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Large protests in Ukraine over failure to sign EU trade deal

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M

Mac_Lane

Member
Yanukovych's claiming that it's a coup. He's gonna try to rally the eastern part of the country behind his claim.

Things look really fucked up, don't know what Putin's next move will be about that.
 
E

EVIL

Member
Jburton said:
Yes it has been confirmed real, that footage has been shown on BBC News and other stations, witnessed by reporters .......... a dummy? ..... come the fuck on!
Click to expand...

have you even watched that bit? I mean the rest is real for sure, these people where shot at. but that small clip of the guy dragging something down the hill, look to me like a dummy to lure snipers. like dress up a dummy and have it peek over the hill to see if people fire at it. This doesn't mean the whole event didn't happen, just that in that shot, that thing is clearly a dummy. I mean it has ropes on its legs to move it around.

edit: I had my wife had a look at the footage and she immediately responded that its a dummy, (the joints in the knee gives it away) when people have knees like that you should be worried.

But I repeat that this does not mean all the bodies are dummy's just that in this instance its a dummy used to lure weapons fire to see where its safe to move. (like sticking a helmet up on a stick and have it peek over trenches in WW1 / WW2) Better have a dummy look over the hill then you and recieve a bullet in your face.
 
S

Simplet

Member
Well for people who were wondering, what's happening right now is exactly the reason why Yanukovitch was not supposed to step down and/or be tried in the original deal. Protestors are getting too comfortable in Kiev and the east will not accept to see the government overthrown without a really solid constitutional basis for it, ie before new elections. They voted for the guy.

This said I think it will be difficult to really paint this as a coup d'état, they'll have to pretend that the parliament is taken hostage, I'm not sure that will stick unless the protesters do something stupid.
 
V

verbum

Member
If Ukraine splits or becomes a group of federated states, how will the gas flow to Germany and other countries be affected? Do they have enough gas storage to withstand a few months without gas?
 
Chaplain

Chaplain

Member
"priest holds a cross and shield during clashes between anti-government protesters and riot police in central Kiev, Ukraine"

1891003_10152610295278835_1212181_n.jpg

UokHBRW.jpg
Click to expand...
 
F

Frankfurter

Member
verbum said:
If Ukraine splits or becomes a group of federated states, how will the gas flow to Germany and other countries be affected? Do they have enough gas storage to withstand a few months without gas?
Click to expand...

Russian gas for Germany and much of the rest of Western Europe goes mainly through Belarus and Poland.
And gas storages are huge, I seem to remember that German gas reserves would last roughly a full winter (i.e. probably sth. like 2/3 of the demand of the full year) at any given time.

Edit: + North Stream, i.e. from Russia through the Baltic Sea to Germany.
 
C

CitizenVectron

Member
Not sure if it's been posted here, but the Berkut are now publicly siding with the protesters, along with the interior ministry troops/police.

This is going to get bad very quickly if Kharkiv declares itself the new capital of Ukraine, and calls continue for Russian assistance/reunification.
 
W

Walshicus

Member
The best outcome for Ukraine now really should be to split in two or three. Ukraine Proper, Crimea and perhaps another state around the Donbas area.

No point in keeping a state together that's as ethnically, linguistically and political fractured as the Ukraine currently is.
 
V

verbum

Member
Frankfurter said:
Russian gas for Germany and much of the rest of Western Europe goes mainly through Belarus and Poland.
And gas storages are huge, I seem to remember that German gas reserves would last roughly a full winter (i.e. probably sth. like 2/3 of the demand of the full year) at any given time.

Edit: + North Stream, i.e. from Russia through the Baltic Sea to Germany.
Click to expand...

That's good.

On another issue, I was reading the Economist's article on the Ukraine and ran across this in a comment (which read like it was from a Russian supporter).

If opposition takes power, Russia will stop bailing out Ukraine. Ukraine will face financial crisis. Economy will tank. Regime will collapse again.

