Mutanthands
Member
Francine's Pleasant Polio
Maggie's Magnificent Meningitis
Francine's Pleasant Polio
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1466938897/?tag=neogaf0e-20
In case it wasn't obvious, this book is told as a children's tale which explains that measles are not that bad, that getting measles is a natural and (in some ways) healthy part of growing up, and it is certainly better than getting a vaccine.
*absolutely disgusting*
Guys i don't know.
I personally know the father of a kid who started regressing to being an autistic after vaccines and another person in a similar situation.
His 18 months old kid felt bad the very same night, and the day after that, and the night after that etc, and things got progressively worse.
He progressively stopped smiling, talking and responding to people calling his name.
He would just cry and scream all the time.
He was able to use a spoon to eat before, and in a few weeks he couldn't even find his own mouth.
Mind you, starting THAT day's night.
Not in that period, in the following weeks or months or 'around the same time'
It started that very same night. Coincidence, maybe. Maybe not.
This is not something i heard of, this is something I saw with my eyes.
Now, i understand that a lot of these stories sound like they were made up or exaggerated by conspiracy nutjobs, but i've read and spoken with a lot of people (this includes doctors) and heard too many stories from sources i consider reliable to rule out things can be related. Doctors themselves can't.
It's easy to call fools those parents who refuse to have their kids vaccinated but have you seen a kid regress from lively and happy to someone who is not able to communicate anymore and just cries and screams in pain all the time, with doctors you've spoken to admitting they don't know much about autism and can't rule out the vaccine might have been the cause for sure ?
What would you do with your own kids, knowing and having witnessed that ?
Stop calling those parents fools.
They probably happened to see or hear stories that made them afraid and made it very hard to take a decision in either direction.
Like any other type of medicine/drugs, there are side affects that affect a small number of people. Nothing is 100% effective, and nothing is 100% safe. But you shouldn't go through life based on these minor probabilities and ignore all medicine and medical procedures as a result. You have a higher chance getting into a car accident than you do having a negative result from side effects. Would you stop driving?
Like any other type of medicine/drugs, there are side affects that affect a small number of people. Nothing is 100% effective, and nothing is 100% safe. But you shouldn't go through life based on these minor probabilities and ignore all medicine and medical procedures as a result. You have a higher chance getting into a car accident than you do having a negative result from side effects. Would you stop driving?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1466938897/?tag=neogaf0e-20
In case it wasn't obvious, this book is told as a children's tale which explains that measles are not that bad, that getting measles is a natural and (in some ways) healthy part of growing up, and it is certainly better than getting a vaccine.
Guys i don't know.
I personally know the father of a kid who started regressing to being an autistic after vaccines and another person in a similar situation.
His 18 months old kid felt bad the very same night, and the day after that, and the night after that etc, and things got progressively worse.
He progressively stopped smiling, talking and responding to people calling his name.
He would just cry and scream all the time.
He was able to use a spoon to eat before, and in a few weeks he couldn't even find his own mouth.
Mind you, starting THAT day's night.
Not in that period, in the following weeks or months or 'around the same time'
It started that very same night. Coincidence, maybe. Maybe not.
This is not something i heard of, this is something I saw with my eyes.
Now, i understand that a lot of these stories sound like they were made up or exaggerated by conspiracy nutjobs, but i've read and spoken with a lot of people (this includes doctors) and heard too many stories from sources i consider reliable to rule out things can be related. Doctors themselves can't.
It's easy to call fools those parents who refuse to have their kids vaccinated but have you seen a kid regress from lively and happy to someone who is not able to communicate anymore and just cries and screams in pain all the time, with doctors you've spoken to admitting they don't know much about autism and can't rule out the vaccine might have been the cause for sure ?
What would you do with your own kids, knowing and having witnessed that ?
Stop calling those parents fools.
They probably happened to see or hear stories that made them afraid and made it very hard to take a decision in either direction.
It's not even a side effect, there is no legitimate evidence that there is any link to vaccines and autism, beyond some random anecdotes. But the negative (and potentially fatal) side effects of measles, mumps and rubella are proven
There are side effects to vaccines, autism is just not a side effect. That has been shown to be the case definitively.
Guys i don't know.
