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Large protests in Ukraine over failure to sign EU trade deal
- Thread starter Mr. RHC
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ThoseDeafMutes
Member
These protestors aren't a "minority" in the same sense that tea party rallies are a minority. There has never been a protest in history that mobilized a literal majority of the population of a country, even if well over 50% of franchised citizens support the protests. As far as we can tell by polling, roughly half the population of Ukraine was in support of the Euromaidan protests as of December last year. The government passing anti-protest laws and becoming increasingly harsh in efforts to crack down on them is adding fuel to this fire.
I'm not sure what your standard is here exactly, but when cities are burning and mass protests are happening over most of your country, it might be time to think about giving the people what they want. If the government had just called an early election they would have been voted out by now and the country could be getting back on track instead of sliding perilously close to outright civil war and flirting with the idea of Russian tanks rolling through Ukrainian streets.
The president is there to do what the people want. Nothing more. It's not a popularity contest in which the winner becomes God for 4-5 years. If thousands of angry people show up at your doorstep, you can be sure there are at least 10x that amount equally mad, but unable/unwilling to put themselves on the line like that.
The most reasonable thing at this point would be to resign, form an interim government and hold early elections.
But I guess Putin gave different orders.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
"Attack"? Oh no, I hope he doesn't beat me to death in the street. I would of course fully deserve this punishment for making Sakura fear for his life though, so s'all cool.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Kyiv spring
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
I will, by not performing mental gymnastics to excuse the murder of dozens of unarmed people.
Agent Unknown
Member
Good grief this is getting insanely scary. I wonder how many people total were beaten to death in that video CHEEZMO posted.
Great avatar, man. I love the Doctor from Voyager. One of the best characters of all time. I don't know if you're aware of this, but right now you're like the Doctor in the first season when he was a jerk and would keep trolling Janeway and the entire crew whenever they were discussing something to the point where they would just occasionally mute him or turn him off. Man, I would be spamming that mute button so hard right now if I were the Captain. Oh, and the doctor was at least amusing and didn't condone unarmed people being indiscriminately hewn down like insects. Like most other decent Star Trek characters, you know. Tell me, what is it about Star Trek that you enjoy? One thing I enjoy is the respect for other peoples' rights and lives and the emphasis the Federation always placed on avoiding violence and deadly force when dealing with difficult situations, how about you? Isn't it funny how sometimes we choose entertainment that promotes ideals we don't even really believe in ourselves? I just find that interesting.
100% this.
But since there was a defense force for Casey Anthony nothing suprises me anymore.
Great avatar, man. I love the Doctor from Voyager. One of the best characters of all time. I don't know if you're aware of this, but right now you're like the Doctor in the first season when he was a jerk and would keep trolling Janeway and the entire crew whenever they were discussing something to the point where they would just occasionally mute him or turn him off. Man, I would be spamming that mute button so hard right now if I were the Captain. Oh, and the doctor was at least amusing and didn't condone unarmed people being indiscriminately hewn down like insects. Like most other decent Star Trek characters, you know. Tell me, what is it about Star Trek that you enjoy? One thing I enjoy is the respect for other peoples' rights and lives and the emphasis the Federation always placed on avoiding violence and deadly force when dealing with difficult situations, how about you? Isn't it funny how sometimes we choose entertainment that promotes ideals we don't even really believe in ourselves? I just find that interesting.
CHEEZMO™;101677169 said:
100% this.
But since there was a defense force for Casey Anthony nothing suprises me anymore.
Great avatar, man. Not too big into the show personally, but I've seen it enough - definitely some hoot moments in there. I don't know if you're aware of this, but right now you're like Crow, making remarks and jokes that are pretty far out, some may even call excessive for the show. Yea, you definitely represent your avatar... that's for sure.
See? I can make witty jokes too.
Now on to the subject matter - show me where I said that I'm totally cool with these protestors getting shot. Quote me. The only thing I commented on was how the cease fire stopped probably due to the protesters, which is in fact based on multiple sources.
I realize that I'm one of the few people in here with the less popular opinion on this issue, but that doesn't mean that you can just sit back and throw it in my face without contributing anything to the conversation. Stop being so childish, dude.
Agent Unknown
Member
lol No actually you can't. "Sometimes Crow goes too far when making fun of bad movies on a TV show designed around the concept of making fun of bad movies which is what you are like." No, sorry, that's quite nonsensical and one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. My post pointed out something core to Star Trek's message that is absolutely true and can apply to the tragedy of the human condition in Kiev, while your "witty" reply defeats the whole purpose of what MST3K is all about as a comedic TV show and has nothing in common with the opposing values of the serious real world crisis we're discussing. Counterpost fail, my friend.