Many Ukraines think that EU will help Ukraines if Ukraine joins EU. That's a wishful thinking. EU will force Ukraine to reform and to live Ukraine's own means. Ukraine's economy will fall like Greece after austerity.
Click to expand...

If the above happens, it sounds as if the Ukraine will be in some sort of trouble for a long time.

http://www.economist.com/node/21597004/comments#comments
 
L

Lagspike_exe

Member
Ukraine is 100% sliding into civil war. You can't sign a peacefire agreement, then occupy the parlaiment next day and attempt to change the constitution and force snap elections. That's coup d'etat. Naive demonstrators (if there are any who aren't on someone's payroll anyway) will curse Klitcko and the rest of opposition leaders in a few years when the entire country gets consumed by civil war.
 
J

Justin

Member
Resident_UA said:
Klitschko is trustworthy, but he's not very smart. He does have good surrounding... That's probably the best option.
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Pretty sure Klitschko saw his presidential aspirations get destroyed yesterday when he was booed off the stage multiple times. He has been out of favor in Maidan for a while so I guess it depends if that sentiment extends outside of the square.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCmOTaMh3pE (make sure you have subs on)
 
Tal Shiar Agent

Tal Shiar Agent

Member
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Russia attempts to annex the Southern and Eastern regions of the Ukraine. This might turn out like Georgia, I just hope we don't see Russian troops inside Ukraine's borders.
 
L

Lagspike_exe

Member
verbum said:
That's good.

On another issue, I was reading the Economist's article on the Ukraine and ran across this in a comment (which read like it was from a Russian supporter).



If the above happens, it sounds as if the Ukraine will be in some sort of trouble for a long time.

http://www.economist.com/node/21597004/comments#comments
Click to expand...

That's the best scenario. Russians could implement sanctions towards Ukraine (or its Western part if it comes to that, anyway) and collapse their economy virtually overnight. The time when EU and the US had the full economic leverage over the entire world has past.
 
C

CitizenVectron

Member
Lagspike_exe said:
Ukraine is 100% sliding into civil war. You can't sign a peacefire agreement, then occupy the parlaiment next day and attempt to change the constitution and force snap elections. That's coup d'etat. Naive demonstrators (if there are any who aren't on someone's payroll anyway) will curse Klitcko and the rest of opposition leaders in a few years when the entire country gets consumed by civil war.
Click to expand...

You also can't have police open fire on the public and kill close to 100 people, including medics.

As for insinuating that 100,000s of people are on someone's payroll...what? And what about the millions in the west who are against the government? Are they all being paid by the EU or something? If anyone is in anyone's pocket, it's the current government in Russia's.
 
C

CitizenVectron

Member
Lagspike_exe said:
That's the best scenario. Russians could implement sanctions towards Ukraine (or its Western part if it comes to that, anyway) and collapse their economy virtually overnight. The time when EU and the US had the full economic leverage over the entire world has past.
Click to expand...

How is the economic destruction of tens of millions of people a good scenario? You obviously are a cruel human being who lacks empathy. You're the type of person who wishes ill on other people because of base, primitive nationalistic nations better suited to the late 19th century.
 
S

Simplet

Member
Parlament just voted to impeach Yanukovitch, with a lot of people from his own party voting in favor. He will have to work extra-hard to convince everyone that the protesters are physically threatening the MPS, otherwise this might be game over.
 
V

verbum

Member
RileyLewis said:
How is the economic destruction of tens of millions of people a good scenario? You obviously are a cruel human being who lacks empathy. You're the type of person who wishes ill on other people because of base, primitive nationalistic nations better suited to the late 19th century.
Click to expand...

I assumed he meant that was the best outcome Ukraine could hope for at this point, not that he thought it was the best.
 
K

Kabouter

Member
RileyLewis said:
How is the economic destruction of tens of millions of people a good scenario? You obviously are a cruel human being who lacks empathy. You're the type of person who wishes ill on other people because of base, primitive nationalistic nations better suited to the late 19th century.
Click to expand...

