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Large protests in Ukraine over failure to sign EU trade deal

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DigiMish

Member
Good to hear that there's some progress being made here. But it's also in a weird spot where I don't know if some protesters will accept anything without the resignation of Yanukovych... which is where things are probably going to get pretty dicey.

When is the legal presidency of Yanukovych going to expire?
 

maxlmus

Neo Member
No, this is not how it is. This is your anecdotal account. And my anecdotal account widely differs from yours. For example, my fiance is from Ukraine (Odessa and then Kiev) and her family still lives there now. She talks to them every morning. And all of them are singing the opposite tune - that the government is self evidently corrupt, that the president needs to go or there won't be a resolution, and that the EU with US assistance needs to seriously step up their game if they want government actors in Ukraine to stop suckling at the tit of Russia. They are also at the moment shocked that Yanukovych would sign an agreement that would release his arch-rival Tymoshenko, who will most likely re-enter politics. They think he's biding his time again -- just like he did in January and early February. So, no, that is not how it is. And I'm not saying my account is the definitive account, either. But broad statements of opinion masquerading as fact are not really conducive. Obviously we will have to wait and see how the impeachment proceedings play out, but I find it very curious that Yanukovych would up and decide to release the former PM. And talking to my fiance and her family, they aren't exactly thrilled with her either. Like most Ukrainians I imagine, they are up to their breaking point with the amount of corruption that takes place -- she told me that for children to even receive grades for middle school usually a bribe is necessary -- and they don't believe swapping out one terrible president for a former jailed PM will help matters.

So what? There is always two sides of the schwartz. These (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector) guys are in charge right now. Do you own math. Look at what is going on across the country. Vocal minority turns Ukraine into fascist state as we speak. I don't think Yanukovych will survive (literally) this night but I don't have any illusions about him, he deserved what's coming. The bad news is that "the people", you know the once who deserve to live better, will end up with the same corrupt government but now ultra nationalist and probably fascist. I hoped 2004-2008 will teach Ukrainians something but once again they choose to be fooled. By the same fucking people.
 
Good to hear that there's some progress being made here. But it's also in a weird spot where I don't know if some protesters will accept anything without the resignation of Yanukovych... which is where things are probably going to get pretty dicey.

When is the legal presidency of Yanukovych going to expire?

January next year.
 
Oh, so this is routine for him in this thread? Thanks for heads up.

Yup. You are not going to get anywhere with him. Probably Russian if I was going to guess. Funniest thing is that he even contradicts himself in his latest post. He calls Right Sector ultra nationalist, but technically it's hard to make that argument. Significant part of them are Russian speaking.
 

alstein

Member
I am worried about it swinging too far in the other direction- that's a common problem with beginning democracies or unstable ones (look at Thailand, and perhaps Venezuela for that)
 

maxlmus

Neo Member
I wouldn't even bother replying to his comment. The sad thing is that he has access to information and chooses to be ignorant.

Yup. You are not going to get anywhere with him. Probably Russian if I was going to guess. Funniest thing is that he even contradicts himself in his latest post. He calls Right Sector ultra nationalist, but technically it's hard to make that argument. Significant part of them are Russian speaking.

No, as I said I'm Ukrainian. And yes, you can talk directly to me.
 

goomba

Banned
everyone should watch that vice video.

when are the next elections in ukraine ? why not just wait for them and vote out the government if they are so bad ?
 

Chariot

Member
everyone should watch that vice video.

when are the next elections in ukraine ? why not just wait for them and vote out the government if they are so bad ?
Yanukovich cheated last time, he would've done it again. Also until the next election the Ukraine would've been back in the fangs of russia if it weren't for th protests.
 
everyone should watch that vice video.

when are the next elections in ukraine ? why not just wait for them and vote out the government if they are so bad ?

They're/were killing people. And weren't allowing basic rights like the right to protest.
 

DigiMish

Member
Yup. You are not going to get anywhere with him. Probably Russian if I was going to guess. Funniest thing is that he even contradicts himself in his latest post. He calls Right Sector ultra nationalist, but technically it's hard to make that argument. Significant part of them are Russian speaking.

What does him being Russian have to do with anything? Even if he was Russian - does that make his opinion less valid?

Also, I don't see how you can NOT call the Right Sector right wing nationalists - they're associated with other right wing groups.
 
CHEEZMO™;101778455 said:
Long video of the murders from Thursday morning (warning) https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qSvj8F_Br4M
Damn. I was preparing for it to be bad but damn. And I left my volume on full so I was fucked up after one second.

I can completely understand why all the protesters/mourners at Maidan want Yanukovych out of his seat of power and facing a European Court.

It also now has me wondering why the fuck an agreement was signed by Maidan Representatives, helped along by European Foreign Ministers and Rubber-stamped by Washington which puts Yanukovych in shared power and untouchable for ten months when the feeling of people at Maidan was clear this morning?

