It's a mute point anyway. We are not starting WW III over the Ukraine. They are not part of NATO and are in Russia's backyard. It sucks but there is nothing much that can be done from the U.S./EU side.
And some breaking news from the BBC: the EU just imposed sanctions on Ukrainian officials in the form of asset freezes and travel bans.
The news were dropped in the form of a tweet by Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt, which does not surprise me in the slightest. That man has no restraint when it comes to tweeting and probably couldn't keep himself from being the guy that broke the news (and yes, I'm Swedish by the way)
The news were dropped in the form of a tweet by Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt, which does not surprise me in the slightest. That man has no restraint when it comes to tweeting and probably couldn't keep himself from being the guy that broke the news (and yes, I'm Swedish by the way)
Must have gotten wind of the sanctions coming into play. Via BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26280710
Ah the parasites are leaving the body. Off they go to russia with their money.
In the recent modern era, yes. This wasn't always the case and in certain situations it might be necessary for the resistance/revolters to have the ability defend themselves so that their Non-violent protests aren't simply broken up by police/military/security forces. For example see something like the Iranian protests in 2009-2010.
Reforms rarely involve violence and it depends on how you're defining a revolution. A cultural or intellectual revolution is likely a shift over time and isn't the sort of potential flash point of violence and protest that you see in Ukraine. If you extend that chart that APKmetsfan posted farther back you'll see that violent revolutions have a better rate of "success" but that's because the revolutions were: A) Against a far away foreign power that was already stretched thin and couldn't allocate enough resources quickly enough to tamp down unrest B) The technology and arms gap between the general populace and what armed forces were able to field wasn't nearly as wide as it has become in the modern era. Go back far enough and you'll see plenty of instances of civilian industry changing gears with examples of foundries moving from civilian products to casting makeshift cannon. It wasn't that long ago that the violent revolution was as successful, if not more so, than the non-violent approach. Modern technology has, in some ways, made it easier for repressive regimes to remain in power so long as they can maintain control of who pulls the trigger. Thankfully given the more globalized political landscape we find ourselves in now, the international community is able to exert extra pressure on regimes around the world (in addition to feeling pressure from their own citizenry).
We all hope to see peaceful protests end well but in some cases it might be better in the long run if the citizenry is equipped to defend itself. This is especially the case when there are outside influencers (Russia) willing to arm, fund, and assist in stamping out the voices of another nation.
Once the elite start fleeing the country with their loot stolen from the people you can be sure the regime itself will be following them soon.
Exactly. This is the big question right now: who's side is the military on? The fact that Yanukovich hasn't called them in already and the fact that they are still largely a conscripted force points towards them at least not being uniformly loyal, but who knows really.
There really are only three ways situations like this go. The military sides with the uprising and the result is a revolt. The military is split between revolutionaries and loyalists and you have a civil war. Or the military sides with the government and you have a crushed revolt.
I truly hope it's the first.
Exactly. Ukraine means a lot to Russia. Sevastopol for example. Russia would not give up it's Black Sea Fleet so easily. Especially under Putin. Hopefully people in charge know this. There is a reason why the '99 bombing of Serbia could take place. One of them is Russia didn't give a f*ck and they were not a neighbouring country.
A sad thing among all of this missfortune are the comments of an average Serbian on news portals. The vast majority maintains it is all staged by the evil "democratic states who are running the world". I guess the people who actually know of the foothold the batyuskas took after WW2 in Vojvodina are not posting. But still the refusal to accept that people are suffering is undescribeable.
I don't care if it is even only 10% od the country raising. Revoultionists who even covered their statue in mid square to protect is as much as possible. The beatings and especially the shootings are despicable and deserve every condemnation.
On a side note, the recent discovery of how big of an assh*le Wesley Clark is, is just mind boggling as well. Hint: Pristina airport.
Contrary to popular oppinion here, Russia can and will cause significant mayhem if foreign powers interviene. All you need is a few idiots in charge who got up on the wrong foot to start it. And once it starts...
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
A short drone flight over the Maidan from what looks like yesterday morning.
http://www.bild.de/video/clip/ukraine/drohne-ueber-maidan-34751126,auto=true.bild.html
You can see how far the barricades were pushed back the night before. Only a few dozen feet from the main stage.
http://www.bild.de/video/clip/ukraine/drohne-ueber-maidan-34751126,auto=true.bild.html
You can see how far the barricades were pushed back the night before. Only a few dozen feet from the main stage.
Is this real? The 21st century is a strange thing.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
I know it's crap but it's their footage as far as I'm aware *shrug*
No one here is considering that in case of escalation, both EU and Russia might agree on a military intervention side by side, it's actually logic considering that the Gas pipelines from Russia to Europe run through Ukraine, neither side want to loose money nor Gas, so both sides might agree on a peacekeeping mission, am I wrong considering this scenario?