Don't make this personal, if someone wants to argue the pro-Russia side of things like Lagspike, let them and argue against that, do not attack them personally for having an opinion that differs from your own, regardless of how much you disagree with it. And on top of that, I don't think you get what Lagspike is saying there exactly anyway.
 
C

CitizenVectron

Member
Kabouter said:
Don't make this personal, if someone wants to argue the pro-Russia side of things like Lagspike, let them and argue against that, do not attack them personally for having an opinion that differs from your own, regardless of how much you disagree with it. And on top of that, I don't think you get what Lagspike is saying there exactly anyway.
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Okay, I'll try.

Thanks for the warning.

On the actual point, I hope he clarifies what he is saying because it seemed to indicate he was supporting Russia imposing crippling sanctions on a western Ukraine, right after he insinuated that most protesters were on the payroll of someone with an ulterior motive.
 
C

CitizenVectron

Member
The Polish foreign minister is saying that the actions performed by the Rada are legal and constitutional, and not an illegal coup. He is saying this in response to Russia's foreign minister making a statement (and contacting him and saying) that it is a coup by radicals.
 
I

Incognito

Troll
Wow. Just getting back from cycling and see this. Don't think my fiancé has seen this yet.. she's going to be shocked. Can't wait to hear reaction from her mother, who's currently in Odessa.
 
L

Lagspike_exe

Member
RileyLewis said:
How is the economic destruction of tens of millions of people a good scenario? You obviously are a cruel human being who lacks empathy. You're the type of person who wishes ill on other people because of base, primitive nationalistic nations better suited to the late 19th century.
Click to expand...

You should read posts more carefully before calling other people names. I clearly made a distinction between different alternatives that I think could come in play. I also never said anything about what I believe is the better option, because on the path Ukraine is currently heading, it'll only be able to choose between lesser evils. And people of Ukraine have my sympaties, since my country underwent a similarly chaotic period that caused intense suffering in the entire population.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
RileyLewis said:
The Polish foreign minister is saying that the actions performed by the Rada are legal and constitutional, and not an illegal coup. He is saying this in response to Russia's foreign minister making a statement (and contacting him and saying) that it is a coup by radicals.
Click to expand...
Russian FM called them pogromists. Russia has to be talking to yan
 
C

CitizenVectron

Member
Lagspike_exe said:
You should read posts more carefully before calling other people names. I clearly made a distinction between different alternatives that I think could come in play.
Click to expand...

I apologize if I misinterpreted your comment, but it seemed to indicate that you favoured that course of events, and came shortly after posting the insinuation that the protesters were on the payroll of someone, when clearly that idea is preposterous as there are hundreds of thousands of them.
 
S

Sepp

Banned
Lagspike_exe said:
That's the best scenario. Russians could implement sanctions towards Ukraine (or its Western part if it comes to that, anyway) and collapse their economy virtually overnight. The time when EU and the US had the full economic leverage over the entire world has past.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what Russia has threatened the Ukraine and what lead Yanukovich to reject the association agreement with the EU (his voting base is in the east). Is is also the reason why Ukraine must get away from Russia in the long term. An association agreement with the EU does not preclude the Ukraine from having free trade agreements with other countries, but as a member of Putin's Eurasian union the Ukraine will lose self-determination.
 
M

maxlmus

Neo Member
The good news is that Timoshenko is out of "prison" (not a prison, really, high profile hospital but anyway). She was always very pragmatic and hopefully will show 3-clowns (Klitschko and other two) their place. Something tells me that it would be a prison in a couple of years but we will see.

The bad news is that country is two steps closer to the civil war and chaos. So called leaders have no idea what to do with economy, eastern regions and Crimea. It seems Russia doesn't give a shit (as well as EU of course) so they are on their own.

The "funny" thing is that history will repeat itself. In 4 years, just before next election, (given Ukraine still exist) the pro Russian Ynucovich 2.0 will emerge and will easily win. In 8 years there will my Maidan 3.0, blood and all this shit. Till the end of time. And this is a very optimistic scenario, not involving radicals and fascists taking over.