There was gossip about a hardline fringe of suicidal ultras or nazis that wanted to watch the world burn from certain quarters' mouthpieces. Imho, logic dictated that Yanukovych eventually had to go since he was compromised or paid off--that sudden U-turn would've snapped the neck of most folks and he knew too well the people were willing to take any financial hit to get away from Moscow.

And all that is completely irrelevant after yesterday. So why sign an agreement that risks another potential massacre, I mean they've moved it toward a certainty haven't they.

Is it to protect the political process and democratic rights of a man who oversaw the murder of mostly (in a vast sense) unarmed civilians, not to mention all the previous sporadic brutality and stamped all over their political process and democratic rights. Or did they think they could convince the mourning to go home and obey the man who oversaw the murder of friends and family to erm save lives. Many possibilities. And I don't think people are going to go back home yet.

In hindsight and in light of recent events that seems a little strange, no?
 
Seems like the situation has eased up a bit today.

Danish media is reporting that extreme right elements of the protestors are still trying to rile up the people to more riots or something to that effect.
 

Violet_0

Banned
the agreement could have saved 70 lifes had it been signed two days earlier. The opposition leader want a non-violent resolution and no more deaths, so it was in the best of their interest to sign it. Otherwise, they risk starting a civil war with unknown outcome and more victims. Yanukovitch is dead politically and probably already planning to leave for Moscow to escape prosecution.

of course, the hardliners under the the protestors and those who have lost friends and family would never agree with Yanukovitch remaining their president. At this point though more violence is just pointless
 
The head of the regional administration in Kharkiv has suggested that many of the government ministries and offices be moved to Kharkiv from Kyiv since they have been damaged or occupied. Yanukovych arrived there today to meet with advisors, including a Russian delegation.

There have also been rumblings of a separation movement in the east and south (particularly Crimea, which already has strong ties with Russia). I wonder if it's really heading in that direction, or if it's bluster.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
The head of the regional administration in Kharkiv has suggested that many of the government ministries and offices be moved to Kharkiv from Kyiv since they have been damaged or occupied. Yanukovych arrived there today to meet with advisors, including a Russian delegation.

There have also been rumblings of a separation movement in the east and south (particularly Crimea, which already has strong ties with Russia). I wonder if it's really heading in that direction, or if it's bluster.

Never would have thought that Yanukovich and the East would be the one's who would want to separate. Who knows, maybe this way is for the better. The EU taking in half of Ukraine is alot less daunting than the whole of Ukraine. And both halves of the country get what they want.
 
Never would have thought that Yanukovich and the East would be the one's who would want to separate. Who knows, maybe this way is for the better. The EU taking in half of Ukraine is alot less daunting than the whole of Ukraine. And both halves of the country get what they want.

It would weaken both sides, in the end. If it happened (which I think is still very unlikely), the east would most likely be gobbled up by Russia as some sort of protectorate, if not annexed entirely. The western half would be the "true" Ukraine in the world's eyes, perhaps, but they would be shunned by Russia and would suffer devastating economic hardships. Who would bail them out? The EU wants to increase trade, but it doesn't want to just throw money at Ukraine.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
It would weaken both sides, in the end. If it happened (which I think is still very unlikely), the east would most likely be gobbled up by Russia as some sort of protectorate, if not annexed entirely. The western half would be the "true" Ukraine in the world's eyes, perhaps, but they would be shunned by Russia and would suffer devastating economic hardships. Who would bail them out? The EU wants to increase trade, but it doesn't want to just throw money at Ukraine.

Russia has been doing a lot better economically than Ukraine has been, so it wouldn't be all bad for Eastern Ukraine. Western Ukraine and the EU does become a bit more problematic. If Ukraine were to be admitted into the EU it would be the poorest country in the EU by a wide margin, and would probably need a lot of aid. But there is a lot of potential there for growth. The population is fairly well educated, and the country had been experiencing some pretty fast economic growth before the whole financial crisis thing. Perhaps the EU could give low interest development loans to be paid back after some amount of economic growth rather than just straight up bailouts. I'm sure a lot of the ex-communist EU members would be pro helping out the Ukraine. (Balanced out by some others who would be very much against it).
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
So what? There is always two sides of the schwartz. These (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector) guys are in charge right now. Do you own math. Look at what is going on across the country. Vocal minority turns Ukraine into fascist state as we speak. I don't think Yanukovych will survive (literally) this night but I don't have any illusions about him, he deserved what's coming. The bad news is that "the people", you know the once who deserve to live better, will end up with the same corrupt government but now ultra nationalist and probably fascist. I hoped 2004-2008 will teach Ukrainians something but once again they choose to be fooled. By the same fucking people.