At present five Natural Gas pipes flow through Ukraine to get to Slovakia, Romania, Hungary and Poland. Although I doubt these counties would be happy over losing their gas supply line, they aren't exactly the 'big boys' of the EU and I don't think will have too much pulling power over Britain, France or Germany.
Plus I know it's still fairly cold outside, but it will be spring soon, people won't need the gas on too much from next month.
I had the idea that Germany receive their gas from Russia through Ukraine pipelines, if not this scenario I proposed is improbable...
Is not only the heating to consider, how about cooking and bath?
Germany does receive gas from Russia but that flows directly under the Baltic Sea :/
Well you would need some gas for cooking and bathing but I'm sure some temporary caps on gas wouldn't be too hard too take (although Russia does provide 1/3 of those countries gas, so 1/3 less time in the shower :/).
dapperbandit
Banned
Great Vice documentary
Spent much more time with the right wing elements than I'd expect from Vice to be fair as well.
Spent much more time with the right wing elements than I'd expect from Vice to be fair as well.
so damned boss.
Im proud of all of these people for fighting for whats right. hurts my heart to see all the dead, but it is worth their sacrifice.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=34e_1392746107
It seems both sides use molotovs and weapons and shit.
Greece closed down all polyclinics a few days ago. But noone gives a fuck. I only got that information from a blog and I then verified that with a dev, who is living in Greece.
(polyclinics were treating people, who do not have insurance... which means those people are now totally fucked, thanks EU)
maquiladora
Member
dripdripsplash
Member
Oh don't take it as I'm taking the free speech for granted. It is a right I hold very dearly, I am just very cautious about calling for revolutions who has far more devastating consequences that you would believe.
EDIT: And I believe that Syria and Ukraine are very, very different situations by the way. There is a possibility for negotiation and peaceful resolution here, that is long gone in Syria .
EDIT: What's TFM ?
user friendly
Member
NYCmetsfan
Banned
@myroslavapetsa
\239 MPs registered in Rada at emergency session, quorum secured. Vice-speaker Koshulynsky presides, not speaker #Rybak who reportedly fled
But a vote of non-confidence is too much?
Kite
Member
Europe's militaries don't have the logistics to support any sort of large scale or extended war. They've come to depend on the US too much.
Sakura
Member
Really disappointed by the protesters and the west here. If these were pro-Russian protesters fighting for closer ties with Russia, you can bet that the west would suddenly be supporting the government instead of the protesters. It's really sick how things have to escalate to violence and they can't protest/strike peacefully. As far as I am aware, the current Ukrainian government was elected democratically and was recognised as such by the rest of the world. Therefore they should have the mandate to run the country. If people don't like it, they can protest peacefully, and if enough people feel the same then come next elections a pro-EU government would be elected. Are these protesters going to be happy with the state of Ukraine after this is all over?
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
@myroslavapetsa
\239 MPs registered in Rada at emergency session, quorum secured. Vice-speaker Koshulynsky presides, not speaker #Rybak who reportedly fled
I was watching them do this in the Rada. Apparently it technically needs Yanukovich's signature for it to mean anything, but it's still a big deal. They will be back tomorrow (presumably to debate returning to the older constitution).
They were protesting peacefully you know, right until the government decided it'd had enough of the protests and decided to remove them by force.
CHEEZMO™;101635454 said:
It's a great step in the right direction. And if they can repair the constitution that'd be a great thing too. But ultimately Yanukovich simply has to step down. The West should be calling for his resignation as he has obviously lost his legitimacy and mandate. It would also be nice if Putin would call for Yanukovich's resignation, as I'm sure he'd prefer to defuse the situation too. Once Ukraine has a new President with a legitimate mandate they should be able to start making progress towards a better future.
This is interesting. I didn't know the Far Right / Neo-Nazis and their aligned paramilitary organizations represented such a large part of the protest movement in Kiev.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Its semi-presidential and they need 2/3 (300 votes) for impeachment (and its only for treason)
After the killing of 75 people today and others over the past number of months, there is absolutely no way this ends with Yanukovich in power .... in fact for many I don't even think that's enough.
Sakura
Member
Protesters were pushing vehicles around, clashing with police, throwing bricks at police, and police were responding with stun grenades and such. It's not like there were just peaceful protesters standing around holding signs, and police started sniping them. And like I said, if this situation were in the reverse, a government trying to be more pro-EU, and there were pro-Russian protesters, the west would suddenly be on the government's side... Really disappointing. Nobody wins from all this.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Reason no. 35,619,472 why presidential systems suck and should not be used in nascent democracies.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I don't think that's a compelling reason. He could be impeached if his party wasn't in power. The only reason they could vote on this stuff is because his party left and like 30 defected. The ultimate power is still in the hands of the legislature.
I can see many arguments but that's not one of them.
thezerofire
Banned
you haven't looked at this history of this, have you?
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