I personally know the father of a kid who started regressing to being an autistic after vaccines and another person in a similar situation.
His 18 months old kid felt bad the very same night, and the day after that, and the night after that etc, and things got progressively worse.
He progressively stopped smiling, talking and responding to people calling his name.
He would just cry and scream all the time.
He was able to use a spoon to eat before, and in a few weeks he couldn't even find his own mouth.
Mind you, starting THAT day's night.
Not in that period, in the following weeks or months or 'around the same time'
It started that very same night. Coincidence, maybe. Maybe not.
This is not something i heard of, this is something I saw with my eyes.
Now, i understand that a lot of these stories sound like they were made up or exaggerated by conspiracy nutjobs, but i've read and spoken with a lot of people (this includes doctors) and heard too many stories from sources i consider reliable to rule out things can be related. Doctors themselves can't.
It's easy to call fools those parents who refuse to have their kids vaccinated but have you seen a kid regress from lively and happy to someone who is not able to communicate anymore and just cries and screams in pain all the time, with doctors you've spoken to admitting they don't know much about autism and can't rule out the vaccine might have been the cause for sure ?
What would you do with your own kids, knowing and having witnessed that ?
Stop calling those parents fools.
They probably happened to see or hear stories that made them afraid and made it very hard to take a decision in either direction.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply vaccines caused autism because so far everything shows otherwise.
I was just jumping on the notion that, well this happened to someone I know, therefore, they don't seem safe, is something that needs to be squashed. There is always a risk to taking anything, and that needs to be understood rather than being told there is a risk and that's a reason not to do it when there is a risk to everything.
Like any other type of medicine/drugs, there are side affects that affect a small number of people. Nothing is 100% effective, and nothing is 100% safe. But you shouldn't go through life based on these minor probabilities and ignore all medicine and medical procedures as a result.
1) If the kid was 18mo it could not have been the first time he's taken immunization shots. My daughter's had hers at 2mos, and we're getting more next week for her 4month shots. And so on. 2) Sorry that your kids turned autistic, 3) it has nothing to do with the shots and you're not doing anyone favors by pretending it did, or supporting an interest group that has 4) monetary interests in telling people that's what happened.
If the vaccine possibly made them autistic then by that same logic if they ever encountered those diseases in the wild then they probably would've become autistic from exposure to them, too.
It's not even a side effect, there is no legitimate evidence that there is any link to vaccines and autism, beyond some random anecdotes. But the negative (and potentially fatal) side effects of measles, mumps and rubella are proven
I definitely remember getting hugged in chicken pox groups at a young age. The vaccine wasn't available in the US back then, so there you go. I'm sure the shingles will suck ass later in life, but severe pain can be overcome, hopefully. Adult chicken pox, however, is no joke. Serious business, that.
See why all that "freedom" nonsense is overplayed? Less developed countries have OBLIGATORY vaccine programs, but no, America has to kill themselves for their "freedom". SMH.
I definitely remember getting hugged in chicken pox groups at a young age. The vaccine wasn't available in the US back then, so there you go. I'm sure the shingles will suck ass later in life, but severe pain can be overcome, hopefully. Adult chicken pox, however, is no joke. Serious business, that.
there's no evidence because there's no research either way.
But there's coincidences , there are cases of infant mortality rates dropping in countries after certain vaccines were made non obligatory etc.
Noting that in 2009 the U.S. ranked 34th in infant mortality, they looked up the infant mortality rates from the U.S. and all the nations that have lower infant mortality rates than the U.S. and then compared them to the number of vaccine doses each nation require. They then graphed the infant mortality rate as a function of vaccine dose.
I also note that the authors here seem to have pulled the same trick that J.B. Handley and crew like to pull when trying to convince people that U.S. infants are “overvaccinated” by artificially pumping up the apparent number of vaccine doses by counting multivalent vaccines as more than one. For instance, the MMR and DTaP are counted as three each because each vaccine is trivalent; i.e., containing vaccines against three different diseases.