If you think a fascist government could hold power in Ukraine after this, you are fooling yourself. It would be very short lived.
 

demolitio

Member
Fascism, Russia and Ukraine
I would recommend this article to people :)

Great read. It puts it a lot more eloquently than what I said this morning when my great aunt randomly asked me what was going on there.

Still makes me sad to see the shit these eastern bloc nations had to suffer through and how it can all go back to shit in an instant. I don't think the people will let that happen without putting up one hell of a fight regardless of the odds because we're not too far removed from the days of the oppressive CCCP and a lot of the symbolism and propaganda from all sides are coming back into view. There's so many things going on at once that it's easy to get confused and that article did a good job of mentioning all the variables and sides at play right now in one giant chess game that's sad to watch.

At least my great aunt thought that Putin looked like a Bond villain too. Coolest elderly woman ever considering she plays video games too. :D
 
Christopher MillerVerified account ‏@ChristopherJM

#EuroMaidan, protesters control #Kyiv's govt quarter this morning. Authorities seem to have fled. No Interior troops, police in sight.

Christopher Miller ‏@ChristopherJM

Oleh Liashko, Radical Party: President left Ukraine. Now parliament must oust him because he's unable to fulfill his presidential role.

Where is Yanukovych?
 
What does him being Russian have to do with anything? Even if he was Russian - does that make his opinion less valid?

Also, I don't see how you can NOT call the Right Sector right wing nationalists - they're associated with other right wing groups.
A lot. The fact that you can be Ukrainian and so ignorant is just too depressong for me to accept...
 

DigiMish

Member
A lot. The fact that you can be Ukrainian and so ignorant is just too depressong for me to accept...

He simply told his side of the story. Another person said it was an anecdote and told his own, which happened to contradict it. So 2 different people with 2 opinions on the situation :)
 

Kastrioti

Persecution Complex
The article Kabouter linked introduced me to who the "founder/ideologue" of the whole Eurasian Union concept, Aleksandr Dugin.

A brief snippet of the long article:

The Eurasian ideology draws an entirely different lesson from the twentieth century. Founded around 2001 by the Russian political scientist Aleksandr Dugin, it proposes the realization of National Bolshevism. Rather than rejecting totalitarian ideologies, Eurasianism calls upon politicians of the twenty-first century to draw what is useful from both fascism and Stalinism. Dugin’s major work, The Foundations of Geopolitics, published in 1997, follows closely the ideas of Carl Schmitt, the leading Nazi political theorist. Eurasianism is not only the ideological source of the Eurasian Union, it is also the creed of a number of people in the Putin administration, and the moving force of a rather active far-right Russian youth movement. For years Dugin has openly supported the division and colonization of Ukraine.

I never heard of Aleksandr Dugin (but I was aware of the upcoming Eurasian Union), and a quick Wikipedia search had some very interesting quotes on his Wiki page:

He has criticized the "Euro-Atlantic" involvement in the 2004 Ukrainian presidential election as a scheme to create a "cordon sanitaire" around Russia, much like the French and British attempt post-World War I.

Before war broke out between Russia and Georgia in 2008, Dugin visited South Ossetia and predicted, "Our troops will occupy the Georgian capital Tbilisi, the entire country, and perhaps even Ukraine and the Crimean Peninsula, which is historically part of Russia, anyway." Afterwards he said Russia should "not stop at liberating South Ossetia but should move further," and "we have to do something similar in Ukraine."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin

That quote is from 2008. I hope I'm wrong, but I think we're going to be seeing a long conflict, potential civil war that will have global ramifications.
 
No security outside the presidential building.

BhEV9OYIIAA1AB6.jpg
 
He simply told his side of the story. Another person said it was an anecdote and told his own, which happened to contradict it. So 2 different people with 2 opinions on the situation :)
No. It's not just side of a story. You can disagree with protestors, but the way the president handled the situation is not excusable! He could have easily stopped it 3 months ago by aresting at least few people responsible for beatings of the students.
 

DigiMish

Member
No. It's not just side of a story. You can disagree with protestors, but the way the president handled the situation is not excusable! He could have easily stopped it 3 months ago by aresting at least few people responsible for beatings of the students.

I still don't agree with you regarding his opinion. However, there's no doubt that the president could have handles this a million times better. The thing that I'm disappointed with the most is how long he waited until doing something - this compromise should have been proposed a month ago before both sides were so damn tense. Pretty much anything to not let violence happen is a win in my book.
 
I still don't agree with you regarding his opinion. However, there's no doubt that the president could have handles this a million times better. The thing that I'm disappointed with the most is how long he waited until doing something - this compromise should have been proposed a month ago before both sides were so damn tense. Pretty much anything to not let violence happen is a win in my book.
If he didn't go away (and it looks like he ran away already) there would be another protest in few years and it's possible that more people would have died. His residence in Kiev os open now. Watch out for insane pictures from that.
 