Uh huh, so of course now we're going for the pathetic, weak, typical first person strawman cop out tactic of "Even though I'm being crass about the topic and endlessly going on about why I think people are wrong about how they view the police brutality, unless you can show me where I explicitly spell out what my stance is in black and white terms or can show me where I say "Hello, I am OK with people being beaten and murdered!", then you don't have a point." CHEEZMO posted a video of people who have literally been beaten to death in the street and you do a drive by reply simply saying "stay classy" as if he was doing something wrong just by posting proof of the police brutality that is going on that you are making excuses for when you could have simply said something like "Yeah, wow, that's awful."
How about the multiple sources which say the protesters were actually starting to gradually disband until the government provoked them and police were critically wounding and killing protesters beforehand?
Ok, here we go. Yes, how inconvenient it must be for you to have to carry the "burden" of being called out for having the "less popular" opinion of making excuses for government and police brutality. I can from here on out ignore your endless hair splitting, whining, and defense force grinding wholesale. Goodbye.
Messofanego
Banned
archnemesis
Member
Source? Does that mean he will resign?
LiquidSolid
Member
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26284505
No details so far but the opposition haven't confirmed that they've agreed to it and the French are urging caution, saying it's not a sure thing yet.
bonesmccoy
Banned
Maybe?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/02/12/who-are-the-protesters-in-ukraine/
The most easily identifiable trend, if I'm reading this article correctly, is that the protests only enjoy 'majority' support when the government cracks down on them. Makes all the recent government activity all the more bonkers, imo.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26284505
edit beaten!
we don't know anything yet, probably just new elections
yay, let's vote for the man that is directly responsible for 70+ deaths
I wonder what his campaign ads would look like on TV...
Hopefully this does come to a conclusion soon. This is a powder keg that needs to be handled delicately.
I tried to counter the bad news by reading about Poland's successes since the fall of the Soviet Union.
pigeon interrupted
Member
The west/EU does bear some blame. Sorry but, in the objective, how can it not? There are no Good Guys and there are no Bad Guys (sorry for the cliché), just relativistic reason, quantity re: blame, shades of grey, safety in numbers, the shadow of the Cold War, greed and the illusion of isolation. Oh, and peoples lives (always an afterthought).
Expecting visitors, I see.
Security services burning documents.
Expecting visitors, I see.
my heart is out with the citizens, and my hope is that inside their burning minds, there is still some tranquility to think in reason.
in my recent experience of participating in riots, I have found out that the citizens are usually played out by the same forces that put the pressure on the government, thus being transformed to another pressure point.
I do not know or can not tell if the whole geopolitical game started from russians or from eu or from u.s or whoever.
I think it doesnt really matter, because bottom line its just people that want to make more wealth on the backs of the citizens and country.
citizens in my country were fed with a "dream" to get them going, and in the last 6-7 years we have seen this "dream" to materialize into a 25% shrinking of gdp.
with ALL key players (eu/us/russia moneymakers) having all a slice of the wealth of the country.
when we tried to riot, we found out that amongst us, the citizens, there where various types of people infiltrating, pretending to be one of us, that certainly were trained and were working on a strict agenda, that had nothing to do with the reason people were gathering. our peaceful riots turned into police brutality exercises because of those people, that stayed hidden until the moment they did something to heavily provoke (or give a excuse) for government brutality to happen.
and its not like our government is the "master mind" behind all this. it is my understanding that they are being pushed and shoved around like little bitches, and most probably are held in some way (money taking in the past most probably and the "threat" of loss of power) "hostage" to foreign agendas, that have the opposite to do with our county and our citizens well fare.
what can I say.. imho its a fucked up world.
so, once again, my heart and mind is with those citizens fighting for a better future. I only wish (like I wish for my fellow citizens, of my country) to sit down and carefully thing and fight for their own plans, and not become sacrificial pawns of a different scheme that may or may not be in their interest and welfare.
in my recent experience of participating in riots, I have found out that the citizens are usually played out by the same forces that put the pressure on the government, thus being transformed to another pressure point.
I do not know or can not tell if the whole geopolitical game started from russians or from eu or from u.s or whoever.