Having used dubious and error-ridden methods for counting the required vaccines and correlated those numbers to infant mortality rates, the authors then move on. After pointing out that the U.S. has a poor infant mortality rate (IMR) relative to its wealth and what it spends on health care, the authors state:
There are many factors that affect the IMR of any given country. For example, premature births in the United States have increased by more than 20% between 1990 and 2006. Preterm babies have a higher risk of complications that could lead to death within the first year of life.6 However, this does not fully explain why the United States has seen little improvement in its IMR since 2000.7
Nations differ in their immunization requirements for infants aged less than 1 year. In 2009, five of the 34 nations with the best IMRs required 12 vaccine doses, the least amount, while the United States required 26 vaccine doses, the most of any nation. To explore the correlation between vaccine doses that nations routinely give to their infants and their infant mortality rates, a linear regression analysis was performed.
This is known as starting with a reasonable observation and then switching to a hypothesis with little or no scientific justification, in essence pulling it out of thin air. The second question I would have is: Why a linear relationship? No justification is given for performing a linear regression analysis. My third question would be: Why this data set?
Actually, this third question is probably the most interesting of all. Miller and Goldman only looked at one year’s data. There are many years worth of data available; if such a relationship between IMR and vaccine doses is real, it will be robust, showing up in multiple analyses from multiple years’ data. Moreover, the authors took great pains to look at only the United States and the 33 nations with better infant mortality rates than the U.S. There is no statistical rationale for doing this, nor is there a scientific rationale. Again, if this is a true correlation, it will be robust enough to show up in comparisons of more nations than just the U.S. and nations with more favorable infant mortality rates. Basically, the choice of data analyzed leaves a strong suspicion of cherry picking. Were I reviewing this paper, I would insist on the use of one or two other data sets. For example, I would ask for different years and/or perhaps the use of the rankings by the United Nations Population Division, which can be found in the Wikipedia entry containing the list of countries by infant mortality rate. And I would insist on doing the analysis so that it includes several nations with worse IMRs than the U.S. Indeed, since the focal point of the analysis seems to be the U.S., which, according to Miller and Goldman, requires more vaccine doses than any other nation, then it would make sense to look at the 33 nations with worse IMRs than the U.S.
Be that as it may, I looked at the data myself and played around with it One thing I noticed immediately is that the authors removed four nations, Andorra, Liechenstein, Monaco, and San Marino, the justification being that because they are all so small, each nation only recorded less than five infant deaths. Coincidentally, or not, when all the data are used, the r2=.426, whereas when those four nations are excluded, r2 increases to 0.494, meaning that the goodness of fit improved. Even so, it’s not that fantastic, certainly not enough to be particularly convincing as a linear relationship. More dubiously, for some reason the authors, not content with an weak and not particularly convincing linear relationship in the raw data, decided to do a little creative data manipulation and divide the nations into five groups based on number of vaccine doses, take the means of each of these groups, and then regraph the data. Not surprisingly, the data look a lot cleaner, which was no doubt why this was done, as it was a completely extraneous analysis. As a rule of thumb, this sort of analysis will almost always produce a much nicer-looking linear graph, as opposed to the “star chart” in Figure 1. Usually, this sort of data massaging is done when a raw scatterplot doesn’t produce the desired relationship.
Finally, it’s important to remember that IMRs are very difficult to compare across nations. In fact, the source I most like to cite to illustrate this is, believe it or not, an article by Bernadine Healy, the former director of the NIH who has over the last three or four years flirted with the anti-vaccine movement:
First, it’s shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don’t reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country.
Infant mortality in developed countries is not about healthy babies dying of treatable conditions as in the past. Most of the infants we lose today are born critically ill, and 40 percent die within the first day of life. The major causes are low birth weight and prematurity, and congenital malformations. As Nicholas Eberstadt, a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, points out, Norway, which has one of the lowest infant mortality rates, shows no better infant survival than the United States when you factor in weight at birth.
1) not the first, but measles vaccine contains the highest quantity of toxic elements and is generally the one thought to be responsible for the worst side effects.
3) NO ONE, no doctor i spoke to was willing to confirm what happened had nothing to do with the shots. They wouldn't confirm or deny either way.
There are side effects to vaccines, autism is just not a side effect. That has been shown to be the case definitively.
there's no evidence because there's no research either way.
But there's coincidences , there are cases of infant mortality rates dropping in countries after certain vaccines were made non obligatory etc.
1) not the first, but measles vaccine contains the highest quantity of toxic elements and is generally the one thought to be responsible for the worst side effects.