Very fucked up country if you ask me. And yes, I'm Ukrainian.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
maxlmus said:
The good news is that Timoshenko is out of "prison" (not a prison, really, high profile hospital but anyway). She was always very programmatic and hopefully will show 3-clowns (Klitschko and other two) their place. Something tells me that it would be a prison in a couple of years but we will see.

The bad news is that country is two steps closer to the civil war and chaos. So called leaders have no idea what to do with economy, eastern regions and Crimea. It seems Russia doesn't give a shit (as well as EU of course) so they are on their own.

The "funny" thing is that history will repeat itself. In 4 years, just before next election, (given Ukraine still exist) the pro Russian Ynucovich 2.0 will emerge and will easily win. In 8 years there will my Maidan 3.0, blood and all this shit. Till the end of time. And this is a very optimistic scenario, not involving radicals and fascists taking over.

Very fucked up country if you ask me. And yes, I'm Ukrainian.
Click to expand...

With such a divide what is there to do? It seems as if there is two Ukraines that are never gonna see eye to eye.
 
M

maxlmus

Neo Member
APKmetsfan said:
With such a divide what is there to do? It seems as if there is two Ukraines that are never gonna see eye to eye.
Click to expand...

The Ukraine was always divided between East and West. Nothing is going to change it unless it allies itself with a super power or become part of the super power. USSR is no more so I'm sort of pessimistic.

By the way, Russia as we know it, started 1500 years ago. And Kiev was a capital of the first Russian state for centuries so not all is lost.
 
C

CitizenVectron

Member
maxlmus said:
The Ukraine was always divided between East and West. Nothing is going to change it unless it allies itself with a super power or become part of the super power. USSR is no more so I'm sort of pessimistic.

By the way, Russia as we know it, started 1500 years ago. And Kiev was a capital of the first Russian state for centuries so not all is lost.
Click to expand...

The best situation for Ukraine would be Russia allowing it to pursue its own destiny. In other words, let it become closer to the EU for trade, but keep allowing trade with Russia. But Russia will not allow this, they insist that Ukraine must be completely dependent on Russia.

The best result for Ukraine (which seems impossible, historically) is for it to be a free European nation, not under the control of Russia or anyone else.
 
Y

Yamauchi

Banned
http://rbth.co.uk/news/2014/02/20/r...ussian_administration_to_protect_r_34359.html

Russian Community of Sevastopol asks Russian administration to protect Russians in Sevastopol, Crimea

The public organization Russian Community of Sevastopol has asked the Russian administration to protect the Russian population of Sevastopol and Crimea.

"We are asking Russia on behalf of residents of the hero city of Sevastopol to intervene in this situation and protect the Russian population of Crimea," the public organization said in an address posted on its website.

February 18 "essentially became a point of no return in the contemporary history of Ukraine," the document says.

"In the light of these events, the Russian population of Crimea and Sevastopol is under the threat of genocide," the address says.

The authors of the address also believe that the NATO forces may "soon enter the territory of Ukraine, which is de facto ungoverned, to help the peaceful protesters, as happened in Yugoslavia."
Click to expand...

Russian media is also reporting that Putin is chairing a meeting of the Security Council of Russia after consultations between the Chairman of the State Duma, Chairman of the Federation Council, and Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea.
 
F

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
RileyLewis said:
The best situation for Ukraine would be Russia allowing it to pursue its own destiny. In other words, let it become closer to the EU for trade, but keep allowing trade with Russia. But Russia will not allow this, they insist that Ukraine must be completely dependent on Russia.

The best result for Ukraine (which seems impossible, historically) is for it to be a free European nation, not under the control of Russia or anyone else.
Click to expand...

There is a saying, "Russia remains an empire as long as they have the Ukraine" (very rough translation on my part). Russia will do everything it can to keep the Ukraine on it's leash.
 
T

ThoseDeafMutes

Member
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