I think it doesnt really matter, because bottom line its just people that want to make more wealth on the backs of the citizens and country.
citizens in my country were fed with a "dream" to get them going, and in the last 6-7 years we have seen this "dream" to materialize into a 25% shrinking of gdp.
with ALL key players (eu/us/russia moneymakers) having all a slice of the wealth of the country.
when we tried to riot, we found out that amongst us, the citizens, there where various types of people infiltrating, pretending to be one of us, that certainly were trained and were working on a strict agenda, that had nothing to do with the reason people were gathering. our peaceful riots turned into police brutality exercises because of those people, that stayed hidden until the moment they did something to heavily provoke (or give a excuse) for government brutality to happen.
and its not like our government is the "master mind" behind all this. it is my understanding that they are being pushed and shoved around like little bitches, and most probably are held in some way (money taking in the past most probably and the "threat" of loss of power) "hostage" to foreign agendas, that have the opposite to do with our county and our citizens well fare.
what can I say.. imho its a fucked up world.
so, once again, my heart and mind is with those citizens fighting for a better future. I only wish (like I wish for my fellow citizens, of my country) to sit down and carefully thing and fight for their own plans, and not become sacrificial pawns of a different scheme that may or may not be in their interest and welfare.
maquiladora
Member
Probably just hot air.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I meant the 'only for treason' part. The legislature ought to be able to get rid of the executive for any reason it so chooses.
dapperbandit
Banned
So, how long until these elections?
You can be damn sure the protestors won't budge until they are at least given a date and will probably stay where they are until then. Hopefully they can just hang on until then without anybody on either side doing something stupid.
You can be damn sure the protestors won't budge until they are at least given a date and will probably stay where they are until then. Hopefully they can just hang on until then without anybody on either side doing something stupid.
I don't think there's a set date, just that the elections are to happen sometimes this year which technically would mean Yanukovich could stay in office until December. I don't think protesters would accept waiting more than a month or two so Yanukovich will probably have to clarify if he want the protests to end.
QuicheFontaine
Member
"I'm just brave enough to ask the questions no one else will!
Exactly what I thought of too! The "I'm just asking questions" defence.
http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/cae/servlet/contentblob/671350/publicationFile/190027/140221-UKR_Erklaerung.pdf
Signed by both parties. It's over(?)
- new election. earliest september, latest december.
- an interim coalition government formed in ten days
- reform to revert presidential powers back to what they where in 2004
It's a short document so you should read it yourself.
Signed by both parties. It's over(?)
- new election. earliest september, latest december.
- an interim coalition government formed in ten days
- reform to revert presidential powers back to what they where in 2004
It's a short document so you should read it yourself.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Really? No separation of powers?
Also, Catherine Ashton once again proves to be fucking useless.
Well, for her defense, I believe she's currently overseeing the negotiations with Iran in Geneva.
pigeon interrupted
Member
Hmm. I'm not sure, really. Hopefully this means no more bodies. Not sure.
Normally good and meaningful comes with an unwanted side order of shit. Profiteering shit. In this case it looks like half the meal being missing is the unwanted shit. I hesitate to go as far as calling European integration a pipe-dream but it was an improbable outcome given Ukraine's geopolitical ties/chains, but have they given up on the Euro part? This was Euromaidan, right? Not Orangemaidan, or Retromaidan? What of the Russian loan and gas deal that's not mentioned in pdf. What of the officially renewed association with Moscow?
Sorry don't mean to ridicule or downplay anything--I haven't seen that much... well, the video evidence is there for the world to see, at least. If they bother to look.
The glass is half full. I'm very glad people are no longer tortured and dying in the street and the constitution was returned to its original state giving the people back the power that was taken. I hope Ukraine has found some kind of resolution and not some kind of suppression. Stay safe UkraineGAF.
I don't think this is necessarily over either, the more radical protesters do not seem like they will accept anything but Yanukovich's immediate resignation, although it's possible the protests will lose enough steam if the majority of the protesters go home. As far as the Russian deal is concerned, it obviously came with strings attached. But I think those strings were tied directly to Yanukovich to make sure he did as he was told. That's why the money was only slowly given out in bursts, so that it could be cancelled at any moment. Most likely the new government could still sign the association agreement if it wants to and secure extra funding from the IMF and the EU instead of Russia who will just cancel any future payments. It's even possible the agreement could be signed before Yanukovich is out of office since I doubt he will have the political capital to really do much during the last few months before the election.
Frankfurter
Member
I'd say this is far more than one could have hoped for just 24 hours ago, so I'd say if this holds it's a great success.
Resident_UA
Member
This is the most misinformed thread on Neo-Gaf. And that's saying a LOT. Good thing that there are some relatively good news today. Just so you know there's more than is being reported and whoever tried to compare this to the US is just INSANE!
Here's similar scenario in the US (I'm not exaggerating number of people on the streets. It's just much higher estimate because of proportion of population):
SETUP: 2 million people on the street in Washington DC and act peacefully (there was no violence from protesters in Kiev for 2 months!!!)