So will the 15 billion $ deal made with Russia before be cancelled now? IIRC Ukraine has some serious problems with the economy and honestly I'm not confident the EU can do much to really help bail them out like Russia does. I hope things will get better for them in the future. Not that freedom should be sold out but going against Russia might be a very difficult road for them indeed. Not to even talk about the gas prices that apparently were a very good deal for Ukraine.
 

Kinan

Member
Thank you God. Now is everything in our hands, we shouldn't lose this chance. Great day for Ukraine and for Europe as a whole.
 
Agreed!

You think there is a chance that Timoschenko becomes president again?

She never was a president. Even if she becomes a president a lot of her powers will be taken away (2004 constitution). But she will make sure to take a revenge. Which is good and bad at the same time. Ukrainian government needs major restructuring...
 

alstein

Member
She never was a president. Even if she becomes a president a lot of her powers will be taken away (2004 constitution). But she will make sure to take a revenge. Which is good and bad at the same time. Ukrainian government needs major restructuring...

Hopefully she took lessons from Mandela- revenge would be the worst course Ukraine could take, for many reasons.
 
Hopefully she took lessons from Mandela- revenge would be the worst course Ukraine could take, for many reasons.

She's not a good person... Her surrounding will be pretty reasonable. Many of them will remember forever the fact that 100 people have died. There's a good chance that things will work out. Plus there are lessons from 2005.
 

Oriel

Member
Megaton!

Yan flees Kiev, sets up new base in east of country, provisional Russian speaking parliament convenes, while Crimea Autonomous Region requests assistance from the Russian Army. People's militia's now in control of Kiev with units taking over guarding the parliament building from police.

698d5a6c-0bb8-4387-ad0b-50b98cf7e3c3-620x372.jpeg
 

Violet_0

Banned
I'd put more trust in Klitschko than Timoschenko. At least I know he's a decent guy. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to be all that popular among the protestors
 

Oriel

Member
She never was a president. Even if she becomes a president a lot of her powers will be taken away (2004 constitution). But she will make sure to take a revenge. Which is good and bad at the same time. Ukrainian government needs major restructuring...

Ukraine will likely become a parliamentary republic on the lines of many European countries, where the President is a mere figurehead and the PM wields most executive authority. For Ukraine this will allow for a more stable government as parliament will no longer be shut out of the decision making process but rather an integral part.
 

Enkidu

Member
So will the 15 billion $ deal made with Russia before be cancelled now? IIRC Ukraine has some serious problems with the economy and honestly I'm not confident the EU can do much to really help bail them out like Russia does. I hope things will get better for them in the future. Not that freedom should be sold out but going against Russia might be a very difficult road for them indeed. Not to even talk about the gas prices that apparently were a very good deal for Ukraine.
Back in, I think December, when the Russian deal was announced EU insiders were apparently claiming that the EU had a matching $20 billion deal to offer (the gas deal was worth around an extra $5 billion). It would probably go through the IMF and would be far less generous than the Russian one, although perhaps less harsh than the IMF usually does. Ukraine needs a harsher deal though, the status quo isn't working (as we have clearly seen these last few months) so requiring reform is probably for the better even if it will hurt in the short term.
 

alstein

Member
She's not a good person... Her surrounding will be pretty reasonable. Many of them will remember forever the fact that 100 people have died. There's a good chance that things will work out. Plus there are lessons from 2005.

It's pretty much a lock the West will fawn over her given that she was/is viewed as a political prisoner who was subjected to harsh treatment- that plays well over here.

Klitschko is probably the one I'd trust the most right now though.
 
It's pretty much a lock the West will fawn over her given that she was/is viewed as a political prisoner who was subjected to harsh treatment- that plays well over here.

Klitschko is probably the one I'd trust the most right now though.

Klitschko is trustworthy, but he's not very smart. He does have good surrounding... That's probably the best option.
 

Simplet

Member
Megaton!

Yan flees Kiev, sets up new base in east of country, provisional Russian speaking parliament convenes, while Crimea Autonomous Region requests assistance from the Russian Army. People's militia's now in control of Kiev with units taking over guarding the parliament building from police.

Where did you read this?
 

Oriel

Member
Where did you read this?

A tweet by a Time magazine correspondent in the Crimea. I know tweets aren't the most authoritative but Crimea Region has form in declaring independence from Ukraine:

I'm in Crimea now, locals talking about a run on the banks, no cash in ATMs, some say they'd welcome Russian annexation

— Simon Shuster (@shustry) February 22, 2014

Russia appears to be preparing a grab for parts of Ukraine. Senior Moscow delegates in Kharkiv. Crimea asking for "protection" from Rus army

— Simon Shuster (@shustry) February 22, 2014

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...l-live-updates#block-530895d7e4b04f22a42ea021
 
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