2) not mine. A close friend's.
3) NO ONE, no doctor i spoke to was willing to confirm what happened had nothing to do with the shots. They wouldn't confirm or deny either way.
4) what monetary interest ? honest question.
Stop calling those parents fools.
Are you serious about #4? The original, thoroughly disproven 'vaccine causes autism' study was done by a doctor who was compensated in the order of ~$1 million (or quids or whatnot) to make the case for some lawsuit that wanted this to be fact.
there's no evidence because there's no research either way.
But there's coincidences , there are cases of infant mortality rates dropping in countries after certain vaccines were made non obligatory etc.
1) not the first, but measles vaccine contains the highest quantity of toxic elements and is generally the one thought to be responsible for the worst side effects.
Do MMR vaccines contain thimerosal?
No, measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccines do not and never did contain thimerosal. Varicella (chickenpox), inactivated polio (IPV), and pneumococcal conjugate vaccines have also never contained thimerosal.
No, there is no evidence of vaccines causing autism. You can't just say "there is no evidence either way". No study has shown any link whatsoever. That means all evidence points to no link.
"a connection hasn't been confirmed" is not enough when it's your son or daughter we're talking about.
No study has shown there is a connection.
No study has proven there isn't a connection.
"a connection hasn't been confirmed" is not enough when it's your son or daughter we're talking about.
Quite, but frankly vaccines are going to be the least of their worries growing up in a household with reading comprehension and critical analysis this poor.
No study has shown there is a connection.
No study has proven there isn't a connection.
"a connection hasn't been confirmed" is not enough when it's your son or daughter we're talking about.
Oh and btw, while I'm not completely convinced vaccines are 100% safe, I had my daughter receive all the recommended ones, in case anyone was wondering.
I just can't condemn those parents who were terrified by the stories they were told.
I can, because like you, no matter how much evidence you give them they will still rely on bullshit false anecdotes, a fundamental misunderstanding of science and healthcare, and are putting their children at risk because they are too stupid and self centred to do the research themselves.
No one has proven that I am Batman. No one has proven that I'm not Batman.
No one has proven that I am Batman. No one has proven that I'm not Batman.
Guys i don't know.
I personally know the father of a kid who started regressing to being an autistic after vaccines and another person in a similar situation.
His 18 months old kid felt bad the very same night, and the day after that, and the night after that etc, and things got progressively worse.
He progressively stopped smiling, talking and responding to people calling his name.
He would just cry and scream all the time.
He was able to use a spoon to eat before, and in a few weeks he couldn't even find his own mouth.
Mind you, starting THAT day's night.
Not in that period, in the following weeks or months or 'around the same time'
It started that very same night. Coincidence, maybe. Maybe not.
This is not something i heard of, this is something I saw with my eyes.
Now, i understand that a lot of these stories sound like they were made up or exaggerated by conspiracy nutjobs, but i've read and spoken with a lot of people (this includes doctors) and heard too many stories from sources i consider reliable to rule out things can be related. Doctors themselves can't.
It's easy to call fools those parents who refuse to have their kids vaccinated but have you seen a kid regress from lively and happy to someone who is not able to communicate anymore and just cries and screams in pain all the time, with doctors you've spoken to admitting they don't know much about autism and can't rule out the vaccine might have been the cause for sure ?
What would you do with your own kids, knowing and having witnessed that ?
Stop calling those parents fools.
They probably happened to see or hear stories that made them afraid and made it very hard to take a decision in either direction.
No study has proven there isn't a connection.
Oh man.
I'm really willing to have a civil discussion but you keep talking of "anecdotal evidence bullcrap" when I told you about my friend's son.
A kid that you personally saw regressing to that stage, followed by another, and more you read about will inevitably strike you as something more than anecdotal.
It may be, but I wouldn't have thought it would be hard for people to understand that witnessing that yourself would leave a scar you'll have a hard time brushing off as a coincidence.
I liked the batman jokes.
But I could make similar ones saying that while 3 of the 100 guys I saw diving in the ocean never came back, science has never proven the ocean is what killed them, so I will lightheartedly dive myself thinking those 3 probably died of old age or something.
Why can't you allow me to be just a little afraid of diving ?