GOVERNMENT ACTIONS BEFORE ESCALATION:
1. President releases statements maybe once a week and NEVER live!!!
2. President (or governors who support the president (i.e. Obama, Christie ) hire 1000+ people to destroy private property and kill people in Washington DC
3. Fox news journalists get beaten up consistently.
4. Activists get captured and tortured (i.e. Sarah Palin)
5. Activists and passers by get beaten up and arrested without the right for bail
6. Activists start DISAPPEARING
7. Regular POLICE takes no action when all of this is happening and PROTECTS those hired by the government
Here's similar scenario in the US (I'm not exaggerating number of people on the streets. It's just much higher estimate because of proportion of population):
SETUP: 2 million people on the street in Washington DC and act peacefully (there was no violence from protesters in Kiev for 2 months!!!)
GOVERNMENT ACTIONS BEFORE ESCALATION:
1. President releases statements maybe once a week and NEVER live!!!
2. President (or governors who support the president (i.e. Obama, Christie ) hire 1000+ people to destroy private property and kill people in Washington DC
3. Fox news journalists get beaten up consistently.
4. Activists get captured and tortured (i.e. Sarah Palin)
5. Activists and passers by get beaten up and arrested without the right for bail
6. Activists start DISAPPEARING
7. Regular POLICE takes no action when all of this is happening and PROTECTS those hired by the government
pigeon interrupted
Member
Oh, man. I hope so. That would go some way to clarify the lack of detail. For the sake and sanity of the people. Putin always has an angle from what I have seen. Maybe this time he concedes his goal. Past form does not support this but maybe.
Maybe then Ukraine will have the pleasure of the IMF. Rub shoulders with UK, France and other places who distribute most exploitation outside of the club rather than into it resulting in better standard of living for members. Ура!
Agreed. It's the holding part that worries me.
Resident_UA
Member
Yup. It looks like people are not buying this deal... Too many killed... They just can't forgive him. And actions that the president took today only proved that he was behind everything...
pigeon interrupted
Member
Looks like yulia tymoshenko is part of the deal. I'm not sure how hard that was pushed by the protest--it was in there, not sure how central an issue it was--it's not in the agreement but its out there and puts Yanukovych in a good light. Reminds of the Putin Pre-Sochi Amnesty Bonanza!
Kind of source
Kind of source
Resident_UA
Member
She's not part of the deal. The party in power is split in half so they were able to pass the law. There's hope that they might have enough votes for impeachment by tomorrow.
Resident_UA
Member
They spoke already. They are not accepting the deal. And even though that's probably reasonable thing to do I understand them. Too many people have died.
maquiladora
Member
Euromaidan demanding Yanukovych resign by 10am tomorrow,
pigeon interrupted
Member
Aye, convenient timing tho. Part of the push, then. Another pro-euro party leader on the sideline could be good (ignoring inter-party play), not much use if the game (no disrespect) is already over.
If they can only impeach for treason- who defines treason- Parliament?
Resident_UA
Member
Yes. Parliament needs constitutional majority to do it. By tomorrow they might have it. The law was already submitted (by the guy who used to be in ruling party!)
http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/zweb2/webproc4_1?pf3511=49827
No, this is not how it is. This is your anecdotal account. And my anecdotal account widely differs from yours. For example, my fiance is from Ukraine (Odessa and then Kiev) and her family still lives there now. She talks to them every morning. And all of them are singing the opposite tune - that the government is self evidently corrupt, that the president needs to go or there won't be a resolution, and that the EU with US assistance needs to seriously step up their game if they want government actors in Ukraine to stop suckling at the tit of Russia. They are also at the moment shocked that Yanukovych would sign an agreement that would release his arch-rival Tymoshenko, who will most likely re-enter politics. They think he's biding his time again -- just like he did in January and early February. So, no, that is not how it is. And I'm not saying my account is the definitive account, either. But broad statements of opinion masquerading as fact are not really conducive. Obviously we will have to wait and see how the impeachment proceedings play out, but I find it very curious that Yanukovych would up and decide to release the former PM. And talking to my fiance and her family, they aren't exactly thrilled with her either. Like most Ukrainians I imagine, they are up to their breaking point with the amount of corruption that takes place -- she told me that for children to even receive grades for middle school usually a bribe is necessary -- and they don't believe swapping out one terrible president for a former jailed PM will help matters.
Resident_UA
Member
I wouldn't even bother replying to his comment. The sad thing is that he has access to information and chooses to be ignorant.
Oh, so this is routine for him in this thread? Thanks for heads up.
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