Because you are promoting horrible decisions that effects everyone around you, because of a false fear.Oh man.
I'm really willing to have a civil discussion but you keep talking of "anecdotal evidence bullcrap" when I told you about my friend's son.
A kid that you personally saw regressing to that stage, followed by another, and more you read about will inevitably strike you as something more than anecdotal.
It may be, but I wouldn't have thought it would be hard for people to understand that witnessing that yourself would leave a scar you'll have a hard time brushing off as a coincidence.
I liked the batman jokes.
But I could make similar ones saying that while 3 of the 100 guys I saw diving in the ocean never came back, science has never proven the ocean is what killed them, so I will lightheartedly dive myself thinking those 3 probably died of old age or something.
Why can't you allow me to be just a little afraid of diving ?
Oh man.
I'm really willing to have a civil discussion but you keep talking of "anecdotal evidence bullcrap" when I told you about my friend's son.
A kid that you personally saw regressing to that stage, followed by another, and more you read about will inevitably strike you as something more than anecdotal.
It may be, but I wouldn't have thought it would be hard for people to understand that witnessing that yourself would leave a scar you'll have a hard time brushing off as a coincidence.
I liked the batman jokes.
But I could make similar ones saying that while 3 of the 100 guys I saw diving in the ocean never came back, science has never proven the ocean is what killed them, so I will lightheartedly dive myself thinking those 3 probably died of old age or something.
Why can't you allow me to be just a little afraid of diving ?
@speculawyer I know that, and I know autism ruins families and they will need someone or something to point their finger at.
Still. I understand being scared. Autism is scarier than measles, maybe it shouldn't be, but there's not a lot you can do to change people's perception.
Guys i don't know.
I personally know the father of a kid who started regressing to being an autistic after vaccines and another person in a similar situation.
His 18 months old kid felt bad the very same night, and the day after that, and the night after that etc, and things got progressively worse.
He progressively stopped smiling, talking and responding to people calling his name.
He would just cry and scream all the time.
He was able to use a spoon to eat before, and in a few weeks he couldn't even find his own mouth.
Mind you, starting THAT day's night.
Not in that period, in the following weeks or months or 'around the same time'
It started that very same night. Coincidence, maybe. Maybe not.
This is not something i heard of, this is something I saw with my eyes.
Now, i understand that a lot of these stories sound like they were made up or exaggerated by conspiracy nutjobs, but i've read and spoken with a lot of people (this includes doctors) and heard too many stories from sources i consider reliable to rule out things can be related. Doctors themselves can't.
It's easy to call fools those parents who refuse to have their kids vaccinated but have you seen a kid regress from lively and happy to someone who is not able to communicate anymore and just cries and screams in pain all the time, with doctors you've spoken to admitting they don't know much about autism and can't rule out the vaccine might have been the cause for sure ?
What would you do with your own kids, knowing and having witnessed that ?
Stop calling those parents fools.
They probably happened to see or hear stories that made them afraid and made it very hard to take a decision in either direction.
I definitely remember getting hugged in chicken pox groups at a young age. The vaccine wasn't available in the US back then, so there you go. I'm sure the shingles will suck ass later in life, but severe pain can be overcome, hopefully. Adult chicken pox, however, is no joke. Serious business, that.
WHAT THE FLYING FUCK? How is that possible?
That's human fallibility and I do my best to check myself for that kind of thinking. Of course I can understand how it's too much for some people due to the power of the emotional factors in play, but you can't let a personal experience tear you away from the way we otherwise understand the world to work.
"Disappearing while diving = drowning" is a very probable scenario that's consistent with the way we understand water, the human body, and the act of diving to work. Even if those divers technically just missing and you couldn't conclusively prove that they drowned, it's a reasonable prediction to make that doesn't require any new assumptions to be true.
Claiming that vaccines cause autism is more in line with me claiming to be Batman. Confirming it would take a bevy of new evidence, most of which is pretty far-fetched stuff.
No wonder I had never heard of it until recently. I was too old for this to have been useful for me.The chicken pox vaccine is relatively new.
It wasn't available in the US until 1995. Japan was one of the first countries that made it available and that was in 1988.
People keep saying anecdotal evidence because what you describe is the very definition of anecdotal evidence.